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Full text of "The Queen vs. Louis Riel, accused and convicted of the crime of high treason [microform] : report of trial at Regina.-Appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench, Manitoba.-Appeal to the Privy Council, England.-Petition for medical examination of the convict.-List of petitions for commutation of sentence, Ottawa"

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THE    QXJKEN   •  t^ 
LOUIS  RIEL, 


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ACCUSED    AND    CONVICTED    OF    THE    CRIME    OF   EIGE    TREASON. 

.  .  i  ■. 


REPORT 


TRIAL  A'P  HEGINA.-^I'I'KAL  TO  TIIK  COIKT  OF  QIEKN'S  BENCH,  MANITOBA. 
— APFKAL  TO  THK  PRIVY  COl'NCIh,  KXCil.ANU.  PETITIOX  FOR  MEUIOAI, 
EXAMINATION  OF  THE  CONVICT.  -LIST  OF  PETITIONS  FOR  CO.MMITA- 
TION  OF  SENTENCK,  OTTAWA.  - 


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OTTAWA  : 
PRINTED  BY  THE  QUEEN'S  PRINTER. 

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CAMWA         1 

North- Wist  Tcrritoiio.  j 


STIPENDIARY  MAGISTRATE'S  COURT. 


THK    i,>rEEN' 


horiS    lUKL 


Chimjiil  nil  III!  Iiiilirliiiinf  lot-  niijli  Tri^naoii, 

Hililil-  till   Xurtli    U^rif  Tiriilui-iin  Arl,  I- 


liK(;lXA,   I'Otli  July,   KSSo. 


Till-  »''(>uit  iisKfiiiKltd  iit   11   A.-M. 


-Ml!.  •hsTlci:  UicilAHDSDN.  -I  liiivc  to  aiiiioiiiKr  tli;i(  Mr.  Heiirv  LcJ.-uue  \vill  lie 
the  A>sc)i-iiitc  Justice  t'di-  the  iiiiproiuliiiii;  triiii  ;•  Mi-.  l)i\ie  Watson,  clerk;  Wallace. 
IMacleaii,  .1.  S.  .Monahaii,  James  T.  Parkcs  and    V.  M.  Maivenu,   otticial   leporters. 

-Mr.  Slieritl',  will  you  rt.ani  the  inecept. 

Piecept  lianilccl  liy  tlie  Sheriir  to  tile  cleik  who  reads  the  return   and   calls   tlif   list 
of  Jurors.  ''  ,  ' 

His  HoNdi!  .Mi:.  Jistick  llicii.MiDSQX. — The  clerk  will  ojieu  the  Court. 
Court  opened  liv  the  clerk.  •. 

is;  in  the  prisoner. 


the 


Mr.  JrsTiCK  11kii.\rd.sox. — Mr.  Sheriti',  ^vill  you  In 
-Prisoner  liroUirht  in  and  placed  in  the  dock;         ^  ' 

Mil.  JlsTlci;  lllcilAlilisox.      Louis    Uiel,   hav*'  you   lieen   furnished  \vitli 

irii  ! 


a   copy  of-. 


cliar;;e,  of  the  panel  of  jurors,  of  the  list  of  witnesses  for  the  prosecution  \ 
PiilsoNKit.      Yes,  your  honor. 

Mh.  J usTUK  Rlcii.vKiJSOX.- Arraign  the  jirisoner. 
The  clerk  rertds  the  indictment,  as  follows  : —  .        / 

Sixth  day  of  July,  iii-tht^  year  of  Our  Lord  ISSo,  at  the  Town  of  Regiiia,  in  the 
North-West  Territories.  \        ^ 

Before  me,  llui,'li  Piichanlson,  one  of  the  Stipeiuliary  Magistrate?!  of  ihe  North-West 
Territories,  exercising;  Criminal  Jurisdiction  under  the  provisions  oVthe  North- West 
Act,  J  SMO.  .  ^ 

Loris  Kiel,  you  stand  charged  on  oath  before  me  as  follows  : —  'I 

'•The  Hiformation  and  complaint  of  Alexander  David  Stewart,  of  'the  City  of 
Hamilton,  in  the  Province  of  Ontario,  in  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  Chief  of  Police,  taken 
the  sixth  day  of  July,  in  the  year  of  Our  Lortl  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and.  eigluv- 
live,  before  the  undersigned,  one  gf  Her  Majesty's  Stipendiary  Magistrates,  in  and  for 
the  said  North- West  Territories  of  Canada,  who  saith  :^  .,    • 

••  1.  That  Louis  Riel  being  a  suljject  of  Our  Lady  the  Queen,  not  regarding  the 
duty  of  his  aJlegiance,  nor  having  the  fear  of  God  in  his  heart,  but  being  moved  and 
seduced  by  the  instigation  of  the  Devil,  as  a  false  traitor  against  our  said  Lady  the 
Queen,  and  wholly  withdrawing  the  allegiance,  tidelity  and  obedience  which  every  true 
and  faithful  subject  of  our  said   Lady  the  Queen,  should  and   of  right  ought  to  b«ar 


t(Nsiirrlh  our  s:ii(l    Ladv  tho  Qnwii,  in  tlic  year  iifoifsiiifl,  on  the  twciity-sixtli  day  of 

!Shiri-^.  tojiftlicr   witli  divei-.s  other  falsf    traitors  to   the  .said  Alexainh'r    David  Stewart, 

unknown,  iirnied  and  airayed  in  a  warlike  manner,  tliat  is  to  say,  with    guns,    rities,    |>is- 

'  tols,  hayoiiets  and  other  weapons,    lieins   fiien   unlawt'idly,    maliciously  and    traitorously 

a.ssemhhid  and  j;athered  toijetlier  a;;ainst  our  said  Lady  the  Queen,  at  the  loeality  known 

as  ]Juek  Lake,  in  the  said  Xortli-West  Terr-itories  of  Canada,  and  within  this  Healni,  and 

did  tlien  malieiously  and  traitortiu^ly  attemiit  and  endeavour   liv  foiee    and    arms  to  suli- 

veit  anil  clestroy  the  Constitution  and   tiovernment  of  this  lleaini  as  liy  law  estaMished, 

and   di>]>rive   and    de])ose-our  said  Lady  the   (^ueen  of  and   froin   the  style,   jionour  and 

"kin;ily  name  i><*  t lie  I miH.'iial  Crown  of  this  Itealin,   in    contempt   of   our  said    Lady   the 

.<^ueen  and  her  laws,  to  the  e\il  examjil.e  of  all  r)tliers  in  the  like  case  olt'endini;,  contrary 

to  the  (huy  of  the  allegiance  f)f  him  the  said  Louis  ]vi<d,  against  th<'  form  of   the  statute 

in  such  case  made  and  provided,  and  against  the  [leace  of  our  said   Lady  the  (t^ueen,    her 

Crown  and  <lignity.  ••.      - 

f  '    ^'2.      And  the  sai<l    Alexander   I)a\id   Stewart    further  saith  :    That  the  said  L(>uis 

Kiel,  being  a  suhject   of  our  Lady, the  Queen,  not   regardin.!.'  the  duty  of  liis  allegiafice, 

«ioi'  having  the  fear  of  <iod  in  his  iieart,  liut  lieing  mo\ed  and  seduced   hy  the  instigation 

of  the  Devil  as  a  false' traitor  against  our  said  Lady  the  Queen  anfl  wholly  witlidniwing 

the  allegiance,  fidelity  and  ohedience  which  fnery  true  and   faitliful   suhji-ct   of  our  .said 

'Lady  the  Queen  should  and  of  right  ought  to  liear  towartls  our   said  Lady  the  Queen,  on 

tlie  twenty-fourth  day  of  Apiil   in  the  year  aforesaid,  together  with  other  divers  false 

traitors  to  the  said  Alexander  David  Stewart  unknown,  armeil  and  arrayed  in  a  warlike 

manner,  tlwt  is  to  say,  with  guns,  ritieii,  jiistols,  liayonets  and  otiier  weapons  lieing  then 

unlawfully,  maliciously  and   traitorously  assemliled  and   gath*eii-d   together'- against .  our 

•said  r^uly  the  (,)ueen,  niost  wickedly,  maliciously  and-traitorous|y  did  lc\y  and  make'war 

against   riur   said    L;nlv    the  Queen,   at   the.  locality   kno«n   as    Fish    ('reck,  in   the   said 

jNorth-W'est  Jerritoiies  of  Canada,  and  within  this  Ueidm,  and  diTI  then  maHciou:^ly  and 

traitorousfV   attemjit   and   endeavoi-  hy    force  and    ai-ms    to    suliver'.    and    destroy    the 

Constitution  and     Cciveinment    nf    this    I'calm    as  liy   law   estalilishcd.  and  deprive    and 

<k'p6se  our   said    Jjidy  the   Queen  of  and  from   the  style,  honour  and   kingly   name   of  ' 

-  tlic    Luperial    Crovyn    iif  this    Itealm,    in    contemiit    of  mn-   said     Lady    the   <,>ueen   and 

|ier  Jaw.s,  to  tlie  evil  examjjle  of  all  otln-r-  in  the  like  case  otii-nding,  cc)ntrarv  to  tile  duty 

'  of  the  allegiance   of   him,  the  .said    Loui.s    IMel,  against    the   form  of'  the   Statute  in  such 

.case  niiule  and  ]>rovidt'<l  and  ajfainst   the  peace^of  our  said   Liidy  tiie  Quei-n,  her  Crown 

find  dignity.  •     ».  ' 


V  5"  .i.  •  And  tlie  .sai<l  Alexander  David  Stewart  fiilrthei-  saitli  ;  That  tiie  .said  Louis 
Kiel,  being  a  suliject  of  o\n'  Ijiidy  the  Queen,  not  legariling  the  duty  of  his  allegiance  nor 
lia^ing  the  fear  of  (Imd  in  lii.s  heart,  hut  lieiiig  moved  and  .seduced  hy  flic  instigation  ^f 
the  J)e\il,  iis  a  traitor  against  our  said  liady  the  Queen,  and  wholly  withdrawing -the 
allegiajjce,  lidelity  and  oliedience  w-hich  i-very  true  and  fuithful  suliject  of  oui-  said  Lady 

jjdft'  Queen  .shoulil  and  of  light  ought  to  hear  towards  our  .said  Lady  tire  Queen,  on  the 
ninth,  tenth,  eleventh  and  twclftJi  days  of  .^Lly,  in  the  year  aforesaid,  togetlier  with 
other  (K\eis  false  trait+»t.s  t»j  tlie  said  Alexander  J)a.\id  Stewart  unknovvn,  armed  and 
arrayed  in  ji^warlike  nijinner,  that  is  to  say,  with  ^uns,  ritles,  pistols,  liayonets  and  other 
weapons.' lieing  then  unlawfully,  maliciously  and  traitorouslv  as.->emliled  hii|I  gathered 
togdther  against  our  said  I>a(ly  the  Queen  most  wickedly,  maliciously  and  traitorously 
did  jjBvy   ai'iil   make   war  against   our   said    Jjady  the   Queen  at    th(?   locality  known  us 

^IWm'he,  in  the  .^aid 'Jsorth-\V est  Territories  of  Canada,  and  within  thi.-,  Uealm,  and 
did  then  maliciously  and  traitorously  attempt^  and  endeavor  hy  foi-ce  and  arms  to  subvert 
and  destroy  the  Constitution  antl,  (iovernment  of  tlii.s  Uealm  as  by  law  estab- 
lished, and  dejirive  aim  depose  our  said  Lady  tlie  Queen  of  and  from  the  style,  honour 
aiidliingly  name'' of  tlie  Liii)erial  Crown  of  this  Uealm,  in  contempt  of  our  .said  Ijiidy  tlie 
Queen  and  her  laws,  to  the  evil  example  of  all  others  in  like  case  offending,  contrary  to 
the  duty  of  the  allegiance  of^him,  the  .said  Limis  Uiel,  against  the  form  of  the  Statute  in 


Z' 


sucli  ease  luudc  mid   jirovidnl  mid  injaiust  tlii'  jicaco  of  our  said  Ladv  the  Quoeiii'her 
Crown  and  dij^nity. 

" +.      AikI  tlio  said   Alexander   David  Stewart   further  wiitli  :   Tliat  the  said   liOuis  l\ 

Kiel,  tlien  living'  witliin  tlie  Doinitiion  of  C'auaila  and  under  tlie  protection  of  our  Lady 
the  Queen,  not  rej^ardinj^  the  duty  of  liis  allegiamveT^or  liavin^  the  t'eaiflpf  (lod  in  hi 
Jieart,  liut  l>einj;  moved  and   seduced   l>y  the  instij^ation  of  tlie   Devil  as  , ;  •     o' 

aj^ainst  our  said  Lafly-  the  Queen,  and  whollv  withdrawini;  the  alle;,'iaiice,  hdelity  and 
oliedience  which  he  should  and  of  right  ou;^lit  to  hear  towards  our  said  Lady  the  Queen; 
on  the  twenty-sixth  day  of  ^Liivh,  in  the  year  aforesaid,  together  with  other  divers  false 
traitors  to  the  said  Alexaiidei'  David  Stewrart  unknown,  aru.ed  and  arrayed  in  a  warlike 
manner,  that  is  to  say,  with  j^uiis,  riHes,  jiistols,  liayonets  and  othi'r  weapons,  beini^  then 
unlawfully,  maliciously  and  traitorously  assemliled  and  feathered  to;;etlier  aijainst  our 
said  Lady  the  Queen,  most  wickedly,  maliciously  and  traitorously  did  levy  and  make  v 
war  against  our  said  IjJidy  the  (^ueeii  at  the  locality  known-  as   Duck  Lake,  in  the  said  ^ 

Xorth-West  Territories  of  (,'anada,  and  Within  this  Realm,  and  did  then  maliciously 
and  traitorously  attempt  and  endeavor  hy  force  and  arms  to  suhvert  and  destroy  the 
Constitution  and  (ioverniiient  of  this  Realm  as  hy  law  estahlished,  and  deprive  and  depose 
our  said  Lady  the  Queen  of  and  from  the  style,  honour  iyid  kingly  name  of  the  Imperial 
Crown  of  this  Realm,  in  contempt  of  our  said  Lady  the  (jueen  and  her  laws,  to  the  evil  ^ 
example  of  all  others  in  like  case  ollendiug,  contrary  to  the  duty  of  the  allegiance  of  him, 
the  said  f^ouis  Riel,  against  the  form  of  the  Statutt<  in  such  case  made  and  provided  and 
against  the  peace  «f  our  said  Lady  the  Queen,  her  CrowU  and  dignity. 

"  5.  And  the  said  Alexander  David  Stewart  further  saith  :  That  the  said  Louis 
Riel,  then  living  within  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  and  under  the  protection  of  our  said 
Lady  tlie(<ilueen,  not  regarding  the  duty  of  his  allegiance  nor  having  the  fear  of  Gwl  in  ' 
his  heart,  hut  being  moved  and  seduced  hy  the  instigation  of  the  De\  14  as  a  false  traitrtr 
against  our  said  Laih'  the  t^hiecn,  and  wholly  withdrawing  the  allegiance,  fidelity  and 
oliedience  which  he  should  and  of  li^ht  ought  to  hear  towards  our  said  Lady  the  Quieeu, 
on  the  twenty-fourth  day  of  A]iril,  in  the  ye.ii-  aforesaid,  toijether  with  other  divers  falsfe 
traitors  to  the  said  Alexander  jtavid  Stewart  unknown,  ariiied  and  arrayed  in  a  warlike 
manlier,  that  is  to  say,  with  guns,  ritle^,  jjistols,  liayonets  and  other  weapons,  lieing  thea 
unlawfully,  maliciously  and  traitorously  assembled  and  gathered  together  against  oi»r 
said  l^nly  the  (^ueeii,  most  wickedly,  maliciously  and  traitorously  did  levy  and  make  waf 
against  lair  said  Lady  the  Queen,  at  the  locality  known  as  Fish  Creek,  in  tin;  Sivid 
N'orth-NVest  'J'erritories  of  (.'anada,  and  within  thi^  Realm,  and  did  then  maliciously  and 
traitorously  attempt  and  endea\  111',  hy  force  and  arms|  to  suh\ert  an<l  destroy  the  Con- 
stitution and  ( ioverniiient  of  this  Realm  as  hy  law  estahlished,  and  deprive  iwid  depose, 
our  said  I«ulv  the  t^hicen  of  and  from  the  style,  honour  and  kindly  name  of  the  Imperial 
Crown  of  this  llealm,  in  contempt  of  our  said  Lady  tlie  Queen  and  her  laws,  to  the  evil 
exaiiijile  iit  all  others  in  like  case  ortending,  contrary  to  the  allegianci'  of  li)m,  the  said 
Louis  Riel,  against  the  foiiii  nf  the  Statute  in  such  case  made  and  provided,  and  against 
the  peace  of  our  said  Jjidy  the  (^Jueen,  her  Crown  and  dignity.  , 

■•  t).  And  the  said  Alexander  David  Stewau  further  sailli  :  That  the  said  Louis 
Riel,  then  li\  ing  witJiin  the  Dominion  of  Canada  and  uiider  the  protection  of  ( )ur 
Sovereign  Lady  thi'  Queen,  luit  regarding  the  duty  of  his  allegiance,  nor  having  the  tear 
of  tiod  in  his  lu-art,  hut  heing  moved  and  seduced  hy  the  instigations  of  the  Devil  as  a 
false  traitor  against  (Jur  said  [..ady  the  Queen,  and  wholly  withdrawing  the  allegiance, 
Hdelity  and  ohedieiice  which  he  should  ami  of  right  ought  to  he.ir  towards  ( )ur  said  Lady  "  . 
the  yueeii,  on  the  ninth,  tenth,  eleventh  and  twelth  days  of  May,  in  t'le  year  aforesaid, 
together  with  divers  oth^r  fal.se  traitors  to  the  said  Alexander  l>avid  Stewart  unknown, 
arivled  and  ar»^yed  in  a  warlike  iiiauuer,  that  is  to  say  with  guns,  riHes,  pistols,  bayonets 
and  other  weapons  being  then  unlawfully,  maliciously  and  traitorously  a.ssemhled  and 
j;athered  agaiVist  Our  said  Lady  the  Queen,  most  wickedly  and  maliciously  ami  traitorously 
tlid  levy  and   make  war  against  (,)ur  said   Lady  the  Queen,   at   the   locality   known  as 


r 


it 
;.  i 

f  !  • 


Baloilie,  lii-^tln'  Siiid  XoitJi  West  Tcrritoiics  of  (jaivulii.  iiiid  witliiii  tliis  liOiillii  .and 
(lid  tlii'ii,  iii;ili(.-iim.sly  aiul  traitorously  iitti'iiijit  iuid  I'udciivour  liy  forci^  find  ai-iiis  to  julivort 
and  destroy  tile  Constitution  and  (iovernineut  of  this  Realm  as  liy  law  e-,tal»lislicd,  and 
depiive  and  depose  Our  said  Lady  the  Queen  of  and  from  tlie  style,  honour  and  kinj;ly 
iimne  of  the  linperinj  Crown  of  tliis  llealni  in  eontenipt  of  <  )ur  said  Lady  the  (Jueen  and 
her  laws,  to  the  evil  example  of  others  in  like  case  orteiidiii!,',  contrary  to  the  duty  of 
iiHefiiSnce  of  him,  the  said  Louis  lliel,  a.v':»iiist  the  form  of  the  Statute  in  such  case  made 


and"  providi' 
(liiLfnitv. 


id 


ajjanist    the    pi 


rpf    On  I 


Liidy    the 

(Siifned) 


<t)(ieen,   Mi 


li  case 
<  'iiiwn 


and 


\ 


Sworn  liefore  me,'the  day  and  year  first  aliove 
mentioned, at  the  town  of  Rej^ina,  in  t)ie  North 
West  T^Ti-itorieij  f)f  Canada. 


A.   1).  STKWART. 


(Si.^'ne.l)  ' 


.)%, 


Hl'iiH    RICHARDSON. 

niriiii-  ill  I'll'/  I'll'  III''  Xor/i'i- 


.-V  '/'.  rrifii. 


^ 


'■/'  C'liiii  I". 


I 


V 


ClEKK. - -Ijouis  Riel,  are  you  ijiiiity  or  not   uuilty  .' 

>Ii«.  Jl'stick  RuilAKUsrfS".-  Wlio  appears  for  the  prosecution  ? 

Mr;.  Cinn.sTi\i>iieii  Roiiivson  Q.  C.  —I  appe.u-  with  ms'  learned   friimls  I;.  I!.  u>|i>f, 
Q.  C,  U.  W.  lJur!.id;.'e,  ^l  ('.,  I).  L.  Scott  anil  T.  C   Casj/riiin.  ' 

Mit.  F.  X-.  TiKMlKUX.      I  apjiiiai'  for  the  iirisoner  with  Mr.  Charles  Fit/patrick,  J.  N. 
CJreenshields  and  T.  (,'.  .lohnston.      I    hold  in  my  hand   a    jilea   ti>  the   jurisdiction  <if  the. 
Court,  su|>ported  hy  the  usual  aliidavits,  and  we  have  aj,'reed   that    Mr.  Fit/patrick  shall 
arjfue  that  part  of  the  i-ase.   Will  your  Honor  he  kind  enou.^ii  to  have  the  prisoner  swear 
to  the  iitlida\  it  suiiportiiii,' the  plea^  ; 

^Ik.  Rl('il.\i!l)SOV.--Tiie  clerk  may  swear  him  now,  as  the  Court  is  ojien.  -; 

I      ■     A^davit  sworn  to  hy  the  prisoner-. 

Mr.  FlTEHATlilCK.  - -May  it-please  your  Honor,  [  will  now  jir-!)cee<I  to  reail  to  tlrt^ 
Ccuirt  the  plea  to  tl:e  jurisdiction  of  the  Court  in  this  case  and  atlidavit. 

;      .  "THE  QUEEN   i«.  LOURS   RIEL." 

•  "  Clini'jiil  uiid'-r  tlir  .Vartli^Wpsl  /irritorien  Art  JSS'K 

"And  the  said  Louis  Riel,  in  his  own  proper  per.son  conieth  into  a  Court  liere  and 
liavinj;  heard  the  information  and  complaint  of  Alexander  David  Stewar-t,  of  the  City  of 
Hamilton,  in  the  Province  of  Ontario,  in  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  Chief  of  Police,  taken 
the  sixth  day  of  July,  in  the  year  of  Our  Lord  one  thou.saud  ei;,'ht  liuiulred  and  eiuhty- 
tive,  hefoie  Hugh  Richardson,  one  of  Her  Majesty's  Stipendiary  Magistrates  in  and  for 
the  North- West  Territories  of  Canada,  saith  :  ' 

"  That  Hugh  Richardson,  Esq.,  one  of  Her  Majesty's  Stipendiary  Magistrates  for  the 
North- West  Territories  of  Canada,  exercising  criminal  jurisdiction,  in  open  Court,  with  a 
justice  of  the  peace  and  a  jury  of  six,  under  the  provision  of  the  Norfh-We.st  Territories 
Act,  1880,  ought  not  to  take  cognizance  of  the  offences  in  the  said  infomnation  charged  and 
specified  hecause,  protesting  that  he  is  not  guilty  of  the  saine^  nevertneless.  tlie  said  Louis 
Riel  saith  that  the  ofl'ences  with  wliich  he  is  charged  are  punishable  witn  death  and  he 
should  Vje  committed  for  safe  custody  and  sent  for  trial  to  Upper  Canada  or  to  any 
Court  constituted  in  British  Columbia,  taking  cognizance  of  like  offences  committed 
therein,  and  because  in  virtue  of  the  laws  in  force  in  the  place  where  the  said  offences 
are  charged  to  have  been  committed,  the  said  Hugh  Richardson,  in  open  Court,  with  a 

;.         '  ■  .    '    ■-  t^'   -      ■ 


Y 


justice  of  the  peace  und   a  juiy  of  six,  lius  no  jurisdiction  to  try  tlie  otl'ences  cliargetl  in 
tlie  said  infonniition. 

"WlieiTt'ore  tlicsaid  Loui's  Kiel  prays  jud<fHT(MiF it'  the  sa^HLHu;;!!  Richardson  in  open 
Court  witii  a  justice  of  the  peace  and  a  ^ry  of  six  now  lieiV^will  take  coj^nizauce  of 
the  cRar;;es'  aforesaid.  ' 


Opurt  here  adjourned  till  one  o'clock. 
ResHiired  after  adjournnii'.it 


\ 


\ 


ICesHiiren  atter  adiournniint. 

His  IfTiNol!  .Ml!.  .llsTliK  IvKllAKD.-ioN.      Hefore  you  proceed,  1  un(U'r.-.taUd  tliere  are 
<|uite  a  nundier  of  prisoners  in  cust6<ly.  ; 

-Mii.   OsLKi!. — Seventy  tliree. 

-Ills  Hoxoi!.  -Oo.ins  tliroti^li  all  tliese  will  take  a  very  lonj,'  time,  a  ^reat  number 
of  days.  Tlie  prospects  are  that  this  case,  if  it  does  not  close  at  once,  will  take  a  consi- 
deralile  time  and  will  lie  folloMfVI  l>v  the  others.  1  think  it  would  lie  unfair  for  the 
prisoners  to  keep  them.  lon<;er  in  custodv  than  iieces.sary,  and  1  propose  therefore,  tM  ' 
there  are  other  ■,'entlenieii  haviiij^  the  same  jurisdiction  as  .iiiy.self,  to  ask  tli6  (loveni- 
meiit  to  send  one  of  them  to  hold  Court  so  its  to  have  the  two  Courts  sitting'  at  the  .same 
time,  if  you  j;entleiiieii  lunc  no  oljection  to  that  course. 

Mli.   RolilXsov.    -We  ha\  <•  iiii  ulijecii.iii    to   that.      We   were    talkiii;;   al.out   it    this 
niorniii<'. 


MluFlTZI'.vnilcK.  luill  pii.cei'd  to  n-ad  our  plea  to  the  Jurisdii-tion  of  the  (.'ourt; 
as  amended  in  sfime  re.sjiect^. 

Jfl.s  Ho.Noi;.      This  will  In-  Niilistiluti'd  for  the  one  put  in  my  hand  thi.->  iiKiriiiuL;. 

-Mr.   Kitzpatriik  rea<K  thi>  plea  as  aiiitiuled. 

Ml!.  liOltlsso.v.  -  III  our  view  a  formal  plea  to  the  jiuisdiction  is  Hot  necessary  nor 
a  foi-ii»iil  answer,  we  tlu)Uj,dit  it  onlv  necessary  for  them  to  stiite  their  ohjeetion  and  for  us 
to  answei  them.  '  /  ^ — -' 

••And  the  said  Christopher  lloMn.son,  one  of  Her  ^lajesty's  Counsel  learned  in  the 
law,  wlio  foi-  ( )ur  said  Sovi-rtiu;u  Lady  tin-  t^ueeii,  in  tlvis  liehalf  prosecute,  to  the 
.said  ple.i  of  him  the  .said  Louis  liiel,  liv  liim  aliove  pleacled  as  aforesaid,  for  ( )ur  said  jHesent 
Sovereiuii  Lady  the  (^Uieeii,  saith  : 

••That  the  sail  jilea  and  the  nii'itter  therein  contained  are  not  sutticient  in  law  to 
precluife  the  Court  from  their  jurisdiction,  and  to  liearaiid  determine  the  oti'eiices  charffed,' 
mentioned  and  .specified  in  the  said  charije  as  ahoxe  cliariied  upon  him  the  said,  Louis 
Kiel  in  and  liy  the  said  charge. 

•■Wherefore,  for  want  of  a  proper  and  sutticient  answer  in  this  lielialf  he  prayeth  judj;- 
iiient,  and  that  the  said  IjOilis  Kiel  may  answer  in  Court  hereto  Our  said  present 
Sovereign  Lady  the  (Jueeii  touchinif  and  conceriiiiii^  tin:  premises  aforesaid.. 

Answer  handed  to  the  clerk  and  fvled. 

His   Hoxoii.  — We  have  the  plea  to  the  jurisdiction  and  we  have  the  demurrer. 
Mif.  FrrzH.\Ti!i('K.'^  We  join  i.s.sue  upon  tlie  demurrer. 

.Ml:.  Jiscii'U  lllcil.Miliso.N.  -  Now,  if  J  under.stand  the  contention  of  Mr.  Fitzpatrick, 
it  is  that  this  Act  of  is.so,  .so  far  as  it  relates  to  the  trial  of  criminal  oti'eiices  such  as 
this,  is  ii/lnt  c/rf.v. 

Mii.  FiTZF.\riii('K.  .My  contention  is  that  the  Act  of  lf<f<0,  in  .so  far  as  it  relates  to 
the  trial  of  capital  cases  is  ii/(ra  (•//•ck.  '  -  ' 

'Sht.  Jl'.sTICK  KinniiDSON.  -Well,  as  I  cannot  hold  that,  I  must  sustain  the 
demurrer.  » 


1  innst  HOW  call  upon  Louis  Riel  tcTjilead.  ,  I 

Piisoiier  jilfiuls  not  guilty.  '  • 

>ln.  .r<)rixsT<».—  With  tPio  j)eniii.ssioii  of  tlio^couit  1  l>pj^  li-iivc  to  demur  to  the 
iiifoniiittioii.'  It  inrglit  l)ft  sutiiciiMit  tf)  dcniur  </;•<-  trjui.--,  or  liy  oral  cxfcptioii  to  tjie 
iiifoniiatioii  :  y(t,.;is  the  juToiiii^tioii  laid  hy  tiie  jirosfcutioii  in  itst'lf  fonnal,  and  a  de|)ar-' 
lure  tVojii  tli«"  proii'duiv  ln'i('tiT))t'  tliis' couHj  I  think  it  mvessaiy  to  jiut  fn  a  written 
general  .demurrer  as  follows  :  ■  '  *  . 

'     C.\XAU.*.  '       t.  .  ■ 

NortJi-\yt.st'  Teriitories.  ) 

TITE  Ql'kKX    -x    LoriS  Kl  KL,  now  dnrv'.'d  l.ef.in'  His  Honor  H u-Ii  Hichaitl-; 
son,  Stipendiary  Mai;istrate,  and    Meinv  AieJcunc.    l']s(Hiiie,  a  justice  i)f  tlie  jieaee,  and 
'a  jury  of  six  undPr  the  jii-ovision  of  sul)section   .">,  seetion   70,  of  the  Norh-West  Terri- 
tories  Ai-t,    l''^)^0,    on    the   information    of    Alexiinder~Pu\  id   Stewart.      The   said    Louis 


Kiel,  .in    his    own     jiroj/er- person,  >fonieth    into     Court,  h*»e,   and    ha\  in-.;  heard   saW-~, 
inforinatjon  rea(l,jsiiy(?th  that  the. said   information  and   the  matters  therein  contained     ■ 
in  tlje  iiKiniuM'  iUJ<l' foriri  as  de.sei'iiied  and  above  stated  and  set  forth,  are  not  sufficient  in 
md  khat  the  said  Lo'uis  Kiel' is  not  liound   liy  law  of  the  land  to  aiiswer  the  Siinie.  , 
Wlieri'fore  for  want  of  suttioient  information  the  said  Louis  Kiel  jirays  judj^ment. 


law, 


Ml{.l  JusTKK  Uk'iuhdsoS.  I  don  t  think  there  is  anytliiiii;  in  tlie  olijicfion  of  .Mr. 
JohnstoiJ  and  I  ovi'rrule  it.      .\re  thciv  any  other  demurrers  .' 

^Ik.J  Osi.Klt.      The  clerk  will  ask  the  prisonei-  x^liother  he  i.VL'uilty  oi-  not. 

Cl.KliK.      Louis  Hie),  are  yo\i  uuilty  or  not   guilty  .' 

PmilONKli.  —  I  have  the  honor  to  an.swer  the  Court  I  am  not  guilty. 

Mh.  FrrzHAliilcK. -  I  have  now. to  state  thitt  I  ha\e  to  ask' an  adjournment  till  to- 
inorro^v  ifuorning  to  enahle  us  to  prepare  some  atHdavits  we  re(|uire  to  produce  to  show 
why  we  *re  not  in  a  |iosition  to  proceed  with  the  trial  at  the  piesent  moment. 

<     Hisl  HoSoH.      Jurois  will  understan<l  that  they  arc  to  lie  continually  iii  attendance, 
as  al.so  \\|itne.sses  on  Koth  sides. 

Wejwill  adjoutii  till  10  o'cloik  to  nioirow. 
Coult  then  adjourned.  • 


i'i:(.i.\.V  .luly  Jlst,  ISS.'i. 
The  clerk  opened  thf  Court  at  10  o'clock. 
H  isfl  I  onor -M  r.  .hsiici;  Ui<ii.\uns_o>  :  (.'all  the  jury. 
Tliiej  clerk  calls  over  the  list  of  juror.s.  . 

■  '     TlK^M.vs  Pi;i:i,,  one  of  the  jurors. — Yrmr  honor,  on  ac  ■unit   of  luing  postmaster  and 
coiitractijr  to  carry  the  mails,  I  lieg  to  lie  relieved. 

His  Honoh. —  I  fear-l  havi>  no  power  to  relieve  you  now,  you  were  fairly  drawn  out 
of  a  large  nundier  of  names,  and  1  do  not  think  that  1  can  discharge  you  now. 

His  Honoh.      I  have~noticed  several  jurors  who  were  sunnnoned  do  not  a|)peiir.      Is 
it  the  desire  that  procee(l,ings  should  he  instituted  against  them  .' 

Mii  UoiiiNsox.      Not  if  we  can  get  on  without  them. 

Mli  Lk.mieux.-    Mr.  Watson,  wrll  you  please  swear  the  prisonei-  to  the.se  ,irtida\its. 

The  clerk  swears  tfie  attidavits.l 

Mnj.  (xHEKXSlliKLDS.      Please   vour  honor,  we  renew  the  application  made  yesterday 
afternixin  for  an  adjournment  of   this   tiial.      in  the   interval  .since  the  a<ljournment  we 


have  liad  tliici-  atliilavits  |)icpiirt'<),  two  of  the  st-iiior  couiisel,  ^Ipssrs  Leuiieux  and  Fitz- 
patrick,  and  (•ue  of  tin-  ac'-used.  We  hase  our  aj»i>lieatiou  to^a  large  extent  upon  thpse 
attidavits.  «  •        • 

His   Honor.-  Have  th(>y  l»'en  shown  to  the  counsel  for  the  CrOwn  f,  ^      -  v 

Mr.  HolilxsoN.      We  have  seen  them  just  lately,  we  will  look  over  tli^-ni  ayain. 

Mr.  <  ;i(Ki;\slilKM>s  leads  the  allidavits  annexed  herit. 4 .,.'.... 


.Ml!.  .llsriCK  KU'llAliDSox.  The  order  will  he  that  the  trial  stands  a<ljourne(l,- that 
it  proceeds  |iereiniitorily  on  Tuesday  niorninji  next,  the  liSth  instant,  at  ten  o'clock.. 
Witli  rej;ard  to  tin-  .lurv,  1  dijn't  feel  inclined  to  keep  theiii  in  attemlance,  and  1  pi-opCse 
to  cautiiin  and  waiJi  them  To  return  on  Tuesday  inorniii','.         •      '  '       ,  . 

To  iiii:  .liHVMKV.  A'«)U  i;entlemen  in  the  audience  who  lia\e  heen  warned  as' 
jurors,  will  understand  from  what  has  lieen  said,  that  VdUr  servi.  e^  will  not  he  retjuiit-d 
now  till  Tui'sday  m-xt,  at  >eu  o'clock  a.m.,  anil  you.  are  nt  lilierty  now  to  retuin  to  your 
homes  if  you  l>lease.  The  fees  that  are  usual  for  the.diudde  journey,  will  lie  paid  l>y  the 
( 'rown.  Perhaps  it  is  not  neces.sary  for  me  to  make  any  remaiks  touching,'  you  iier.soii- 
aliy,  liut  kiiowinif  tiie  fact  that  yon  are  called  ujion  to  act  as  jurors'  in  this  case,  kindly 
think  of  tin-  jMisition  you  occupy,  antl  neither  talk  to  anyliody  al«>ut  th.'  trial,  nor  allow 
any  pers(ui  to  talk  to   you   or  lirin-,'  you   in   conxcrsation. 

The  Couit  was  aciordin.i;ly  adj.ourned  at   1  l.4."'i  a.m.  till  the  L'."<th  July,  at  tin  a.  ni. 


.Ijfl'lini/s     fl/ri/   lilt    illlll'tlll     /ill'   lliljllilfllllll'ltf.  I 

V\s\\>\:  I  TIIK  (,>IKHN   ,-,s.  LoliS   HIKL, 

North-West  Teiritorieri.  |  cliar;;etl  under  the  North-West  Territories  .\ct  of  IsSO, 

I,  Lolls  UlKi.,  tin-  said  accused,  licini;  duly  swoin.  do  depose  and  siiy  : 

That  (iaiiriel  |)umont  and  Michel  I>unias,  now  nf  Helena,  in  the  I'nited  States  of 
Amei'icn.  in  the  Territory  of  Montana,  are  e^^eutial  and  nuiterial  witnesses  to  my 
defence. 

That  Napoleon  Naidt,  of  Turtle  Mountain,  in  the  I'nited  States  :  the  Rev.  b'ii^ther 
Touse,  of  Sacit'-Cour  ;  the  Kev.  Father  Andre,  of  St.  Antoine  ;  the  Hew  Pather 
Fourmond,  of  St.  f.aurent  ;  all  in  the  North- West  Territiuies  of  Canada  ;  S.  Vanki<in;h- 
net  and  .\.  .M.  Ihiryes'-,  of  <  )ttawa,  in  the  I'roxinceof  ( )ntaiio,  arc  also  essential  and 
material  witnesses  tor  my  ilc  fence. 

That  the  said  ,S.  \'ankouijhaet  is  Deputy  Minister  of  Indian  .Vtlairs,'  and  the  said 
Burj;ess  is  Ueputy  Minister  of  tlu'  lnteri(u-,  lioth  of  wiiom  are  in  their  otticial  capacity, 
tlie  custodians  of  various  otlicial  documents,  petitions  and  ri'presentations,  made  hy  the 
Half-breeds  of  tluf  North-West  Territories  to  the  (ioVernment  of  tin-  Dominion  of 
Canada,  praying' for  the  re< I ress  of  their  grievances,  the  refusal  to  jjrant  which  led  to 
tlie  legal  agitation  of  the  people  to  secure  tlie  redress  of  their  wrongs.  The  said  pajwrs, 
|>etitions  and  documents,  as  nearly  as  1  can  now  descrihc  them,  are  as  follows:  The 
report  of  .Mr.  Pier(>e  relating  to  the  settlement  of  Prince  Alhert  ;  a  letter  of  the  said 
Pierce,  aildres.sed  to  tht^  .Minister  of  the  Interior,  of  date,  the  ITtli  of  .lanuarv,  lf»."'4.  .V  ' 
letter  from  Mi-.  Dex  ille,  addressed  to  the  i)eputy  Minister  of  the  Interior,  of  date,  7tli 
Feliruary,  ISS4.  .V  letter  from  Father  ISerginville,  addressed  to  Capt.  Deville,  of  date, 
19th  January,  rsS4.  .\.  petition  l>y  the  inhaliitants  of  St.  Louis-de-Langevin,  for- 
warded to  Sir  John  .V.  .Macdonald,  alxait  the  lOtli  Novemher,  ISS.}.  .\  letter  from  tlie 
Liind  CommissicHiner,  .Mr.  Pieiei'.  dated,  1  4th  Septemlier,  ISS:!.  .V  let t.-r  from  Fathers 
Leduc  and  Malony,  addressetl  to  the  Hon.  D.  L.  .Macpher.son,  acting  .Minister  of  the 
Interior.      A  pf-tition  from  the  si'ttlers  of  Prince  Albej:t,  in  the   North-West   Territories,  ■ 


:/ 


■  » 


•forWrded  durinn;  the  wiiitfr  of  1H.S2  and  lt<i>*;{,  uiul  si;,'iiwl  lij- ii  hirgi-  iuiial>er  of  said 
settlwrs.  A  iietitioii  from  St.  Antoine  dc-Padouf,  iiddrcssed  to  Sir-  Joliii  A-  Macdonald, 
a«>3Ii)iist('r  of  the  Interior,  of  date,  tlie  14th  Si-ptcinl)cr,  1S.S2.  A  |i<'tition  from  (Jahriel 
-t>ui)iif>nt  and  otliers,  of  the  4th  St'|)teml)er,  1><.S4,  a(hlr('ssed  to  the  Ili^ht  Hon. 'Sir  John 
Af^|acdonahl,  as  Minister  of  the  Interior.  A  petition  jirt-.sented  liy  the  Ke\ .  Father 
I  Andj'e  1»  tlie.  Lieutenant  (iovernor  in  Council,  in  tlic  month  of  June,  ISSl.  A  petition 
.  presented  liv  thi'  inhahitants  of  Prince  Albeit  to  tjie  Ministi'r  of  the  Interior.  .V  letter 
from  Land  Ai,'ent  Duck,  dated  the  L'Uli  of  XovenilM-r,  ISJS,  addiessed  tii  the  Minister  of 
tlie  ]ut4'rior.  A  petition  hy  the  French-Canadians  and  llalf-Krceds  o^  I'rinie  Alliert 
jiresented  hy  Mr.  Laird  to  the  (ioveiinnenl  (if  tlie  Itondnion  of  Canaifa.  A  rcsulutioii 
j>assed  liy  these  settlers  of  St.  Ijiui'ent  of  the  1st  of  Feliruary,  l^'7>'',  fiHwarded  to  th(^ 
< Jo.vf rnnient  of  the  JJominion  of  Canada.  \  [lefition  pi-esented  l.y  the  t,|u'A)ipelle  Half- 
fireefls  in  Aujfust'or  Sei)tend>er,  lt<M,  to  Sir  John  A.  Macilonald,  as  .Minister  of  the. 
Tnterior.  A  resolution. o"f  the  Cchincil  of  the  North-\^'e^t  Territorii>.  nt  tlu'  ditcof  "Jnd 
Au-ijust,  1S7S.      '  * 

That  I  liave  reason  to  lu'liexe,  and  do  M'rily  liilie\c.  and  I  am  iMfoiiucd  on  relialile 
.lutlority,  fhat  all  of  the  afori'iiientioned  documents  wei'e  duly  forwardeil  to  llie  (ioverii- 
nient  of  ( 'anada,  and  aie  now  in  the  po.s.sc.s>ion  of  the  \arious  |)c|i;iiMjiientn,  ami  can  1m 
jiroi 

and 
ifor  i 

'   .ief( 


us'ed  l>y  the  alio\ cnamed  witnc-.ssc-v 

That  all  the  alio\  I'liamcrl  witnesses  :ire  material  anil  I's.sential  to  nii'  in  my  defence, 
will  prove  that  the  a,;,'itation  in  the  North  W'l-^t  Teri-itorie-,  wa>  eonstitutioiiul  .ind 
lie  rijihts  of  the  people  in  said  North W'e.sT. 

That  without  the  saiil    witni'.sses   liein!.:    heard    in    Cmnt,    I    cannot    make   a    jirnpei 
(Ince  to  the  present  chaiLie  and  will  lie  ili'|irived  of  justice. 
I  That  1  lia\c  no  means  withwhicli  to  di-fray  the   expenses   of   lie-   >aid   «iln.-.se.,  and 
to  jlrocure  their  attendance  here  in  ('ourt  or  to  ret, tin   counsel. 

Tliat  unless  tlie   (iovernineiit    of   this   country  (M-   this    llonoraMi- ( 'nuii  d.pr.ivide 
means  witli  which  to  .secure  tiie  altendam'e  of  the  aliove  named  wilncsscs.  Iiclore  tliis 
Coi  rt,    it    i.s  es.sential    to    my  d<-fenee  that  the  various    pa)H'rs,    writin;,'s  and  docaiments 
takpii  from  me  at  the  timi-  of  my  surrender  to  (ieneial    Middleton  and  taken  liy  him  and 
orticers  froiH  my  liouse  sul).sei|iiently  should  lie  placed  in  the  hands   of   my  coiiiisel  for 
e.vaminatioi'  and  consideration,  pi'eylous  to  lieiiii,'  put  U|iiin    my  trial. 
That  it  is  im)iossiljle  forTiie  to  stale  the  exact  description   of  the   said    papers,  writ- 
in.''s  and  documents,. as   the   exciteiuent    under  whiili    I    was    lalioiliii;   duriii;;  the  time  of 


th. 


his 
theSi 


iliil  ]ire\  ioiis  thereto,  render  it  impossjiile  for 


my  s«iriender  anil  some  days  sulisei|ueijtl 

me  to  de.-?)_riln   tli^  said  documents.  .  •  ■      '       ' 

*•      That'  I  lii'licM'  amoni;  the  s'aid  document,s  is  a  cerlilicate  of  the  Coiiris  of  ihe  I'liited 

States  of  .\merica  that  I  was  duly  naturalized  as  a  citizen  of  the  I'niled  States,  which  1 

Wjiii,  hut  if  the  .said  ceittlicate  is  not  aliionu  the  said  |iapers,  it   is  essential  to    niy  defence 

that  J  should  lie  iri\  ell  an  op|)oi;tunity  of  olitaininu  the  said  ceititicatt-  l>y  means  of  wiiich' 
,  I  can  estalilish  that,  at  the  time  of  the  cohikiii-ssioii  of  the  alleued  ollences,  1  was  a  citi/eii 
'<if  the  Ciiitrd  States  of  America,  and  was    not  a  ISritish   snliject,- as   ciiarjfed    in    the  sjlid 

information.  '    •    ' 

'      That  in  order  to  jiroperly  prepare  for  my  di^fenci-    I 

ii)(>ntli,  and  1  ha\  e  signed. 
"    .;  (Siuiieil),      ■ 


niie   al    li 


ilelav  of  one 


LuL|.«i  JJIKL 


i^vorii  and  ackiiow  ledjied  before  me  this 
'  H'lst  dayof  July  A.  I).  ISS.").  at  lle- 
_Uiiiui,  in  the  North-West  Territories. 


<Sig«ed), 


DIXIK   WATSON.   <■/.,■;,: 


:■{ 


*A 


V  .,1  vv'^^/t*^'  •.    •      !   THK  QUEKN'  <•«.  LOt'IS  KIEL. 
.\ortli-\N  est  leni tones,  j  ^ 


^-^ 


KiiAM.ois  Xavikk  r^KMiicrx,  liiu-i-ister,  oiif  of  the  touimel  of  Louis  Uifl,  the  accused, 
iii'iuic  itiily  swoni,  (l<'|io.si-tli  and  .says  ;  ■ 

That  ill  thf  toiirsi'  of  hist  Juiii-,  towards  tlic  end  of  tin-  month,  he  was  rptaiued  l>y 
piisoiis  intcicstcd  on  lii-lialf  of  tlic  an-usfd  to  luah'rtakt'  his  detVucc. 

That  pi-isons  wiTi'  in>tiiuted  tf>  i"iu.-.c  to  l>f  hrouylit  to   Rej;ina  essfutial  and  neces-      ■  .^ 
siii-y: witiifsscs  in'tl(c  <hfi-nii'  of  Louis  Hicl,  and  helievcd  to  lie  such  liv  tlic  dciioncnt. 

TJiMt  the  witnesses  aliove  referred  to  are  Doctor  Francois  Ivoy,  of  (Juehec,  Doctor 
<  lark,  of 'i'oronto,  and  Doctor  A.  \'alh-e,' of  (^ueliec. 

That  the  de|ionent  verily  heliexes  tliat  tlie  said  witnesses  would  hax'e  reacheil  Kejjina 
I'y  this  time,  hut  hy  I'eason  of  misajnirehension  anil  circumstances  lieyond  control,  the 
-aid    witnesses   Irixi'    failed  or   lia\e   not    lieen   alile  to  be   jireseut  in  orderVo  give  their  " 

■  •\  idence.  * 

That  from  hi-  e\|ii-iicnee  a-  a  counsel  and  advocate  lie  swears  that  tlie  said  Divs. 
l!oy,N'all<e  and  Clark  are  iiece-sary,  material  and  indispensable  witnesses  for  tht  dM'ence 
of  theai  ctised,  and  n'oreoviT,  are  the  sole  witnesses  capable  of  Jiri)\  inj,'  certain  important 
facts  relatioL'  to  the  said   defence. 

That  the  deponent  \eriiy  beliex  es  that  if  a  (hday  of  one   inonth   is    LJianted   he   can 
procnri-    tin-    saiil  witnesses    .by    jjoinu    liimself    to    tjuebec  ,  and   Toronto,    and    that,  at 
'he  expir.ition  of  the  said  <li'lay,  the  above-tiatned  witnesses  will  be  present  at  .the  Cmrt 
'.  to  !_'iM-  e\  idem-e  in  fa\  cir  of  the  airU-eil.  ■  .  . 

'  And  the  di-p.ineht  lias  signed.  ■  • 

^wuril   bi-foie  Mie.  at    l!.-;;il,;i.  tlli,  ( 
L'Ist  dav  of  .lilU.    lSS"i.  I 


(Siiilied), 


F.  .X.   LK-MIKIX. 


(JsiUIUll  », 


DIXli;   WATSON.  fV.-X. 


V      I   u-^^^'I'^    •      ■       '  Tin:  i,M   KK.N    ..V.   LdllS  RIKL. ' 

Nmtli  West    lerritories.  i  '         .      ■  . .-         ■  . 

/•  tin  trial  undiM  sHb-ictioii    "i    of  jSectioii   7<)   fif  the   North- West  Territories'  Act  of 
l."^SH,   before  their  lioiim-,    llunh    Kichafdson,    J^.  M.,' and  Henry  LeJeuiie,  J.  P.,  and  a- 
■.liiry  of  si\.  '  .     . 

■I.  ( 'hiirle-  l''it/.patrick.  of  the  city  of  Quebec,  Oiu'  Of  the  counsel  of   the  above-iialned 
'  Louis  Itiel,  make  oath  and  say  :    ,  '  " 

1.  1  uas  n-laiiieil  fitr  the  defence  of  the  s.aid  Lijuis  Kiel  in  the  month  of  June  last 
passed,  ai  d  immediately  tlieieafter  put  myself  in  communication  with  my  -aid  client 
and  others,  with  the  view  of  .obtaining,'  such  information  as  would  enable  me  to' set  up 
such  defence  as  in  the  intere.st  of  my  said  client  would  be  most  beueHcial. 

-.  <  »wini;  to  the  distance  of  (Quebec  ivjinti  uly  client,  it  was  not  until  the  iOth  day 
•  if  the  said  month  of  June  I  was  instructed  by  tht/accused,  and  then  oidy  partially. 

;i.     Since  the  receipt  of  tlie  .said  instruction,  I   have  been  dilit(ently  endeavoi'inj,'  to   , 
obtain  the  atteiulance 'of   the  witnesses  for  the  accused,  but  as  he,_the  accused,  is  jt  man 
of  little   or  no  means,  and    had  to  rai.se   funds  for  his  defence   through  his  friends  in  tlie 
I'rovince  of  Quebec,  it  was  an  utter  impossifiility  to  obtain  their  attendance  in  tiine-ror 
his  trial. 

4.      1  have  been  instruited  since  my  arrival  in  Regina,  that  the  requisite  funds  have 

.  ^-' 

\ 


10 


been  raised  to  secure  tlie  attendance  of  the  saitl  witnesses  for  tlie  defence,  wlio  are  mate- 
rial and  necessary,  and  without  whose  evidence  we  cannot  proceed  to  ti-ial. 

\/i4.i^j),  I y  i        S-  *  Some  qi  tlie  facts  intended  to  be  proved  by  sucli  witnesses,  are  tliat  the  accused 
j  •  ',       fcr  sevei-al  years  was  insane,  and  liad  to  be  conti^ied  in  a  lunatic  asylum  in  the  Province 
Vn^^Kifj'^i'^  Quebec,   and  would  get  deranged  ;  also,  the  circumstances  under  which   the  accuse(l 
left  his  home  in  Montana,  and  came  to  this  country,  u-t  the  solicitations  of  his  friends, 
in   the  year   one   thousand   eight   hundred   and    eighty-five  ;  the  nature  of  the  agitation 
in  the  North- West,  and  the  constant  advice  given  by  the  accused  to  limit  the  agitation  to      i 
constitutional  means    and,  peaceful   measures  ;  the  desire    expressed   by  the  accused  to      - 
leave   the  country  in   tite   month  of    February    last   passed,    and   the  ()bjecti<ins  of    the 
people  to  his  returning  to  Montana  aforesaid  ;  that  the  alleged  rebellioif^is  connii(nue<l 
./      'and  conducted  under  the  direction  of  a  council  of  fourteen  persons,  of  which  council  the 
'         prisoner  was  not  a  member  ;  and   that   he    did   not  participate   in   any    <'iigageiiieiit   or 
commit  or  countena   ce  any  overt  act  of  treason. 

0.      These  facts  can  be  proved  by  (iabriel  J>uiiioiit,  Michel  l)uinas,  Napoleon  Naull, 
"^    Dr.  Roy!  of  Quebec,  Dr.  Clark,  of  Toronto,  and  J)r.  Valh'-e,  of  Quebec,  whose  attendance 
at  the  trial   I  verily  ,belie»'e  can  be  secured,  if  sutticient  time  for  that  purpose  is  granted 
to  the  defence.  ,    ^  » 

-  •  ■  \J  (.Signed),  .  .    -  - 

•        C.   FITZPATKIC'K. 
"•■  Sworii'before  me,  at  Reginit,  this  |  .  •  * 


LMstday  of  July,  ISS.-i. 
( Signed  ),^ 


I 


1)1X11-:   \V.\TS()X,  Cl^rh: 


\  ■  -^    ^  .■     ■    ' —  .     ■  ■ 

I    ■  '•  '  .  Rk(iixa,  tuesday,  July,  the  'If^ih,  18!S."». 

The  Court  met  at  ten  o'clock  a.m. 

MvK.  Osi.Elt  opened  the  ease  to  the  Jury.     '':.-.  '  ^ 

The  witiies.ses  were  then  called  as  follows:  '  : 

Dr.  John  H.  WiLLoucnnv,  sworn,  examined  by  Mi'.  l*i>binson.  ■    ,_,^ 

^  Q.   YoU  are  a -medical  man  ? — .\.    Yes. 

Q.   Where  are  you  practising  ?-   A.   At  Saskatoon. 

Q.    How  long  there  \ — A.   I  ha\e  been  there  since  two  years  last  May. 
^Q.   How  far  is  Saskatoon  from  Batoclie  ?     A.   About  .50  miles. 

Q.   Do  you  remember  going  to  ISatoche  about  the  ItStli  March  last  .'     A.   I  do. 

Q.    Did  you  go  alone? — A.   No,  I  was  accom|)anied  by 

Q.   By  whom  ? — A.   A  half-breed  named  Norbert  Welsh. 

Q.  And  at  wiiat  house  did  you  go  to  stop  wheii  you  got  to  Batoclie  ?  -A.  I  stcq.p<-d 
with  George  KeVr. 

Q.   Is  that  the  Kerr  Bi-others  ? — A.  Yes,  at  their  store. 

Q.-  Did  you  hear  anything  of  any  anticipated  difficulty  ?     A.    I  <lid. 

Q.  Where  ? — A.   I  heard  it  at  Mr.  Kerr's  store. 

•      Q.   How  li'rtig  did  you  remain  at  Batoclie  then  ? — A.   TwotM)'s.- 

Q.  You  went  on  the  ICth,  when  did   you  leave  it?-— A.    1   remained   over  the   17th 
and  left  upon  the  18th. 


\- 


11 


/ 


Q.   Did  you  see  any  one  on  the  17tli,  did  you  hear  anything  then  of  any  disturbance 
anticipated,  did  you  hear  any  rumour  of  possible  difficulties  ? — A.   I  did  hear  rumors. 

Q.  When  you  left  Batoche/wTiom  did  you  go  with? — A.  I  left  with   Mr.  Welsh 
and  Mr.  Macintosh. 

Q.   Had  Welsh  any  object  in  view,  did  he  desire  to  see  any  one  from   Batoche? — A.  . 
We  were  lea\ing  Batoche  for  Saskatoon. 

Q.  You  were  with  Welsh  ?—x\.  Yes. 

Q.   Was  lie  desirous  to  see  any  one,    as   far  as   he    explainetl   to   you  .' — A.   He  \<-as 
desirous  of  seeing  Riel. 

Q.   Did  you  go  v  ith  liini  for  that  purpose  ? — A.  T  did. 

Q.    Where  did  lie  e.vpect  to  tind  Rit-l  then  ? — A.   I  hardly  know  where   he   e.\i>ected 
to  find  him,  he  was  informed  on  th»  road  by  Gabriel  Dumont   as   to   Kiel's  whereabouts. 

Q.  Did  you  find  Riel  ?— A.  Yes.  ^ 

Q.  Where '!  -  A.   At  tlie  house  of  a  Half-breed  nrtnied  Hocheleau. 

Q.  What  is  his  christian  name? — A.    I  don't  reiuend<er. 

Q.  How  far  south  of  Batoche  was  that  ?      A.    Six  or  .se\  eu  iiiiU'S. 

Q.  Did  you  know  Kiel  at  that  time  ? — A.   I  had  inet  him  before. 

Q.  How  long  before  ? — A.    About  four  months. 

Q.  About  the  D;^cend)er  or  January  before  ? — A.   Yes,  in  November,  -I  believe. 

Q.  Whereabouts  f  — A.  I  met  liim  at  the  housi'  of  Moise  Ouellette.- 

Q.    Had  you  been    introduced  and  spoken  to  him    then  ?      A.    I    had   spoken   to  him 
then.  4 

Q.  You  knew  jiim  by  siglit .'   -A.  Yes.  - 

Q.    When  you  met  him  at  Rocheleau's,  did  he  say  anything  to  you  .'—A.    He  did; 

Q.   Wiiat  did  he  say  ?--A.    Well,  he  told  iw  the  time  had- come  for  the  Half-l>ree<ls 
to  a.ssert  their  rights.  • 

Q.   Do  you  Tnean  that  was  the  first  thing  or  almost  the  first    thing  he   said   to  you, 
did  he  ask  you  any  (juestion  at  all^ — A.    When' I  entered   the   house,  I  spoke  to  him.      I 
sat  opjiosite  to  liim,  and  very  little  was  said   for  a  few  moments.     Presently,  he  got  up         'T 
and  j)as(jed  in  front  of  me,  and  lie  suddenly  stopi)ed  and  turned  to  me  and  said  ;  The  time 
has  come  wlien  it  would  have  been  well  for  a  man  to  haye   been   good  or  to   lia\e   led  'a       \^ 
good  lif6.  '      .   •       , 

Q.   Did  he  say  anymore  then  ? — A.   I  replied  to  that. 

Q.  What  did  you  say,  do  you  remember  ? — A.  I  cannot  remember  what  I  did  say,    . 
something  to  the  effect  it  would  be  better  for  a  man   to   always    lead  a  good    life   and  be 
prepared  for  any  emergency. 

Q.   What  took  place  next  % — A.  Just  at  that  time  a  large   crowd  of   men  drove   up 
to  the  door  of  Roclieleau's  house.  _  ,  .       '  ' 

Q.   How  many  do  you  think  ? — A.   I  would  judge  about  CO  or  70. 

g.   Were  tliey  Half-breeds  ?— A.    Half-breeds. 

Q.  Were  they  armed  ?  -A.  They  were. 

Q.   All  armed,  as   tir  as  you   observed  ? — A.  No,  there    were   some   who   were  not 
armed. 


f 


12 


c/ 


ii.  Were  the  iiiiijority  luiiK-d  ,'  A.  Tlie  majority  were  armed,  ;1  only  remember 
seeing  one  who  was  not  armed.  1- 

Q.  What  were  the  majority  armed  with? — A.  The  niajority,  I  |l>elieve,  had  shot 
guns,  appeared  to  nie  to  be  shot  guns.     They  were  outside  :aud  I  was  iti  tlie  house. 

Q.  This  would  liave  Iteeu  on  tlie  17th  Mareh,  if  I  understand  it  li;,'htly  ?  A.  The 
l.'^tlk      It  was  on  a  Wednesday,  I  Relieve,  the  IStli.  , 

Q.  When  tlii.-i  iiowd  eanie,  did  the  jirisoner  say  anythinj;  to  you  .'  A.  It  was  just 
as  they  drove  up  he  addressed  me.  He  then  said  tlie  Half  breeds  (he  and  his  peojile,  I 
lielieve,  he  put  it)  intended  to  strike  a  blow  to  gain  their  riglits.  . 

Q.  Did  you  make  any  answer  .'  -A.  Ye.s,  I  replied  there  were  ditterent  ways  to 
giiin  their  rights,  the  white  settlers  took  a  difl'eient  way  in  having  their  grievances 
settled.  He  replied  no  one  knew  better  than  lie  did  as  to  the  grievances  of  thtij  .settlers. 
And  he  said  :  f  and  my  people  have  time  and  time  again  jiotitioneil  the  ( !(»verilment  to 
rtdress  our  grievances,  and  he  said  :  The  only  answer  we  received  each  time  han  been  an 
increase  of  jiplice.  /^  j 

^  I       Q.   He  said  they  had  time  and  time  again  petitioned   the   Uovernment  foB  -i*flre.ss, 
and  the  only  answer  they  reeei\ed  each  time  wius  an  increa.se  of  the  police  ? — Ai  Yes. 

Q.  What  next  did  he  say? — A,  He  said  ;  Now  T  have  my  jmlijc-,  referrii|ig  to  the 
uieii  at  the-  door.  '-  ; 

■'.  Q.  Those  fiO  or  TD  men  .'    -A.    Yes.    He  pointed  to  them  and  he  said  :  You  .'<ee  now 
have  my  poli^L-e.      In  one'week   tjiat  little   (iovernmeut   police  will   be  wijied   out   of 


I 


existenc 


my  poliVe. 
ce.'     ■  ,    \_^^ 


\~n 


Q.    Well,  what  next?      .\.  .]  believe,  I  .said,  if   he  intended  to  attack   tlie   jiolice  or 
Use  a  rebellion,  they  should  look  after  the  jirotection   of   the  settler.s,  there  being  no  ill 
wdl  among  the.,jiet tiers  towards  the  Half-breeds.  .  ; 

Q.    W'Imt  next  f     A.    He    told    me    i    was   from    Saskatoon,  and   as   a   settler  from 
Saskatoon,   t  liad  no    light    to   speak    for    the   welfare    of   the    settlers,  and    charged    the 
.settlers  at  Saskat<><^>n  with  having  ottered  to  aid  the  mounted  police,  jit  I'attleford,  to  put 
.<lo\vn  an  Indian  j-ising  last  autumn. 

Q.    ll^'pK'at  that.— ^A.    Hi-  said  that   1,  as  a  citizen  of  Saskatoon,  had  ito  right  to  ask 
jjrotection,  liecause...  ■   r  ■  . 

Q.  Because  the  people  of  Saskatoon  had  aideil  the  police  ?   -A.  He  said  tliPy  ofl'ered 
iii»-n  tp  kUl  the  Indians  unil  Half-breeds. 

,  Q.  That Was  the  n/ason  wily  lie  said  the  settlei's  of  Saskatoon  liad  no  rig|it  to  pro- 
tection ? — A.  He  said  :  We  will  now  show  Saskatoon  or  the  people  of  Sa.skatoOii  who  will 
do  the  killint,'. 


/ 


Q.  Oo.oir. — A.  He  made  a  stiitement  as  to  my  kno^ledgi-  of  his  rebellibn,  that  is 
of  the  former  reliellion  in  1H70,  and  he  said  that  lie  was  an  American  citizen  living  in 
Montana,  and  that  tlie  Half-in-eeds  had  sent-  a  deputation  there  to  liring  liiiii  to  this 
country.^  .  _  ^  ■ .  i 

I    ■■ -Q.   Wha^  else  ?   -A.   That   in   asking  him   to  come  they  li-.id  told   their  pjans,  and 
•that  he  had  replied    to  them  to  tlier  ert'ect  that  their  plans  were  useless, 

I       Q.  Did  he  say  \vhat  the  ])lans  were  ] — A.   No,  I  believe  not,  but  that   he   had   told 
'  them  _that  he  had  plans,  ami. that  if  they  would _assi.st  him  to  curry  out  those  plans  he 
would  go  with  them. 

j      .Q.-  Did  he  tell  you  what  those  plans  were  ?  -A.  Yes,  he  did.  .     v 

I       Q.  What. were  they  ?— A. ..He  said  the  time  had  now  come  when  those  pla^is  were 
.liiature,  that  his  prpdumation  \^^ls  at  Pembina,  and  tliat   aa.  soon  as  he  struck  the  fifst 


lilow  liere,  tliat  prnclaniation  would  go  fortli,  aiul  lie  was  to  lo?  joined  l>v  Half-bi-eeds  amr     ■ 
Indians  and  tliat  the  United  States  was  at  liis  baik. 

Q.  Did  lie  tell  you  anytliini;  more  ?  -A.  He  said  that  kuowin;^  him  and  his  \tast 
history,  I  niijjht  know  that  he  nieiuit  what  he  saiil. 

Q.   Anythinj,'  else  ? — -A.   He  said  that  the  time   had   lonie  now  when  he  was  to  rule    / 
this  country  or  perish  in  the  atteiiipt. 

Q.  (Jo  on.  —A.  We  had  a  Ion;;  conversation  then  as  to  the  rights  of  the  Halt'-l>n!«*ds  ' 
and  lie  laid  out  his  plans  as  to  the  ;;(>vernment  of  the  eountry.  '  ! 

Q.  What  did  he  say  as  to  the  government  of  tlie  country  !  A.  Thev  were,  to  have 
a  new  goveirnnient  in  tlie  N'ortli-West.  It  was  to  Ke  composed  ofdwl  fearing  men,  they 
would  have.no  .such  parliament  as  the  house  at  <  )ttawa.  ' 

Q.  Anythii\g  else  ?  -.\.  Then  he  stated  how  he  intended  to  divide  the  countr%' iljito 
.seven  portions.  ' 

Q.  In  what  nianwer  .'  .V.  It  was  divided  into  seven  portions  hut  as  to  who  were 
to  have  the  seven,   I  caftuot  say.  - 

Q.   You  mean  to  say  you  cannnr   say  how  these  seven  weie  to  he  apportionatecl  f-^ 
■A.   Yes,  he  mentioned  |!a\arians,  Poles,  Italians,  (Jermans,  Irish.   .There   was   to  he  a. 
new  Ireland  in  the  Xortli  We.st. 

y.  An,vthing  more  ?  Did  he  say  anylliiiii;  ahoiit  himself  or  his  own  plans  ?  A.  I 
recollect  nothing  further  at  the  jire.sent  time. 

Q.   You  say  he  referred  to  the  previous  veliellion  of  1S70,  what  did  he  .say  in  regard       ) 
■  io  that  '! — A.    He  referred  to  that  and  he  said  that  that  rebellion,  the  rebellion  of  tifteen      ^ 
jrears'ago,  would  not  be  a  patch  n]H>n  this  one. 

Q.  Did  lie  .say  anything  further  with  regard  to  that  !  -A.  He  did  ;  he  .spoke  of  the 
luiinber  that  had  Ix'en  killed  in  that  rebellion. 

Q.    What  did  he   say  as  to  that  ? — A.   I  cannot  state  as  to  what  he  Sivid,  hnt  it  was 
.'to  the  etlect  that  this  rebellion  was  to  be  of  far  gn^atcr  e.vtent  than  the  former. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  to  th(^  men  who  were  there,  or  they  to  hiin  when  you  were  there  ! 
— Ai  There  were  several  men  there  when  the  cutter  drove  up  to  the  door.  The  majority 
of  thein  st<iye<l  outside  in  the  sleighs  and  some  of  them  came  in. 

Q.  Yes  1 — A.  They  spoke  in  French  which  I  did. not  understand  \ery  well,  but  I 
understood  him  to  tell  them  to  go  down  to  Champagne's  house,  and  I  understood  him  to 
be  sending  them  there  :  most  of  the  men  then  drove  of!"  and  a  few  sta.yed  behind. 

Q.  You  cannot  .siiy  what  they  asked  him  as  your  know  ledge  of  frencli  does  not  • 
enable  you  to  repeat  the  (piestion  they  asked  him  1 — A.  No,  I  cannot  say.  /~' 

Q.  Now  what  did  you  do  then  ?  Which  le?t  first,  you  or  he  ?— ^A.  We  had  dinner. 

Q.  This  conversation  took  place  before  dinner,  or  during  dinner'f — A.  Partly  before, 
during  and  after  dinner. 

Q.  You  had  dinner  and  what  took  place  ne.\t  ? — A.  Riel  prepared  to  go  then  to  follow 
the  others. 

Q.  Well,  what  next  1 — A.  .tVs  he  was  leaving  he  asked  me,  he  stated  personally  he 
had  no  ill  feeling  towards  me,  but  tliat  I  was  a  Canadian,  but  he  put  it  in  this  w^ay  :  as  a 
Canadian  I  was  a  part  of  the  Canadian  Government,  and  in  our  hearts  there  could  be  no 
friendship  towards  each  other. 

Q.  ^Vell,  did  you  go  before  or  after  him  t — A.  He  left  before  me. 

Q.  Did  he  say  where  he  was  going  1 — A.  No,  he  did  not. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  ? — A.  I  left  immediately  after  he  did  and  went  on  towards 
.Clark's  Crossing  at  the  telegraph  oi&ce. 


/, 


14 


Q.   For  wliat  puriK)se  ? — A.  To  make  known  what  I  had  heard.  -': 

Q.  To  whom  ? — A.  My  iiiteutiou  was  to  connnunicnte  with  Rej^ina,  but  when  I  {,'ot 
to  Claries  Crossini',  the  wire  was  down  between  Clark's  (^'rossin;^  and  Qu'Appelle.  I 

*  Q.   How  far  was  it  from  Clark  s  (Jrossin;;  tliat  you  had  taken  dinner  ?— A.  Soniet1iin<; 

over  40  miles.  ^  1  >: 

Q.   Was  that  oi»,yoiir  way  to  Saskatoon  ?      A.   It  was.  ~  i 

Q.  Then  you  intended  to  communicate  witli  Regina,  but  wlien  you  got  to  Clark's 
Cl'ossing  the  telegraph  was  down  ? — A.   Yes.  .' 

\    Q.   What   did   you   do  ?-~'A.   The   only  communication  was  with   Hattleford,  and' I 
inf<>rnied  Col.  Morris.  .,.._ 

Q.  Who  is  Coi.  Morrts  ? — A.  He  was  in  charge  of  the  police  at  Battleford  at  that, 
time.  f  . 

Q.   You  informed  him  of  what  you  had  heard  1 — A-    Yes.i.  1 

Q.  What  was  Mr.  Welsh  <lott»j*ltn  this  time  ?  Was  he  present  at  your  conversation 
with  Riel  1     A.   He  w^is. 

Q.   Did  he,  in  Kiel's  presence,  tollyou  uaything  or  not  ? — A.  .No,  I  lielieve  not. 
Q.   Have  you  told  me  your  whole  conversation  with   Riel  lis  far  as  you  remember  ?  ' 
— A.   I  remember  one  point  in  regard  to  t)rangeisiii. 

Q.^  What  was  that?— A.  As  Riel  was  leaving  he  expres.sed  liti  opinion,  he  .stilted  tliey 
■would  have  no  oraugeism  in  the  ?ft)i4ji-\Vest.  I  said  I  hoped  by  orangeism  he  did  not 
mean  'Protestanti.sm.  He  turnfed  excitedly  and  said  he  was  giiid  1  liad  mentioned  it, 
that  he  certainly  understowl  the  dirterence  between  Protestantism  and  orangeism,  and  he 
then  spoke  of  the  ditterent  reHgions  and  l>eliet's  and  illustrated  it  by  the  example  of  a 
tree — the  triM'  church  was  the  large  branch  of  the  tree,  and  the  others,  as  they  departed 
from  it  gtit  weaker,  up  toj^lu*  top  of  the  tree. 

-Q.-  He  illustrated  his  ideas  of  the  different  religious  bodies  in  that  way  ?  Have  you  told 
nie  all  you  can  reuiember  of  your  conversation  with  him  ?  Whilst  speaking  of  sending  the 
telegram  bust  fall,  ortei'ing  to  aid  the  police.  .  .  . — ..V.  Sending  which  telegram  't  He  stated 
the  Saskatoon  jieople  that  he  bad  been  furnished  with  a  copy  of  the  telegram  sent  by 
the  Saskato<in  j)e(>ple  to  ISattlefoid  last  fall,  otiering  to  kill  oil'  the  llalf-breiHls  and 
Indians,  and  that,  in  consei|uenci',  the  Saskatoon  pcopje  had  no  right  to  iV'k  for  tuiy  pro- 
tection ;  and  that  was  not  the  only  telegram  thiv  had  .sent,  that  about  11  days  before,  I 
think,  he  .said  that  they  had  again  made  such  an  olier.  [  mean  that  the  people  of  Saskatoon 
had  again  niaile  such  an  otter. 

—        Q.  Now  is  there  e\erytliing  el.se  he  said  to  yoii  that  you  can  remember,  or  hive  you 
told  nre  everything  ?       A.    I  believe  I  have  told  you  everything.    '      ,        ■;-  ; 

Q.  You  went  back  to  Clark's  (Jrossing,  iuid  conniiitnicatid  what  you;  had  h^ard,  to 
Col.  Morris,  and  from  that  time  onwards,  where  were  you  .' — .\  I  was  at  {Saskatoon  and 
C'jurk's  Cros.sing.  .         '  { 

|Q.  Then,  do  you  know  anything  more  of  youi-  ofrned  knowledge  of  ttiel,  i4  l-onuec- 
tioiil  with,  this  rebellion.  T  mean  not  what  you  ha\e  beard  ?  -A.  No,  I  !knov"  nothing 
further.  ■  '  ■ 

-E.xamined  by  Mr.  Fitzp.\ti!k:k.  j  ; 

Q. .  If  I  mistake  not,  you  said  you  saw  Riel  for  the  tirst  time,  about  the' month 
of  November,  l^!^<^2 — A.    About  November. 

Q.  Didjifiiu  see  hiiii  for  any  length  of  time  then  ?— A.  I  did  not.        "  '.■ 

I  Q.  JDid    you — you    never    saw    him   again  till  the   17th  of  March,    1865?— A.   I 

•JjelifeVe  not. 


15  i^^  '  ■  .   . 

Q.  During;  tlmt  interval  of  time,  yon  are  aware  tliere  was  an  agitation  going  on 
tJirougliout  that  sci-tldn  of  conntry  ]     A.   I  was  {>erfectly  well  aware  of  it. 

Q.   The  first  time  you  ever  lieard  of  any  reference  to  an  appeal  to  arms  in  cojv 
with  this  aijitation,  was  during  tliis  interview,  in  March  last,  with  Kiel  ? — Ar^hat  was 
til.'  first  I    heard. 

^l-   Kiel  was  iiii^irmed  on  that  occasion  >,  —A.    He  was. 

«J.   What  ha-il  he  with  him  .'     A.   As  lii>4j>ft  the  house 

Q.  I  am  speaking  of  tlie  time  you  had  th(!  conversation  in  the  house.  Was  he 
armed  tlien  ? — A.    He  was  not  arme<l  at  that  time. 

1  Q.   VVlien  you  first  liegau  to  talk  witli   Kiel,  he  first   mentioned  to  you  the  fact  tliat 

I    it  now  became  m-cessary  for  all   men  to  reflect   that  it  was  a  good  thing  to  live  well? — 
■     A.   That  was  the  first  remark. 

)  Q.   Shoi'tly  after  he  made  that  remark  he  placed  up  and  down  the  floor?     A.  That 

WHS  liefore  he  made  the  remark. 

<^.  Then,  he  liegan  telling  you  ahout  his  intention  to  subdivide  these  provinces  into 
sexcn  '.      A.    He  <lid  not. 

<^.    lie   told   you   lie    intended   giving  the  province  of   Quel)ec  to  the  Pru.ssians  or 
"i  ilermans.'     A.    He  did  not. 

I  .  t^.    Oid  he  .say  anytliing  as  to  the  manner  he  was  going  to  divide,  did  he  refer  to  the 

1  Itiivarians,  Hungsfrians  and  other  jieoples  ?--A.   He  did. 

[  (^.    What  did  he  say  he  was  goinj;  to  do  with  tliese  people  ? — A.  They  were  going  to 

/  Jissist    him   in  thi'   lelnlliKU.  liefore  this   war  was  ovei-,  and   that  they  would   have  their- 
|Mirtion  of  the  country. 

1<^.    \\\  eimntry  what  did  he  allude  to?     A.  The  North  West  Territories. 
<4>.   Exclu.--ively  .'     A.    .\s  1  undeistood  it. 

I  tj.    Woiilil  vfiu  now  indicate  to. lis  the  diflerent  peoples  he  e\pected  to  assist  liim  ! — 

)    A.   The  Irish  nf  the  I'liitcd  State>,  the  (iermans,  the  Italians,  Bavarians  and  Poles,  and 
.  liernwTrraiid  Inlanil. 

<^>.  Wf  lia\e  had  (iermanyand  Ireland  twice? — A.  Well,  he  put  jt  twice.  He  put 
the  Irish  and  (Jermaiis  of  the  I'nited  States,  then  Germany  itself  was  to  come  into  line. 

i  i).   The  l>a\aiiaiis  also  .'-    A.    Yes. 

!"•  l^.   The  lliiiii;aiiaiis  .'    -A.    I  doni  know.     I  don't  Uelieve  he  said  anything  as  to  the 

'   Hungarians. 

I  (^>.   The  I'olr.-,  did  he  intend  to  ;;i\c  them  a  diance  too? — A.    He  did. 

<>.  He  alsii  stated  to  you  he  was  ijiviiig  the  .lews  a  jioition  of  the  province  ? — A. 
I    Xot  that  1  renu-mlier,  lie  <lid  not  nieiitidn  them  while  I  was  there.  j 

<.,>.  Did  he  e.\plain  to  you,  at  that  time,  as  to  what  progress  he  had  ijiade  towards 
,  coin|ileting  iiegotiirtions  he  had  had  with  these  peoples  for  their  assistance? — A.  He  did 
I  not. 

(j).  You  did  not  think  it  necessary  to  ask  how  he  intended  to  carry  out  this  agree- 
ment, or  if  he  liad  made  any  endeavors  to  have  an  understanding  ahout  tliis  ? — A.  I  did. 

<^>.  What  did  he  say  about  this  ?  A.  I  tried  to  find  from  him  his  plans,  'o  get  what 
information  I  could,  and  he  seemed  unwilling,  he  took  good  care  to  unfold  none  of  his 
plans.     /^  '  *• 

Q.  Y'ou  said  he  had  unfolded  his  plans  as  to  sulxlividing  the  province  1 — A.   Y'es. 

Q.  Did  you  then  ask  hinj  if  had  entered  into  negotiations  with  these  different 
peoples,  in  order  to  get  their  assistance  1 — A.  No,  I  did  not  ask  him  that. 


'^ 


Hi 

Q.  You'did  not  ask  liiiii  how  he  p.\j)ectp<l  to  get  thcso  people  into  tlio  rountr\ 
either,  did  you  ? — A.  No,  I  did  not.  , 

Q.  'Don't  you  think  that  would  have  lieen  a  very  necesjsary  iiuestioii,  to  put  in  order 
t3  ,a;et  at  the  hottoni  of  his  plans  ? — A.   I  believe  not. 

Q.  You  thauyht  all  liis  plans  were  very  reasonal)lf  and  acfcptable  .'  -.\.  I  had  my 
own  opiiiion  regarding  them. 

Q.  What  is  that  o|)inio^,  he  good  enough  to  let  lis  know  it?  ^ly  opinion  at  that 
time  was  that  that  was  about  the  last  that  would  be  heard  of  H. 

Q.  You  never  had  heard  anything  of  these  plans  liefore  ? — A.    From  him  i 

Q.  From  liim  or  aiiyone  else  ? — A.  Nothing  of  tliat  kind  with  regard  to  this 
country. 

Q.  In  regard  to  the  plan  he  submitted  to  you,  did  you  evei-  hear  ot  su^li  a  plan 
before  ?■ — A.   No,.  I  never  did.  /  '     ■. 

Q.   Did  it  stike  you  as  being  at  all  peculiar  I      \.    Katlier  a  little. 

Q.   When  he  spoke  to  you  on  religious  subjects,  did  yon  understand   liiin  to  tell  ymi 
tliaf,  in  his  religion,  Christ  was  the  foundation,  and  lepiesented  the  trunk  of  the  tree,  and 
the  different  religions  might  be  considered  as  representing  the  lu-am-lies  <if  the  ti'ee  !    -• 
,  A.  I  did.  \         ■ 

.,        Q.   Did  he  .'^y    what  position  he  occupied    with   reftienee    to    the   tiunk   or;  with 
reference  to  Christ  ? — A.   He  stated  his  Church  was  the  strongi'st  branch.  r 

Q.  During  all  this  tiuis,  during  all  this  conversation,  I  think  you  stated  Mr.  Welsli 
was  present,  was  he  riot  ?— A.  He  was. 

Q.   Where  is  ilr.  Welsh  now  ? — A.   I  believe  he  is  at  Fort  (Ju'.\pj>elle. 

Q..  That  is  about  40  miles  from  here? — A.   About  50  miles. 

Q.  When  you  .said  Mr.  lliel  explained, liis  religion  was  the  strDUgest  branch,  diil  In- 
say  what  liis  religif)n  was  ? — A.   He  did,  he.  said  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

Q.    He  did  not  say  anything  fui-ther  than  that  about  his  religion  ? — A.   No..      > 

Q.  Did  he  speak  anything  about  the  Pope  ? — A.  No»  1  believe  not.  Nothing  that  J 
can  remember.  .v 

Q.  You  don't  remember  anything  further  of  this  conversatiq^i  with  Riel,  except  what 
you  have  stated  ?^A.   I  remember  nothing  further. 

Q.  Of  course,  the  plans  he  unfolded  to  you  about  the  con(|uest^)f  the  North-'West, 
did  not  strike  you  as  anything  extraordinary  |or  a  man  in  his  position  to  assert  ] — A.  It 
did  certainly.  , 

Q.   It  appeared  to  you  a  very  rational  proposition  1 — A.   No,  it  did  iot. 

E.xamined  by  Mr.  Robinson. 

Q.   You  said  Riel  was  not  armed  in  the  house,  did  30U  .see  him  arnuCl  at  all  ? — A.   I 
saw  him  armed  as  he  drove  off  from  the  liou.se,  he  was  supplied  with  a  gub  as  he  got  inta 
,the  sleigh.         ' '  '  y 

Q.  Do  j'ou  know  by  whom  he  was  supplied  with  a  gun? — A,  No,  I  don't  know.  I 
could  not  say  by  whoni  it.  was  given  him. 


-> 


I 


TiiOM.\s  Mackay,  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  Robinson. 

Q.   Mr.  Mackay,  where  do  you  live  ? — A.  Prince  Albert. 

Q.  You  were  born  in  this  country  ? — A.  Yes. 

j        Q.  How  long  have  you  lived  in  Prince  Albert  1 — A.  I  have  been  in  Prince  Albert 
'district  since  July,  1873.     f 


17 

Q.  You  reiueiiiluT,  of  course,  the  disturlwince  which  took  jilace  in  March  last?- — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  when  you  first  heard  of  that  and  when  you  first  took  any' part 
in  conset|uence  of  it'! — A.  1  had  heard  of  tlie  ajjitation  for  some  time  in  the  early  part  of 
March,    1  heard  that  the  jirisoiier  was  inciting  tlie  Half-breeds  tp  take  up  arms. 

y.  Well?- -A.  On  the  morning  of  the  liOtli,  Captain  Motfatt  and  Captain  Moore 
came  to  my  house,  between  two  or  thretj.  o'clock  in  the  moniins;,  and  they  brought  a  lettei' 
fro^n  Major  Crozier,  stating  that  he  had  been  informed  on  good  authority  that  the  French, 
under  tln^  leadership  of  the  prisoner,  luul  risen  and  taken\Mr.  Lash  and  some  other 
prisoners,  and  had  robbed  the  stores  of  ^^'alters  and  Daker  and  Kerr  Brothers.  He  also, 
in  the  same  conimunii.  .ion,  asked  for  a  detachment  of  some  GO  to  70  volunteers  to  go  up 
'  to  reinforce  the  police,  at  Fort  Carlton. 

'  Q.   Well .' — A.   I  went  down  to  t!ie  town  and  went  to  a  numl>er  of  the  people  there 

and  told  them  what  we  had  heard,  and  asked  them  to  meet  us,  in  James  Elliott's  rooms,  iu 
town.  We  met  there  and  decided  —  we  thought  that  we  could  not  spare  the  number/pf 
men,  as  we  had  to  look  aftei'  the  town  and  our  families.  —  We  went  out  with  something 
like  40  men.  Captain  Moore  enrolled  40  men,  and  we  started  about  twa  o'clock  in  the 
afternoon  of  that  day. 

Q.    For  what  place  ■' — .-V.   Fort  Carlton. 

y.    How  far  was  Fort  Carlton  from  Prince  Albert?- — A.   Between  40  and  .^O  miles. 

I,).  When  did  you  get  to  Carlton  N- A.  We  arrived  to  Carlton  between  ten  and 
elven  that  uight. 

g.   What  day  was  that  ?— A.  The  20th.  ,  /    ' 

Q.  Fort  Carlton  was  then  held  liy  a  force  of  Mounted  Police,  under  Major  Crozier  .' 
—A.   "Yes. 

-^    Q.  You  reported  to  him  1 — A.  Yes,  reported  to  him. 

Q.  Hill  you  remain  there  that  night? — A.  When  I  arrived  there,  I  found  Mr. 
Mitchell,  from  'i)uck  Lake,  was  at  Fort  Carlton.  He  had  a  letter  from  Mr.  Kiel,  I 
lielieve.  'i'lie  letter,  I  think,  was  regarding  the  surrender  of  Fort  Carlton.-  1  did- not  see 
'■*     When  1  left  Prince  .Vlbert,  I  had  decided  to  go  on  to  Batoche,  where  the  rebels  had 

ide  their  headiiuarters.     When  I  found   Mitchell  there,  he  asked  me  to  go  along  with 

m,  that  I  might  be  of  some  usi>. 

y.  For  what  purpose , did  you  decide  to  go  to  Batoche? — A.  To  seeTf^l  could  point 
out  to  them  the  danger  they  were  getting  into  in  taking  up  arms.  1  knew  a  great  many 
of  them  were  ignoi*a^it  and  did  not  know  what  they  wei-e  dping,  anil  I  thought  I  might 
induce  them  to  dispense.  I  went  to  see  if  1  could  be  of  any  use  in  preventing  any  outrage. 
An  hour  after  I  got  there,  I  went  to  Duck  Lake,and  we  found  two  or  three  of  Kiel's  men 
there,  Joseph  and  Baptiste  Arcand.  They  had  come  from  Batoche  to  meet  Mr.  Mitchell. 
I  had  n  long  conversation  with  them,  and  I  invited  them  and  tried  to  induce  them  to 
drop  the  movement.  I  told  them  at  the  same  time  I  had  enrolled  as  a  volunteer,  that  I 
was  one  of  the  tirst  to  put  my  name  down  as  a  volunteer,  and  at  the  same  time  I  told 
them  that  any  thing  they  should  say,  1  should  report  to  the  Conniianding  Officer,  and'  if 
there  was  anything  they  did  not  wish  me  to  hear,  they  should  prepare  .themselves 
accordingly.  After  an  hour  or  two  of  con\ersation  witli  them,  they  went  on  to  report  at 
their  head  ijuarters,  that  I  was  coming  with  Mr.  ^Mitchell. 

Q.  They  went  before  you  to  report  that  you  were  coming-'l — A.  Y'es. 

Q.  Wliat  took  place  ? — A.  We  arrived  at  the  river  about  eight  or  nine  o'clock  in  the 
'  nioniing. 

Q.  You  had  travelled  all  night  ? — A.  Yes. 

,  Q.  You  did  not  arrive  that  night  ? — A.  No ;   when  we  got  to  the  fiver  I  found  a 


,       I  .       ■  18 

number  of  .arinetl  men  around  Walter  A-  Baker's  store.      A  eentrv  hailed  us  and  took  us 
to  the  guard. 

Q.  How  many  armed  men  did  you  find?— A.  Twohe  or  fifteen- out.side.  Tliere  were 
.some  more  in  the  store,  ■  . 

'  -vQ.   They  took  you  to  the  f,'uard  ?— A.   Tliere  was   a  sentry  ahout   fifteen   to  twenty 

%..  yards  on  this  side  of  the  store. 

Q.   Did  he  stop  you  ? — A,  He  stof)ped  us  and  took  us  on. 

.  Q.    I)id  you  know  his  name? — A.   No. 

i       '    Q.  AVhei-e  did  lu' lake  you  to  ? — A.  To  tlie  j,'uard  tiiat  was  stationed  around  Walter 
•t  Baker'.s  store. 

Q.  Well  ? — A.  Philip  Guardupuy  came  out  and  said  he  was  deputed  to  show  us 
across  tile  river. 

Q.  You  were  then  on  the  Nortliside  of  the  river  t — A.  Yes.  He  f;ot  into  the  slei^li 
and  took  us  across  to  their  council  room. 

Q.  Where  was  their  council  room  ?^- A.  The  council  room  at  that  tinie,  was  a  little 
building  just  south  of  the  church.  I  do  not  know  whom  it  belonged  to.  It  is  liurned 
down  now.      It  was  just  near  the  cliurch.  • 

Q.  Whom  did  you  find  in  the  council  room /i— A.  A  number  of  men. 

Q.  Armed  ?  —  A.  Yes,  they  were  armed. 

Q.  These  twelve  or  fifteen  men  you  liave  referred  to,  were  they  armed  ! — A.  Yes. 
Philippe  (ruardui)uy  was  not  armed,  but  the  rest  were.  We  went  into  the  council  room, 
and  I  went  around  the  table  and  among  them,  and  finally  was  introduced  to  the  prisoner. 
That  wa.s  the  tirst  time  I  had  seen  him. 

■'    Q.  Where  were  you  introduced  to  him  ? — A.   In  the  council  rooni. 

■Q.  "^ou  say  that  was  the  first  time  you  had  seen  hiiu  1 — A.   Yes.  , 

Q.'  Who  were  in  tiie  council  room  when  you  were  introduced  to  him  ?-^A;  Quite  a 
number.     They  were  moving  in  and  out. 

Q.   Would  you  say  there  was  a  dozen  men  in  the  room  .* — A.   Yes  ;    more  than  tliat_ 

.     -        Q.   Who  introduced  you  to  the  prisoner? — A.   Mr.  Mitchell  intro<luced  me  to  Mr- 
•.  Riel,  as  one  ofyfter  Majesty's  soldiers. 

Q.  That  i^  Mr.  Hilliard  Mitchell?— A.  Yes.  I  shook  hands  with' Mr.  Riel  and  had 
a  talk  with  him.  I  said  :  There  appears  to  be  great  excitement  here,  Mr.  Riel.  He 
said  :  No,  there  is  no  excitement  at  all,  it  was  simply  that  the  people  were  trying  to 
redress  their  grievances,  as  they  had  asked  repeatedly  for  their  rights,  and  that  they  had 
decided  to  make  a  demonstration.  I  told  him  that  it  was  a  very  dangerous  thing  to 
resort  to  arms.  He  said  lie  had  been  waiting  fifteen  long  years,  and  that  they  had  been 
imposed  uiion,  and  it  was  time  now,  after  they  had  waited  patiently,  that  their  rights 
^sliould  be  giveji,_ivs  the  poor  Half-breeds  had  been  imposed  upon.  I  disputed  his  wisdom 
and  advised  hiui  to  adopt  different  measures. 

Q.  Did  he  jspeak  of  himself  at  all  in  the  matter  ? — A.  He  accused  me  of  having 
neglected  my  people.   He  said,  if  it  was  not  for  men  like  me,  their  grievances  would  have 
been  redressed  long  ago.     That,  as  no  one  took  any  interest  in  these  people,  he  had  de- 
•  "cidetl  to  take  the  lead  in  the  matter. 

Q.  Well  ] — A.  He  accused  me  of  neglecting  them.  I  told  him  it  was  simply  a  mat- 
ter of  opinion.  That  I  had  certainly  taken  an  interest  in  them,  and  my  interest  in  the 
country  was  the  same  as  theirs,  and  that  I.  had  advised  them  time  and  again,  and  that  I 
had  not  neglected  them.  I  also  said  that  he  had  neglected  them  a  long  time,  if  he  took 
as  deep  an  interest  as  he  professed  to.     He  became  very  excited,  and  got  up  and  said  : 


.19 

I 

You  don't  know  what  we  are  after — it  is  blood  !  blood  !  We  want  blood  !  It  is  a  war  of 
«xterniination !  Everybody,  that  is  against  us  is  to  be  driven  out  of  the  country.  There 
were  two  curses  in  the  country,  the  government  and  the  Hudson  Bay  company. 

Q.  Yes  ?  — A.  He  turned  to  nie  and  said  I  was  a  ti-aitor  to  his  t;overnment.  That  I 
was  a  speculator  and  a  scoundrel  and  robber  and  thief,  dnd  I  don't  know  what  all. 

Q.  He  used  very  \  iolent  language  to  you  ?^— A.  Yes.  He  finally  said  it  was  blood, 
and  tlie  first  blood,  they  wanted  was  mine.  There  were  some  little  dishes  on  the  table,'  and 
he  got  hold  of  a  s])oon  and  said  :  You  have  no  blootl — you  are  a  traitor  to  your  people.  Your 
blood  is  frozen,  and  all  the  little  blootl  you  have  will  be  there  in  five  minutes,  putting  the 
spoon  up  to  my  face  and  pointing  to  it.  I  said  :  If  you  think  you  are  benefitting  your 
cause  by  taking  my  blood  you  are  (piite  welcome  to  it.  He  called  his  i)eople  and  the 
committee,  and  wanted  to  put  me  on  trial  for  my  life,  and  Garnot  got  up  and  went  to 
the  table  with  a  sheet  of  paper,  and  CJal)riel  Dumont  took  a  chair  on  a  syrup  keg,  and 
Kiel  called  up  the  witne.sses  against  ine.  He  said  I  was  a  liar,  and  he  told  them  that  1 
had  said  all  the  people  in  that  section  of  the  pountry  had  ri.sen  against  them.  He  said 
it  was  not  so,  that  it  was  only  the  people  in  tliis  town.  He  said  he  could  prove  that  I 
was  a  liar  by  Thomas  Scott. 

Q.  Was  Thomas  Scott  there  ? — A.   Yes  ;  he  'said  so'. 

Q.  Well  ? — A.  He  called  for  tJarnot,  the  secretary,  and  called  for  the  witnesses, 
and  they  would  a.sseut  to  what  he  said. 

Q.  Which  of  the  two  Arcands  was  there  ? — A.  Baptiste.  He  was  putting  words  to 
their  moutlis,  saying  things  I  did  not  understand  at  all.  "  When  I  saw  what  he  was  driv- 
ing at,  I  said  :  I  am  heie,  and  if  you  wish  to  liear  uie  speak  for  myself  I  will  do  so.  I 
said  :  There  is  no  necessity  for  Mr.  Kiel  telling  what  I  have  to  say.  If  you  wish  to  hear 
me  I  will  speak,  and  if  not,  I  won't.  They  said  yes.  I  said,  'Mv.  Kiel,  I  suppose  youii 
understand  Cree  !  He  said  yes.  I  did  not  si)eak  French,  and  I  said  :  I  will  speak  inl 
Cree.     I  spoke  in  Cree.  •  * 

Q.  You  spoke  in  Cree  and  told  them  what  vou  have  said  ? — A.  Yes,  and  what  hjid 
occurred.  Champagne  got  up  and  said  1  told  them  Riel  was  threatening  to  take  my  life. 
Isaid  if  you  think  by  taking  my  life  you  will  benefit  your  cause  you  are  welcome  to  do 
so.  He  said  no,  they  did  not  wish  anything  of  that  kind.  They  wanted  to  redress 
their  grievances  in  a  constitutional  way.  Riel  then  got  up  and  said  he  had  a  committee 
meeting  of  importance  going  on  upstairs,  and  he  went  upstairs. 

Q.  Did  he  return  ? — A.  I  spoke  to  them  for  quite  a  while,  and  he  occasionally 
came  down  and  i)ut  his  hoail  down  stairs  and  said  I  was  speaking  too  loud,  that  I  was 
annoying  their  committee  meeting.  When  1  said  what  I  had  to  say,  I  asked  for  some- 
thing to  eat,  that  I  was  pretty  hungry,  I  got  something,  and  after  I  got  through,  there 
was  a  lot  of  blankets  in  the  corner,  and  I  laid  down  there  till  Mitchell  was  ready.  ■ 

Q.  Where  was  ^litchell  at  the  time  1 — A.  Up  stairs.  When  he  got  through  he 
came  down  with  the  prisoner,  and  I  told  him  to  wait  awhile,  and  we  left  for  Fort 
Carlton.  Wlien  he  came  down,  he,  Riel,  apologised  to  me  for  what  he  had  said,  that  he  did 
not  mean  it  to  me  personally,  that  he  had  the  greatest  respect  for  me  personally,  but 
that  it  was  my  cause  he  was  speaking  against  and  he  wished  to  show  he  entertained 
great  respect  for  me,  he  also  apologised  in  french  to  the  people  there,  and  he  said  as  I 
was  going  out  that  he  was  very  sorry  I  was  against  him.  That  he  would  be  glad  to  have 
me  with  them,  and  it  was  not  too  late  for  me  to  join  them  yet.  He  also  sdid  this  was 
Crozier's  last  opportunity  of  averting  bloodshed,  that  unless  he  sun-endered  Fort  Carlton, 
an  attack  would  be  made  at  12  o'clock. 

Q.  He  said  if  Major  Crozier  did  not  suiTender,  the  attack  would  be  made  at  12 
o'clock  that  night? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  there  anything  more  1 — A.  That  was  all  I  had  to  do  with  him  then  and  I 
then  left. 


V 


/ 


./ 


/ 


20 


Q.  What  dkl  you  then  do?^A.   I  went  to  Carlton. 

Q.   That  would  have  Ueen  on  the  nioraiiig  of  tlu;  "Jlst  ?   -A.    Yes. 

<j.   About  what  time? — A.  One  or  two  in  the  aftt'rnoon  of  the  "Jlst. 

Q.  What  happened  on  the  way  ?  -A.  I  met  a  uunilier  of  aimed  peopli'  i-oniin^'  into 
Batoehe. 

<J.   How  far  from  Batoehe  ? — A.    Alwut  two  mrles. 

Q.  -You  met  a  number  of  armed  peojde  in  sleij^hs  ?  -A.  Yi*s,  in  slfij^hs,  Iiidiuus  and 
Half-breeds.  ( 

(j.   Indians  from  what  reserve? — A.    I  did  not  reoo^nize  tlie  Indian.s. 

Qj  How  uiaiiy  sleiglis  full? — A.  Five  or  si.\  I  met  on  the  road.  I  spoke  to  them, 
I  kiiew  two  or  three  of  the  men  who  wore  there.  I  askeii  them  what  all  this  was  about, 
they  jdnjped  out  of  the  sleifjlls  and  shook  hands  with  me,  and  told  me  they  had  been 
sent  for  and  taken  Ijy  Albert  Monkuuin  who  wais  driving  the  team. 

Q.  How  many  altogether  wer*^  there? — A.  In  one  slei;.;h  there  were  five,  and,  I 
think,  in  another  there  were  six.      Altogether  thei-e  must  have  been  I'U  or  !'.">. 

Q.!  Were  they  all  armed  ?  -A.  I  could  not  say,  beeause  they  wen?  sittini;  down.  I 
saw  rirtes  and  guns  along  with  them. 

<^.   Yoa  went  liaek  to  Carlton  ? — .V.    Yes.  '         ^ 

.Q.  Did  you  meet  ijiany  men  on  the  way  ? — A.  That  is  all  we  met  on  the  road. 
When  we  j^ot  to  l)uck  Like,  there  was  a  trail  coming  from  ti.e  eau  an-.l  west,  and  we 
saw.  some  sleighs  pa.s.sing  llieie  and  some  sleighs  pa>5sing  along  the  Lake. 


Then  when  did    voii  ''i-t  to  Duck  Lake  or  to   Carlt': 


itlier? — A.  About  four 


.     Q. 

o'clock 

Q.  What  was  your  object  ill  returning  to  Carlton  .'  -.\.  1  was  Just  returning.  .Xs  I. 
was  just  goin.:;  aw.iy  from  the  council  ro(jm,  I  overt/iok  Emmanuel  Champagne,  he  was 
walking  "along  the  road  with  . I  ackson,  who  was  with  Kiel  at  that  time.  i  toM  him  to 
get  into  the  rig  and  I  thanked  him  for  tiie  siand  he  had  talien.  l.Hold  him  if  1  could  be 
of  service  to  him  in  any' way  1  would  never  forget  the  services  he  had  remlered  me.  He 
told  me  then  they  had  decided  to  .send  two  men  to  Major  Crozier,  but  tiiey  weie  afraid 
of  treachery,  that  they  were  afraiiT  they  would  be  arrested,  i  .saicl  you  need  not  be 
afraid  1  will  Ik-  one  of  the  party  tliat  w  ill  come  out,  and  you  may  tell  them  they  will  not 
be  interfered  with  at  all.  When  we  got  to  Carlton,  Mitchell  delivered  the  letter  to 
Major  Crozier,  and  I  think  it  was  ask'fj^  him  to  meet  him  half  viay  some  time  that 
njglit,'"alul  that  Riel  did  not  ciioose  to 'meet  Major  Crozier  himself,  but  that  he  ha<l  sent 
two  inen.  t-  " 

C^.  Did  you  ,^o  as- I'epresenting  Major  Crozier  ? — A.- Y'es.  About  an  hour  after  we 
had  resiched  there,  Charle.'fi^olin  ami  Maxime  Lepine  came  up  driving  in  a  cutter.  We 
were  mounted.  We  told  them  what  Major  Crozier  iiad  said,  that  they  should  give  us 
. the.nalmes  of  the  leaders  of  the  movement,  and  that  they  would  have  to  answer  to  the 
law,  l)Ut  that  a  great  many  of  them  who  had  lieen  forced  into  the  movement,  that  they 
should  be  dealt  leniently  with.  Nolin  said  Riel  and  his  council  denninded  the  uncon- 
ditional surrender  of  Fort  Carlton  and  nothing  else  would  satisfy  them,  and  if  they  did 
so,  no  harm  would  be  done  them,  that  they  would  give  a  safe-cOnduct  home.  We  said 
there  was  no  use  discussing  the  inatter  at  all  as  we  said  the  matter  could  not  be  enter- 
tained at  all,  that  all  we  had  to  say  was  to  advise  them  to  disperse  and  go  home,  and 
that  the  leaders  of  the  movement  would  have  to  be  answerable  to  the  law.  He  then 
said  he  had  a  letter  which  he  was  told  to  hand  us,  that  it  would  lie  no  use  to  hand  it,  as 
Fort  Carlton  was  not  to  be  surrendered.  I  thanked  them  for  the  stand  they  had  taken 
.when  I  had  been  there  that  morning  and  I  returned  to  Carlton. 


^21 

Q.  Is  tlii»t  all  that  passed  between  you  and  Capt.  Jloore,  and  Xoliu  and  Lepine  ? — • 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  what  did  you  do  ?— A.    We  returned  to  Carlton. 

Q.   How  long  did  you  remain  there? — A.   I  remained  there  till  the  24th. 

Q.  You  had  ;;ot  as  far  as  the  'J^rd.  You  gave  me  an  account  of  your  interview  in 
tlie  council  chainher — of  your  trial,  you  spoke  of  Gafiiot;  Philippe  (tariiot,  I  think,  you 
said? — A.   Yos,  PliilippetJarnot. 

Q.  What  capacity  (lid  he  act  in  ? —A.  As  secretary. 

Q.   Of  the  council  ?  -A.   Yes,  tukinj^  notes  of  the  evidence. 

Q.   Which  was  given  against  you  ?  »-A.   Yes. 

Q.  Well,  did  any  one  ask  him  to  act  ? — A.  Riel  called  for  the  secretary  and  then 
■Onruot  came  forwartl. 

Q.  And  took  his  seat  at  the  table  ?  -A.  Ye.s,  as  secw^tary  of  the  council. 

Q.  Now  on  the  2 1st  vou  got  liiick  to  Carlton,  how  long  did  you  remain  there  ? — A. 
till  the  lUth. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  then  ?  -A.  On  tlif  night  of  the  24th,  between  ten  and  eleven 
o'clock,  Crozier  asked  me  to  go  and  see  if  I  could  hear  anything  of  Major  Irvine. 

Q.  Was  he  expected  ? — A.  We  heard  that  he  left  Regiiui  with  reinforcements,  but 
nothing  had  been  heard  of  him. 

Q.  You  heard  that  he  had  left  Regina  ? — A.  That  he  was  to  leave  at  a  certain  time. 

Q.   And  notliing  had  been  heard  of  him  up  to  that  time  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  ()n  the  24111  Crozier  asked  you  to  go  and  see  if  you  couhl  tind  anything  about 
him  ? — A.  I  .started  Jtnd  took  tlie  trail  to  Prince  Albert,  the  wire  was  tapped  about  half 
•way  between  Hatoche,  t.o  see  if  anything  liad  been  heard  of  him  at  Pi-inte  Alliert,  before 
going  any  furtlier.  Wh<-n  about  23  miles  out  from  Carlton,  I  met  two  messengers  with  a 
note  for  Crozier  ;  I  opened  the  note  and  found  that  it  was  a  note  from  in.spector  Motlatt, 
stating  tiiat  he  heard  he  was  at  the  south  branch,  and  that  he.expected  him  back  that 
night,  I  found  out  that  he  had  reached  Prince  Alliert";  I  saw  him  and  told  him  that  I  ' 
\vas  sent  by  major  Crozier.  I  tlieu  returneil  to  Fort  Carlton,- travelling  all  night  and  got 
into  Carlton  about  four  o'clock  in  the  aft(aMioon. 

Q.  With  Col.  Irvine  ?  —  A.  No,  I  left  liim.  They  had  made  a  march  that  day  of 
about  .seven  miles,  and  he  did  not  know'whether  he  could  make  Carlton  that  day  from 
tlieie. 

Q.   You  returned  to  Carlton  ? — .\.    Yes. 

■    Q.  You  got  there  between'three  and  four  o'clock  ?— A.  Between  four  atud  five. 

(}.    ICaviiiit  gone  out  and  got  tidings  of  Col.  Irvine  vou  returneil  at  thai   time  ? — A. 

Yes.  'v. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  ne\t  ?  -A.  I  overtook  a  messenger  with  a  note  from  Col.  Ir\-ine 
to  Crozi^^r,  .saying  that  he  could  not  leave  that  day,  that  Ive  would  the  ne.\t,  the  26tli.  I 
had  been,  travelling  all  night  and  turned  in  early;  after  I  turned  in,  I  was  told  that 
Crozier  wanted  to  send  .sergeant  Stewart  with  teams,  and  an  escort  for  the  purpose  of  get- 
ting .some  proxisions  and  Hour  from  the  store  belonging  to  Mitchell,  at  Duck  Lake,  and 
that  he  wanted  me  to  accompany  the  party,  and  we  were  to  start  at  four  o'clock  the  iiext 
morning,  that  would  be  the  26th.  The  next  morning  came  and  we  got  up  and  got  ready, 
sergeant  Stewart  sent  out  an  advance  guard  of  four  men  on  ahead  towards  Duck  Lake,  to 
see  if  the  road  was  clear  ;  we  followed  witli  the  teams  and  sleighs.  1  was  riding  on  about 
a  quarter  of  a  mile  ahead  of  the  teams  looking  out.  When  I  got  within  three  or  four 
juiles  of  Duck  Liike,  I  noticed  on  the  road  some  jieople  lying  in  the  snow,  there  we^e 


!  22  •,      '     .     ' 

marks,  I  t&ok  them  to  be  Indians.    I  noticed  them  connniinicatiug  tlie  signal  by  walking 

.  backwai^ls  and  forward  ;  I  suspected  they  were  watching  the  trail.   I  got  to  within  about 

a  mile  and  a  lialf  of  Duck  Lake  ;  there  is  a  ridge  there  a  little  to  the  north  of  the  mail 

station  ;  when  I  got  there    I   saw  some   mounted  policemen,   riding  at  a   full  galop,  and 

immediately  after  them  there  were  some  mounted  men,  following  them  ;  I  wheeled  around 

and  rode  back  as  haa'd  as  I  could  make  my  horse  go.     Then?  was  a  hill  about  a  ((uarter 

of  a  mile  away,  I  wanted  to  gefto  before  they  came.      When  I  got  within  sight  of  the 

men  I  threw  up  my  hands  and  told  them   to  prepare   and  get   their  riHe.s  ready.      I  told 

them  that  they^were  following  the  Mounted  police.  I  told  them  to  get  their  rilles,  and  said 

'  not  to  fire,"  whatever  tliey  do,  I  can  ride  out  and  if  they  want  to  lire  they  can  have  the 

'   first  chance  at  me  and  you  can  defend  yourselves.   They  were  coming  round  the  bluff,  they 

^   were  jiretty  close  to  the  iiieii,  1  saw  they  would  overtake  them,  I  knew  they  were  excited, 

so  I  rode  out  as  hard  as  I  could,  they    then  hauled  up  all  but  one  man  who  came  right 

on  and  who  never  hauled  up  at  all,  it  was  Patrick  Fiary.      I  asked  them  what  they  were 

about.    Thej*  said  :  What  are  you  about  f  1  said  that  we  were  going  to  Duck  Lake,  to  get 

Jlitchell's  i)rovisions.    Tliey  said  there  were  a  great  many  there.  .  1   asked  whether  they 

■  were  at  Duck  Lake,  they  said  yes.      Tln-y  said  we  had  better  go  back.     1  turned   around 

and  went  towards  the  sleighs,  as  I  was  getting  near  to  the  sleighs,  a  party  of  perhaps  ."10 

or  40  of  -them  very  excited,  came  upon  us;  they  were  yelling  and  flourishing  their  ritli's  ; 

they  were  very  excited,   (iabrid  Dumont  was  of  the  l)arty  ;  he  was  very  excited,  jumped 

off  his  horse  and  loaded  liis  riHe  and  cocked  it,  anil  came  up  to  me  and  threatened  to  blowi 

out  my  brains,  he,  and  some  othei's  threaten'ed  to  use  tlieir  rifles  ;  I  told  them  to  be  ijuite, 

that  two  could  play  at  the  game,  Dumont  talked  very  wildly,  he  wanted' us  to  surrender. 

Jle  siiid  it  was  my  fault  that  the  ])eople  were  not  assisting  them,  and  that  I  was  to  blame 

for  all  the  troulile.      I  told  him  that  we  could  not  surrender,  that  I  thought  we  hail    the 

best  right  to  this  ))roperty.     Some  of  them  jumped  oil'  their   horses   and    went  into  tho 

sleighs.    1  rode  uj)  and  told  \\ie  teamster  to  hold  on  to  his  horses.  They  made  one  or  two 

attempts  to  snatch  the  lines,  Hnally  he  fired  his  rille  ovim-  our  heads  ;  they  ij^ll  stcpjied  oft' 

.'the  roail  and  we  wt'nt  on  the  road  to  Cailton. 


Q.  Had  any  of  the  men  got  into  the  sleighs  ?— -^.  Two  of  tlieni  went  into  one  sleigh,, 
and  tliey  went  to  a  second  team  to  try  and  get  the  lines. 

Q.   Then  there  was  nothing,  but  the  one  shot  tired  ? — A.   That  is  all. 

Q.  You  returned  to  Carlton  1  —A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  many  teams- had  you  on  that  occasion  ? — A.  f^even  or  eight. 

V^Q-  How  many  policenien  ? — A.  A  policeman  in  each  team,  sergeant  Stewart  and 
iome  others. 

Q.    How  many  altogether? — A.   L>  or  16  ;  there  wei-e  22  of  us  altogether,  l/)  police- 
men, I  think... 

Q.  You  returned  to  Carlton  1 — A,  Yes. 

'  Q:   W'hat  time  did  you  get  there  1 — A.   About  ten  o'clock. 

Q.   Ii/TTie  morning  ? — A.  Yes.  '  ' 

Q.  What  did  you  do  then  ? — A.  As  we  returned  to  go  back  sergeant  Stewart  sent  a 
man  to  report  what  had  taken  place. 

Q.  You  had  sent  in  a  man  in  advance  to  report  what  had  taken  ]ilace  ? — A.   Y'es. 

■  Q.  Well  ? — -A.  When  we  got  near  Carlton,  we  met  an  advance  guard  coming  out  of 
Carlton,  there  were  a  Mundjer  of  teams,  they  were  coming  'out  of  Carlton,  and  we  wheeled 
arodnd'and  went  oixt  with  them. 

Q.  Who  was  in  command  of  that  party  ? — A.  Major  Crozier. 

-    Q.  How  many  were  there  ?— A.  99. 


i 


23 


X 


I/' 


I         Q.  How  nviiiy  constables  ? — A.  56. 

Q.  Of  the  party  that  tirst  met  you  the  time  you  turned  back  you  stated  there  were 
30  or  40  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.  How  iiiauy  were  Indians  and  how  many  were  Half-breeds  ? — A.  There  were_  some 
Indians  and  sonus  Half-breeds,  I  cannot  tell  you  the  jiroportion  at  all,  1  was  not  paying 
much  attention,  I  kept  my  eyi'S  on  Jim  Owen  and  one  or  two  others. 

Q.  You  met  the  advance  guard  coming  out  of  Carlton,  in  all  there  were  99  ? — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.   Major  C'rozier  was  in  command  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   Were  there  any  sleighs  ? — ^A.   Yes. 

Q.  How  were  the  men  ' — A.  Some  niountetl  and  some  in  sleighs. 

Q.  AVhat  is  the  distance  from  Carlton  to  Duck  Lake? — A.   Aliout  14  miles. 

Q.   Did  you  Join  and  go  back  with  them  ? — A.   Yes,  the  whole  party. 

Q,  This  would  be  on  the  L'Gth  ? — A.   Yes.  We  went  until  we  came  to  a  house,  about 
four  miles  from  Duck  Lake,  when  the  advance  returned  and   rejiorted  that  there  were  . 
some  Indians  in  the  house.     I  believe  it  was  Beardy's  house.     He  was  in  the  house. 

Q.   Was  it  ui>on  his  reserve  ? — A.  Yes.  "^ 

Q.  Well  ] — A.  Tiie  interpreter  went  over  and  he  came  back  again.  "I  do  not  know  what 
occurred  bet\»  een  them.  We  went  on  and  when  we  got  to  the  same  place  where  I  returned 
back  that  morning;,  we  .saw  the  advance  guard  coming  over  the  hill,  in  tlie  same  way  as 
in  the  morning.  - 

Q.  Was  the  advance  retiring  ? — A.  Yes,  at  the  same  place  as  in  the  morning,  and 
there  was  a  nuudjer  of  men  following  them. 

Q.  Aliout  how  many  t — A.  I  cannot  tell  you,  they  were  coming  over  the  hill  and 
they  were  scattered  all  along  the  road  ;  there  ajipeared  to  bfe  (juite  a  numlier  of  them. 
Major  Ci-ozicr  told  us  to  unhitch  the  horses  and  make  a  ban-icsitle,  and  take  the  horses  to 
the  rear,  when  they  came  near  ;  within  half  a  mile,  they  made  use  of  a  blanket  a.s  a  flag. 

•Q.  White  blanket? — A.  Yes.  Crozier  went  out  and  called  liis  interpreter,  and  •'the 
two  parties  came  near  each  other.  Tiiey  began  to  talk  ;  in  thV  meantime,  they  were 
running  on  the  road  getting  liehind  us  and  behind  the  hills. 

Q.   They  were  changing  tlieir  positions  1 — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  what  then  ? — A.  While  placing  the  sleighs,  T  hestrd  someone  calling  out 
that  they  were  liring  upon  us,  and  let  thenr  liave  it.  I  said  :  Wait  till  we  get  hurt.  Just 
then,  I  turned  my  head  kind  of  that  way  and  saw  Major  Crozier  lift  his  hand  in  the 
direction  the  liring  was  from  and  he  said  :  Fire  now.  And  the  tiring  began  then,  and  there 
was  tjuite  a  skirmish  for  thirty  or  forty  minutes  after  that. 

Q,  How  long  did  it  last  ? — A.  Thirty  or  forty  minutes.  I  did  not  take  time  in  con- 
sideration. 

Q.  How  many  were  killed  on  your  side  ! — A.  We  left  ten  men  upon  the  tiejo,  but 
one  of  them  was  wounded  and  turned  up  afterwards. 

Q.   Who  was  that  ?— A.   Newett. 

Q.  The  other  nine  t — A.  Were  dead.  One  mounted  policeman  was  killed  and  several 
were  wounded,  two  died  just  after  we  got  to  Carlton. 

Q.  You  brought  two  back  with  you  ? — A.  One,  the  others  died  after  we  got  back  to 
Carlton. 

Q.  What  time  did  you  get  back  to  Carlton  ,' — A.  It  must  have  been  about  four 
ock  in  the  afternoon. 


24 

Q.  How  many  were  killed  on  the  otlier  side,  you  did  not  know  at  the  time  ? — A.  No.  j 

Q.   Puring  the  engagement,  liow  many  men  would  you  judge  to  lie  engaged  upon  the 

other  side  ? — A.    We  could  not  see  them.  I  cannot  tell  that;  some  were  in  the  house,  some 

were  Ij^TiidlJlfe' hills.    There  were  two  sleighs  with  two  Indians  in  each  liehindus,  and 

one  Indian  who  was  mounted  ;  that  was  the  Indian  that  was  talking  to.  Major  Crozier.; 

,  he  was  killed  when  the  firing' l)egan. 

Q.  Would  your  ohservations-  eiiahle  you  to  say  how  many  were  engaged  upon  the 
other  side  ? — A.  The  road  -seemed  to  be  pretty  well  covered  with  them. 

Q.  Can  yO!i  form  any  idea  as  to  the  number? — A.  The  road  was  straight  and  they 
seemed  to.  cover  a  "greater  space  than  we  covered,  but  I  cannot  say  as  to  the  nuinl>er  ; 
they  seemed  to  cover  a  greater  space  that  we  did. 

Q.  You  caiuiot  say  the  proportions  of  Indians  and  Half-breed.s  ?  -A.  I  cannot  say. 
I  saw  live  Indians,  these  Indians  got  behind  us,  one  of  them  was  killed. 

~' :    Q.   You  di^ not  recognize  any  of  the  people  that  were  there  ?: — A.   I  did  not  recognize 
any  j)erson.        J  •  "» 

Q. — -You  returned  to  Carlton  and  got  there  about  four  oV-loek.  -  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  (lid  you  do  tlien  ?  —A.  Tliey  were  .some  time  attending  tlie  wounded.  Col. 
Irviiie  got  in  al)out  an  hour  aft<-r  wi-  got  in  and  1  think  it  was  tiiat  afternoon  or  the 
next  morning  that  he  decided  to  leave  Carlton  and  go  down  to  Prince  Albert. 

-  Q.   Did  you  go  with  him  ? — A.   Yes. 

<^  Was  Carlton  burned  ?  -A.  Ye.s,  I  believe  it  took  tire  accidently  and  part  of  it 
was  burned  then. 

Q.  He  decided  to  evacuate  Carlton  with  his  forces  ?   -A.   Yes. 

y.  And  retired  on  Prince  Albert  ?      .V.   Yes.  ^ 

t^.  Wliat  distance  is  that  ?— A.  40  or  .'iO  miles. 

■  ^         Q.  Did  you  go  with  him  to  Princ-e  Alliert  ?   -A.   Yes.  \ 

Q.  Wiiat  day  w.»s  that  ?  — A.  We  left  on  the  morning  of  tlie  2Hth,  about  one  or  two 
o'clock,  and  we  got  down  that  evening. 

Q.  You  remained  at  Prince  Albert  during  the  rest  of  the  lebellion  ?  -.\.  Yes. 

i).  You  have  told  me  all  you  kjiow  aliout  it? — A.  Yes,  there  may  be  .siimething  that 
I  have  omitted.  When  Mitchell  introduced  me  to  the  prisoner,  he  asked  Mitchell  whether 
,  -I  came  of  my  ijRvn  accord  or  whether,  I  came  with  him.  When  he  heard  I  came  with  him, 
he  s;iid  I  was  epititled  to  the  same  protection  as  he  was,  but  if  I  came  of  my  own  accord, 
lie  would  look  after  me,  or  something  of  that  kind.  The  prisoner  .said  I  was  entitled  to 
the  same  protection  as  he  was. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  that  you  ri'niend)er  1 — A.  No,  1  cannot  remend>er  every  thing 
that  tix)k  plii<e.     I  <lo  not  remendier  anything  el.se. 

By  Mr.  (iHKKNsniKMi.-;.  ■  . 

Q.  The  Hitst  time  that  you  met  the  prisoner  was  in  the  council  chamber  ? —A.  Yes. 

Q.    And  before  tliat  you  never  saw  him  ?  -A.   No. 

<j.  Nor  did  you  see  him  after  that  till  in  court?— A.   I  saw  him  in  court,  when  he 
■  was  first  brought  into  court. 

Q.  You  had  no  conversation  nor  did  you  .see  bini  from  that  time  till  his  surrender 
to  General  Middleton  ?     A.   No. 

Q.  Y(flW|^ver  had  any  personal  ijuarrel  or  trouble  with  him  before  ? — A.  No,  I 
never  had  any  ftoniniunication  with  him. 


(/ 


25  ,  --• 

Q.  Did  he  appear  excited  wlieu  you  were  introduced  1>y  Mitchell?— A.  Xo,  not  at 
tlie  timer  A  while  after  he  became  excited. 

Q.   How  long  after  was  it  till  he  got  excited  ? — A.   I  cannot  tell. 

Q,  Five  or  ten  minutes  ? — A.  Perliaps  a  tjuarfer  of  an  liour. 

Q.  During  that  interval  you  were  talking  with  him  all  the  time? — A.  He  went 
away  for  a  Httle  while,  and  then  he  came  hack  again.  He  went  up.stairs  aud  came  hack 
•again. 

Q:  Tell  lis  what  he  said  when  you  were  tir.st  introduced  and  shook  haiids  with  him. 
Did  he  speak  first  or  did  you  ?  — A.  I  spoke  first.  1  told  him  that  we  would  slvake  hunds 
■or  something  to  that  effect,  and  he  said  yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  did  you  first  hpgin  to  talk  with  him  ahout  ?— A.  I  told  him,  1  said  : 
Tliere  appears  to  lio  great  excitement  here.  He  said  no  excitement  at  all,  everything 
was  rjuiet,  or  something  like  that. 

i-i.  You  said  .something  ahout  his  liaving  spoken  aliout  wanting  to  get  their  jrriev" 
aiices  redressed  .'  -A.  YeS:  I  think  1  .said  there  .seemed  to  lie,a  numher  of  men  armed> 
and  he  said  that  tliey  had  heen  asking  for  tlieir  rights  for  fifteen  years,  and  they  had  not 
heeii  gr^ited,  and  they  had  decided  to/make  a  demonstration. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conver.saffon  as  to  what  the  rights  were  ?-  A.  No,  I  had  not 
■with  him. 

Q.   Whom  did  you  talk  ahout  it  with  ?  — A.   The  rest  of  the  people  that  were  in.' 

Q.   That  is,.the  council  ?    -A.    Yes. 

Q.  What  was  their  statement  to  you  regarding  their  rights? — A.  They  did  r^bt 
seem  to  know — tliat  they  were  entitled  to  .scrip  and  never  got  it. 

(J.  Did  they  sjieak  f>f  having  made  any  petition  to  the'tJoverntiieut  for  their  rights? 
— A.  Yes.  We  diseu.ssed  the  matter.  I  had  taken  part  my.self  in  the  petition  that  we 
Sent  forward,  and  knew  more  ahout  it  than  they  did.  It  came  out  in  this  way,  liaUriel 
Dumont  .said  that  I  had  taken  no  interest  in  the  matter  hefore;  that  I  never  advised 
them  ;  that  it  was  only  now,  when  matters  had  gone  so  far,  that  I  advised  them  in  the 
matter. 

i.^.  That  was  r(^]iroaching  you  hecause  you  had  lieen  in.strumental  in  getting  the 
riglits  of  the  Half-hreeds — the  English  Half-hreeds  ? — A.  We  were  entitled  to  scrip,  hut 
ve  never  got  it  yet. 

Q.   Have  you  got  it  since,?     A.   No.  .         , 

Q.   There  is  a  commission  sitting  now  i — A.   Yes.  •.  ; 

y.  Riel  said  that  the  only  answer  they  got  to  every  petition  wu^  an  increase  of 
police? — A,"  No. 

i).  What  was  on  the  tahle  when  you  went  into  the  council  chamher  ? — A.  Some  tin 
dishes  and  some  spoons,  .some  fried  hacon  ,and  some  hannocks. 

<  >.    Any  hlood  in  tiie  dishes  ?  -A.   No.      I  did  not  see  any. 

i}.  Will  you  swear  that  tliere  was  not  ?  Will  you  swear  that  .sonte  of  tliem  were 
not  eating  cooked  hlood  at  the  time  ? — A.   Not  that  I  saw. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  conversation  with  him  did  he  use  the  words  "he  wanted- 
blood"?— ^V.   He  left  me  and  came  hack  again,  it  was  then  he  said  it. 

Q.  Was  he  in  a  v^y  excited  state  of  mind  when  he  talked  ahout  l)lood  ? — A.  He. 
Iiecame  very  excited.  IN:old  him  that  I  did  not  think  that  ho  had  adopted  a  wisej-ajr 
4o  redress  their  grievance.  'i*(  ' 

Q.  In  what  position  was  he  at  tliat  time  ?— A.  Standing  striking  the  table.         • 


1  '  ' .    J    2(ii 

■    '  -  v 

(/.   What  d«l  the  prisoner  say.  to  you  when  Mitchell  stated  you  were  entitled  to  the- 
.  same  protection  as  Mitchell  was  1 — A.   It  was  Kiel  said  that,  not  Mitchell. 

Q.   Didn't  he  say  you  were  at  liberty  to  return  ? — A.   He  said  I  was  entitled  to  the  ' 
same  protection  as  Mitchell. 

Q.  You  did  not  go  as  you  jileased? — A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  Was  tliat  before,  or  after  the  conversation  about  the  blood  took  place ;  was  it 
before  Riel  liad  told  you  he  wanted  blood  and  that  you  were  free  to  go? — A.  It  was  be- 
fore I  had  any  conversation  with  hiin  at  all. 

Q.  The  Hrst  thing  he  did  on  being  introduced  to  you  was  to  assure  you  that  you 
were  at  liberty  ?~A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  had  no  fear  but  that  you  were  at  perfect  liberty  to  returii  ? — A.  It  did  not 
ni^e  any  difference  to  me. 

Q.  After  telling  you  that  you  were  at  perfect  liberty  he  spoke  to'you  of  his  desirfe 
for  bloo<l  ? — A.   Yes,  certaiidy. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  other  conversation  with  him  that  day  ? — A.  He  said  what  I 
said  at  the  time  he  went  upstairs.  He  went  up,  and  he  would  occasionally  put  his  head 
througli  and  say  that  I  was  s|>eaking  loo  loud.  After  he  came  down  he  a|)ologize<l,  and 
said  lie  had  great  resjiect  for  me  personally,  but  it  was  my  causp. 

■      Q.  On. the  whole  he  treated  you  civilly  ? — A.   No;  he  made  use  of  language  to  nie 
that  wa.s  np\  er  before  u.sed  to  me. 

Q.  l)id  he  have  any  coiivereation  with  you  as  to  the  object  of  the  rebellion  ? — A.  He 
said  they  wanted  their  rights.  I 

Q.  Did  he  tell  vou  anything  about  the  administration  of  the  North-West  Territories  I 
—A.  No.  "  ,  __ 

Q.  Aljout  a  new  Church  ; — A.  No.  • 

Q.   No  conversation  about  either  of  these  matters  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  When  he  calleil  for  blood  was  it  after  he  went  down  1 — A.  He  went  away  and 
canje  back  and  called  for  blootl. 

Q.   And  then  he  went  upstairs  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  When  he  came  down  the  ne.\t  time  he  apolo;;ised  for  the  language  use<l  1 — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Shortly  after  that  you  went  away  ? — Yes. 

His  Honoh. — Any  juror  that  desires  to  ask  the  witness  any  question  is  at  liberty 
to  do  so. 


John  W.  AsTLEY.  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  IJurbridge.      ,■  [ 

Q.  You  resT3e  at.  Prince  Albert  ?^A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  ha\'e  you  resided  there  'I — A.   About  three  years. 

Q.   What  is  your  occupation  ? — A.   Civil  Engineei-,  Land  Surveyor  and  Explorer. 

Q.  In    March  last  you  were  employed  by    Major  Crozier  1 — A.  I  left  with  volun- 
teers to  go  to  Carlton. 

Q.  How  were  you  employed  ? — A.  As  volunteer,  and  then  I  was  used  as  a  scout. 

Q.   What  time  in  March? — A.   About  the  18th  March. 

■  Q.  How  long  were  you  a  scout  ] — A.  I  was  scouting  through  the  French  Kettlft-^ 


r 


^      .  27 

meats,  the  Half-breed  settlements  and  the  reserve  till  two  o'clock  on  the  iiiorniiig  of  the- 
26th. 

Q.  Were  you  alone  ?^- A.  Part  of  the  time.  Part  of  the  time  H.  Ross  was  witli 
me. 

Q.  You  posted  a  j)roclamation  t — A.  Yes,  I  posted  a  proclamation  from  Crozier, 
telling  those  who  had  been  forced  into  rebellion  that  if  tliey  gave  themsel\;es  into  the 
charge  of  the  police  they  would  be  protected.  I  posted  those  as  far  as  Le[)ine's  and  back 
by  the  other  road,  in  the  most  conspicuous  places  where  I  thought  there  would  be  a 
chance  of  their  being  .seeit,  one  in  English  and  the  other  in  French.  I  noticed  in  passing 
the  road  afterwards  that  these  notices  were  nearly  all  torn  down.  1  went  over  the  road- 
on  the  morning  of  the  36th,  to  see  if  the  French  Half-breeds  were  trying  to  intercept 
Major  Crozier.  Rcss  was  with  nie.  We  were  about  the  place  where  the  battle  took 
l)lace.  I  was  about  thirty  or  forty  yards  ou  aliead  of  Ro.s.s,  an^  an  Indian  suddenly 
Jumped  alongside  of  me  and  pointed  his  ritle  or  shot  gun -at  my  l>reasf.  I  turned  arouiitl 
to  see  if  my  p  irtner  was  pris>uer  to.i.  I  saw  that  he  w.is,  ajid  that  there  was  sonm 
.sixteen  or  twenty  of  them  all  aiuied,  and,  as  he  was  captured  first,  I  thought  it  was  be>t 
to  give  up  <iuietly. 

Q.  Who  appeai'ed  to  be  the  leader  of  the  party? — A.  Gabriel  Duniont.  Then- 
were  abiiut  10  or  L'O  of  them,  part  Half-breeds  and  jiart  Indians.  We  were  taken  to 
Duck  Lake  and  put  in  the  Telegraph  otiice  till  the  morning,  and  an  armed  guard  was 
placed  outside  the.  building  that  night.  Albert  Monkman  seemed  to  be  in  charge  of 
Duck  Lake  at  that  time. 

Q.  How  many  men  would  be  at  Duck  Lake  at  that  time? — A.  f^O  or  100,  that  i>, 
takiug  into  consideratiim  those  who  were  acting  as  outside  gtiard.  lu  the  morning  we 
were  removed  upstairs,  in  what  had  been  ilitchell's  house. 

(^.  During  that  day  did  anymore  come  in?  -A.  Alter  we  were  placed  ui)stuir>, 
about  noon  or  shortly  before,  a  lot  of  Half-l)reeds  and  Soiue  Indians  came  from  Ratoche 
witli  the  prisoner  in  coiinnand,  that  would  be  some  tiiue  aiiout  noon. 

Q.   The  accused  was  in  conunand,  how  did   you  come  to  that   conclusion? — A.   That 
morning  he  interviewed  me  and   Ross,  and  talked  to  us  ;  he   brought   Bourget  with  Jiim,  ' 
he  seemed  to  have  control  and  asked  the  questions.      I  was  down  stairs  afterwards  for  a 
few  uiinutes,  and  I  saw  the   pri.soner  beckoning   to  the  nuni  to  tall  in  line,  and  they  fell 
in  line. 

Q.    He  was  giving  commands  ? — A.   Ye.s.  -• 

().  After  they  were  reinforced  how  many  men  liad  they  altogether^ — A.  I  should 
say  about  400,  takiug  both  Indians  and  Half-breeds. 

(}.    How  many  Indians? — A.    About  l-'iO  Indians  altogether. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  prisoners  on  the  26th  ?  -A.  Lash,  Tompkins,  .Simpson, 
JIcKean  and  Woodcock  were  brought  up  into  the  same  room.  We  heaixl  some  report 
of  Mackay  having  come  near  the  building,  and  being  ordered  back  by  Duniout.  In  the 
afternoon,  looking  towards  the  west,  we  noticed  them  running  towards  Carlton."  Shortly 
after  that,  all  that  were  there,  except  what  I  would  call  a  fair  sized  guard,  who  remaine<l 
around  the  building,  went  in  the  same  direction.  Shortly  after  the  prisoners  heard 
tiring,  I  myself  did  not  hear  it,  I  heard  the  sound  of  a  cannon,  that  is  all  I  pan  swear  to. 
Ill  about  an  hour  or  an  hour  and  a-half,  they  returned  bringing  a  wounded  prisoner. 
Newett,  with  them  ;  he  was  shot  through  the  leg  and  hammered  on  the  heA<l  with  a 
musket  or  something.  I  dressed  his  wound,  and  the  prisoner  came  upstairs  and  talke<I 
to  us  about  the  battle.  He  said  that  ourselves  as  prisoners  nijht  have  been  sent  into  his 
hands  to  show  future  people  in  what  way  he  had  conducted  the  war,  pointing  to  the  woun- 
ded prisoner  and  saying  that  he  used  that  "man  humanely.  He  said  the  volunteers  and  the 
police  tired  first.  I  told  him  tliat  from  what  I  knew. of  Major  Crozier,  he  did  not  intend 
to  lire  lirst,  that  he  liad  told  me  so.     I  suggested  that  perhaps  a  gun  had  gone  ofi"  by 


28 


-A.  In  the  evrly  part  well,  as  well   as 
down    into   the 


■  accident,  and  the  prisoner  admitted  that  that  was  perhaps  so,  but  that  one  shot  caused 
the  start.  He  called  on  his  men  in  the  name  of  God  or  the  Sujii-eme  Being  :  "  I  say 
unto  you  fire,'-'  and  he  explained  that  the  troops  were  beaten  by  the  bravery  of  liis  own 
soldiers. 

/  O.    At    tliis   time  were  tlie  stores  looted  ? — A.   They  were  not  looted  wlien  we  went 

tliere,  but  befw-e  we  left  they  were  cleared  out. 

Q.  You  were  taken  to  Carlton  on  what  day? — A.  On  the  .31.st  of  March  we  left 
Dack  Ltke  for  Carlton.  When  we  got  out  in  the  yard  Riel  was  there  in  person  ;  some 
were  getting  into  sleighs,  when  he  told  us  to  inarch. 

Q.  Who  v/as  in  command  of  the  party  that  took  you  ? — A.  Monkman.  When  we 
got  tq  Cijrltoii,  we  remainii:!  there  till  the  3rd  of  April,  we  were  then  moved  to  Batoche, 

J2.  Who  was  ill  comm  md  in  taking  you  to  Batoche? — A.  Andre  Joliin.  In  Ba- 
toche we  were  placed  in  a  room  on  the  lower  floor  of  the  store,  afterwards  we  were  put 
on  the  upper  Hat  of  the  same  store.  Soon  after  I  sent  a  communication  to  Riel  in 
reference  to  Ross  and  the  othei'  prisoners,  seeing  what  I  could  do  towards  getting  rfn 
exchinge.  Riel  came  upstairSi  and  told  mo  he  could  not  see  things  iii  the  same  light, 
but.  that  he  would  exchange  us  fojf  Olarck,  8proat  and  McKay. 

Q.  The  Hon.  Lawrence  Clark  ? — A.  Yes;  I  said  that  could  not 'be  done. 

Q.  How  were  you   treated  as  a  prisonf 
M^n  could  lie  under  the  situation,  but   after  that,  when  we  were   taken 
^  cellar,  we  could  not  have  been  treated  worse. 

Q.  Did  they  take  extra  precaution  at  the  time  of  Fish  Creek  ?— A.  There  was 
always  a  home  guard  left  around  the  buildings.  Just  after  the  Fish  Creek  light,  the 
Indians  came  back  earlier,  and  alarmed  me  as  regarded  the  safety  of  the  prisoners.  I 
thouglit  as  long  as  the  llalf-lireeds  were  thei'e,  the  Indians  could  not  get  at  us,  but  if 
the  homr  guards  were  taken  away,  when  the  Indians  came  back  earlier,  they  might 
mista -re  the  prisoners.  After  the  Fish  Creek  tight,  I  wrote  to  Riel  asking  him  for  an 
interview,  that  would  be  abiut  tli-  2*Uh  of  April  ;  had  a  long  talk  with  him  about  the 
prisoners.  1  told  him  about  the  fears  I  entertained  about  the  Indians,  and  iisked  him  if  he 
would  allow  int!  to  see  the  General  or  Irvine,  to  try  and  ert'ect  an  exchange.  He  refused 
to  exciia|ige. 

*).  What  did  you  say  to  him  ? — A.  I  said  :  What  do  you  want  to  keep  us  for  ?  I  said : 
J.  suppose  you  wish  thaf  if  you  or  your  council  get  into  danger,  you  will  want  the 
prisoners  for  that  purpose.  Riel  said  :  Yes,  certainly.  I  said  to  liim  to  allow  me  to  go 
and  .see  either  Irvine  or  the  General  aliout  getting  an  exchange.  I  said  :  You  claim  a 
victory  at  Fish  Creek  and  Duck  Like.  And  I  said  :  Let  me  go  and  try  for  terms. 
•He  said  that  lie  hail  gaine<l  two  victories.  I  asked  him  if  he  would  not  allow  me  to  do 
that.  He  said  :  We  must  have  another  battle,  and  he  said  :  If  we  gain  another  battle, 
the  terms  will  be  itetter.  And  he  said  :  If  we  loose  it,  the  terms  will  be  the  same  as  now. 
He  said;  that  after  another  battle,  he  would  allow  me  to  go.  From  that  day,  I  was 
waiting,  expecting  that  anotlier  battle  would  occur.  On  the  last  day,  that  would  be  the 
1 2th  of  JI  ly,  he  came  to  the  cellar  and  called  my  name  in  a  hurry,  and  as  I  was  getting 
out,  he  (old  the  rest  of  the  prisoners  tlfat  he  was  sending  me  to  the  General  with  that 
•    message.     I  think  the  paper  is  there. 

Q.    [s  that  the  paiier  ? — -A.   Yes,  that  is   the    message   I    carried   out   that  morning 
-'•{Papep'sliown  to  witness.) 

Q.  Pid  you  see  the  prisoner  riglit  after  that  ?  -A.  Yes,  right  at  the  council 
chamber  at  Ifatoche.  At  the  sam;!  time  that  he  wrote  another  message  for  Jackson  to 
t  like,  I  took  the  message  to  the  General,  I  also  saw  him  write  that  one  for  Jackson. 

Q.   Is  that  it  (shown  witness)  1 — A.  Yes,  that  is  the  one  that  Jackson  carried. 

Q.  He  gave  that  to  Jackson  the  same  time  he  gave  you  yours  ? — A.  Yes,  at  the  same 


29 

time  ;  one  of  us  was  supjwsefl  to  j;o  one  way  an<I  the  other  the  otlier  way.  I  rode  to  tli>- 
jfeiieral  with  that  on  horsclnick,  tlie  prisoner  went  witli  ine  until  he  passed  me  thtough 
his  own  lines.  I  went  out,  rejiched  the  jjeueral  and  ijive  him  tlie  note  ;  he  read  the  note  Mid 
took  a  few  minutes  to  consider.  I  asked  liim  to  write  a  note  to  Hiel.  He  wrote  that  note 
and  I  took  it  hack  to  Kiel.  1  think  tlial  note  is  anion-;  tlie  pujiers  there.  Instead  of  allow- 
in}{  nie  to  go  hack,  into  the  cellar  the  prisoner  made  me  <;o  into  the  church,  and  he  put  an 
englisli-spnikinf;  Half-hreed  and  an  Indian  to  i,'uard  the  church.  In  alnjut  haif  an  houv 
or  so  Riel  calle<l  for  ine  aj^ain  and  I  went  with  liim  amonf;  the  women  and  the  children.  "X 
He  wrote  several  notes,  hut  none  of  them  seemed  to  please  him  awd,  he  ti>re  them  up, 
except  one  which  seemed  to  suit  him.  I  sat  talking  with  him  till  he  had  tini.shed  writiui; 
and  then  I  began  to  ask  him  whether  it  would  not  lie  better  to  let  nie  see  and  trv  what 
terms  I  could  fjet.  I  said  that  he  could  come  with  nie  and  see  the  General.  After  talkin<( 
a  loni,'  time  he  left  me  and  came  hack  in  a  short  time  witli  (Jabriel  l)umoiit,  but  as  I  do 
not  talk  French  I  had  to  let  the  pri.soner  explain  to  Gabriel  what  we  were  talking  aliout. 
Finally  he  sai<l  there  was  a  great  deal  to  consider,  it  would  then  be  aliout  one  o'clock  : 
about  half  jiast  one  o'clock  he  had  nearly  agreed  to  «  hat  1  proposed  he  should  do.  The  tirinu 
then  began  and  he  at  once  turned  to.  and  asked  me  wliat  that  meant.  I  told  him  that 
some  of  the  Indiaife  must  have  started  it  ;  I  toUl  him  if  he  would  write  a  note  to  the  _ 
(Jeneral,  thanking  him  and  say  nothing  about  fighting,  but  leave  it  to  me,  I  would^get  the 
firing  stopped  if  po.ssible,  anyway  I  would  see  what  could  be  done.  He  then  wrote  a  note 
,and  asked  me  to  take  it.     I  asked  him  to  jia.ss  nie  througii  the  lines. 

Q.  Is  that  the  note  (showing  witness)  .'  —A.  That  is  the  note  just  as  an  excuse  for 
me  to  get  the  tiring  stoppeil.  ' 

Q.  That  is  the  note  ]-  A.  Ye.s,  he  wrot.'  that  in  a  tent  or  in  tlie  council  chamber 
and  gave  it  to  nie  ;  he  went  part  of  the  way  with  me  through  his  lines,  in  the  position 
outside  his  own  ritle  pits,  the  tiring  was  pretty  heavy.  Kiel  went  down  into  a  low  place 
till  I  overtook  hiin,  he  «as  on  horseback.  .Some  of  hj,s  men  had  left  the  lirie  pits  and  !;one 
to  where  he  was.  When  1  came  n\t  to  him,  Riel  asked  for  the  note  and  imt  it  into  an 
envelope. 

Q.    Is  that  the  envelope  ( — A.   Yes.  . 

<ii,  Are  those  words  the  wordslie  wrote  upon  the  envelope .'  -A.  Yes,  he  took  the  note  out 
of  my  hands  and  wrote  those  words  on  the  outside  in  my  presence.  He  ordeied  the  men 
who  had  left  the  rille  pits  to  go  back  again  and  they  went  back  along  with  uie  :  I  continued  . 
on,  went  to  the  tieiieral  and  gave  him  the  note.  I  did  not  call  his  atteiitioii  to  the  memo- 
randum on  the  outside  of  the  note  till  night  time.  I  asked  him  how  the  tire  began 
and  he  said  that  the  Sioux  started  it,  but  that  if  Riel  would  get  his  men  to  stop  tiring 
that  he  would  order  liis  men  to  remain  where  they  were  and  they  would  not  advance  any 
further.  There  was  not  time  to  write  a  letter  and  I  went  back  and  it  took- a  long  time 
to  rtnd  Riel  ;  I  went  among  the  women  and  the  children  and  I  found  him.  The  tiring 
was  getting  warm.  I  told  him  what  the  General  liad  said,  that  if  he  would  order  his  men 
to  stop  the  tiring  he  would  do  the  same  and  that  he  could  come  with  me  personally  to  the 
General.  He  liesitated  for  a  time.  At  last  I  said:  There  ai-c  not  many  minutes^to  waste  if 
you  want  to  call  the  council  tt>gether,  call  them  and  ^et  ine  address  them.  At  last  the 
prisoner  said  :  "  It  is  not  necessary  to  call  the  council."  He  saiil  he  would  do  as  [  wisheil. 
I  said  you  acknowletlgeyou  have  the  power  to  do  as  I  wish  without  the  council.  He  said 
yes.  I  said  for  him  to  give  the  order  to  stop  tiring.  He  said  :  You  know  the  men  1  lia\c. 
I  cannot  go  among  these  men  and  tell  them  to  stop  tiring.  He  said  :  You  kncjw  that.  I 
told  liim  I  would  go  back  and  explain  how  every  thing  stood  and  .see  if  it  was  possible 
for  the  General  to  stop  his  men  at  a  certain  position  if  he  was  willing  to  do  as  I  wishetl 
he  was.  < 

Q.  That  is  willing  to  surrender  ?^A.  Yes,  I  went  back  and  told  tlie  Geneial  what 
he  said.  He  said  that  he  could  not  accept  it  as  a  surrender,  unless  Riel  ceased  tiring. 
I  knew  he  could  not  get  his  men  to  cease  tiring.  I  went  back  to  try  and  keep  the  troops 
from  getting  at  the  women  and  children.     I  got  the  General  to  send  a  note  to  Riel  ofler- 


30 


/ 


^he' 


I 


f 


ing  the  same  terms  as  I  had  offered,  that  is  that  he  should  be  kept  safe  till  he  had  a  fair 
trial. 

Q.   Did  he  speak  to  you  of  his  personal  safety  1 — A.   He  had  very  little  to  say  aliout 
Half-breeds,  as  far  as  regards  himself  seemed  the  principal  object. 

I  Q.  What  did  he  ask  you  in  regard  to  himself? — A.  If  I  would  explain  what  risk  he 
fan  personally  himself.  He  said  to  me  that  we  knew  that  he  never  carried  a  ritle,  of 
tourse  at  the  same  time  we  had  seen  him  carry  a  rifle  on  one  occasion.  I  told  him  he  ran 
110  danger  as  I  could  look  at  it.  -  He  suggested  that  I  should  broach  the  subject  of  the 
'liurch  to  the  tieneral,  and  it  would  give  him  a  chance  to  broach  tlirf  subject  when  he 
/;ame  to  be  interviewed  by  the  Oeneral..  He  would  say-that  he  was  not  to  blame,  that  the 
ijouncil  was  to  bliiffiie.  V  ,'      ■ 

Q.  During  the  time  that  you  saw  the  prisoner  there  did  you  see  him  in  command  ? — A. 
He  ordered  the  men  injp  the  pits  ou  that  occasion  when  some  of  them  were  leaving  them. 
He  took  one  Half-breed  and  .made  him  go  back  saying  that  he  would  be  able  to  do  some 
lighting  with  the  troops  at  all  events. 

Q.,.When  did  you  see  him  armed  1 — A.  8ome  time  before  the  Fish  Creek  tight,  it 
iiust  have  been  about  a  week  before.  I~was  tiilking  to  lliel  before  the  council  chamber 
pne  day,  when  a  frencli  Half-breed  came  up  with  the  report  that  the  troops  were  coming, 
^lioitly  after,  myself  and  .the  rest  of  the  prisoners  saw  him  as  he  passed  the  front  of  the 
house  quickly  with  the  Half-breeds  going  towards  the  river  armed. 

1^  Q.  During  the  eight  days  3-ou  were  in  the  cellar  were  you  bound  at  any  time  ? — A. 
They  used  to  tie  us  up  about  supper  time  and  leave  us  that  way  till  ne.\t  morning,  that  was 
or  the  last  eight  days.  Delornie  came  down  and  threatened  to  shoot  us  if  we  were  loose 
*-hen  he  returned.  Th.ey'  used  to  tie  our  hands  behind  our  backs  and  release  us  in  the 
Homing  again. 

Q.  It  is  sugsjested  to  ask  you  if,  when  you  were  released  on  the  12th,  anything  was 
id  to  the  prisoners  ?^-A-.  He  told  the  other  prisoners  the  message  I  took  to  the 
ieneral,  that  ^f  the  women  and  children  were-  hurt  or  were  wounded  by  the  troops  he 
k'ould  massacre   the  prisoners,  or  words  to  that  etFect,  just  the  same  as  was  in   the  note. 

Mr.  Johnston.  .  _/ 

I  Q.  Was  the  26th  of  March,  the  first  occasion  an  which  you  saw  the  prisoner  /  — 
A.  No,  I  saw  him  in  the  settlement  since  last  sunnner  oli'  and  on, , but  not  to  know  him 
us  I  know  him  now. 

Q.l  How  often  did  you  see  liim  from  that  time?^A.  Perhaps  tea  or  twelve  times.  ■ 

Q.  Where  did  you  see  him  ? — G.  At  the  Batoche  g)!>ttl«iient.  Prince  Albert  and 
liiflereiit  parts  of  the  Prince  Albert  Distriot. 

Q.  Were  you  present  at  any  of  the  meetings  ? — A.  I  never  attended  any.  I  was  at 
'?rince  Albert  meeting  lufew  minutes,  but'I  took  no  interest  in  it  at  all. 

Q.  A  few  minutes  at  Prince  Albert  ?^A.  Yes,  .just  walked  into  the  hall  and  saw  the 
])risoner  at  the  end  of  the  hall.  ' 

Q. When  did  you  commence  to  take  an  interest  in  him? — A.  When  I  went  to 
Carlton  as  a  volunteer  and  when  I  undertook  scouting,  j  , 

Q.  You  went  up  from  Prince  Albert  with  the  volunteers,  how  long  did  you  remain 
•s,t  Carlton  1 — A.  About  a  day,  and  then  I  went  through  the  settlement. 

Q.  When  you  left  Carlton,  where  did  you  go  1 — A.  Past  the  Indian  Reserve,  Duck 
tiake,  and  through  the  principal  part  of  the  French  Half-breed  settlement.  I  didn't  go 
4|uite  to  Batoche. 

Q.  You  returned  when  1 — A  Some  times  at  night  and  some  times  in  the  day  time. 


{ 


\ 


31 

Q.   Did  you  see  the  prisoner  at  Batoche  .' — A.   Till  the  26ih  I  did  not  go  to  Batoche 

Q.   Now  you  were  prisoner,  who  took  you   prisoner? — A.   Sixteen  or  twenty  Half-   ' 
breeds  took  nie.   (ialiriel  Duniont  was  in  cliarv'e  of  tlie  scouting  party. 

Q.   How  long  were  you  prisoner  before  you  saw  Riel  and  his  u>en  ] — A.   From  two. 
o'ulocJi  that  morning  till  about  noon  the  sameilay  ;  that  i.s,  when  he  came  in  per/on  £rcjm 
Batoche.  i  .     , 

Q.  How  long  was  he  at  Duck  Like  before  you  saw  him? — A.  I  saw  him  comin'ii  in 
the  yard. 

Q.  Was  he  tiie  first  man  tliat  caine^  into  the  yard  I — A.  You  cfiuld  not  see  the  yai:d, 
he  was  the  first  man  I  noticed.    I  knew  him  by  sight. 

Q.    Were  there  others  besides  him  ? — A.    Yes. 

Q.   Was  he  mixed  with  tlie  others  ? — A.   No,  he  was  more  advanced  than  the   others  ' 
he  was  by  himself. 

Q.   How  was  he  di-essed  ? — A.   Large  cheek  common  looking  trousers  as  well  as  I     • 
remember,  about  the  same  kind  of  tweed  lie  wore  most  of  the  time.  Riel  was  never  \erv 
partici»lar  about  his  dress. 

Q.  How  long  was  lie  there  before  he  came  to  inter\iew  you  and  the  other  prisoners  ! 
— A.   I  would  say  it  might  be  perhaps  half  an  hour. 

Q.  Did  he  come  to  .see  you  or  did  he  send  for  you  ] — A.  iHe  came  to  see  Ross  and 
myself. 

<.^.  To  whom  did  he  address  himself  first  ?  — I  do  not  know,  I  m.ay  liave  been  the 
spokesman. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  him  '  —A.  I  did  not  tell  liiiii  exactly  what  I  was  there  for. 
I  gave  him  another  story.  ■  .     " 

Q.  What  was  the  story  i — A.  That  I  was  tra\elling  through  the  country  making 
inquiries  if  the  outfit  was  stopped  at  his  headijuarters. 

■Q.   What  was  your  object  in  telling  that  I — A.   To  get  away  from  that  place. 

Q.  Was  tlie  prisoner  excited  at  that  time  ? — A.  Not  that  I  could  .see,  he  talked 
reasonably,  as  rather  a  clever  man. 

Q.  What  did  he  say?  How  loiig  were  you  engaged  in  conversation  with  him  at  that 
time? — A.  Just  wliile  f  explained  him. 

Q.  Did  lie  tell  you  afterwards  he  had  found  out  you  were  not  telling  the  truth  ? — - 
A.    I  don't  think  he  found  it  out  for  five  weeks. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  about  the  Church  and  State  at  that  time  ' — A.  Not  at  that 
time. 

Q.  Did  he  talk  about  the  rebellion  1  Wliat  did  he  say  ?  Tliat  was  the  last  you  saw  of 
him  till  you  returiie<l  from  Duck  Lake  ? — ^A.  No,  after  the  battle  was  over  he  came  up 
and  saw  us. 

Q.  Did  lie  say  that  he  was  at  that  battle  ? — A.  Y''es,  that  he  had  ordered  the  men 
to  fire. 

Q.  He  said  that  Crozier  tired  the  first  shot !— A.  He  said  that  the  volunteers  or 
the  policemen  fired  the  rii-st  shot.  I  said  that  I  knew  that  Crozier  w-ould  not  tire  the  first 
shot,  that  perhaps  one  went  off  by  accident.  Then  he  admitted  that  it  might  be  so.  He 
laid  no  stress  on  the  first  shot  being  tired. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  talk  with  him  at  that  time  ? — A.  Quite  a  long. time. 

<J.  How  long  ?— A.  I  could  not  say  as  to  the  time  at  all.  j 


Q.   Ho\V  many   of  you 
VVoo<lcook. 


!  32 

Q.   How  long  did  you  converse  with  liiin  ?-^A.   He  talked  to  Ui?  prisoners. 

A.  Myself,  Lash,  the  two  Tonikins,  Ross,  McKean  ind 


A.  Charlie  Newett.     [ 


(,).    Were  the    woundeil-  prisoners  with   you   iit  this  time  ?- 
Iressed  his  wounds.  The  prisoner  asked  him  some  ijuestions. 

Q.  What  did  he  ask  liini  ?-  A.  He  asked  him  whether  he  knew  the  Hon.  Lawreiue 
Clark  was  among  the  volunteers,  that  was  the  principal  tiling. 

Q.  I)id  he  ifive  directions  Ikjw  the  wounded  niiin  was  to  be  treated? — A.  He  left 
that  in  my  hands.  He  lioped  and  expected  I  would  do  the  best  I  could  for  the  wounded 
prisoiiers. 

Q.  You  say  you  were  speaking  to  him  a  considerable  time,  did  he  at  this  time  strikie 
you  as  being  excited  or  excitable,  or  was  lie  calm  ?  — A.  He  was  cool  enough,  a  little  elated 
at  his  victory. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  of  dividing  the  Territories? —A.  Ife  mentioned  about  the  llalf- 
jreeds  making  certain  claims  and  told  us  that  we  had  no  business  in  that  part  of  the 
irountry,  that  \.e  belonged  to  Canada,  and  that  this  country  belonged  to  the  Indians  and 
Ualf-breefls.  ^I  did  not  take  much  interest  in  what  he  was  saying,  as  1  was  dressing  the 
ftouiided  prisoner. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  talking  of  defeating  the  tiovernment  that  time? — A.  Not  as 
I'ar  as  defeasing  the  tioverninent  is  concerned.      ^ 

i}.  Wl'iat  did  he  say  al)Out  it  1 — A.-  He  told  hs  what  the  ordinary  claims  were,  and 
laid  tliiU  we  might  have  l>een  sent  to  show  how  he  conducted  the  war. 

Qj  Do  you  know,  ditlhe  sity  anytliing  about  saving  the  life  of  this  wounded  man  ? — 
A.  He  said  that  he  himself  had  stopped  an  Indian  from  killing  that  man.  I  told  him 
that  was  the  etfect  of  raising  the  Indians  and  that  was  the  way  the  Indians  fought,  to 
hill  a  man  when  lie  was  wounded. 

t^.  When  had  you  a  conversation  with  him  again  ■  A.  The  next  day  I  was  down- 
stairs a  short  time,  and  I  met  him  and  had  a  talk  with  him  about  the  Indians.  I  told 
Jjim  it  was  a  bad  thing  to  have  anything  to  do  with  the  Indians.  He  said  that  he  could 
jiot  helj)  it,  that  he  was  compelled  to  use  Indians.  I  told  hini<that  he.  was  aware  that  he 
■ould  not  control  the  Indians. 

Q.  Who  \\a^  present  at  that  conversation  ? — A.  I  was  by  myself  just'  coming  out  of 
4he  door. 

,    Q.  Were  there  any  others  around  ? — A.  .Some  Half-breeds  wen;  stationed  as  guards, 
they  were  ariiied. 

Q.  During  that  occasion,  or  on  any  occasioii,  did  he  speak  of  the  Church  or  of 
;he  Dominion  of  Canada  ? — A.   No,  nothing  of  any  importance,  except  at  Batoche. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  at  Batoche  about  his  Church  / — A.  He  said  he  wanted  me  to 
mention  to  the  General  that  he  was  to  be  recognized  as  the  founder  of  the  new  Church, 
and  that  it  the  subject  was  mentioned  to  the  General  he  could  continue  the  subject  when 
he  metihiin.    .      . 

I  Q.  What  did  you  understand  by  founding  a  new  Church? — A.  I  understood  it  as  a 

sharp  trick  to  get  the  upper-hand  of  the  unfortunate  Half-breeds. 

,    Q.  Did  you  understand  that  before? — A.   I  looked  upon  it  in  tliat  light. 

I  y.  Were  there  other  Half-breeds  listening  to  this  conversation  at  Batoche  ? — A.  Lots 
of  them  were  standing  around,  but  only  an  odd  one  could  talk  English.  He  spoke  iu 
!^iglish  to  me. 

Q.  Why  did  you  think  it  was  to  get  the  advantage  of  the  Half-breeds  1 — A.  I  con 
sidered  that;  he  was  using  them  for  his  own  end. 


) 


33 

Q.  Did  you  consider  his  actions  eccentric  ? — A.  He  seemed  intelligent,  and  in  many 
ways  a  clever  man, 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  General  Middleton  about  this  man  ? — A.  I  told  the  General 
exactly  what  I  knew  about  the  matter. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  the  General  that  you  had  considerable  influence  over  Riel,  and  that 
he  was  a  simple-minded  man  1 — A.  No.  • 

Q.  You  have  had  considerable  to  do  with  the  working  up  of  evidence  against  Kiel. 
—  A.   Not  that  I  am  aware  of. 

Q.  Have  you  been  engaged  in  that  line  for  the  last  month  1 — A.  Jvot  working  up 
evidence. 

Q.  Workiiig  up  the  case? — A  No,  I  am  here  as  a  simple  witness.  I  am  not  more 
than  the  others. 

Q.  Have  you  given  instructions  to  the  Crown  about  this  prosecution  ? — A.  Not  in 
any  other  light.  I  gave  no  instructions,  it  would  be  rather  strange  if  they  received 
instructions  from  me'. 

Q.  Had  you  anything  to  do  with  preparing  of  the  papers  or  giving  information  ? 
— A.   Not  in  preparing  the  papers,  I  have  only  given  my  own  information. 

Q.   Did  Riel  appear  to  have  been  engaged  in  this  fight,  or  was  he  afraid  to  fight  ? — 

A.  As  far  as  I  could  see  he  was  too  much  afraid /to  run  his  neck  into  unnecessary 

danger.  ' 

J 
Q.   You  were  not  alarmed  that  you  would  receive  injury  at  the  hands  of  Riel  or  the 

Half-breeds  ? — A.   At  the  hands  of  the  Indians. 

Q.  Not  injury  from  Riel? — A.  Not  as  |ar  as  the  Half-breeds  were  concerned,  I 
knew  Riel's  object  in  keeping  us.  He  admitted  himself  that  that  was  his  object. 

Q.  How  many  interviews  had  you  with  General  Middleton  altogether? — A.  One 
in  the  morning,  one  a  little  after  the  fire  began  and  one  after.     I  could  not  get  back. 

Q.  How  many  altogether  ? — A.  Three.  ' 

Q.  During  that  time  you  had  made  arrangements  as  to  the  surrender  of  Riel  to 
General  Middleton  1 — A.  He  said  he  would  do  as  I  wished,  but  I  could  not  get  that, 
because  by  that  time  the  charge  had  begun  and  Riel  was  gone. 

Q.  What  reason  can  you  give  for  Riel's  willingness  to  surrendor  himself  ? — A.  I 
told  him  what  a  kind  man  the  General  was,  and  he  thought  from  the  words  of  the  note 
that  what  I  said  was  true. 


H.^ROLD  Ross  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  Scott :  ,  ' 

Q.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Ross? — A.  At  Prince  Albert. 

Q.  What  is  your  occupation  t — A.   I  am  Deputy  Sherifi". 

Q.  Where  were  you  on  the  SOth  of  March  last  ? — A.   I  was  at  Carlton. 

Q.  In  what  capacity  ? — A.  I  went  up  as  a  volunteer  under  Captain  Moore. 

Q.  When  did  you  go  there,  on  the  20th  ? — A.   On  the  18th,  I  think.  i^^ 

L/  Q.  On  the  18th  of  March  you  went  there  ?— A.  Yes. 

Q.   Do  you  reniambeK  the  20th  of  Mai.-b.'     Were  you  doing  anything  on  that  day 
in  your  capacity  of  volunteer  ? — A.  Nothing;    nothing  particular  at  all. 

Q.  What   duty  were   you   engaged    in   after   you    \fe*jnt  to  Carlton !— A.  Chiefly 
volunteer. 

3 


I  34. 

Q.  Wliat  description  of  duty? — A.  Just  staying  there,  waiting  for  an  attack  on 
Cfirlton. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  stay  there  1 — A.  I  was  there,  we  went  there  on  Thursday, 
aiid  I  was  tliere  until  the  21st.     The  21st  would  be  on  Sunday — on  the  21st. 

'  Q.  What  did  you  do' at  Carlton? — A.  I  saw  Major  Crozier,  and  he  asked  nie  if  I 
would  go  to  Stoney  Lake,  between  three  and  five  miles  from  Carlton,  and  see  certain 
Ejiiglish  and  Scotch  Half  breeds  there,  and  ask  them  to  come  into  the  Fort. 

Q.   Did  you  go  ?-^A.   I  went  and  they  came  in  with  nje. 

Q..  When  did  you  conie  in  1 — A.  We  came  in  the  "same  evening  or  about,  I  suppose, 
sik  o'clock  that  night. 

'  ^.  [Were  you  out  after  that  again  ? — A.  On  the  following  Monday  morning  I  left 
■with  Mr!  Astley.    I  went  out  scouting  on  Monday. 

Q.  Monday,  the  22nd  ? — A.  Yes.  We  went  to  Duck  Lake,  and  from  IJuck  Lake 
w|e  wen*  to  the  8t.  Laurent  church  mission. 
j       Q.  When  did  you  go  back  to  Carlton  ? — A.   Tuesday  night,  about  ele\  en  o'clock. 

Q.  On  the  23rd  ? — Yes,  the  23rd,  and  on  Wednesday,  I  stayed  there  all  day,  and 
about  eleven  o'clock  in  the  evening,  half  past  ten  or  eleven,  Mr.  Astley  said  that  Major 
Orozier  wanted  us  to  go  out  and  see  if  the  Half-breeds  would  intercept  Col.  Irvine  on  the 
route  frbm  Regina  to  Carlton,  and  we  went  out. 

Q.  About  what  time  ? — A.  Between  half  past  ten  and  eleven,  as  near  as  I  can  judge. 

Q.  On  Wednesday  night  ? — A.  On  Wednesday  night,  yes. 

Q.  How  far  did  you  go  ? — A.  Well,  somewliere  near  where  the  battle  of  Duck  Lake 
was  fought,  and  about  a  mile  or  so  between  Dwiii  Lake  and  Carlton,  close  to  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  Did  anything  happen  there? — A^^We  were  taken  prisoners  by  (Jabriel  Duniont 
and  between  sixty  and  one  huiulj*d-TITen. 

Q. !  Did   you  know  any  of  those  beside  Gabriel   Dumont  ? — A.   No,  I    could  not   re- 
ognize  any. 

j  Q.  Will  you  describe  liow  you  were  taken  prisoner? — A.  I  heard  a  sort  of  noise 
behind 'me.  The  horse  at  first  drew  my  attention  to  it  by  picking  up  his  eai's,  and  a  sort 
of  stopping,  and  I  turned  around  and  saw  a  body  of  men  behind  me,  and  I  called  Mr. 
Astley's  attention  to  it,  and  I  wheeled  my  horse  around  and  I  was  surrounded  by  Half- 
l^reeds  and  Indians.  And  he  told  me  to  dismount.  Gabriel  Dumont  came  to  me  and 
ifecogniied  me,  and  said  how  are  you  a  scout,  and  he  told  me  to  dismount,  tiiat  T  was  his 
j)risoner,  and  I  refused  to  dismount,  aiid  they  pulled  me  oft"  the  horse. 

Q.  Were  they  armed  ? — A.  They  weie  all  armed,  every  one  of  them.  Gabriel  Dumont 
^hen  fe(lt  my  revolver,  he  felt  it  under  my  coat,  he  got  quite  excited  and  he  went  to  take 
it  awajt  from  me,  and  I  drew  the  revolver  out  myself,  and  he  held  it,  (witness  showing 
how  it  was  held  holding  his  right  hand  to  his  stomach)  and  I  was  covered  by  aji  Indian 
on  my  right  with  a  gun,  and  there  were  two  more  behind  me. 

Q;  Guns  were  pointed  at  you  ? — A.  Guns  were  pointed  at  me,  and  Mr.  Astley  called 
in  'me  not  to  shoot,  better  hand  over  the  revolver. 

Qi  And  did  you  surrender  ! — A.   I' did. 

Q.  And  what  was  done  with  you  ? — A.  We  were  taken  to  Duck  Lake  and  put  into 
lihe  telegraph  station. 

Q.  What  was  the  aspect  of  Duck  Lake,  at  tliis  time  ?^A.  Full  of  armed  men,  all 
around  the  post.  Guards  all  around  the  post.  Wherever  we  were,  in  front  of  the  building 
on  the  road,  all  around  the  t>uilding  where  we  \f  ere  imprisoned. 


I 


■; 


35         • 

Q.  Where  were  you  put? — A.   In  the  telegraph  office. 

y  What  kind  of  a  buikling  is  that  ? — A.  A  very  small  Imikling. 

Q  How  many  stories  < — A.   A  small  little  liuilding,  as  large  as  an  ordinary  porch. 

Q.  How  many  stories  ? — A.   One. 

Q.  Was  there  any  body  else  in  there,  litside.s  yfni  and  Astley? — A.   No. 

Q.  I  supi)ose  Astley  was  taken  with  you  ?-    A.   Yes,  only  the  two  of  us. 

Q.   liow  long  were  you  kept  there  ? — A.   Till  about  nine  o'clock  tlie  ne.xt   morning, 
as  near  as  I  can  judge. 

Q.   Did  anything  occur  next  morning  ?—^A.   No,  nothing  particular. 

Q.   How  long  did  you  continue  alone  there  ? — With  Mr.  Astley  ? 

^— '  iQ.   Yes  ? — A.   Well,  we  were  tliere  luitil  we  were  remo\  ed  to  Mitchell's  house,  up 

stairs.  -.  .  * 

t^.    And  when  was  that  ?—  A.   That  sanie  morning,  about  nine  o'clock. 

(j.  Tliis  was  on  the  2t)th  .' — A.  t)ii  tlje  26th.  We  were  there  until  the  rest  of  the 
prisoners  came  over  from  Datoche. 

^Q.   And  wliat  time  was  that  ?--A.   They  came  somewhere  about  noon. 
,Q.   This  was  in  the  upjier  story  of  Mitcliell's  liouse  .' — A.   Of  Mitchell's  house. 

\"And  the  other  prisoners  were  sent  up  there  too  ? — A.  They  were  sent  up  with 
•  ■<^-  ' 

Q.    Did  you  see  any  people  about  that  morning? — A.   Outside? 

(j.   Yes  ! — A.   The  square  was  full  of  armed  men  all  tlie  time. 

Q.^Was  thei-e  a  larger  crowd  there  when  the  prisoners  were  brought  in  than  there 
was  in  the  forenoon  before  'I — A.  Yes,  there  was  a  good  many  came  over  with  the  other 
prisoners. 

Q.  How  many  armed  men  did  you  see  there  altogether? — A.  I  should  sav  there 
would  be  <jetween  :500  and  350  men,  as  near  as  I  could  judge.  I  did  not  count  them. 

Q.  Of  what  nationality  ? — A.  French  Half-breeds  and  Indians. 

Q.  What  prjjportion  would  be  Indians? — A.  I  should  say  near  100.  between  75 
and  100.  • 

Q.  Did  anything  occur  that  afternoon  1 — A.  That  afternoon  the  battle  of  Duck 
Lake  took  place. 

Q.   How  do  you  know  ?  A'.   We  could  hear  the  shots. 

Q.  About  wliat  time  ? — A.  About  half  past  tlu'ee  or  four  in  the  afternoon  1  should 
say. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  of  the  men  armed  going  ? — A.  I  saw  them  all  going,  1  saw  about 
300  going. 

Q.  In  the  direction  of  the  battle-tield  ? — A.  Yes,  the  firs;t  intimation  I  had  tliat  the 
battle  was  taking  ijlace  was  Albert  ^lonkman  cdming  upstairs  where,  we  were,  and  we 
asked  him  wliat  was  the  matter,  and  he  said  there  was  a  little  tight  going  on,  at'that 
time  they  were  all  going  then. 

Q.  All  this  armed  force  you  had  seen  were  hurrying  in  that  direction  ? — A.  Hurry- 
ing in  that  direction. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  shooting  and  firing  before  going  in  ^Mitchell's  ?—  A.  Xo,  after 
that  we  heard  rifle  shots. 

i'  -  ■        ■      • 


36 


Q.  Anything  else? — A.  No,  nothing  else,  I  did  not  hear  the  cannon,  they  had  a 
cannon  there.   I  did  not  hear  the  gun. 

Q.  What  occurred  that  afternoon,  after  you  heard  the  tiring  1 — A.  Well,  after  we 
heard  the  firing,  about'  half  an  hour  afterwq,rds,  they  came  back,  some  of  them  came  back, 
some  of  the  men  came  upstairs,  one  Fiddler  in  particular. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  prisoner  Riel  that  afternoon  ? — A.  Yes,  I  saw  Mr.  Riel  that 
afternoon.  '  ■* 

Q.  Where? — A.  He  came  upstairs.  \ 

Q.  When  ?  After  the  tiring  or  before? — He  came  up  before  the  tiring  and  he  spoke 
to  me  upstairs. 

Q.  What  ()id  he  say? — A.  He  called  meiiy  my  name  and  asked  me  how  I  was.  Spoke 
to  me  and  said  I  need  not  be  afraid,  that  I  would  not  suffer  at  his  hands,  something  to 
that  effect^  I  forget  the  exact  words  that  he  said  now,  but  then  after  the  tight  he 
came  upj   '  . 

Q.  And  what  did  he  say  then  ? — A.  The  first  thing  he  said  was  something  about 
Newett,  one  of  the  men  that  was  brought  in  as.  prisoner. 

'!  Q.  What  did  he  say  about  that  ? — A.  He  said  he  thought  he  would  be  l)etter  with 
us  than  with  anybody  else.  We  were  his  friends  and  we  could  look  after  him  better 
than  anybody  else,  and  he  put  him  upstairs  and  then  he  and  Mr.  Astley  were  speaking 
something  about  tlie  battle. 

Q.   pid  you  hear  the  conversation  between  them  ? — A.   I  heard  the  conversation. 

Q.  What  was  it? — A.  Mr.  Riel  said  the^roops  fired  first,  and  Mr.  Astley  suggested 
that  perhaps  the  shot  went  off  by  accident,  and  Mr.  Riel  said — well  he  did  not  agree  with 
•him  for  some  time  afterwards — he  said  perhaps  that  was  the  way. 

t  Q.  Did  he  say  anything  else  1 — A.  Aud  he  said  :  When  I  heard  the  shot  I  called  on 
my  men|in  the  name  of  God  to  tire.    And  he  seemed  (juite  proud  of  it. 

Q.   pid  he  say  so? — A.  No,  judging  from  his  actions,  that  is  all. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  reniain  in  the  upper  story  of  Mitchell's  store  ? — A.  Until  the 
31st.     On  the  morning  of  the  31st  we  were  sent  to  Carlton. 

Q;  IBy  whom  1 — A.  By  Mr.  Riel  himself.  We  came  out  in  sleighs.  He  said  we 
were  going  to  Carlton. 

Q.  How  did  you  go  to  Carlton  1 — A.  In  sleighs. 

■.  Q.   Did  you  go  alone  ? — A.   No,  seven  of  us  altogether. 

Q.  Seven  persons  1 — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Anybody  besides  the  piisoner  ?  — A.  The  Indian  and  Half-breed  guards. 

Q.   You  were  taken  under  guard  to  Carlton  ? — A.  Yes,  under  guard. 

Q.  JHow  long  did  you  remain  at  Carlton  ? — A.  Until  the  3rd  of  April. 

Q.  I  Who  w^s  in  command  at  Carlton? — A.  Albert  Monkman. 

'       Q. 
Q. 

Q.   What  was  done  with  you  then?— A.   We  were  then  ordered  from  Curlton.   We 


\V*re  there  many  men  there? — A.   About  150  to  200. 

Armsd  ?— A.  All  armed.' 

You  were  kept  there  until  what  day  did  you  say? — A.  Until  April  3rd. 

What  was  done  with  you  then?— A.   We  were  then  ordered  from  Curlton. 


were  called  up  about  two  o'clock  in  the  morning. 

Q:  ( )rdei'efr  up  where  ? — A.  For  Batoche.  We  were  called  up  about  two  o'clock  in 
the  inoiiiing,  and  we  started  for  Hatoi^he,  and  when  we  were  leaving,  the  buildings  were 
set  on  I  ire.  . 


37 

Q.  Then  the  Fort  was  deserted  at  the  time  you  left  ? — A.  Yes,  they  deserted  the  Fort. 

Q.  And  they  niarched  to  Batoclie  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  done  with  you  when  you  reached  Batoche? — A.  We  were  put  in  the. 
lower  Hat  of  a  house' owned  hy  Baptiste  Boyer  for  that  day,  and  we  were  put  upstairs  oa 
the  second  flat. 

Q.  And  how  long  did  you  remain  there  ? — A.  We  were  there  till  the  end  of  the 
campaign.  That  was  our  prison  at  the  time  of  peace,  and,  if  there  was  any  excitement, 
we  were  shoved  into  the  cellar  of  an  adjoining  building. 

Q.  How  many  times  were  you  put  down  into  the  cel'ar  ? — A.   three  or  four  time.s, 

Q.  Do  you  remember  how  long  you  were  there  the  last  time  ? — A.   About  teii  days. 

Q.  Continuously  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  the  cellar  ? — A.   In  the  cellar. 

Q.  How  many  prisoners  were  there  in  the  cellar  ? — A.   Seven. 

Q.  What  was  the  size  of  the  place  ? — A.  About  si.xteen  feet  stjuare  and  nine  fleet 
deep. 

Q.  Any  other  precautions  taken  to  prevent  you  escaping  besides  putting  you  in  the 
cellar  ? — A.  Always  a  guard  ujistairs,  and  the  trap  was  very  well  secured,  so  there  was 
no  cliance  of  us  escaping  by  knocking  the  trap  up. 

Q.  Any  thing  else ;  Were  jou  shackled  ? — A.  We  weie  tied  every  night  with  our 
hands  behind  us. 

Q.  When  did  you  first  see  tiie  prisoner  after  you  were  taken  to  Batoche  ? — A.  I 
saw  him  at  ditl'erent  times.      I  saw  him  every  day  n^rly. 

Q.  What  was  lie  doing  1 — A.  He  would  be  out  addressing  the  men,  talking  to 
tlieui. 

Q.  Could  you  say  whjit  was  said  to  them  1 — A.  No,  it  was  in  French,  I  don't . 
understand  French,   apparently  giving  orders. 

Q.  You  don't  know  ? — A.  I  could  not  say  what. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  visit  you  during  the  time  you  were  contini-d  there? — A  He  came,  I 
think  it  was  two  or  three  times.  1  am  not  sure  as  to  the  number  of  visits.  <  )nce  particularly 
he  came  and  I  asked  him  fur  a  little  e.vercise,  and  he  said  he  would  see  aboiit  it.  He  did 
not  come  back  for  some  days,  perhaps  two  clays  after  that,  and  I  heard  him  talking 
outside  and  I  went  out,  and  lie  said  that,  under  the  circumstances,  he  could  not  allow  >is 
to  go  out  at  all  :  that  we  would  ha\  e  to  stay  in. 

Q.   Was  that  ail  the  conversation  you  had  with  him  ? — A.   Yes,  that  is  about  all. 

Q.  When  did  you  last  see  hiui  ! — A.  I  saw  hiin 

Q.  That  is  at  Batoche  J — A.  About  eleven  o'clock  on  the  12th,  or  a  little  earlier 
than  that.  It  was  at  the  time  they  called  Mr.  Astley,  on  the  I'jth  of  May,  the  day  of 
the  Charge. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  that  day  ?  -  A.  He  came  and  opened  the  hatch  in 
the  cellar  and  called  Mr.  Astley.  Mr.  A-stley,  he  said,  come  up  and  stop  the  troops 
advancing,  for  if  they  hurt  any  of  our  families  we  will  massacre  all  the  prisoners  in  the 
cellar. 

Q.   That  is  what  he_said  ? — A.  That  is  what  he  said. 

Q.  D^you  remendjer  having  any  con\  ersation  with  the  prisoner  after  the  Fish  Creek 
battle  i^A.  After  the  Fish  Creek  battle,  I  remember  Kiel  one  time — 1  cannot  tell  the 
day,jOT  date — saying  that  they  had  gained  two  victories  and  they  wanted  to  gain  a  third, 
afia  they  could  make  better  terms  with  the  Government. 


/ 


f  /'       Q.   Tliat  \ 
V       •     Q.  When 


was  afte 


/  the  Fish  Cr 


38 


•eek  Hght  ? — A.   Yes  ;  after  the  24th  of  April. 


re  were  you  confined  at  this  time,  in  the  cellar  or  in  the  l)uil(lin<{  ? — A.  We 
were  taken  out  of  the  cellar  and  we  were  in  the  building. 

Q.   TJliis  was  during  one  of  his  visits  to  you  \ — A.   Yes,  during  one  of  his  visits. 

Q.  Was  the  building  in  which  you  were  confined  attacked, or  the  huildinj,'  above  the 
cellar  in  which  you  were  conKned  ?   Did  they  attack  it  at  any  time  ? — A.   No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  .shell  ? — A.  That  was  done  liy  the  troop.s.  I  think  it  was 
the  eleventh  of  May  there  was  a  shell  went  through  the  building. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Kiel  shortly  after  that? — A.  .1  did  not  see  him.  He  came  to  the 
cellar — the  hatch  —and  asked  me  if  we  were  safe,  all  safe.  I  knew  his  voice,  and  we  said 
we  were,  bnd  he  said :  I  am  glad  to  hear  it.  And  he  went  out  of  the  building  and  came  Ixick 
again.  We  could  hear  him  walking  along  the  Hoor,  and  he  said:  I  forgot  to  tell  you  you 
had  better  call  on  God,  for' you  are  in  his  hands. 

Q.   Was  that  all  he  said  ?  —A.  That  is  all  he  said.  ■ 

By  Mr.  Fitzpatrick :  ■  .  '  | 

Q.  Mr.  Riel  was  not  witli\the  party  that  ari^ested  you,  was  he? — A.   He  was  not. 

Q.  fl'^  fii'st  ti"'f  >ou  sa\\  Mr-.  Iliel  was  after  you  were  put  in  Mitchell's  house,  was 
it  not?— lA.   I  had  seen  him  a  vear  before  that. 


Q.  (bn  the  occasion  in  question  we  are  talking  about  ? — A,  Tliat  was  the  first  time 
I  saw  him. 

Q.  You  say  you  saw  the  troops  leave  for  the  Duck  Lake  fight  also  ? — A.  His  trooj>s> 
yes,  the  rebels.  ^ 

Q.   Did  you  see  Riel  with  them  ? — A.   No,  not  going  away,      I  did  not  see  him. 

'  Q.   If   he  had   begn   there,   of  course   you  would   have   seen   him  % — A.   I  saw  him 

outside.  , 

Q.   When  they  were  going  away  diil  you   see   Mr.    Riel  with   them,   going  away  to 
'  l)uck  Lkke  ?— A.  i  did  not. 

Q.  Had  he  been  with  them  you  would  have  seen  him,  would  you  not  ? — A.  I  might 
not.      There  was  a  big  crowd  going  away. 

Q.  There  were  300  going  out  ?  — A.   Yes. 

Q.  And  you  say  they  were  half  an  hour  away,  half  an  hour  elapsed  from  the  time 
they  left  till  the  tiiiie  they  came  Vjack  ? — A.  About  half  an  hour,  I  should  say,  perhaps  a 
little  more. 

Q.  When  Mr.  Riel  saw  you  in  Mitchell's,  the  first  thing  he  said  was  that  he  was 
glad  to  See  you  ? — A.  No,  he  did  not  say  he  was  gla'd  to  see  me.  He  said  ;  How  do  you 
do  ?     You  shan't  suffer.  > 

Q.  Who  wanted  you  to  go  down  to  the  cellar  ai  the  time  you  were  jmt  in  the  cellar 
at  Batoche,  who  put  you  there? — A.  We  were  down  diti'erent  times.  At  one  time  or 
twice  Deloniie,  another  time  it  was  a  French  Half-breed,  his  name  I  have  forgotten. 

Q.  Neither  of  those  times  was  Riel  present  when  you  were  put  down  in  the  cellar  1 
— A.   No,  he  was  not. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  asked  to  go  outside  for  exexx-ise,  Riel  said  to  you  that  you  had 
l»ett#r  not  go  out  because  the  Indians  wanted  to  kill  you,  did  he  not  ? — A.  He  did  not. 

Q.  Did  he  not  give  you  to  understand,  at  that  time,  that  that  was  the  reason  ? — . 
A.   He  did  not.  .^ 


39 


Q.   Did  you  not  know  that  was  the  resison  ? — A.   I  had  a  sort  of  idea,  the  Sioui  were  . 
rather  dangerous  at  that  time.     It  was  not"  from  any  information  from  him. 

Q.  You   knew    very  well  the    protectors  you  had  there  were  the  Half-breeds  as 
against   the  Indians  t — A.   Certainly  we  did.      We  looked  to  the  Half-breeds  for  protec-  . 
tion. 

By  Jllr.  Scott. 

Q.  You  say,  Mr.  Ross,  that  Gabriel  Dumont  was  the  leader  of   the  party  w  ho  took 
you  prisoner  ? — A.  He  was. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  aftenvards  ? — A.  Yes.  / 

Q.   Wliere?--A.   I  saw  liim  at  Batoche.     I   saw   him   at  Duck   Lake.      I    don't  re- 
member wlietlier  I  saw  him  at  Carlton  or  not. 

Q.   Did  you   see  any  <?thers  of  the  party  who   took   you  prisoner  afterwards  ?^A. 
One  Indian,  that  is  all  I  can  remend)er. 

Q.  Tlieu  Gabriel  Dumaut  formed  part  of  the  same  party  that  you  saw  Riel  in  com- 
pany with  afterwards  ? — A.   Certainly. 


y 


Peter  Tompkins,  sworn,  examiiied  by  Mr.  Casgrain._  _     -^ 

nere  did  you  live  in  the  month  of  March  last  ? — -A.   Duck  Lake. 

Q.   Do  you  remember  tlie  1 8th  of  March  last  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  happened  on  that  day  ?-p-A.  Nothing  particular  happened  on  that  day; 
till  towards  evening. 

Q.  Well,  what  happened  towards  evening  ? — A.  Towards  evening,  I  was  up  at  the 
mail  station,  and  the  telegraph  operator  came  up  there  for  me  and  wanted  me  to  go  and 
repair  the  line,  tlie  telegraph  line  was  down. 

Q.  Well,  what  did  you  do  1 — A.  I  told  them  I  would  go. 

Q.   Did  you  go?— A.   I  did. 

(j.  Well,  what  happened  1  -A.  I  went  and  got  a  horse  and  rig  and  tried  to  get 
anotlier  man.  I  had  considerable  ditticulty  in  getting  another  man,  and  finally  I  got  my 
horse  and  brought  him  to  Duck  Lake  to  the  telegraph  office,  and  the  miller,  Mr.  McKean, 
volunteered  to  come  along  witli  me,  an<l  the  operator  got  a  message  that  we  were  to 
start  for  Duck  Lake  at  12  oV-lock  at  night,  start  about  midnight  at  Duck  Lake  to  repair 
the  line. 


-A.   I   repaired   the   line,   in   two   diflFerent 


Q.   You   repaired '  the  line  didn't   you  ?- 
places. 

Q.  Well,  what  happened  to  you  after  you  repaired  the  line  ! — A.  When  we  were 

repairing   the   line,  there  were  aliout    30   Half-breeds   came   rusliing  down  on   us  and 

arrested  us.  j 

i- 
Q.   Did  you  know, any  of  them  ? — A.  Yes.' 

Q.   Who  were  they  t — A.  I  knew  the  man  that  was  in  charge. 

Q.  Who  was  ft  ?-7A.  Joseph  Delorme  was  one  of  the  men  who  arrested  me,  and  Jean  ■ 
Baptiste  Parenteau  was  the  other. 

Q.   What  did   they  do  with  you  ? — A.   Tliey  told  us  to  surrender  in  French,  at   least 
that  is. what  I  understootl  them  to  mean,  and  they  took  us  down  by  Walter  and  Bakers ' 
store.  / 

Q.   Well,  did  you  see  anything  strange  at  Walter  and   Bakers   store  ?— A.  I   saw 
them  going  through  the  store,  looting  everything  there  was  in  it. 


y 


■to 

Q.  Who  was  goiiif?  through  the  stoi-c  ? — A.  The  Half-ljreeds  and  Indian^,  there 
were  not  iiiaiiy  Indians  there.  j 

Q.   Were  they  ariu^d  ? — A.   Yes,  they  were  all  armed. 

Q.  Whom  else  did  you  see  there,  did  you  see  in  particular  there  any  l)Ooy  that 
you  recognised  f^A.  Well,  I  saw  quite  a  few  that  I  reingiiized,  I  saw  (Jahriel  Duinont, 
and  when  we  were  sent  upstairs  I  saw  Mr.  Lash,  the  Imlian  agent. 

Q.  You  were  taken  uj)stairs  in  Walter  and  Baker's  store  ? — A.  Yes,  we  were  sent 
upstairs,  and  I  seen  Lash,  Marion,  Joseph  Gagnou,  Ml-.  Walters,  William  Tompkins  and 
quite  a  few  others  upstairs.  ! 

Q.  What  were  they  doing  there  ? — A.  Most  of  them  were  prisoners.  CJeorge  Ness 
was  another  man. 

Q.   Was  there  a  guard  there  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  .pould  you  get  out  of  the  house,  could  you  have  gotten  out  of  the  house? — A. 
Not  witJ^out  a  guard  following  us.  , 

Q.  There  was  a  guard  over  you  all  the  time  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  how  long  did  you  stay  there,  how  long  were  you  kept  there? — A.  We 
werp  kept  there  till  about  nine  o'clock,  I  should  Judge,  the  next-morning. 

Q.  That  would  be  the  19th?— A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  were  you  taken  to  then? — A.  We  were  taken  to  the  church,  across  the 
road. 

Q.  Whajt  was  the  church  used  for  at  the  time  you  were  taken  there  ? — A.  It  ap- 
peared to  be  used  as  a  council  room  and  barracks  and  prison,  and  a  restaurant  and  every- 
thing else. 

Q.  Well,  whom  did  you  see  there  ? — A.  I  seen  a  whole  church  full  of  people  there. 
I  knew  some  of  them  and  some  of  them  I  did  not  know. 

Q.   WeTe  the  people  armt-  1    — A.   Yes. 

Q..  Were  there  any  Indians  there  ? — Yes. 

Q.  What  tooTi  place  wlien  they  took  you  to  the  cliurch  ?  Was  there  anything  done 
there  by  the  rebels  whom  you  saw  ? — A.  Yes,  they  brought  some  freighters  there,  and  the 
prisoner  addressed  the  people  there. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  ? — A.  Well,  he  spoke  in  French,  and  I  did  not  understand 
what  he  .said,  except  towards  the  last.  Tke  last  thing  he  said — I  undei-stood  him  to 
say,  to  tell  his  men — he  asked  them  what  was  Carlton  or  what  was  Prince  All)ert  ? 
They  are  nothing.     March  on  my  brave  ai-niy.     I  understood  him  to  say  that. 

Q.  You  lieard  the  prisoner  say  that  ? — A.   I  understood  the  prisoner  to  say  that. 
Q.  To  a  crowd  of  |)eople  who  were  standing  before  him  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Was  tliis  in  the  church  or  outside  the  church  ? — A.  In  the  church,  he  was  ad- 
dressing them  from  right  in  front  of  the  altar. 

Q.!  Well,  who  appeared  to  be  the  leader  of  the  crowd  there  ? — A.  The  prisoner. 

Q.  Did  anything  else  take  place  in  the  churcli  that  day  ? — A.  Yes,  we  had  our 
dinner  Sn  the  church.     And  there   were  two  men  tried  or  1  understood  them  to  be  tried. 

Q.I  Who  were  they  ? — A.  Tried  by  the  prisoner.   ,   ■ 

I       Q.'  What  for? — A.  For  not  being  with  him  and  liis  movement.    They  were  William 
Boyer  and  Charles  Nolin.  '  I 

Q.  Well,  were  they  acquitted  or  sentenced,  or  what  became  of  them  ? — A.  I  don't 


41 

know  what  l)ecaine  of  Nolin.  I  did'nt  hear  his  trial,  but  Boyer  Mr.  Riel  had  a  talk 
with,  and  when  he  was  through  talking,  Mr.  Boyer  spoke  in  his  own  defense,  and  the 
prisoner  said  that  instead  of  it  lieing  a  dishonor  to  him,  it  was  an  honor.  I  understood 
him  to  say  so,  he  was  talking  French. 

Q.   It  was  an  honor  to  whom  1 — A.  To  Btyer. 

Q.  Was  this  trial  carried  on  before  Riel  only  or  bbfqre  any  others  acting  with  him  ? 
— A.  Riel  was  standing  on  the  platform,  and  Boyer  stood  up  from  among  us  men  and 
spoke  in  his  own  defence  from  there. 

Q.   Did  j'ou  hear  or  see  lyiything  about  that  council  while  you  were  in  that  ghurch  ? 
A.  Yes,  I  understood  them  to  be  electing  a  council  there. 

Q.  Did  you  see  theriMyncil  elected  ? — A.  Yes, 

Q 


Who  were  the  councillors  1 — A.    I  can  name  some  of  them,  I  can't  name  them  all" 


Q.  Name  some  of  them? — A.  Gabriel  Dumont  was  the  man  who  called  them  out  5 
he  called  Baptiste  Boyer,  Joseph  Delonue,  Moise  Ouellette  and  sevei-al  more  I  don"t 
remember.       j 

Q,  Well.iwas  this  before  or  after  this  trial  took  place? — A.  I  think  it  was  after  the 
trial  took  plate. 

Q.  Well,  wliere  did  you  go  from  that  church  i — How  long  were  you  kept  there  ' 
— A.  We  where  kept  there  till  about  nine  o'clock  the  next  evening,  and  then  we  were 
sent  down  to  Oarnot's  place. 

Q.   Philippe  Garnot's  place  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  capacity  was  he  acting  in  do  you  know  ? — A.  He  was  acting  as  secretary 
to  the  council. 

Q.  To  Kiel's  council  1 — A.  Yes,  we  were  told  that  we  would  be  sent  down  there,  and' 
there  would  be  a  few  men  .sent  with  us  to  look  after  us,  that  our  word  of  honor  would  be 
taken  that  we  would  not  escape ;  so  about  nine  o'clock  that  evening  we  were  sent  down 
there  and  there  was  about  in  the  neighbourhood  of  fifteen  men  came  down  to  see  whether 
we  kept  our  word  of  honor. 

Q.  Were  these  armed  ? — A.  Yes.  .  ^ 

Q.  Well,  how  long  did  you  stay  in  Philippe  Garnot's"  house  ? — A.  Well,  I  could  not 
say.   I  don't  remember  how  long  we  stayed  there,  we  stayed  there  quite  a  while. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  Batoche  ? — A.  To  Duck  Lake. 

Q;  Did  you  go  there  of  your  own  fiee  will  ? — A.  No. 

Q,'  How  were  you  taken  there  ? — A.   Taken  there  as  prisoners  and  by  a  strong  guard 

Q.   By  whom  ? — A.   One  of  the  guards  told  me  it  was  by 

Q.  You  were  taken  there  any  way  to  Duck   Lake  under  a  strong  guard  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q,  Of  armed  men  ? — A.  Of  armed  men,  yes. 

Q.  Where  were  you  placed  at  Duck  Lake  ] — A.  We  were  hurried  upstairs  into 
Mitchell's  residence. 

Q.  Hilliard  Mitchell's  house  ?^A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  any  bo<ly  upstairs  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Whom  did  you- meet  ? — A.  Harold  Ross  and  John  Astley. 

Q.  The  witness  Rossj  who  has  just  Ijeen  heard  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  what  was  done  to  you  there  or  what  took  place  while  you  were  there  ? — 
A.  Just  as  we  were  coming  to  Duck  Lake,  Albert  Monkman  galloped  out  of  the  yard 


-V 


42 

and  came  tifme^i=iis,  and  he  ordered  liis  men  up  to  the  front  and  he  said  the  police  are 
coming  jrpm  Carlton.     He  ordered  some  men  who  were  with  us  to  the  front,  that  the 


police  ti  ere  coming  from  Carlton,  and  in  Cree,  at  the  same  time,  he  called  for  us  again 
and  wanted  to  know  wlio  had  his  gun  in  our  party,  and  then  the  man  that  was  driving  the 
team,  the  sleigh  that  we  were  in,  put  the  whip  to  his  horses  and  got  in' as  quick  as  he 
could,  aid  then  we  were  taken  upstairs.   ' 

Q.   And  what  happenned  while  you  were  up  there  ,'^A.   Well  then,  when  we  were 
up  there,  we  could  see  quite  a  few  of  them  going  off  towards  Carlton. 


Q. 

^,  all 
"       Q. 

'  Q. 
Q. 

A.   Yes 
Q. 


Quite  a  few  of  the  Half-hreeds  1 — A.  Of  the  Half-breeds,  yes,  and  Indians. 

And  how  luiuiy  weie  there  going  off  altogether  1 — A.   I  suppose  probably  over 
that  went.  , 

This  was  on  the  2Gth  day  of  March,  was  it  j — A.   I  can't  swear  to  the  day.  ; 

It  was  in  the  nioutli  nf  .March  last  1 — A.   Ye.s. 
Well,  did  you   hear  anytJiintr   wliile  you  were   upstairs  in   Mitchell's   house? — 

What  did  you  hear  ] — A.  Well,  I  heard  a  cannon  go  off  a  couple  of  times,  and 


..,[.      .. „,„  J„„  „^„>  .        .*.      ..  V-..,    ^ — „.-     —     .-     — ,-.- 

then  wh^n  the  Half-breeds  returned,  Riel  rode  into  the  yard  on  horseback. 


The  prisoner  rode   into  the   yard   on   horseback  ?^— A."  Yes,  and  turned  his  horse 
to  the  back  of.  the  building,  and  with  his  liat  he  was  waving  and  cheering  his 


Q. 

around 

men,  and  he  thanked  them. 

Q.  He  apparently  came  in  with  them,  didn't  he  ? — A.  Yes,  he  came  in  just  along 
with  them  ;  the  men  came  with  liim,  the  men  behind  him  and  some  in  front  of  him,  and 
he  waved  his  liat  cheering  and  hurrahing,  and  he  thanked  Ste  Marie,  and  Mt.  Jean- 
Baptist*  and  St.  Joseph  for_^his  victories. 

Q.  Did  anybody  coino  upstairs  into  Mitchell's  house  when  you  weie  theifl  oh  that 
same  occasion  I  — A.   After  night. 

Q.  Yes  ? — A.  Tlie  pri.soner  came  upstairs  and  before  he  came  up,  Charles  Newett, 
who  was  wounded  on  Dark  Lake  iield,  was  brought  to  the  door  and  we  helped  him  up. 

•Q.    \yho  helped  him  up  ? — .V.   The  pri.soners  who  were  there. 

Q.   Helped  him  into  the  room  '  -A.  Garnot  helped  him  up. 

Q.   (iarnot  was  there  too  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  (iabriel  Dunioiit  around  there? — A.  Yes,  Gabriel  IJuraont  rode  into 
the  yard  a  little  while  after.  I  think  it  was  after  the  prisoner  had  boi;n  (dieering,  he  rode 
into  the  yard  and  said  in  dec  to  bring  out  the  prisoners  and  kill  them. 

Q.  Well,  you  .say  that  the  pri.soner  went  into  Mitchell's  house  with  those  some  time 
after  the  volunteer  was  taken  up,  did'nt  you  ?--A.   Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anythinu'  there  / — A.  Yes,  I  don't  remember  everything  that  he  said 
there,  I  remember  him  speaking  to  the  wounded  man. 

Q.  Djfl  he  speak  of  the  tight  that  had  just  taken  place?— A.  Yes,  one  thing  he  said 
about  the  fight  was  that  the  volunteers  or  the  police  had  fired  a  shot  tir.st.  They  fired 
first  and  when  they  fired  he  said,  lie  told  me  distinctly  that  he  ordtied  his  men  to 
fire  :  "In  the  name  of  the  Father  Almighty,  who  created  us,  fire."  Tliem  is  the  words 
he  used.  _         •' 

Q.   Did  he  say  any  thing  else  at  that  time  ? — A.   Nothing  tliat  I  remember  just  now. 

Q.  Well,  did  anything  take  place  at  that  time,  did  the  prisoner  go  down  then,  or  did 
he  come  back  ? — A.  Afterwards  he  went  downstairs,  and  some  time  he  came  to  see  us. 


43 


Q.  Well,  what  was  he  doing  there  from  what  you  could  see  ? — A.  From  what  we 
could   see,  I  thouj^ht  at  the  time  that   he  was  running  the  whole  thing. 

Q.  Whenever  you  had  any  communication  to  make  to  anyliody,  whom  did  you  make 
it  to  1 — A.  Well,  if  ever  we  wanted  anything  in  particular,  we  generally  applied  to  Mr. 
Kiel. 

Q.   The  prisoner  ?-— A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  any  message  sent  to  anybody  at  that  time  ! — A.  I  wrote  a  letter  home 
myself. 

Q.  Well,  was  there  anything  else  sent? — A.  There  was  one  of  our  men,  who  was  a 
prisoner  there,  sent  to  Carlton  with  a  message. 

Q.   By  whom  ? — A.   By  the  prisoner.  ■  . 

Q.  Who  was  sent  1 — A.  Thomas  Sanderson. 

Q.  What  for? — A.  He  was  sfut  to  Carlton  to  tell  Major  Crozier  to  send  some  men 
and  take  the  dead  off  the  Held,  to  tell  tlieiii  they  were  allowed  to  take  their  men  off  the 
field    unmolested. 

Q.  Did  the  prisoner  say  anything  further  to,  you  on  that  oeca.-iou  ? — A.  Nodiini; 
that  I  can  rememher  just  now. 

Q.   Well,  did  you  remain  at  Duck  Lake   any  length  of  time? — A.   We  remained  af 
Duck  Lake   quite  a  while  till  after  the  police   left  Carlton.    We  remained  at  Dhck  Lnke 
till  a  day  or  so  after  the  police  left  Carlton. 

Q.  Then  how  did  you  go  to  Carlton  ? — A.   We  were  taken  to  Carlton. 

Q.  By  whom,  by  the  Half-breeds  ?— By  the  Half-breeds. 

Q.  Then  Where  did  you  go  or  where  were  you  taken  to? — A.  When  we  left  Carlt'm 
we  were  taken  frofii  Carlton  to  Batoche  by  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  Well,  what  took  place  at  Carlton?  Did  anything  take  place  at  Carlton  before 
you  left  1 — A.   Yes,  they  had  set  tire  to  the  police  stables  before  we  left. 

Q.   Who  had  l — A.  The    Half-breeds,   and  the  whole  place  apparently  was  on  tire  i 
just  as  we  got  up  the  hill,  we  could  see  by  the  tire  and  smoke  that  there  was  more  than      ' 
one  building  on  tire.  '' 

Q.  You  say  you  were  taken  to  Batoche,  to  where  were  you  taken  at  Batoche  ?^A 

To  Baptiste  Boyer's  store. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  kept  there? — A.  We  were  kept  there  till  about  the  time  of 
the  Fish  Creek  tight,  when  we  were  removed  to  the  cellar. 

Q.  Who  was  with  you  at  that  time? — A.  There  was  seven  of  us:  Mr.  Lash.  Mi-. 
Astley,  Mr.  Ross,  Mr.  William  Tompkins,  Mr.  McKean,  and  Mr.  Woodcock.         ' 

Q.  Was  there  a  guard  over  you  ? — A.  Yes,  always  a  guard  over  us. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  have  occasion  to  see  the  prisoner  during  the  time,  during  the  time- 
you  were  there  ? — A.  The  prisoner  used  to  come  in  and  see  us  some  times. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  ? — A.  Yes,  he  used  to  speak  with  us  e\  ery  tiine  he 
came,  pretty  near. 

Q.  What  was  he  doing  there  that  you  could  see  of  him  '  -A.  From  what  I  could  see'; 
of  him  I  thought  that  he  was  apparently  the  leader. 

Q.   Well,  did  you  hear  anyljody  giving  any  orders  there? — A.  Oi\ing  orders  ] 

Q.   Yes,  giving  orders? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Wimm  ? — A.  I  heard  the  prisoner  ordering  his  men  to  go  on  guard  one  nightv 


44  •  ■  ' 

Q.  Well,  if  any  oic^rs  were  given,  who  gave  them,  who  wcue  they  given  Ity  .'—A. 
The  orders  that  I  lieard  given  were  given  by  tlie  prisoner. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  stay  at  Baptiste  Boyer's  house  all  tlie  time  ?— A.  We  stayed  there 
until  we  were  removed  to  the  cellar.  ( 

.Q.  How  long  were  you  kept  in  the  cellar? — A.  I  don't  recollect  how  long  we  were 
in  the  cellar  ;  the  first  time  we  were  kept  there  for  several  hours. 

Q.  Were  you  at  lilierty  to  go  all  around  the  cellar,  or  were  you  tied  up  or  howl — 
A.  We  were  not  tied  till  the  time  of  the  Fish  Creek  fight  or  aliout  that  ;  l)ef()re  it,  the 
day  of  the  fight,  Delorme  came  down  the  cellar  and  ordered  three  guards  to  come 
down  after  him,  and  he  ordered  them  to  cock  their  guns,  which  were  douMe  barrel  shot 
guns,  and  they  covered  the  men,  while  they  tied  me  hands  and  feet,  and  we  Were  left 
that  way  till  eleven  o'clock  next  day,  supposed  to  be  that  way. 

Q.  Did  anything  liappen  after  that  before  you  were  released  ? — A.  Every  night 
that  we  were  in  the  cellar  we  were  tied  mostly. 

Q.   How  were  you  released? — A.   I  was  released  by  General  Middleton's  men. 

Q.  Before  you  were  released  did  you  see  the  pri.soner  at  all  have  any  conversation 
with  anyboily  in  your  presence? — A.  The  day  he  came  to  the  cellar  after  Mr.  Astley  I 
did,  the  day  that  Batoche  was  taken. 

Q.  Till'  d,iy  that  Batoche  was  taken  you  saw  him  come  to  the  cellar  to  see  Astley  ? 
— A.  Yes,  he  came  for  Astfey  ;  he  came  there  in  a  very  excited  manner  ;  he  was  very 
much  excited,  ami  so  were  the  men  who  were  with  him.  We  could  tell  by  the  way  they 
flung  the  stones  ort' tiie  cellar  door.  They  just  sent  them  rolling  all  over  the  building 
and  he  came  to  the  door  of  the  cellar  and  the  first  words  I  heard  him  say  was  :  "Astley  ! 
■  Astley!  come  here  and  go  tell  Middleton  if  they — 1  think  massacre  was  the  word 
usect— if  they  massacre  our  women  and  children,  we  will  massacre  you  prisoners. 

■Q. — Well,  from  that  time  till  your  release  did  anything  happen  between  you  and 
the  prisoner  ! — A.   No,  I  did  not  see  the  prisoner  afterwards. 

Examined  by  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  : 

Q.  You  .speak  Cree  perfectly,  do  you  not  ?  —  A.  Not  perfectly,  I  speak  C'ree 
pretty  well.  I 

Q.  You  were  arrested  on  what  day? — A.  I  was  arrested  about  four  o'clock  on  the 
19th  of  March.  ' 

Q.  You  saw  Mr.  Riel  for  the  first  time  when?— A.  I  am  not  positive  whether  I 
saw  him  at  Walter's  Store  or  at  the  church  for  the  first  time.  I  am  certain  of  seeing 
him  at  the  church,  but  I  don't  remember  whether  I  saw  him  at  Walter's  or  not. 

Q.  You  saw  him  at  the  church? — A.  I  saw  him  at  the  church,  but  I  am  not 
positive  whether  I  saw  him  at  the  store  or  not. 

Q.   Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  liim  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  At  the  church  ?— A.  Yes. 


What  did  he  say  to  you  and  what  did  you  say  to  him  ? — A.  I  asked  him  ii  he 
would  respect  my  property,  and  he  said  my  property  would  be  resjiected  and  he  fjave  me 
leave  to  take  my  horse  out  of  the  cutter  that  some  Half-breed  had  kindly  hitched  him  up  to. 

Q.  Some  Halt  breed  had  taken  your  horse  and  he  told  the  Half-breed  to  deliver 
your  horse  up  to  you  and  you  got  him  back  ? — A.  No,  some  Half  breed  had  it  hitched 
up  to  a  cutter  and  tied  the  horse  up  to  a  post,  and  I  asked  leave  to  undo  it  and  feed  him 
some  hay,  and  he  gave  me  permission  to  do  so. 

Q.  And  he  told  you  your  property  would  be  respected?     A.  He  told  me  it  would. 


45 

•Q.   Now  you  heard  Mr.  Riel  make  a  speech  to  his  men,  did  you  not? — A.  Yes. 

y.  You  heard  him  tell  that  Carlton  and  Prince  Albert  w;ere  nothing  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   And  did  not  amount  to  anything  1 — A.   Yes.  j 

Q.  Wa.s  he  very  far  from  you  when  he  made  that  littlie  speech  i  — A.  Xo,  he  was 
about  as  far  as  vou  are  from  me  now.  _ 

Q.   That  little  speech  was  delivered  by  him  to  his  men  in  French,  was  it  not  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  would  liave  no  objection  now  to  repeat  the  little  speech,  the  substantial 
words  he  used,  would  you  1 — A.  Well  as  near  as  I  can  repeat  the  words  he  used,  1  don't 
know  whether  I  can  repeat  them  now  or  not.  He  said  :  "  Qu'est-ce  (jue  c'est  <|ue  Carl- 
ton ?  Qu'est-ce  ijue  c'est  que  Prince-Albert  ?  Rien.  Mm'chons,  mes  braves  !  "  something 
pretty  near  that. 

Q.  You  next  heard  him  make  that  speech  to  his  men  after  the  men  had  come  back 
from  Duck  Lake,  did  you  not  ? — A.   Yes.  '^-^ 

Q.  Where  was  he  at  the  time  1 — A.  He  was  sitting  on  horseback  outside  in  the 
yard. 

Q.  And  where  were  you  1 — A.  Upstairs  in  Mitchell's  house,  looking  out  through  the 
window. 

Q.  You  were  in  the  second  story  of  Mitchell's  house,  were  you  not  .- — A.  I  was 
in  the  upstairs  of  the  house. 

Q,   And  he  was  down  in  the  yard  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  heard  all  that  he  said,  no  doul)t  ?^A.  Well  I  heaid  mo.stly  all  that  he 
said  but  I  did  not  understand  him,  at  least  I  did  not  understand  all  he  .said. 

Q.  (^f  course  the  windows  were  closed  and  he  was  downstairs  1 — A.  Xo,  the  windows 
were  not  closed.  There  was  a  pane  of  glass  partly  knocked  out  of  the  window  and  through' 
this  )iane  I  was  looking.  ;     ' 

Q.  Through  the  pane  you  were  looking  down  at  him  ? — A.  Yes,  through  the  broken 
pane. 

Q.  And  you  heard  what  he  said  out  in  the  yard  1 — A.  Yes,  I  heard  what  he  said. 

Q.  You  heard  him  make  his  speech  there  saying  he  thanked  the  Lord  and  the  Virgin 
Mary  for  his  successes  1 — A.  I  don't  remember  him  thanking  the  Lord,  I  remember  him 
thanking  the  Virgin  Mary. 

Q,  Whom  else  did  he  thank  ? — A.  St.  Jean  Baptiste,  St.  Joseph  and  several  other 
Saints. 

Q.  He  went  through  the  whole  list,  didn't  he  1 — A.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  whole 
list  ? 

Q.  How  many  more  did  he  repeat  I — A.  I  don't  remember  how  many  more  he  said, 
he  mentioned  other  Saints. 

Q.  You  next  were  present  at  the  choosing  of  the  council  in  the  church,  were  you 
not  ? — A.   I  was  jiresent  at  the  council  before  I  was  to  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  That  was  in  the  church  at  Duck  Lake,  was  it  riot  1 — A.  No,  it  was  inthechvirch 
at  Batoclie. 

Q.  Were  there  many  i)eople  there  ? — A.  Yes,  the  church  was  full. 
Q.  Did  Riel  take  any  part  in  the  election  ?  — A.   In  the  election  of  the  council  l 
Q,   \'^s. — A.    I  don't  tliink  he  took  much  part,  except  he  spoke  in  one  man'.s  favour 
whom  somebody  else  rose  olijectiou  against. 

Q.  As  far  as  vou  can  now  recollect,  that  is  all  the  part  he  took  in  the  election  ? — A. 
That  is  all.  ' 


<? 


46 

Q,  What  he  said  of  course  was  in  French  and  you  understood  wliat  lie  said  ? — No,  I 
don't  understand  French. 

Q.  Well  you  understand  it  sutWciently  to  know  what  Riel  said  on  that  occasion,  do 
you  not  ? — A.   I  understand  some  of  it,  I  did  not  understand  every  thins;  he  said. 

Q.  Did  Riel  at  any  time  prevent  Gabriel  Duniont  or  anyboby  else  f loni  killing  pri- 
soners 1 — A.  Well  I  don't  know  who  prevented  (iabriel  Dumont  at  Duck  Lake.  He  did 
not  seem  to  act  as  a  man,  as  though  he  wanted  to  kill  prisoners  very  bad.  He  just 
simply  ordered  them  out  and  then  he  seemed  to  quit  ;there  when  he  had  ordered  them 
out.--. 

Q.  That  was  l)umont  ? — A.  Yes,  he  did  not  seem  to  push  matters  ahead  very  much 
to  try  to  fiet  them  out. 

Q.  Riel  took  no  pait  in  your  arrest,  did  he  ?  Was  he  present  when  you  were 
arrested  ? — A.   Xo.  he  was  not  present  when  I  was  arrested. 

\  Q.    Was  he  piesent  when    you    weie   l)Ut    down    in  the    cellar    at    I!atcM>he,'you  were 

»put  down  with  other  prisiiners  of  course  ? — A.   Yes.     \(i,  he  was  not  present  then. 

Q.  He  was  not  down  in  tlie  cellar  at  tlie  time  you  were  ]iini()ned  and  tied  there, 
either  was  he  .' — A.  No,  but  I  had  sent  men  to  tell  him  we  were  tied.  1  had  asked  the 
guards  to  tell  him  we  were  tied. 

Q.   But  he  was  not  present  at  the  time  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  At  the  time  that  the  shell  tired  by  the  troops  struck  your  house,  he  went  there 
and  askeil  after  your  safety,  did  he  not  .'  You  were  there  with  the  other  prisoners  of 
course  in  the  cellar  { — A.  Yes,  I  was  there  with  the  other  prisoners  in  the  cellar. 

Q.   You  know  the  houJe  was  struck  with  a  shell,  do  you  not  ? — A.   Yes,  I  know  and 

I  ojight  to  know. 

y         '  -  ■ 

Q..  Do  you  know  also  Riel  came  there  after  the  house  was  struck? — A.  I  don't 
know  whetlier  he  came  tliere  after  the  house  was  struck  or  before  the  house  was  struck, 
but  I  am  inclined  to  think  it  was  before  it  was  struck,  and  after  he  asked  if  we  were  safe 
and  alive  and  went  out  of  the  house  and  afterwards  returned  and  s])oke  through  the  floor, 
and  he  said  :  "I  forgot  to  say  a  good  woi-d  to  yoij.  Remember  the  .\lnughty,"  he  said, 
'•  we  have  all  got  religion,"  and  then  he  went  oft". 

t^.   Very  good  .uhiee  ? — A.   Kind  of  cool  advice  coming  through  the  floor  at  that  time. 

Q.  IfSUpjiose  ii  would  have  been  cooler  had  it  gone  through  an  ice  house,  wouldn't 
it  ?— A.   Probably. 

Q.   You  know  that  he  gave  a  prisoner  that   had  been  wounded   at   Duck   Lake  into 
custody  of  the  prisoners  that  were  at  Mitchell's  house,  do  you  not  \  Or  do  you  think  you 
»    can  remeuiber  that  '/  A  man  named  Newett  ? — A.  Newett  was  brought  to  us,  I  don't 
think  Riel  brought  him  there,  I  don't  remember  Riel  Ijringing  liim  there. 

Q.  You  are  (juite  sure  also  that  Riel  did  not  say  anything  to  you  about  him  when 
he  was  brought  there  .'  You  are  quite  sure  now  On  your  oath  that  Mr.  Riel  did  not  tell 
Mr.  Astley  in  your  presence  to  take  good  care  of  that  man  ? — A.  I  can't  swear  that  he 
did  not. 

Q.  You  don't  think  he  did  do  it,  don't  you  ? — A.  I  can't  swear  he  did  nor  yet  I  can't 
swear  that  he  did  not. 

Q.  Y'our  impression^s  that  he  did  not  do  it  ? — A.  I  ain't  got  no  impression  about  it. 
Q.   Tliat  fact  did  not  remain  sufliciently  on  your  memory  to  be  able  to  remember  it 
of  course  ?-T- A.  No,  it  did  not.     I  don't  remendjer  him  telling  nie. 

Q.  Y''ou  don't  remember  anything  about  it  at  all,  but  you  remember  well  about  the 
angels  he  gave  praise  to  after  the  victory  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A.  Yes. 


47 
William  Tompkins,  swornA  Examined  l)v  Mr.  Roliinson.  • 

Q.   \ou  me  a  brother  of  the  last  wrniess  1  think,  are  you  not  ? — A.   A  cousin. 

Q.  You  iiavf  been  in  the  euiployment  of  the  Indian  Department  in  these  Territories, 
have  you  not  1 — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Foi-  Tiow  long  ? — A.  I  have  been  in  their  employment  now  on  and  off  for  the 
last  five  years. 

Q..In  what  capacity? — A.  As  assistant  farmer  and  interpreter  also. 

Q.   You  were  at  fort  Carlton  in  the  month  of  ilarcli  last  I  believe  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  For  how  long  have  you  been  stationed  there  ! — A.  Since  the  l.'ith  of  August,  up 
till  that  time.  * 

Q.   Do  you  recollect  the  1  Nth  of  March  last  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   I>o  you  recollect  leaving  the  Fort  on  that  day  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Witli  whom  did  you  go  ! — A.  ^Ir.  Lash,  the  Indian  Agent. 

Q.  And  for  what  purpose  ? — A.   I  did  not  know  that. 

Q.   Did  he  ask  you  to  go  with  him  ? — A.   Yes,   he  said  I  was  to  go. 

Q.  You  were  ordered  by  him  to  go  then  I — A.  Yes. 

Q.   You  were  under  his  instructions,  were  you  not  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.    He  was  the  Indian  Agent  there? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Just  tell  us  what  haj)pened,  you  went  with  liiui  I  suppose  ! — A.  I  went  with 
him. 

Q.   Where  to  ? — A.   (Jne  Arrow's  reserve  he  started  for. 

Q.   Aiiout  how  far  from  Carlton  \ — A.  i  Twenty  miles. 

Q.   On  horseback  or  drivjng  ? — A.   Driving. 

Q.  Roth  in  the  sleigh  ? — -A.  No,  I  was  separate. 

Q.   Each  had  your  own  sleigh  \ — A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  took  place  then  .' — A.  When  we  came  as  fur  as  Duck  Lake  Mr.  Lash  stopped 
therea  few  minutes,  and  then  he  went  on  to  the  river  and  stopped  at  Walter  iV  Baker'.s, 
and  finally  we  got  to  the  reserve  and  found  the  Farm  Instructor  nut  at  home,  and  fed 
the  horses  there,  and  the  Farm  Instructor  drove  up  and  Mr.  Lash  stopped  a  little  while, 
and  then  we  started  back.  He  wanted  to  bu)'  some  potatoes  or  something  for  the 
Indians,  as  far  as  I  could  understand,  and  we  came  to  this  place,  where  I  wlis  taken 
prisoner  at  Mr.  Kerr's  store. 

Q.    Who  were  you  taken  piisoner  by  ? — A.    Mr.  liiel. 

Q.  And  were  there  others  with  him? — A.  Yes,  there  was  Gabriel  Dumont  and  a  lot 
of  others. 

Q.   About  how  many  others  ? — A.   I  should  judge  between  60  and  100. 

Q.   Were  they  Half-breeds  ? — A.   Yes,  principally.  '    - 

Q.  Were  they  armed  .•^— A.    Yes,  not  them  all,  they  were  not  all  armed  at  the  time. 

Q.  Were  the  majority  of  them  armed,  do  you  think  -  A.  N"i>-  I  don't  tliin'k  they 
■were. 

Q.  And  what  were  those  armed  with  that  were  armed,  as  far  as  you  observed  ? — 
A.  Guns. 

Q.  Well,  who  first  stopped  you  ? — A.  Gabriel. 


48  . 

Q.    What  did  he  say  to  you  1 — A.   He  told  us  to  remain  there  awhile. 

Q.  AVhat  happened  then  t — A.  Mr.  Riel  drove  up  and  said  he  would  detivin  us  a 
few  hours. 

Q.  Well,  what  happened  ? — A.  Well,  we  stopped  there,  remained  there  for  aliout 
ten  minute.s,  I  should  think,  and  tinally  we  were  taken  to  the  church. 

Q.   Under  a  guard  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Did  all  these  men  go  with  you  to  the  church,  or  only  a  .small  guard  ? — A.  They 
all  went  with  us,  as  far  <as  I  could  see. 

Q.  And  what  was  done  then  1 — A,  Well,  we  went  to  the  chunh,  and  of  course  I 
don't  understand  the  French  language  hut  I  understand  the  Cree,  and  as  far  as  I  could 
make  out  from  the  Indians,  they  were  trying  to  elect  a  council  there  and  we  remained 
there  all  that  night. 

Q.  Who  were  engaged  in  trying  to  elect  a  council,  was  Dumont  there'! — A.  GJaliriel 
was  appointed  to  elect  them,  as  far  as  I  could  find  out. 

Q.  Was  Mr.  Riel  there  ?— A.  Yes. 

Q.   And  what  part  did  he  seem  to  be  taking? — A.  Well,  I  could  ,not  say  as  he  was 
'   taking  any  part. 

1  Q.  Then  you  were  put  into  the  church  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Were  you  kept  in  the  church  that  night? — A.  No,  we  were  taken  across  to 
Walter's  store,  and  we  were  kept  there  upstairs  until  the  morning,  and  then  they 
returned  us  hack  to  the  church  again,  and  we  remained  there  that  night, — not  that 
night, — we  stopped  there  that  night,  and  we  were  removed  down  to  Philippe  Garnot's 
restaurant  at  Batoche,  he  was  cooking  there. 

Q.  Yes,  and  what  happened  then  ? — A.   First  there   was  one  of  the  councillors,  he 
took  our  names,  as  a  word  of  honor  to  go  down  theft,  if  we  would  not  try  to  escaj'e,  and 
I  we  put  down  our  names  on  the  word  of  honor,  and  then  they  sent  some  guards  along 
to  Ije  sure. 

Q.  How  many  guards  did  they  send  in  addition  to  the  word  of  honor? — A.  Well, 
there  were  two  with  me.      I  don't  know  how  many  there  were  with  the  rest. 

Q.  How  many  of  you  were  sent  down  ? — A.  Well,  there  was  Mr.  Lash  and  I,  and 
George  Ness  and  McKean  and  Mr.  Tompkins,  my  cousin. 

Q.  Were  the  guards  armed  1 — A.  Yes,  the  guards  that  were  with  me  were  armed. 

Q.  What  happened  then  ? — A.  Well,  we  remained  there  until  we  went  to  Duck 
Lake. 

Q.  And  what  day  did  you  go  to  Duck  Lake  1 — A.  It  was  the  26th. 
Q.  And  who  took  you  there  1 — A.  The  Half-breeds  took  me  there. 
Q.  Did  you  go  with  the  other  prisoners  ? — Yes,  all  in  one  sleigh. 

Q.  And  how  many  Half-breeds  went  with  you  ? — A.  Well,  I  should  judge  there 

was  about  sixty. 

Q.   Any  Indians  ? — A.  Yes,  some  Indians. 

Q.  How  many  Indians  do  you  think  1 — A.  I  should  think  there  would  be  about  ten 
or  twenty. 

Q.   Were  the  Indians  also  armed? — A.  Yes. 

(^.  What  did  they  do  with  you  at  Duck  Lake  when  you  got  there  ? — A.  They  put 
us  upstairs  in  Mitchell's  house. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  happened  next  ? — A.  Well  the  next  thing  tliat  I  heard  w-as  we 
were  ordered  down  to  be  shot  in  the  afternoon.  I  met  Mr.  Astley  and  Mr.  Ross  there. 


;*9 

1^.   The  next  thing  you  heard  you  were  ordered  down  to  be  what  '• — A.   To  l>e  sliot. 

(J.   Ill  tlie  iifteruooii  ;  who  by  ?   -A.  Gabriel  was  the  man  that  [  thouglit  ordered  us. 

Q.   Was  that  l)efore  or  after  tlie  affair  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A.   After  the  affair. 

Q.  Well  tell  us  aiiythinj;  you  can  tliat  took  [dace  liefore  that  ati'air  ?  l>id  you  see 
them  j{oin>{  out  to  Duck  Lake  ? — A.   Yes,  I  saw  them  goinj;  out. 

1^.  Where  did  they  come  from  ? — A.  The  jiriiici[>al  iiait  of  theui  were  ahead  when 
we  ;,'ot  there. 

y.  How  many  do  you  think  were  ahead  of  you  ?  — A.  I  should  judjje  about  three 
liunilred. 

Q.  And  tliere  were  how  many  with  you  '. — A.  Well,  about  00  or  70  altoijetherj 
Indians  and  all.  ._   ■; 

(J.   Alid  of  the  ;W0  how  many  do  you  tliiiik  were  Indian.*? — A.   Al>out  loO.  ! 

•  ij.  Well,  tht'Y  wei'e  ahead  of  you.  Did  you  get  to  Duck  Lake  before  they  left  it, 
for  the  place  where  the  tight  took  place  ■  before  they  went  out  to  where  the  figlit  took 
place  ;  A.  Xo,  they  were  just  going  out  ;  how  I  knew  they  were  going  to  tight,  Monk- 
.man  came  running  by  and  he  said  in  C'ree,  asked  an  Lidian  where  was  his  gun,  or  had  he 
brought  his  '^»\i  with  him,  and  he  ordered  them  to  the  front,  so  I  tliought  by  that  thero 
was  going  to  be  a  fight. 

t^.    Did  you  see  Hid  at  tliat  time  .'    -A.    No.  I 

1^.    Well  then,  did  you  hear  any  firing  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.  How  long  after  they  had  gone  out,  did' you  hear  the  firing  ?  — A.  I  should  Judge 
about  an  lii>ur  or  an  hour  and  a-lialf,  ti>  the1>e.st  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.    Did  you  hear  many  shots  tired  .'  -A.    I  heard  (juite  a  uund>er. 

Q.   You  heard  them  plainly,  1  supj)ose  !   -A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  happened  ne.xt  ,'  -A.  Well  then,  they  all  returned  and  we  were  oitlered 
out  to  be  shol  the  ne.\t.   (iabrieUgot  wounded,  1  heard  them  tiilking  about  it  down  stairs. 

(j).  Well  whii  interfered  to  stop  that,  any  one  that  you  know  of  !  A.  A  Half-breed 
by  the  name  of  .Magnus  Ibirstein,  told  me  that  he  interfered. 

Q.  Well,  you  were  not  tate'ufoiit,  and  what  ha])pened  next? — A.  Well  we  were 
removed  to  t'arlton  next. 

Q.  liefore  that,  did  you  see  ^{iel  .'  Did  you  see  Kiel  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A.  Yes,  he 
came  with  the  jirisoners.  ^ 

t^.   And  what  did  lie  say  to  you  .'  -A.    He  did  not  make  any  remark  at  all  to  me. 

l^.  Did  lie  make  any  renuirk  to  anyone  else  in  your  hesiring  .'  -A.  He  made  a 
remark  to  Astlev  or  Astlev  ma<le  a  remark  to  him;  they  were  talking  about  the  tight,  he 
said  that  the  police  tired  the  first,  and  Mr.  Astley  sai<l  that  probably  the  gun  might  have 
gone  off  accidentally,  and  he  said,  perhaps  so. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  anything  more  about  the  tight  .'^ A.  The  next  day  he  allowed 
ine  to  go  out,  Itoss  and  I,  to  take  the  bodies  off  the  field. 

Q.  liefoie  that  he  told  Mr.  Astley  the  police  tired  first,  and  Mr.  Astley  said  per- 
haps the  gun  went  off  accidentally,  aiul  he  said,  perhaps  so,  was  there  anything  else 
spoken  of  as  regards  firing  ?       A.   He  said  he  gaVe  the  word,  in  the  name  of  (Jod,  to  tire. 

'.    Q.    He  .said  he  gave  the  word  to  whom  ? — A.   To  his  men. 

0-  Did  lie  .say  anything  more  about  his  meli  |or  wliat  any  of  them  had  dnjie  at  the 
tight  'I — A.  No,  nothing  that  I  heard.  -, 

IX[  Nothing  that  you  remember? — A.   No. 


4 


50 


) 


Q.  Well,  (lid  lie  say  iiiiytliiiij^  alioiit  yoiii-selveslf — A.  Hi'sniil  that  proliulily  \\r  wric 
brought  in  tljero  for  our  lives,  to  have  our  lives  shvc.l.  whereliy  it'  we  hail  liecii  iiiitil 
suppose  we  would  have  been  shot,  that  is  the  way  f' iiiiderstDod  it. 

y.  He  said  that  probably  you  were  brought  in  then'  tur  your  li\es'siike,  that  it'  you 
liad  lieen  out  you  might  have  been  shot  (      A.    Yes. 

Q.  Well  how  long  did  you  remain  at  ililliard  Mitchell's  J-  .\.  We  lenuiined  there 
until  the  .Ust.  y 

Q.    And  where  were  you  taken  then  .'     A.   To  I'arlton. 

■   ^  \ 

y.  By  whom  (  A.  Taken  by  Baptiste  Laplanti*.  when  he  was  dri\  ing  the  tiMm. 
there  were  three  guards  in  the  cellar,  as  far  as  I  can  think. 

0.  How  many  other  Half-breeds  were  there  with  you  tln-ii-  '.  A.  1  shmild  jud'e 
about  hfteen  altogether,  12  to  IT). 

\  Any  ImiJans?-  A.  Yes. 

(j.  How  many  !     A.  Two. 

Q.  About  tifteen  Half-breeds  and  two  hulians*      .\.    Yes. 

tj.  What  was  done  with  you  there  .'  -.\.    We  wcic  placed  in  a  house  there,  ujiAtairs. 

Q.  When  you  got  there,  who  did  you  find  in  p(>ssessi(pn  iif  Cavltiin  .'     A.    .Monkman. 

.  With  how  many  n;en  .'     A.    I  should  think  abimt  ('A). 

Q.  Were  they  armerl  /     A.   Y'es. 

.  How  long  did  you  remain  thei'e  ; — A.    We  ivmained  till  the  ilid  .Vpril. 

i}.  What  was  done  with  you  then  /     A.    We  had  to  go  back  to  liatoche.    , 

Q.  Wliat  (li.stance  is  that  t     A.   Tweniy  miles.  \ 

g.  I  iider  a  guaid  ?     A.  Yes.  Ml 

.  How  many  were  in  the  guard  '!      A.    We  weiit  w  ith  all  the  i-rowd.  • 

.  The  whole  that  were  at  Cailton  .'      .\.   Yes.  '\ 

t^.  Did  they  burn  befoie  leaving.'  A.  It  was  in  lire  befnre  I  left.  I  could  sec  the 
flames  when  I  had  left 

Q.  Then  the  whole  force  went  over  with  you  to  Batoche,  almut   H)U  .'     A!    Yes. 

Q.  They  were  armed  as  J  understand  /      A.   Y'es. 

(^.  Then  when   you  got  to  Batoche  what  wiis  done  with  you  .'      .\.    Wi-  weie    put   in 

Baptiste  Boyer's  house. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  kept  there  ?     A.    Kept  there  till  the  battle  of  Ki.sli  Creek. 

(^.  That  would  have  been  on  the  24th  Ajirir.'      A.   On  the  L'4th  .Vpril. 

Q.  Under  guard?     A.   Y'e.s. 

Q.  And  what  happened  on  the  24th  April  '  .\.  Well,  before  we  were  takeu  to  the 
cellar,  I  saw  a  man  get  up  there  and  wave  to  the  other  party  that  were  across  the  river 
to  come  on  this  side  and  they  staii^ed,  and  we  were  taken  down  to  the  cellar  and  we 
did  not  hear  anything  more. 

y.  Wii()  took  you  into  the  cellar,  who  was  in  connnand  of  the  guard  if  there  was  one! 
—  A.   I  could  nut  say  who  was  in  connnand. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  kept  in  the  cellar  ?— A.  iWe  were  kept  in  till  the  battle  of 
Fish  Creek  was  over  and  then  we  weie  taken  out. 

Q.   That  would  only  have  been  a  day  or  twfi,  1  sup))Ose  at  that  time  /     A..  Y'es. 


51 

ij.  Well,  liow  loiij;  wcif  Vdu  li't't  imt  of  tlic  it'llui-  iit'ter  tliat  .'  A.  Well,  to  tlu-  l>fst 
of  my  kiiowli'di^f,  I  tliiiik  we  were  put  down  t-itlier  tlnit  day  or  tlic  next,  I  iuii  not  sure 
wliicli. 

(■i*.  Now  wliilc  vou  were  iu  liiiptistc  lioyci's  Iioum'  diil  you  see  Mr.  Uii-1  .it  nil  .'  - 
A.    YfK,  1  saw  )iiiii  iiroiiiid. 

Q.    Did  he  t'Vci-  siH'idv  to  you  .'      A.    No,  iievo-  liad    any  ron\  crsatiou  u  itli    ini-  at  all 
thttt  I  know  of.  ' 

Q.  I)i<l  III'  i-MT  iia\f  aiiv  i-ouv  crsation  uitli  otliiT  ihtmhi^  iu  \oiir  iHfiiMiiv .' — 
A.    Yes. 

Q.    With  wlioui  .'       .\.    Jli'  used  to  toiiMTx-  uilli   .Mr.   .\^tli-y. 

y.    What    did   hf  .say  to   .Mr.  .Vstlcy  in  youi    |>nsrn(i- '     A.    W.li,  .Mr.  .^stlt-y  told 


«.,•.    Ni'vcr  udn<l  what  .Mr.  .V>lli'y  told  you,  what  diil  you  hear  liiiu  >>ay  to  .Mr.  .\sllev  .' 
.\.    Wfll,   [  heard    iiiui  say  he  would   f\<  liani;i'    us   tor   the    Hon.   Luwiimhi.-  Clark,  an<l 
Mr.  Thomas  .McKay  or  ('oloncl  Sproat. 

i),  What  did  .Ml-.  .Vsthy  say  to  that  .'  .\.  Wrll.  I  dout  know  esactly  «  hat  hi-  said 
to  that. 

(},    Y(ai  (Unit  rfiiiriiilii'i-  what  the  aiisucr  was.'      .\.    No. 

i).    Thfii  <luriiii;  all  this  tiuu-  were  you  in  the  ru-stoijy  of  an  arincd  ^uanl  .'      .V.    \'es, 

C^.  Who  appcari'd  to  hi-  in  i-omuiaud  of  tin-  pi-oylc  tlu'n-.  tin-  ariin-d  men  ',  —A.  Hicl, 
as  far  as  I  i-oulil  .si-c. 

(.,1.    hid  you  ever  st-t-  him   ariind  .'-   .V.    Y'l-s. 

(.).    What   with  .'      A.    Wiiu-hi-stcr  Kill.-. 

(i.  You  wi-rt-  left  out  of  tlif  i-filar  for  a  short  time,  and  when  were  you  put  haik 
there'/  .v.  I^hink  we  were  moved  Kai-k,  liut  we  came  out,  I  think  \\f  were  mo\ed  hack 
either  that  <lay  or  the  ne.\t. 

t^.    You  came  out  aliout  the^lay  of  the  hatlie  of  Fish  Creek,  "JIth  .'      .\.    ^'es. 

C^.   You  m<iM-d,  were  moved  hack  you  mean,  on  the  L'.'ith  and  l^titli  .'      .V.    Ye-;. 

(J.  .Mow  lonn  did  yiai  remain  tliei-e  .' '  .V.  The  L'lt-h  was  the  l.atth-  of  Fish  Creek, 
and  we  were  out  on  tin-  --"ith  1  think,  and  than  we  were  put  hack  a','ain  riirht  that  ne.vt 
day. 

y.  Then  you  were  put  hack  on  the  L'tith,  and  Imw  loiii;  did  you  i-(-niain  then-  then  .' 
• — A.    Hetnained  there  till   1   was  released. 

g.   That  would  he  tlie  l:.'th  of  .May  .'     A.   Yes. 

g.      Who  was  there  with  you  .'      .\.    1  n  the  i-ellar. 

Q.  Yes.'  A.  There  was  .Mi-.  .Vslley,  .Mr.  Koss,  Mr.  Lash,  Mr.  .M.-Keun,  Mv.  Wood- 
cock and  myself. 

Q.  AVas  there  any  lif<ht   in  this  cellar  or  what   sort  of  a  place  was  it  '      .V.    No,  no 

i  ,     '   ■ 


light. 


Q.    No  lifjht  at  all  ;     .\.   No. 

Q.   How  did  you  get  into  it  ?     A.  Through  a  trap  (k)or 

y.   And  that  was  closed  I  suppose  .'  -A.  Ye.s. 

Q.   Were  you  'it  liberty  or  oontiued,  or  tied  in  any  way  ! — A.    We  were  tied  foi-  the 
last  three  nights. 

y.    Hands  or  hands  and  feet  or  how  ?  -  A.   I  was  tied  hands  and  feet,  the  otliers  were 
only  tied  hands. 


/ 


o2 

<^  Who  wiis  it  orderecl  you  to  l>e  tied  ?  A.  Well  Delorine  was  the  man  that  tied 
me. 

<}.   Well  how  was  it  done,  was  he  aimed  ?- A.   Yes,  he  was  armed. 

(^.  Did  lie  say  anything  when  he  did  it?  -A.  He  .said  if  he  found  us  uiiloo.sed  he 
■wbuld  shoot  us. 

(}.   Do  you  l-eineniher  seeing  Riel  on  tlie  iL'th,  tlie  day  you  were  rescued  ?     A.   Yes. 

<^.    Where  did  you  see  him  ?     A.   He  came  to  the  trap  door  and  took  Mr.  Astley  out. 

<i.  What  did  lie  say  to  him? — A.  He  said  to  go  and  tell  (ieneral  Middleton,  as  far 
as  1  can  understand,  if  he  did  not  stop  shejling  the  liouses  he  would  nias.sacre  the 
prisoners.  _    • 

y.    Did  Astley  go  .' —A.    Yes. 

<.^.    Were  you  there  when  A.stley  returned,  or  did  you  see  him  ?~   A.   No. 

<^.   Then  have  you  told  me  all  that  you  know  about  the  mattei'?     A.  Yes. 

i^.  Had  you  known  Riel  before  this? — A.  I  had  seen  him,  I  ne\  ei-  was  aciguainted 
with  )iim. 

(j.  How  often  liad  you  seen  liim  before  this?  A.  1  had  seen  him  just  once  to  nijr 
knowledge. 

y.   And  when  would   that  havelieen.'      .\.  He  was  holding  a  nie<'ting  at  a  settlement. 
b.  Wlien  !     A.  1  forget  the  date. 

Q.    How  long  before  this  .'    -.\.    I  should  Judge  aliout  six  months. 

Exiunineil  liy  Mr.  (iniiENsiiiEi.i>s. 

(^.   Were  you  present  at  the  meeting  ?      A.   Yes.  j 

y.    Did  you  hear  any  of  tlie  speeches  at  the  meeting  ?-   A.    Yes. 

<.^.    What  was  the  meeting  held  for  (     -.\.  It  was  grievances  as  far  as  1  could  tind  out. 

t^.  (;ri(«\ances  that  the  Half-breeds  contended  they  had  against  th^e  (iovernment  ?— 
A.   As  fiir  as  I  could  unilerstaiid  that  was  it,  I  was  not  thfre  long. 

t^.  I  think  you  stated  in  your  examination  in  chief  that  you  did  not  understand 
French,  Init  you  did  unrlerstand  Cree  .'     .\.   Yes. 

<4.  Aiid  will  you  state  what  Mr.  Riel  said,  did  he  speak  in  French  or  Kngli.sh  then? 
— .\.    When  Mr.  Riel  was  speaking  I 

^i.  Yes/    -A.   Jfe  was  talking  French. 

Q.  Somebody  interjireted  it  for  you  '! — A.  I  asked  an  interpreter  that  had  it  inter 
preted  to  him.    He  told   me  in  Indian. 

Q.  iSo  that  what  you  know  then  is  the  statement  that  you  have  prov.ed  that  Mr. 
Riel  has  made  was  interpreted  to  you  by  an  Indian? — A.  An  Indian  that  understood 
French. 

Q.  Hut'vou  did  not  know  what  he  .said  himself  personally  ? — A.  No,  ]  did  not  say 
I  did.  .' 


wei*  presf 
ucli  part,  ve 


t^.  I  think  you  said  also  that  at  the  meeting  of  the  council  where  you  wei*  present 
when  they  were  electing  the  council,  that  Riel  did  not  seem  to  be  taking  much  part,  very 
iniich  of  ally  part  in  it  ?  —A.   Y'^es.  I 

Q.   Now  you  understood,  did  you  not,  the  Half-breeds  during  yourarre.st  were  really 
standing  between  you  and  the  Indians,  that  is  you  looked  to  them  for  protection  t     Yes, 
*    I  did. 


■  5:? 

By  Mr.  llouixsox. 

Q.  Tln's<<  couversatioiis  with  Astley  were  they  in  Englisli,  or  how  did  Kiel  address 
him?  -  A.   In  Euglisli. 

Q.  So  tliat  you  understood  them  ?     A^  Yes. 

JoilN_iL_LAau,  sworn,  exaiiiiiied  l>y  ilr.  Osier. 

Q.  1  believe  you  are  Indian  Agent  for  the  Dominion  (iovei-nniciit  at  Fort  Ciirlton  ? 
—  A  Carlton  district.  [• 

'  .  ■ 

Q.   You  had  not  been  theie  very    lung   itt   the  time  ef  the  occurrences  in -(luestion  ? 

— A.    No,  I  went  there  in  January. 

Q.  On  the  iNth  Marcli  I  believe  yon  were  with  the  last  witness  ? — A.  He  svas  my 
interpreter. 

Q.    .\nd  you  were  taken  prisonei-  ? — .\.    Yes,  1   was  taken  llri.^oner  at  liatoche. 

().  Relate  how  you  were  taken  jirisoner  .^ —  A.  1  was  returning  tVcni  ( >ne  Arrow 
reserve,  and  near  Uatodie  I  came  down  ujion'  a  crowd  of  armed  men.  (iabriel  l)umont 
came  forward  and  said  Mr.  iJiel  wanted  to  see  nie.  While  he  was  t.ilking  Hiel  <lro\ed<iwu 
at  a  furious  rate,  he  came  fiuwai'd  and  adressed  me  as  Mr.  Agent,  he  says  :  I  v.  ill  have  to 
detain  you.  I  asked  on  what  gi-ound  he  was  ijoing  to  detain  me  ?  And  he  said  the  reltellioii 
liad  connnenced  and.  they  inteiuled  fighting  until  the  whole  of  the  Saskatcliewau  Valley 
was  in  their  hands. 

(,).    That   is  what  l\iel  tolil  you  liiuiself  '! — .V.    Yes. 

Q.  What  else  passed  between  you  'I  —  .V.  Tlien  he  tol<l  me  to  give  llji  niy  anus  if  I 
liad  any,  to  hanil  them  over  to  Dumont.  ^ 

Q.    Then  what   was  done  ? — \.    From  that   we  were  taken  to  the  church. 

(/  Who  seemed  to  be  in  authority  wlieu  Riel  came  up  ? — A.  He  .seeiuetl  to  commaiul 
the  wliole  thing,  it  was  by  his  orders  that  tlie  mules  1  was  driving  were  unhitched,  and 
lie  took  possession  iit'  them  and  the  traj>. 

Q.    it  was  he  told  you  the  intention  of  the  jiarty  '! — A.   Yes. 

Q.  .\bout  how  many  men  were  there  in  arms  ?  ^  .V.  I  should  say  thert!  were  about 
40  or  SO  in  the  mob. 

Q.  Mow  were  thev  armed  ?  —  A.  With  guns,  chietly  giins  and  a  variety  nf  arms, 
rifles. 

t,).    l)o  yi'U  mean  they  were  all  tire  arms  ? — A.    Yes,  all  lire  arms. 

C^.  Then  where  were  you  put  '! — A.  We  were  taken  down  to  the  church'  and 
renuiined  there  till  about  )^  o'clock. 

Q.  The  church  at  what  place  ? — .V.  Itatoche.  Then  we  were  sent  to  the  south  sMe 
of  the  river,  to  Walter  and  Baker's  store. 

(,).    .\bout  wluit  time  on  the  18th  ?  —  A.    Between  8  and  d  in  the  e\ening. 

Q.  What  was  going  on  at  Walter  and  Baker's  store? — A.  The  store  wa.s  being 
pillaged  by  the  armed  mob,  we  were  put  upstairs. 

Q.    I)id  you  .see  Riel  there  that  evening  ? — A.    No. 

Q.  You  were  put  upstairs  and  whom  did  you  find  there  ? — A.  1  found  Walter  and 
his  clerk  Mr.  Hannipin,  they  were  prisoners. 

Q.   Any  one  else  in  the  hou.st-  ?  — A.   Not  at  that  time. 

(.,).  On  the  I'Jth  what  took  place? — A.  That,  evening  tlfcre  was  another  pri.soiier 
brought  in,  Louis  Marion.  '  . 


g.   On  till-  IHtli  wliiii 
jn'isoiu'fs  l>roujilit  in. 

Q.    Wlio  w.  1-..  they  ? 

Q.   The  liK'ii  wlio  li!i 


54 

tiMik   pliu-c  '! — A.    Kiulv  ill  tlic  iiioiiiiuj;  then-  were  two  niore 


A.   Toiiipkius  and  .Mt-Keai 

l)een  repairinj;  tlie  telegraj)!!    line  ?  —  A.    Yes,  tliey  stated   so, 

(^.   Wliat  liapjwned  f  jrtlier  on  the  lUtli? — A.   We  were  tlien  icnio\('d  to  tlie  church 
and  ke]it  tliere  all  day. 

<^.    \\  liJit    liapjK'ned 
•joing  on.  liut  it  was  sj)ok 

Q.    Whom    did   vou  M'e   at    the   church,  did    voil   see  the  prisoner  at   tlie  diurch  ? 
A.    Yes. 

i}.    Wiiat  was  he  doi 

i).    Aiiythinj;  else? 

'  i}.    Who  was  in  ehai 


It  the  (hiiivh  ;     A.      There   was    a   >,'reat    deal    of  excitement 
>ii  in  French  chiefly,  and  I  did  not  understand  it. 


'i  '.      A.    Addressinj^  the  crowd. 
-\.   Theri'  was  nothinj;  that  1  know  of  particularly. 
i;e  that  ilay  so  far  as  you  .saw  ? — A.   Tlie  prisoner. 


iiu  stav    there 


Yes. 


iilMtUT  J^  oclock.  and  we  I 
came  aloiii;  and  I  t^poke  t 
and  we  were  removeil  to 

<,>.     How    l.m;;-    ilirl    y 
•Jtith. 

U.   Of  .Manli  .'.—A. 

1^.    l)urin<.'  that  tinii 

(J.  i  'an  you  jrive  u 
A.  On  one  occasion  he.sai 
inent.  the  Hudson  l>ay  ( 
<'very  o|ipoitunity  to  sur 
another  occasion  he  told 
tiiat  lie  had  .sent  an  aiiiiel  liodv  to  caijtuii'  him 


<!.  Then  where  did  'on  .<;o  from  tJie  churi'h  and  when  ?  -A.  They  ki^pt  un  there  till 
ad  no  lilankets  or  aiiythiny;,  an<l  a  man  by  the  name  of  Monkniaii 
>  him  and  he  .said  he  would  see  Kiel  and  see  what  could  he  done, 
'hilip  <  iainot  s  lum.,!-.  » 

A.    We  remained  there  till  tlie  iiioriiin<{  of  tliR 


(^.    Anythiii;,'  el.se  '. 


had  you  any  convi-rsation  with  the  prisoner  ? — A.   Several. 

anythiinr   of  importance  he  said  to  you  as  to  his  intentions  ? — 

\  that  he  had  three  enemies,  and  enumerated  thelir  as  tlie(  Joverii- 

o..  and  the  jiolioe.   he  also  stated  to  nie  he  would  j;ive  the  police 

nder  and  if  they  did  not   do  so  there  wouhl  he  Moodshed  ;  on 

me  he  had  heard    the   l.,i(^ut.  (lovernor    was   on  his  wav  up  and 

\.    I   cannot  remenilier   what   his  ordinary  conversation   was,      I 

...       __1.1     1-'  ..      1 , J.       .     .       i.     ....      I      it ..A  ^ 


\  otticial.  that  he  woulil  ho 
(/    Auythini;-    el>< 


talked  alxiut  as  soon  as  t 


on  one  occasion  he  said  lie  wouhl  not  release  me  on  anv  account  as  I  was  a  ( lovernmeiit 


il  me  as  .i  hostaye. 


inytliin^'    i-ersona!    to  himself   as   to   his   nioti\<-s.'  —  A.    Yes    he 
hey   had  the  c(aiirtry    it  would    he  divided    u|i  and    .so   forth,  he 

wouhl  ,:,'ive,  he  was  ;toin.ii  to  '/we  a  .se\entli  to   the    Indians,  a  seventh  to  the   Half  luced.s 

and  I  do'nt  know  what  \  as  to  lieconie  of  the  halaiice. 


(^.    It  was  (inly  t  wo 
was  all  lit  stated  to  me. 

i.j.   \Va-  anythini;  si 


sevenths    he    was  .uoinji  to   '/ivf    away    ajipareiitly  '.  —  .\.   Tliat 
id  as  to  his  intention-,   or  movements  .'  -A.    No.  not  that   I  am 


aware  of  :  on    one    occas  ifin    he    wanted    me   to   join   the   nioveiiient.    he   said    lie   would 
j»ilarantee  me  a  )iosition 

(,l,    What  did  he  sa\ 
that  they  were  to  form. 

</    j>id  he  say  aiiyt 

Q.    I  •id  he  say  what 
particular  conversation  i 

Q.   Wa.s  there  anytl 


n  the  service  if  I  fell  in  with  him 

.' — A.    lie  said  he  would  iii\  f  me  a  position  in   the  (ioxernment 

liiiif  ahout^the  Tndian.s  .'      A.  Xotliinjf  out  of  tliejway. 

position  they  were  takiii;;  '!     A.    Xo,  I    do   noi    remenilier   any 
hout  the  Indians. 


in,i{  said  as  to  the  lenfjth  of  time  he  had,  lieen  considering  these 
matters  .'  .A.  Yes,  lie  told  iiie  he  had  lieeii  waitin;^  I  •">  years  and  at  hust  his  opportunity 
had  come. 


\ 


',K   Then  where  were  you  taken  on  the  '2(ith  ?   -A.   To  Duck  Luke. 

Q.  And  where  were  you  imt  there  ?— A.  We  were  put  above  .Mr.  Mitchell's  store, 
rtbove  his  house  I  siiould  siiy. 

Q.   That  is  witli  the  otlier  jirisoueis  ?      A.    Yes. 

(V.  l>iti  you  see  Kiel  there  iit  all  liefore  t1ie  fi-jht  ?  -A.  No,  the  main  hody  had  <;one 
to  the  t'i.y;ht  when  we  arrived  tliere. 

•  ^>.    Did  you  see  liiui  after  tlie  fightJ  —  A.    I  saw  liini  returnini;  with  the  nioli. 

<^.  Who  was  he  retuniinj,'  with?  A.  If  my  memory  serves  me  Tiijht,  lie  was  ou 
lutrsehaek. 

<^).    How   many  men  alx.ut  him  .'      A.    1  should  say  hetween  300  or  400. 

<i>.  How  wfre  they  armed,  if  irmed  .'  .\.  They  were  partly  aimed  with  jjuns,  riHes 
and  so  forth. 

(j>.  Wliiii  iliil  ymi  hear  Kiel  alter  that  .say  anythinj;  .'  A.  He  eaiue  up  w  ith  a 
Avounded  priMiner,  the  wounded  volunteer,  and  In' "said  ''he  will  l«e  hetter  in  your  hands 
aS  he  is  one  of  yourselxes,"  or  words  to  that  ett'eet. 

<^>.   Then  what  eonversation   took   |ihice,  in   which  the  pri.soner  took   part  .'      A.   t)ii- 
another  ociasion  he  <ame  up  and  was  anxious   to  tind  out  if   Mr.  Lawrence  Clark  was  at 
tlu"  I 'uck  Lake  tiirht.  I  don  t  know  as  there  was  anything  else  particularly  said  hy  him. 

t.^.  \\'as  there  anythini;  said  liv  him  as  to  which  tired  first  .'  A.  Yes,  he  claimed  the 
police  tired  first  and  then  he  told  his  men  to  tire,  that  is  what  he  claimed. 

().    Did  you  hear  him  make  that  claim  that  he  told  his  men  to  tin-  .'      .\.   Yes.  I  did. 

*).    \\';i>  that  all  you  heard  him  say  .'      A.   That  was  all  I  renu'ndier  at  pre?.ent. 

t,i.  Did  you  renuiin  tliere  any  leiiLrth  of  time  at  Duck  Lake.'  A.  We  remained  there 
(ill  the  mornin>;  of  the  ;llst. 

t^l.  What  tiHik  plaie  in  tin'  intiival  .'  .V.  ( )ne  of  tht;  |iiisoners,  SandcrMin.  In-  -.i-nt 
him  to  ( 'arlton. 

(^>.    Who  sent  him  .'      .\.   The  primmer. 

(jl.  Kor  what  pnr)iose  ?  .\.  With  a  inessa;;e  to  Major  Crozier,  to  m-ikI  for  x\\f  dead 
,111(1  that  he  would  not  molest  any  Jiarties  comiiii;  for  them. 

(,t.    Do  vou  remiMnlier  the  day  that  was.'     .\.   A  Friday. 

»,».    The  Friday  after  the   iL'ht  .'      .\.    Yes. 

ij.    J>id  Sanderson  return  .'      A.   Yes  he  returned  on  Sunday. 

i).  Do  vol!  know  personalh  of  the  dead  Keint,'  taken  away  hy  Sander-<on  .'  .\.  I  did 
not. 

(j>.  Then  was  anythinj,'  said  liy  Kiel  at  any  time  as  to  who  were  svith  him  in  the 
nio\emeiit  .'     .\.    .No.  he  never  mentioned  any  names. 

i).  N'ot  names,  lait  what  peo]>le  .'  .\.  Yes  he  told  me  the  Indians  were  all  «ith  hiia, 
.md  the  Half  Kreed.s,  Ixith   French,  Knj^lish  and  Scotch. 

i).    Were  with  him  !     .\.   Were  with  him  in  the  movement. 

().   Thtoi  y<ai  were  taken  on  the  .'Ust  where.'  -A.  Taken  to  (.'arlton.  ^ 

»^).    All  of  you  .'     A.    Yes.  ,  ,^ 

t^.  What  was  done  with  you  there  .'  A.  We  were  kept  there  till  the  morninj;  of  the 
;ird  a])ril,  and  then   we  were  carted  or  walked  the  liest  part  of  the  way  to  liatoche. 

Q.  AVhere  were  you  put  in  Batoche.'  -A.  In  the  Ipottom  of  a  store  on  arriving,  and 
ilie  next  dav  we  were  iuo\ed  ahove  the  store.  V 


4 


0(j 


Q.  You  were  kept  kbovt-  tlic  ston'  until  wlicri  ?  A.  We  were  kept  al)Ovc  the  stiin- 
uiitil  sonic  exciti'Uifiit  spraii<;  up  there  iiiid  we  were  put  down  the  cellar  a  day  or  two  and 
■we  weiv  taken  out  and  jiut  hack  aj^ain  and  we  remained  there  then  till  Thursday  the 
H.'Jrd,  and  we  4  ere  taken  out  of  the  cellar  after,  the  Fish  (.'reek  ti-jht  was  over. 

Q.    How  weiv>  you  treated  in  the  cellar  ? — A.    Our  lian<ls  were  tied  at  iii^^ht. 

y.  Had  you  any  communication  with  Kiel  ilurinu  your  stay  at  ISatoche,  any  talk 
with  him  ! — A.    I  sj)oke[to  him  several  times  ahout  jjettinj,' released. 

Q.    What  did  he  say  to  that  ,'  —A.    He  refused  it  every  time. 

C^.  (Jive  any  reason  ( — A.  He  said  he  niij^ht  relea.se  the  other  prisom-rs,  hut  I  was 
a*(!overinnent  otticial  an^l  he  w<juld  not  release  me. 

I  tj.    Did  you  ever  see  Riel  armeil  .'      .\.    I  diil. 

i.}.    With  what  .'      A.    It  was  a  liHe  of  some  kind.      , 

(^.    When  .' — A.    Prjor  to  tlie  Fish  Creek  ti^dit,  1  cannot  j,'ive  yoii  the  date. 

(.}.  Did  Kiel  say  anythiiii;  alxiut  the  Kisli  ( 'reck  liitht  '.  A.  Yi-s,  lie  claimcil  a  \  ictiirv 
there. 

Q.  Ill  talkiiifj  to  you  /  .V.  Not  to  me  personally  no.  I  heard  of  him  clainiini,' the 
vietory,  and  that  is  all. 

().    Do  you  rememl>4r  auylliinj;  taking,' place  on  the  day  you  were  releaseil  !      .\.    Ves,  , 
Kiel  canie  to  the  trap  diKir,  it  was  loaded  with  stones,  he  called  Mr.  Astley,  and   he  savs 
come  ijuick  <;o  and  .see  .Midrlleton,  and  he  turned  hack  and  says  :  "  if  our  families  are  hurt 
in  any  wiiy,  I  will  massiuie  the  jirisoners,"  addressin<r  us  all  who    were  left  in  the  cellar, 
six  of  us. 

ij.  What  occurri'd  ,  after  that  .'  A.  Shoitiy  after  that  wi'  weie  leleascd  l)V  (In,- 
grrival  of  the  trooj)s.  >, 

Mii.  KlTZP.VTKlcK.       We  do  not  wish  to  ciu.ss  examine  the  witness. 


(iEoHiiK  Nkss,  swoi^n  examined  hy  Mr.  Hurliidj^e. 

(.i.  You  live  near  liat  xlie,  Mr.  Ness  .' — A.   Yes. 

(J.  On  which  si<le  of  the  river  .' — A.    On  the  East  side  of  the  ri\er. 

if.  How  far  from  Hatoche  .'  —  A.    .\liout  two  miles. 

Q.  What  is  your  oclcupation  ? — A.   A  farmer. 

Q.  -Are  you  a  Justice  of  the  Peace  as  well  .'-    A.    Yes. 

(j.  Y<iu  know  the  prisoner  .'  —A.    Yes. 

^l.    When  did  you  tiast  see  him  .'      A.    SomeH  here   in    the   month  of  July,  alioiit  that 
time. 

i-l  July  i^^^<^  .'— A.   Ye.s,    \HHi.  -^ 

if.    Wliere  did  you  .iee  him  then  (--A.    I    cannot   say  exactly  the  ,tirst   place    I    saw 
llini,  hut  I  saw  him  arouind  the  settlement. 

Q.  In  the  parish  of  St.  Autoine  .'  -  A.   Yes.  , 

Q.  Was  he  living  there  at  that  time  ; — A.   Yes,  .somewhere  there.' 

t^.  Were  his  wife  unrj  children  living  there  to  'I — A.   Yes. 

i}.  Do  you  know  if  life  had  continued  to  live  in  the  country  since  tlien  ?     A.    Yes. 

(^.  You  know  of  his  holding  meetings  ?  — A.   Yes,  1  helieve  he  was  holding  meetings. 


.57 

Q.   Did  you  iitteiid  any  of  those  iiieptings  ?     A.    I  attfiuled  one  of  them. 

Q.  One  of  the  first  nieetinfjs  ? — A.  No,  tliis  was  on  the  24tli  Fel>ruary. 

Q.    Where  was  it  lield  f-  A.    In  tlie  cliiirch  of  St.  Antoine.  — ' 

(j.  Did  anytliin}^  of  importance  take  jthiee  at  tliat  meeting,  and  if  m)  tell  us  .'-  .\.  I 
did  not  continue  all  the  way  through  tlie  meeting,  1  left  when  it  was  aliout  half  way 
through. 

y.  And  yciu  say  it  was  cundiuted  |iiiuci]ially  in  French  .'  A.  Yes,  it  was  conducted 
in   French. 

ij.    Vmi  understand  French  .'      .\.Yes,  1  knew  what  tlii'V  were  saying. 

(.,>.  Was  that  meeting:;  attended  liy  |iers(ins  who  afterwards  remained  loyal  .'  A.  Yes, 
Beveral  and  also  liy  jM'rsons  who  were  in  the  reliellion.  ». 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  j>art  in  tlie  meeting  yourself  '.  A.  No,  1  was  just  listening,  J 
lieai-d  there  was  to  lie  a  meeting,  an<l  I  Just  went  out  of  curiosity. 

Q.    Mali  you  any  reason  for  not   taking   part  .'      .\.    I  ne\er  <lid  take  any  active  part. 

Q.    Had  you  any  conversation  with  Kiel  after  he  came  into  the  country  '.      .\.  Yes,  i     ' 
talked  to  him  several  times. 

y.    in  «hat   month  of  ',S4  w<piild  that  I.e.'      A.    It  might  ha\e<tie>n    tin-   cml   of  .fuly       < 
or  August.  I 

y.    Wliat  were  you  speaking   aliout.'      A.    He    was   talking  of   trying  to.  assist    the     i 
IM>0|>h-  ill  their  grievances,  to  have  tlieir  grievances  riirlited. 

().  Speaking  of  getting  uji  an  agitation  .'      .\.    Yes,  an  agitation  or  a  Kill  ot'  rights. 

().  I)id  he  at  that  time  make  aiiv  sii,'gestions  of  using  force  .'     A.  No. 

i).  Did  you  see  him  fie(pieiitly  from  that  time  foiHard  .'      A.    Y«'.s. 

<^.  You  li\e  ill  the  same  neiglihourhiUHl  .'      A.    Yes,  I  lia\eseeu  him  there  very  often. 

i).  He  attended  church  regularly  .'      A.    Yes. 

4.  Itid  you  see  anything  or  hear  anything  to  lead  you  to  sup|>ose  tliey  wnuld  take 
up  arms  .'     A.    No,  nothing,  till  the  17th  March. 

*).    Now  tell  us  what  took  jilace  then  .'      A.    As  I  was  proceeding  home  in  a  cutter  1 
overtook  one  of  my  neighhours  on  the  road,  he  was  on  foot,  and  as  in  the  custom  of  that     — 
part   of   the   country  I  took  him  into  my  cutter  as  far  a.S'  my  place  ;   he  said  :~"  I  lieleive 
(iiiliriel  is  e.vciting  the  Indians  on  <  )ne  Aiiow  reserve."  1  went  home,  I  tliouglit  jirolmldy 
it  might  lie  true,  and  I  took  and  fed  my  horse  and  started  for  Carlton. 

Q.  This  was  aliout  three  in  the  afternoon  .'  A.  Aliout  three,  it  was  getting  towanls 
sunset.  1  went  to('arlton  and  informed  Major  C'rozier  of  what  I  had  heard,  1  came  there 
that  night  it  was  late,  I  suppose  it  was  aliout  twenty  milen  to  drive  there.  I  asked  per- 
mission to  camp^Vom  the  Major,  and  the  next  morning  1  .sa«  him,  and  he  told  me  if  I 
heard  anything  more  to  try  and  let  him  know  as  soon  as  possilile.  When  I  got  hack  to 
Duck  Lake,  Mr.  Kerr  told  me:  '"They  are  in  arms  already  at  the  river,  and  they  are  going 
to  take  Ciirlton  to-night."  I  thought  it  was  my  duty  to  .senfl  back  to  the  Major  and  inform 
him  what  was  goiuj>H>n.  i  . 

Cjt.   You  did  so  !     A.    I  did  so,   I  sent  a  letter  liy  a  sptiial  messenger. 

y.   All  tliis  time  your  own  family. was  aliout  two  milej^  from  Batoche  .'      A.   Yes. 

Q.  After  sending  the  message,  what  did  you  do  .'-  A.  I  started  for  home  to  my 
family,  as  1  was  aii.xious  aliout  them. 

Q.   What  took  place  on  your   way    lioiiie  /      A.   On  my  way  home,  on  the  north  side 


/ 


or  west  sidi-  of  the  rivci-,  iit  \Viiiter"s  store,  I  lieiird   tliere  ;i";iiiii  that  si  iiiiiss  iiieetiiij;  was 
to  be  lielfl  that  evening. 

Q.  Tliere  was  sioiiietfliiiiji  really  .-.tirriiii,'  then  ? — A.  Yes,  there  was  snniethiiiji  real 
in  the  matter.      I  deteitiniued  to  '^n  on. 

t^.  Did  you  do. so?-- A.  Yes.  As  I  crossed  the  river,  I  met  anothei:  man,  he  was  under 
arms  already.  He  said  ;  "they  have  taken  u|i  aims  ulieady."  I  said  it  was  veiv  foolish. 
Take  the  advice  of  a  fri^-nd,  .says  I;  and  leave  that  thinj,'  alone.  So  I  continued  on  my  way, 
and  when  I  ;;ot  oppositje  Kerr  Bros.'s  store,  1  saw  a  liii;  irowd  tlieri\ 

t^.   I.s  Kerr  HrOs.V  store  on  the  Kast  or  West  side  .' — .\.   On  tlie  Kast  side. 

Q.  Or  on  the  Souflh  side,  as  some  say  .' — A.  Yes.  As  1  ,:,'ot  close  to  them  I  saw 
them  coming  on  foot  t^  the  mad.  The  store  is  perhaps  70  or  f<()  feet  from  the  roa<l. 
(iabriel  Itumont  was  iii  front.  He  said  ;  ••  IJonjour."  I  took  his  hand,  and  I  said  ;  "  ( ialiriel 
wliat  is  it  you  wish  .'  It  is  not  for  nothinj;  you  stop  me  in  this  manner.'  Me  said,  •■  where 
have  you  lieen  to"?  I  jiaid  :  ••!  have  lieen  to  l>m'k  Lake.  And  he  said  :  You  ha\e  been 
doing  something,  you  have  lieen  further  than  Duck  Lake."  I  sai<l  :  ••(laliriel,  it  is  none 
ot  your  business  w  here;  I  ha\  e  been.  Well,  he  says,  .1  will  tiike  yiai  prisonei'.  I  says  : 
"  You  can  do  wliat  you  ])lease.  1  say.-.  :  If  you  want  to  kill  me,  1  am  ready."  I  askeil  him  if 
he  was  at  the  head  of  attairs.  He  said  "  no.  Mr.  Kiel  (tin-  prisoner  here),  was  at  the  head. 
He  .said  :  1   will  ha\  e  to  keep  you  prisimer  till  hi-.  arri\al." 

Q.  How-  many  jH'ople  were  with  Dumoiif .' — A.  There  wire  proliabiy  411,  ."hi  nr  (io. 

<j.  And  they  wertj  piinci]ially  your  in-inhbiiis  ? — .\.    Neighbor.-,  and   Indians. 

Q.  People  you  kni-w   well  .' — A.  Yes. 

(^.  And  .some  Jndians  .' — A.    Yes. 

<^.  How  iiianv  Injiians  do  vou  think  were  there.'  A.  'i'here  niii;ht  lra\e  been  I'O 
■or  l'.">.  '  "         I  ' 

'^*i.  I'id  you  say  anytjiing  to  these  people/  A.  I  asked  them  who  was  taking  me 
prisoner  whether  they  nsslsted  (iaiiriel  or  mit,  and  Ijo  one  would  answer  me.  I  .-.aid  it 
was  a  sery  foolish  thing  they  were  doing,  that  they  wouhl  all  In-  killed  if  they  went  cm 
\yhii  it.  if  they  meant  rebellion. 

Q.  You  made  a  s||ieeeli  to  them  ! — A.  Yes.  They  said  :  There  is  some  old  men  in  the 
liouse.  A  young  man  said  that.  He  said  :  you  had  better  go  and  ask  them  if  they  will  take 
him  ])risoner.    They  went  back  to  the  house  and  brought  along  two  men. 

<^.  Who  were  they  ! — A.  Donald  Ross  and  Clice  Touroml.  'I'liumnd  made  a  jump 
for  my  horse,  and  caught  him  by  the  rein  and   Itoss  con.sented. 

<^.    The  peciple  all  con.sented  to  your  arrest  .' — A.    ^'es. 

•  ^.  Where  did  they  take  you  to  I — A.  Hack  to  the  store  about  .se\eiity  or  eighty  feet 
from  the  road,  (iabriel  .says  :  •■  You  can  get  ilow  n  and  warm  yourself."  So  f  went  in  and 
warmed  iny.self.  While  I  was  in  the  house.  I  heard  the  peoj)le  .saying  in  French  •■thev 
Jnwe  taken  Captain  (iagnon." 

<^.  Who  is  lie  .' — A.  .\  ca]itain  of  the  police  force  stationed  at  Carlton.  All  the 
people,  went  out.      I  went  mit  with  them,  I  saw  .Mr.  Lash. 

Q.  Ffad  the  prisoner  arri\ed  at  this  time  .' — A.  After  I  went  out,  1  sawMr.  lliel, 
and  he  was  saying  to  .Mr.  Lash  :  "  Have  you  any  arms?"  Lash  said:  ••  Nck  I  never  carry 
any  iiniis." 

Q.  Who  a|)peare(l  to  be  in  command  after  the  pri.soner  arrived  .' — A.  Mi-.  Kiel  told 
nie,  he  says:  "  You  go  down  to  the  ehureh."  And  we  started  almost  immediately  for  tlie 
•  ehurdi. 

Q.   Did  every  one  apjiear  to  obey  him  ?      A.   Yes. 


:  .5!»  ^  . 

Q.    Diiiiiont  and  all  tlip  rest  ? — A.   Yes, 

(J  Toll  us  aliout  their  taking  you  to  the  ihuivli  ? — A.  Whvu  we  got  to  the  ehurch, 
they  were  in  the  froiit  of  the  ehuri-h,  Mr.  Riel  eoinnienced  sjiying  he  was  a  propliet,  that 
lie  could  foresee  eveijts. 

■Q.  Before  that,  how  many  men  were  in  anus?  At  the  tiuie  you  and  Nash  were 
taken  prisonei's  to  the  church  ? — A.    Well  there  might  lia\  e  Keen  aliout   "lU. 

Q.    How  were  they  armed  ? — A.    With  guns.  C 

Q.  Had  any  of  them  riHes  ? — A.  They  might  have  liad  rilies,  I  did  not  take  niuc" 
notice. 

Q.   They  were  armed  with  tire  arm>  ? — A.    Yes.    -  - 

Q.   Who  was  in  charge  of  the  church  ?  — A.   Revd  Father  Moulin. 

Q.  Did  you  see  him  on  that  occasion  ? — A.  When  the  crowd  got  to  the  church  he 
came  out  and  lie  wished  to  speak  to  the  ]>e(>ple.  Mr.  Riel  said :  "  No  we  Wont  let  him  speak. 
Take  hiin  away,  take  him  away,  we  will  tie  him."' 

Q.  lie  threatened  to  tie  him  '! — .\.  Yes.  He  said  :  ■•Shall  we  keep  him  inisoner  ?" 
Some  of  them  said  :   "  No,  we  will  put  a  guard  over  him.'' 

Q.  l)id  he  say  anything  ahout  taking  possession  of  the  church  at  the  same  tim«-  ? 
— A.  Yes,  Hie!  .said  :  '•  I  will  take  possession  of  the  chiifch.''  Father  Moulin  said  :  '•  I 
protest  against  you  louchin<;  the  church."  Riel  .says  :  '•  Look  at  him,  he  is  a  iivotestaut." 

Q.   'J'hi'  jirisoner  said  that  "'  -  A.   Yes.  '-(io  away  "  says  Riel,  "go  away.  ' 

Q.  What  ha])pened  then  ? — A.  They  went  ilito  the  church  then  and  ordered  us  to 
go  into  the  church. 

Q.  Ordered  you,  prisoners? — A.  Ye.s,  us  priscuiers.  Mr.  IViel  JuiLpcd  into  my  Cutter 
as  1  was  going  to  the  church,  he  howed  very  jiolitely  to  me,  and  said  to  take  my  lioi-se. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  the  <  luirch  ?— .\.  Vrolialily  a  (|Uarter  of  an  hour  or  half 
an  houi'. 

Q.    Wheiedid  t]ie\  tak<- you  to.'' — A.    Acios>  the  ri\er.  to  \\'alter  and  liaker'.s  store. 

(j.    Where  did  they  put  y<iu  then  ? — .\.    rpstair.-<. 

Q.  Were  there  any  |iriM>ner>  in  that  stoi'e  «  hen  you  arrived  ? — A.  They  took  ^fr. 
Lash  and  Tompkins. 

Q.    l)id  you  tind 
1  his  a.ssistant  Mi 

Q.  Were  you  kept  under  guard  at  Walters  and  ISaker's  store  ? — A.  Yes,  all  the 
time. 

Q.   That  would  lie  on  the  night  of  the  ISth  still  ?      A.   Yes. 

Q.  Tell  me  if  anything  of  imjiortancc  took  ])lace  that  night  ? — A.  They  took  Louis 
Marion  a  jirisoner  on  the  iHtU,  aluait  nine  or  ten  o'clock,  and  during  the  night  L- heard 
some  one  call  down  stairs  to  go  and  cut  the  telegraph  wires.  1  heard  a  noi.se  a.s  if  they 
were  going,  and  then  seveial  hours  afterwards  I  heard  them  saying  they  saw  a  lantern, 
that  some  one  was  repairing  the  telegra)ih.  1  lieard  them  as  if  they  were  starting  oft"  again. 

Q.  Did  they  hring  in  an/  more  prisoners  that  night  ? — A.  They  hrought  hack  Peter 
Toinjikins  and  McKean,  who  Ivid  been  repariug  the  telegraph.  ■ 

Q.  What  took  ]ilace  on  the  19th?  A.  (»n  the  morning  of  the  HHli,  they. sent  iw 
hack  to  the  church  again. 

Q.   Were  you  kept  there  all  that  ilay  ?     A.   Yes. 


Q.    l)id  you  tind  any  juisoners  when  you  got  there? — A.    Mr.  Walters  wa.s  a  j>risoiier 
with  his  a.ssistant  Mr.  Ifannij'in. 


/ 


60 


(^.   As  jtrisoners  ? 


A.   Yes,  as  prisoiiei-K. 


fv 


y.  Was  tlip  prisolicr  giving  orders  ?  A.  Ycsi,  he  ap]>eiii'e(l  to  be  at  tlif  lifad  of 
art'aiis.      Uf  was  j;iviii^  oi'ders. 

Qi  What  was  tlif>  chief  event  of  that  day  as  faf  as  you  can  reniemlier  ?-  A.  Me  was 
gi\ing  orders  to  go  and  take  William  Itoyerand  (Jliarles  Nolin  prisoners. 

Q.  l)id  you  hear  him  say  why  they  \w\<.-  to  he  taken  (irisoners  '.  A.  I>ecau>e  they 
would  not  take  up  arras. 

Q.  Jlid  lie  say  anytliing  aiiout,  hecau.se  they  had  lieiMi  mo\ers  u])  to  that  time.'  - 
A.    Hecajuse  tliey  had  heeii  movers,  and  had  left  it  at  the  time  of  taking  up  arms. 

(/    Was  Xolin  trie;l  .'      A.  Ahout  his  trial   I  canno(   say  exactly,   I  heard  liiel  -iiying 

-lie  ought  to  he  shot  or  that  tliey  shouhl  shoot  him.: 

i 
t^.    You  understood  Xolin  and   lioyer  were  tojhe  shot  .'      A.    Yes,  liotli  of  thenj. 

Q.  Anil  lieoilH.se  they  would  not  join  the  iiio\i'ment  in  taking  up  ;irms  .'  .V.  In  not 
taking  up  arms.  i  j 

().    NVIiere  dill  they  take  you  from  the  diurchj.'      .\.    In    tiie   evening   they  nrtereil  to 
.    '  take  our  woril  of  Iioihm"    we  would  not  try  to  escaijie,    and  they  gave  us  a  hook  to  |iut  our 
names  down,  and  they  told  us  we  would   he  moiei  comfortalde   down   at   ( larnot'.-.  house, 
.  and  they  took  us  down  there,  with  the  hig  guard  In. addition  to  our  word  of  honor. 

Q.   < 'oming  to  the  ".'(ttli  the  ne.\t   day,  can  yojii   tell    us   anything  of  impoitiince  that 
.   occured  i>n  that  day  .'      .V.    Yes,  somewhere  ahoutt  tlie  middle  of  the  day  Kiel  i  iinie  down 
to  see  the  prisoners. 

().    While  you  were  at  dinner  .'  —  .\.   Yes,  while  we  were  at  dinner. 

().    And  addressetl  you  all  .'     A.    Yes  addressed  us  all. 

Q.  Did  lie  say  anything  to  any  of  you  particularly  .'  A.  Well  he  told  .Mr.  Walters. 
Mr.  Walters  asked  liim  why  he  was  kee))ing  him  jirisoner,  if  he  would  not  give  liiiii  his 
liberty,  and  Uiel  said  he  would  think  over  it,  and  that  he  would  give  him  his  liberty. 
He  says  to  Lish  :  "  We  will  ort'er  you  the  same  jiosition  in  our  (io\ernment  which  vou 
liolil  under  the  J)omiuion  as  Agent,  that  is  if  you  will  accept  of  it.  ' 

Q.    .\fter  that  did  he  take  you  to  the   council    house  .'  -  A.    He    told    me    he     w.inted 

Hie  at  the  council  iiou.se,  so  1  went  to  the  council  house. 

t).  What  did  he  say  to  you  there  .' — A.  He  told  me  he  was  itoing  to  j,'ive  me  my 
libeity  and  tliey  would  reail  my  penalty  tor  iiiy  ciiine,  my  offence. 

{.).  Did  lie  make  any  t'urtlier  proiiiises  tliere  I— A.  Yes,  he  would  let  me  go  on  con- 
dition tli'at--I  would  not  do  anythilig  against  the  movement. 

y.  WImt  did  you  say  to  that  ?  A.  I  said  1  piefcned  lie  wnuld  lea\e  a  nuaid  over 
lue,  that  I  could  hardly  consent  to  that,    r 

Q.  Was  aiiytliing  else  .saiill  did  you  see  JiaNime  Lepine  there  .'  —  .A.  Yes.  I  .saw 
Maxiiiie  Lepine  there. 

y.  l)id  lie  take  jiart  in  any  conversation  you  remenilier  .' — A.  Yes,  lie  was  one  of 
.the  councillors.  ,  ,        ' 

Q.    Do  you  remember  anything  he  said  .' — A.   No,  I  cannot  remenilier  now. 

Q.  When  you  told  him  .you  would  rather  he  would  keep  a  guaril  o\  er  you,  what 
took  j)hice  '[■    A.  They  took  me  in  and  read  my  crime  to  me. 

Q.   Wliat  was  your  crime  ? — A.   Communicating  with  the  jiolice. 

Q.    %Vas  this  before  the  council  .'      A.    Yes. 

Q.    Who  apjieared  to  be  in  the  chair?     A.   Albert  Aionkman  and  (iuriiot. 


(51 

«.».   Wliiit  was  (Janiot  iutiiig  its?     A.  Secretary  of  the  council. 

tj.  They  read  over  to  you  your  otleuce  ?  A.  Yes,  tliey  read  over  to  me  inv  ofleiice 
5vnd  luy  penalty.  ' 

»i>.  What  was  your  offence  ?  A.  Coniniunicatini;  with  the  police,  and  insulting  Ga- 
liriel  I>uni<int.  _ 

I}.    What  was  your  penalty  ?      A.   They  took  my  hor.se  and  cutter  and  robe.  1 

<J.  They  were  to  he  confiscated?     A.   Yes. 

.    'Q.   You  were  to  he  jfivpu  your  lilierty  on  tlie  condition  that  you  would  do  iiothinj; 
H;;ainst  them  ?  —  A.   Yes. 

I  Q.   That  you  would  l>e  neutral  ?     A.   Yes,  I  had  no  alternative,  I  had  to  take  it. 

<4>.  Your  wife  And  family  were  at  home?  A.  Yes,  when  I  arrived  home  that  eveiiinj;, 
1  found  my  wife  in  a  jjreat  state  of  excitement  ahout  me,  it  ai)pears  Sioux  Indians  had 
l»een  tln-oujih  tliere  and  told  her  I  was   to   l>e  shot. 

Mil.  (iliiCKXsiiiKi.D.s.  '  There  should  he  a  limit  to  this  hearsay  e\  idence. 

•J.    From  the  20th  March  till  the  14th  .M  ly  where  were  you?      A.    I  was  at  home. 

fi.    Where  you  witliin  the  line  of  j;uard>.  of  the  rebel  position  ?—  A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  had  fi-e(|uent  occasion  of  seeing;  armed  parties?  A.  Ye-  they  werepassinj.; 
«iul  repassinj;  all  the  time. 

'.y   Did  you  see  Indians  in  arms  too?      .\.   Yes. 

t^>.  l)id  you  have  any  of  the  rebels  ipiartered  on  you  during  that  time?  A.  Yes, 
they  tiild  me  my  property  was  public,  every  body's  j)m])erty  was  public. 

m.   The  iirisoMir  and  others  with  him  took  wliate\er  thev  saw  fit  ?      A.    Yes.  • 

*).   Did  they  ever  speak  with  you  aliout  what  they  intended  to  do,  or  you  with  them  ? 
.\.    Well  after  tiie  Duck  Lake  ti<,'lit  most  of  them  were  frightened.      They  saw  thev  had 
jiiit  their  foot  in  it,  and  they  did  not  know  how  to  yet  out  of  it. 

*.}.    Do  you  know  the  day  fif  the  h'i.sh  Creek  fight  !   -A.   Yes. 

<^.    What  date  was  that?      A.    On  the  L'4th  of  April. 

iy   How  far  is  Fish  Creek  from  your  iuniie  .^ — A.  About  twelve  liiiles.  .   . 

«^>.    Did  you  see  the  reliel.s  going  ibiwii  to  Fish  Creek  ? — A.    Yes,  1  saw  them. 
i^.    Did  vou  see  tliein  'returoing?  —  A.    Yes. 

Q.  Had  you  any  conversation  with  any  of  them  on  returniu<j  ?  A.  Ye.s,  when  they 
were  returning  there  was  a  wounded  man  brought  into  my  house,  one  who  was  wounded 
at   Fish  Creek. 

l^.  Did  you  see  Riel  among  the  men  who  went  down  ? — A.  No  I  did  not.  I  could 
not  see  them  well  enough  to  identify  them,  I  would  not  e.\ pose  myself  that  much,  I^was 
hiding. 

Q.  Did'nt  vou  see  Riel  returning  from  the  direction  of  Fish  Creek  liefore  the  tight '. — 
A.  No,  I  did  not.  '■  t 

Q.   Did  you  ever  see  Riel  armed  ? — A.   I  saw  him  with  a  revolver.  .    - 

y.   On  what  occasion  was  that  ? — A.  That  was  while  I  was  ii  prisoner. 

By  Mr.  Fi'Izpathick. 

Q.  You  saw  Riel  in  connection  with  the  present  ditHculty  for  the  first  tinie  la.st  July 
or  August? — A.   Yes,  somewhere  ill  July  or  August. 


Q.  You  knew  the  ciivuinstiim'i's  uiiiU'r  wliii'li  lif  riiiiii-  into  tlu'  country.'  A.  I 
iM'lievt'il  111'  was  scut  for,  us  tar  as  I  In-aid. 

(^.  At  till-  tiuic  you  first  saw  liini,  tlit>ic  was  a  i-crtain  auiomit  of  a;,'itatiou  in  tlK-^ 
country,  was  tlii'rc  not  f      A.   Yi's   Sir. 

Q.  The  limitation  was  to  oljtaiii  l)y  constitutional  nn-aiis  to  ri'di-css  iti-rtain  ;,'rii'\aiK-fs 
that  tli<"  Half  lirwds  ].>r«*tcniU'(l  to  exist  .'      .\.    Yes. 

(^.   That  aL^itation  had  hccii  .L'oini^  on  for  .somi'  years  .'      A.    Yi's. 

Q.  Kiel  toUl  you  when  you  first  saw  him  that  hi-  had  conit'  for  the  juuiio.se  of  takin.:; 
iKirt  in  thfjit  a;{itation  at  the  re<|Uest  of  the  person.s  interestejl  .'  A.  NVell,  1  couhi  not 
sjiy  lie  exactly  s.iid  that,  luit  1  uu<hM>toiid  lie  came  foi-  that  purjiose. 

Q.    You  saw  iiim  frei|uently  from  -/^uly  last  u)i  to  the  month  of  .March  .'      .\.    Yes. 

(^.  l>id  you,  (kirini;  all  that  time,  hear  anything;  either  fmm  himself  or  any  i>ersoir 
el.se  whichy<\i)uhl  lead  you  to  lielieve  that  any  thin-;  in  the  shape  of  a  reliellion  was  in- 
tended liy  him  '     ■\.    No  Sir,  not  till  the  17th  of  .Maivli. 

Q.  Duriiiir  all  that  lime  he  lived  in  the  country,  and  took  part  in  all  the  movements 
that  took  place  J      A.    I  lielie\i'  he  <iid. 

Q.    ll  was  a  matter  of  common  rejiort  he  louk  |iart  in  all  th(isc  mo\  ements  /      .\.    Yes. 

().   Y'(ai  iie\er  heard  any  extraordinary  remarks  passed  with  ri'i,'ard  to  him   until  Ihi- 
.  17th  March  !      A.    No. 

Q.  ^'oM  kiiou  that  diti'eren.t  |ictitiiiiis  hail  ln'cn  in  lin-ulation  in  the  countiyand 
htt<H»een  forw'arlled  til  Ottavva  .'      .\.    1  lielie\e  they  had. 

i).    You  wen' alsiiaware  that  as  lateas  the  moiitli  of  Keljiiiarv  last,  a  petition  was  pre- 
pared   under  the  diiection  of  tlie  prisoner,  whicii  was  sij<ne<l   l>y  yourself,  and  which  was 
•sent  to  Ottawa,  or  of  wliicli  you  ajiproved  !     A.    I  mijilit  have  ajiproved  of  it,  lait  I  never 
siijiie*!  it.    lie  showed  iiie  a  petition,  some  time  in  .August,  I  think  ;  hut  I  never  heard  of 
it  heiiiLS  taken  around  to  !«•  si;rni(l. 

Q.    |)i(l  vou  hear  of  anytliinj;- in  Keliiuary  .'     .\.    No. 

(^.  .\t  the  time  of  that  meetini;  which  you  referred  as  haviiij;  taken  place  on  the 
"J4tli  Kehruary  .'  .\.  No,  I  hail  heard  the  (ioveinment  had  refused  |{ii-l,  that  they  wmUd 
not  have  anything  to  ilo  with  him. 

(^.  Do  vou  know  whether  any  answer  had  Keen  j^iven'to  any  petition  that  had  heen 
.sent  ill  !   Any  answer  liy  the  tiovernment  .'      .\.    1  lielieve  not.    I  never  heard  of  any. 

{).  It  was  a  matter  of  common  report  jirevious  to  the  17th  March,  tliat  the  police 
force  was  hein^  iticreasetl  !      \.    Yes,  there  was  soiiie  talk  of  it. 

(/  That  was  ;^eiierally  considered  aiiionj;  the.people  there  as  lieiiif?  the  answer  to 
their  petition  '.      \.    I  i-ould  not  say.  t  : 

t^.  Was  not  that  the  jjeneral  opinion  formed  liy  the  puMic  report  circulated  at  that 
time;      .\.    r couhl  not  say. 

t).  -Vfter  Kiel  ciine  into  the  country  at  the  rei|uesfc  of  the  Half-hreeds  do  you  know, 
«(f  vour  own  kno.wle.dj»e,  that  he  wa.s-very  poor  !     A.   Y''es. 

Q.  You  know  a  suhscription  was  made  up  for  the  purpcse  of  enahliil!,'  him  to  exist 
in  the  country  !     A.    Ye.s,  a  suliscrii>tioii  was  made, 

Q.  You  know  he  also  desired  to  return  to  Montana  aj,'ain  ?  A.  Yes,  there  was 
.soiiiethiiif^  said  ahout  him  returniiij^  to  Montana. 

Q.  You  said  that  the  fii-st  time  you  heard  of  anything  in  the  shape  of  an  armed 
rel)ellioii  was  on  the  17th  March  ?     A.   Yes. 


(•>:i 


I 


i|>    1  aclK'   UIKl    liIKllO]> 

oil  iiil   I'iiities  rininectt'd  with  tlie  Komliii  C'atliolic 


Q.    I'j)  to  tliiit  tiiiii-  till  Tf   had   1k-cu  nothing  of  tliat   kind  .sj)okeii  of  lu  anyway  t<i- 
youv  kuowlod'^j' .'-   A.  No,  tlicre  were  some  reports  in  the  j)aj)ers. 

i).  Hut  anion;;  till' ]ico|iie,  anion;;  your  iifijililiors  ?     A.   No. 

g.  Whfii  did  yon  tirst  sec  Hid  after  tlie  ITtli;     A.   On  the  IStli. 

Q.  You  saw  liini  at  tlie  time  hi'  took  possession  of  the  L-liuivh  '     A.   Yes. 

g.  You  heard  what  lie  said  to  tlie  priest  at  that  time  .'     A.   Yes. 

ij.    \'\i  to  that  time  hud  vou  heard  him  make  anv  lemaik  deroj^atorv  to  the  priests? 
—A.    Yes. 

y.   When?     .\.    In  tlie  month  of  Felnuaiy.  1  think.  / 

g.  Towards  the  end  of   Keliruary  ?     A.   Stmnjwlieie  in  Feliruary. 

g.    .\t  that    time   did   he  not  lia\e  a  dirtioidty  with   Father  Moulin,  jiist   state'what     '^ 
that  dittieiilty  was  '      .V.    Ili-  arciiseil  lii-lio))  Tai-h<'  and  Hislio)!  tJrandin  of  lieins;  tlieives 
and  roj,'ues. 

(.).    Made   a   ;;eneliil    onslauuht 
Churei  .'     .\.   Yes. 

lA  hidii  t  vou  rlearly  understand  at  that  time  that  this  man  deelared  Jiuhlielv  that 
he  hady-eased  to  lielon;;  to  tin-  Hi.iiian  Catliolir  (liurc-h  .'      A.    No. 

g.\|)idii't  he  say  lit  that  time  that  the  juiest  was  entirely  outside  of  the  ihuivh 
that  he  kvas  a  protestant  .'      A.    No. 

i}.  What  aliout  the  word,  protestant,  you  u^ed  in  your  examination  in  i-hief .'  — 
A.    He  said  that  on  the  ITtli  of  Maivh. 

i}.    The  dirticiilty  with   Father  .Moulin  was  in  .March  .'      A.    Yes,  and  in  Feliruary. 

g.    In    .Mai ill  he  said   the   ]iriesi  was  a   protestant  or  something  to  that  etiWi  ' 
A.    Yes. 

g.  Did  vou  lonsider  at  that  time  he  acted  as  he  had  actetl  when  you  first  knew  him 
in  .lulv  or  .\ii;;usl  with  refeieiue  to  the  priests  and  religion.' — A.  No,  he  acted  \  ery 
much  otherwise. 

Q.  Now,  can  your  niemory  enable  you  to  .say  what  he  .said  at  that  time  on  the  17t|i 
March,  ill  his  ditliculty  with  Father  Moulin  ?     A.    It  was  on  the  ISth  March. 

g.  State  what  took  place,  the  words  that  were  used  and  how  he  iH-ted  on  that 
occasion  .'-.\.  He  said  the  s)iirit  of  (io*!  was  in  him  and  Father  Moulin  said  he  was 
making  a  schism  aj.'aiiist   the  (/huich,  aii(|  Kiel  said  Rome  had  tumliled,  Roiw.  •'st  loiiJi!-', 

<,•.   Proceed  if  you  )ilease,  he  said  the!  Pope  of  Rome  was  not  legally  Pope  ?.     A.  ^  es. 

'      y.    He   said   the   ejii-copate  spirit  lilad   left    Rome   and  come  into  the   North-West 
Territories  .'     A.   No,  he  did  not  say  that. 

(j.    hid   li(^  say  anything  of  that  kind?      A.   He  said  the  spirit  of  (led  wa>  in  him 

and  that  Home  had  tuniMed,  and  he  could  toll  future  events. 

Q.  Did  he  state  the  reason  wjiy  Rome  had  tunihled  ? — A.  No,  he  did  not  give  the 
reason. 

y.  During  .lulv,  Au;;ust,  September  anij  Octolie;,  immediately  after  his  return  to 
this  country  he  attended  church  as  Roman  Catholic  geiierally  do  ? — A.  Yes,  he  acted  very 
devoutly. 

Q.  The  tirst  time  you  heard  of  the  rehellioii,  heard  it  talked  of  was  at  this  time  of 
the  17th  March,  and  it  is  on  that  day  he  gave  e.Ypression  to  this*  extraordinary  language 
you  have  just  told  us  al)Out  ?--A.   Yes,  on  the  Ifth  of  March. 


Ill 


ill' 


I  G4 

I 

"K  VJllilllI«»<I     I)J-      All-.      HtJKliRtlKlhl. 

T Stood   tllC  SfOVerillliejlt  had  refused   Mr. 

I()0((  eiio  |o' 

Riel,  V^lliderstjiiicl  you  to  Ue  refei-riii<^  to  ]Mi-.  Itiel's  owti  pcrsoiin.1  cLfLiitis,  i»  thn.t  ^vUl^t  you 

?— A.  Ko,  I  saltl  tliG  soveinineut  liatl  doclined  to  iurede  to  Kiel's  terms  ? 

^"^.     You   Wfl'e    I'efeiTilll'   to    Kiel's    o\\  ii    elaiuis  i ^A.     Ve.s,   fi-oiii   wliiit    I    iiiKlei-^itotxl,    it 

his  personal  claiiiis. 

The  Court   tlien  od.ioui  iif-dtill   July    29tli. 


Uegiiia,  Wednesday,  July  "il'tli,  IMf). 

,'   ■  Ooui-t  r«'tisseniJ»lesi  at   10  A.iVI. 

Geoih;k   Kkrr,  sworn,  exaniine<l  by  Mr.  Casgraiu. 

Q.  You  live  at  Batoelie,  I  believe  ?-A.  Yes. 

Q.    How  lontf  have  you  lived  there? — A.    I  went  tliere  in  Novemher,  in  1S84. 
Q.    iJo  you  know  the  prisoiiei*  ? — A.    Yes. 

Q.  Weil  Itetween  November  W\  and  the  outbreak  of  the  rebellion,  what  hap- 

jjeiietl  at  Batoclip  .'     Did  anvtliiiij;  happen   that    vou  know  of? — A.   No,   nieetiiiij.s  wei'i- 
lieUl.  "  "  * 

Q.    Wliilt  ^^a^s  the  tir.st    intiinatioii   you  had  of   the   outhreak  of   the   relielliDU  ?      A. 

Meetings  were  held  aUernatively  at  dittereiit  places,  itiul  tliey  called  at  our  store. 

(^.    Wlio  lielfl  the  nieeting.s  ?     -A-,    I  do  not  know,  tlie  couneil,  I  j^ues.s. 

Q.    Tliev   tailed    at    your   .store  ?- .\.    Yes,  they  called    there,  we  were   dealiiifi   with 

them. 

Q.    Who  were  tiiey  !- .\.    Mr.  Vandal   and    Mr.  Norliert    Oelorme,  I    do    not    know 
anv  more  t»f  tlieni  t  think. 

flC^Wlieii  was  this  ;     A.   In  January  and  Fehruary. 

(^.   You  keep  store  at  Batoclie  ?  — A.   Yes. 

(^.    In  partnership  with  your  brother  John  Ken? — .\.    Ye.s. 

Q.   What  did  they  do  at  your  store  ?  —A.   We  traded  witli  them  for  cattle  and  furs. 

Q.   Did  they  call  at  your  store  after  this? — A.  They  always  called  at  the  .store  and 
traded  there  as  a  general  thintf.  ^ 

Q.   What  was  the  first   intimation   you   had  of   any  outlueak   or   insurrection  * — A. 
The  ttrst  intimation  of  any  outbreak  was  on  tlie  lf<thof  Mardi. 

Q.   Wliat  happened  on  tjie   18th  March  ? -A.   On   the   17th    March   there  was  a  ru- 
mor circulated  around  the  store  that  a  meeting  was  to  I>e  held  at  Batoche. 

I  Q.  By  whom?  -A.  (Jabriel  Dumont  and  Riel,  the  pri.soner. 

Q.  Well,  what  happened  then  ? — A.  That  is  on  tlie  17th,  on  tlie  18tli  lie  came  down 
to  the  store. 

Q.   Wlio  came  down  to  the  store  ? — A.  The  prisoner  himself.  | 

Q.  Who  with?-— A.  There  was  a  good  many  followers  of  his. 

Q.   Can  you  give  the  names  of  any  ? — A.   Y'es,  I  can.      I  can  name  .some,  Jean    Bap- 
tiste  Vandal,  Joseph  Vandal,  that  is  all  I  can  name. 

Q.   How  many  were  there  ahout  ? — A.   Ahout  50. 

Q.  What  did  they  do  at  the  store  ? — A.  Riel  came  into  the  store  and  demanded  my 
guns  and  ammunition,  just  asked  for  them. 


65 

<J.    -vvi,n.t  ,Ii<I  ^ou  aav  7 A.    1  told  hini  thev  were  up    oil     the    ShCjf,        ^...,  .,^.,..,   ,,„,■ 

"witK    cross    liea.nis  and    tKo  g^uiis   ^vere   oil   tlio  cross  l>ea.ms,    I  ,tol(l    liiiii    to   t»ke   tlieiii. 

(J.     Oul  tney  iake  ineiu  ? — A-.     PKe   Halt-UreGcis  jumpfvl  fLt-ound  to  take  tlic^m,  mul^  lie 

Kjii«l,    *' wlit>   is    l>o»s   l»ere'*  1   I    told    Him    1    \v-a.s,    a.ncl   lie  su-id    *•  tUev  lia.ve   ii«y  ri-^tit  to  "O  l>e]iilicl 

jijor  coiiiiicr." 

Q.  Were  ; 

Q.    How  d 

Q.  What  happened  I— A.  He  went  away. 

Q.    Who  went  fLway  ? — A.    The  prisoner.       lie  told    ine    then,  lie  says  '*  jjcive  my  men 
M'lijit  they  want,  and  eliarye  it." 

Q.  To  whom  1—A.  lie  did  not  say  to  wlioin.  I  toldhiiii  to  take  wiiatever  lip  wanted 
in  the  .store. 

Q.    l)ifl  he  fonie  liack  to  your  store  ? — A.    Xo,  he  did  not  t-ome  (l»aek  at  all.       I  wrote 
liiiii  a  letter  tin*  next  mornin*^  to  know  it"  iiiy  brother  uud  I  could  yo  doM'ii  about  three  miles 

to  tiiid  out  where  our  t-attle  were. 


Q.  Were  you  boss  there  at  that  time  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.    How  (li<l  you  allow  tliem  to  take  your  guns  1 A..     I   told  them  to  take  theill. 


Q.    Did  lie 


ou  permission  1 — -A.   Yes,  he  sent  up  word  that  I  could  go. 


Q.    When  they  went  to   your  store  the  first   time,  were    the  men  armed  .' — A.    Yes, 

they  were  all  armed. 

Q.  Hiiw  iiuicii  animuiiition  did  tliey;j;et  at  your  store? — A.  A  kej;  of  powder  and  six 
English  double  barrel  shot  guns. 

Q.  Auytliiiii,'  else  ? — A.  Ye.s,  a  liox  of  Ballard  ItiHe  cartridges. 

Q.  He  j,'a\ e  you  permission  to  go  and  get  your  cattle  ? — A.  Yes,  to  go  ti\e  miles. 

Q.  Did  you  j;o  ?  —  .\..  Yes,  we  went  up  and  my  brotlier  and  I  stopped  .ibout  two 
Lours  I  tliink  at  Pellar's  liou.se,  tliat  is  about  three  miles  from  where  tlie  store  was  ;  when 
we  were  coming  l>ack,  we  met  a  load  of  Half-l)reed  women  and  Indians  with  packs  on 
their  Imcks. 

Q.  Did  you  recognize  any  of  them  ? — A.  They  had  some  frying  jians  which  were  ours.  • 
I  .said  to  my  brother  :  "Jack,  these  are  ours."  He  said  "no."  I  said  "  I  think  they  are."' 
I  went  to  one  of  the  women  and  asked  her  and  she  said  they  had  liroken  into  the  store 
and  taken  everything  out.  We  walked  pii  down  to  the  store  and  when  we  went  into  the 
store  there  ere  four  or  live  Indians  pulling  nails  out  of  the  beams,  the  store  was  upside 
down  and  tlie  Fairbanks  scales  were  turned  upside  down,  nothing  was  left  in  the  store 
at  all 

Q.  What  day  was  that  ?— A.  On  tlie  liSth. 

Q.   Did  anything  happen  on  the  19th  ! — -No,  that  was  the  lf>th. 

Q,.  Is  that  all  tliat  happened  on  the  I'Jtli  ?— A.  Yes,  that  is  all  that  happenetl  outhe 
19th. 

Q.   Do  you  know  anything  else  that  liappened  that  day  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  What  hajipened  on  the  subsequent  day,  the  20th  March  2— A.  No,  J  don't  know, 
I  was  not  allowed  to  go  away.  I  [jroiuised  Riel  I  would  not  leave  my  place  of  business 
and  1  kept  myself  reserved. 

Q.  Did  the  pri.soner  give  you  any  oi-ders  ? — A.  No,  he  asked  me  if  I  would  promise 
him  not  to  leave  my  place  of  business.     I  told  him  I  would  and  I  kept  my  word. 

Q.  Did  you  leave  your  place  of  business  ? — A.  No. 

Q.   Did  you  stop  there  all  the  time  ?  -A.  I  went  down  to  Mrs.  Venn's 

Q.  What  for  1 — A.  I  was  stopping  there.         "  , 

.    5 


66  , 

Q.  Did  you  get  liack  from  Mi-s.  Venn  on  the  19th? — A.  Yes. 
(^.   Dili  anything  happen  to  you  on  the  20th  ? — A.   Yes. 
■   Q.   Were  you  always  at  liberty  there  ? — A.  Yes.  i 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  tlie  council  tliat  was  formed  there  at  Garnet's  ? — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Under  what  circumstances  did  you  become  acquainted  with  the  council  ? — A.  I 
do  not  know  as  I  can  you  give  any  int'orniation.      I  know  tlie  wliole  of  tlieni  pretty  well. 

Q.   Were  you  at  any  time  arretted  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Whom  by  ? — Yes,  by  Solomon  Boucher,  Modeste  Rocheleau. 

Q.  Were  they  armed  ? — A.  Yes.  , 

''Q.   Where  w«re  you   taken    to  ? — A.  To  'Sir.    Ludger    Oareau's    house,    a    Frencli 
C'lHUulian's  house. 

<^.   Whom  (lid  you  see  there? — All  the  men  were  there.  * 

~Q.  Who  were  there? — A.  I  cannot  tell  you  all  the  names,  Norbert  Delorme,  Charles 
Nolin  and  Hoyer  who  keeps  the  store  there. 

(,».   William  Boyer?— A.  No.  •  . 

Q.  Jean-Baptiste  Boyer  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Joseph  Boyer  ?^— A.   No. 

Q.   A  man  of  tliat  name  who  keeps  the  store  '  -  A.   Yes.  i 

Q.   How  many  were  in  that  room? — .\.    I  su|)posB  50  or  60. 

Q.   Wei-e  there  any  arms  around '? — A.  They  were   standing  at  the  door  with  those  _ 
double  barrel  shot  guns. 

Q.   Did  you  see  the  prisoner  there  1 — A.  No,  I  did  not  see  him,  he  was  upstairs. 

•  ,».   How  do  you  know?     A.   I  met  him  when  1  went  in  tirst. 

(^,  Did  he  say  anything  to  you  ? — A.  No,  not  just  tlien. 

'j.  Any  time  on  that  same  day  did  you  see  him  ?— A.  Yes,  he  came  downstairs  and 
told  the  council  that  he  had  always  found  us  very  decent  fellows,  he  said  of  course  they 
rnay  have  done  something  that  has  escapsd  my  memory,  but  he  .says  "  if  tln-y  have,  excuse 
them." 

Q    Who  was  in  command  ? — A.  Gabriel  Dumont  as  far  as  I  was  concerned. 

Q.  In  connnand  of  what  ? — A.  He  appeared  to  be  in  command  of  the  whole  outfit, 
as  they  say  in  this  country. 

Q.  What  did  the  prisoner  do  there  ? — A.  I  dont  know,  he  was  upstairs,  when  he 
came  down  he  came  to  the  council  and  he  says  "  perhaps  something  has  escaped  my 
memory,  if  there  has,"  he  says  "excuse  tliem."  And  he  says:  "These  prisoners  are  in  j'our 
hands,  doas you  like  witli  them."  And  he  said  :  "They  always  acted  kindly  with  nie." 

Q.  How  was  this  council  constituted  ? — A.   Philippe  Garnot  was  at  the  head  of  the       ' 
.  table. 

Q.  What  was  he  doing  ? — A.  He  was  there.  He  had  a  book,  sitting  down.  He  got 
up  and  said  :  "  Messieurs  les  conseillers,  these  men  have  come  here  and  we  want  to  know 
what  to  do  with  them."   He  talked  like  that  and  they  came  over. 

Q.  Who  came  over  t— A.   Dumont  and  Delorme. 

Q.  Did  you  say  the  council  was  sitting  there  ? — A.   Yes, 

Q.  They  were  in  session  ? — A.  Yes. 


67 

Q.   Were  any  charges  nuule  against  you  l)eforethe  council  ? — A.  Yes,  three  charges. 

(^.  Wliat  were  tliey  ?— A.  One  charfjo  was  that  my  In-other  had  telp;,'raphed  with 
George  Ness  to  major  Crozier,  another  ciiarge  ma<le  was  tliat  we  wanted  to  ;,'et  our  cattle 
away  from  IJatoche,  and  that  we  wanted  to  get  to  the  ti-lcgrajih  otHeers  and  evade  the 
vigilance  of  the  police. 

Q.  What  action  was  taken  upon  those  charges  ? — A.  They  could  not  pro\e  anvthing 
and  they  let  us  go. 

Q.   I  understowl  you  to  say  that  the   prisoner  was   in   the   house  all  the  time  ? A. 

Yes,  up.stairs. 

Q.    Did  he  know  what  was  going  on  ? — A.   Yes.      No,  I  don't  know,  he  was  upstairs  • 
with  the  i)riest. 

i}.  He  came  down  you  said  ? — A.    Yes. 

<j.  l*id  you  answer  these  charges  .' — A.    Yes,. of  cour.se:' 

t^.  You  were  aci|uittcd  ! — .\.   Yes. 

ii,  What  was  the  state  of  that  j)art  of  the  country  '/—^.\.   <  Jreatly  agitated. 

l^.    Is  not   that  a  mild  word  ?  Was  it  only  greaitly  agitated,  what  do  you  mean  ? 

A.   I  mean  that  the  whole  country  was  e.vcited,  something  like  that. 

Q.    What  do  you  mean  by  excited  ':?      A.   Thilt  every  man  was  taking  care  of  liimself  ' 
as  near  as  possible. 

(^.  I)id  you  see  any  jieople  under  arms,  other  tlian  those  you  saw  in  this  council  I — 
A.   Yes,  all  around  the  council  chamber  they  were  under  arms.  .  ' 

By  Mr.  Fitzpatiuck.  ■    ,       , 

Q.   Wiicn  did  you  tirst  see  Mr.  Kiel  i — A.   I  met  him  in  November. 

.  Q.    of  last  year  ]  —A.    Yes. 

Q.  You  were  aware  he  was  in  the  country  from  November  up  till  March,  till  the 
figlit  at  liatoche  >—A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  have  occasion  to  attend  any  of  the  meetings  which  were  lu-ld  in  the 
country  during  that  time  ? — A.   No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  nature  of  those  meetings  of  your  own  knowledge? — A.  No,  I 
do  not. 

Q.   Do  vou  know  for  what  jiurpose  they  were  held  ! — A.   No. 

Q.    Did  you  at  any  time  attend  any  meeting  at  which  Riel  was  present  f — A.   Yes. 
Q.   What  time  was  that  J — A.   I  think  in  January.  . 

Q.  Last  year  ?— A.  Ye.s.  \ 

Q.  Can  you  remember  what  took  place  at  that  meeting,  was  it  a  political  meeting  1 —  • 
A.  No. 

Q.  What  kind  of  a  meeting  was  it  ? — A.  A  presentation  to  Riel  of  some  money. 
Q.   Money  gathered  by  tlie  people  of  that  place  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q  Did  you  hear  anything  there  about  the  Government  in  reference  to  the  grievances  ? 
— A.  No,  not  a  w  ord.  ■ 

Q.  What  took  place  at  that  meeting  ?— A.  My  brother  and  I  were  invited  to  go  to 
the  meeting,  I  gave  one  dollar  toward  it  myself.  We  were  invited  to  the  supjier,  and  the 
prisoner  was   there.     I  guess   the  whole  people  were  there.     There  were  about    150  in 


:  68  '       ' 

Baptiste  Boyer's  liousp.  There  was  a  pretty  good  spi'ead,  after  the   tiling  was  started  he 
made  ine  and  my  brother  sit  at  the  first  end  of  the  table. 

Q.  Were  any  speeches  made  at  the  table  ? — A.  Yes,  Riel  proposed  the  health  of  Our 
Sovereign  Queen  Victoria. 

Q.   Riel  did  that  ?^A.   Yes.  ■ 

'  Q.  Did  you  see  the  prisoner  after  that  meeting? — A.  I  saw  him  when  I  left  tliat 

niglit.  /; 

Q.  Did  you  see  hini  any  other  time  between  the  time  after  that  m«(^ting  and  the 
10th  March?— A.  No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did'nt  ha\-e  any  conversation  witli  him  at  all  ? — A.  No.  ' 

Q.   Have  had  no  intercour.se  with  him  1 — A.   Not  since  tlien.  ;  '  » 

Q.  Never  attended  any  meeting  held  by  him  of  the  council  ? — A.  N6'. 

;        ().  Do  you  remenil)er  a  meeting  alwut  tiie  L'4th   February,  at  the  church  ? — A.   No, 
I  was  not  tlicri'  at  all. 

().   You  arc  ijuite  certain  about  that  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  said  tTiese  people  broke  into  your  house  the  time  you  went  away  for  your 
cattle? — A.   Yes. 

(^.  Did  the  prisoner  a[Pi)rove  of  their  doing  that,  did  he  counsel  it  ? — A.  No,  I  wrote 
to  him  tlie  next  morning  about  it,  and  I  got  a  letter  liack  saying  that  he  did  not  advise 
them  in  any  way  at  all. 

Q.  Protesting  against  it  ? — A.   Yes,  protesting  against  it. 

Q.  Did  Riel  take  your  part  before  the  council  ? — A.  Yes,  he  took  my  part. 

Q.  Did  you  notice  anything  peculiar  about  Riel  at  the  time  you  saw  him,  did  he 
give  you  any  explanation  as  to  his  plans  or  programme? — A.  N,o,  he  never  spoke  about 
that  at  all. 

Q.   He  never  mentioned  his  political  programme?  — A.   No. 

Q.  Never  gave  you  to  understand  what  he  proposed  to  do  ? — A.  No,  I  did  not 
know  him  very  well,  only  sometimes  to  meet  him.  ' 

Q.  At  the  meeting  where  he  proposed  the  health  of  tlie  Queen,  do  you  remember 
under  what  circumstances  he  proposed  it? — A.  No.  Phiiipp  Garnot  came  with  that  paper 
and  I  put  my  name  down  for  one  dollar,  and  tliey  asked  me  to  go  down. 

Q.  Riel,  you  say,  proposed  the  health  of  the  Queen  at  that  meeting  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  there  any  treason  talked  ? — A.  No,  not  a  word. 

Q.  They  were  all  pleasant  together  as  loyal  subjects  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  in  that  section  of  the  country  ? — A.  About  a  year. 

Q.  You  knew  that  there  were  meetings  being  held  alternately  in  the  vicinity  of 
BatocTie  ?^A.  Yes.  i 

Q.  By  all  the  people  ?— A.  Yes. 

Q,  You  knew  that  Nolin  took  an  active  part  in  these  meetings  ? — A.  Yes. 


V 


69 
Henry  Walters  sworn,  examinecl  liy  Mr.  Scott  : 

Q.  Where  were  you  living;  in  ^March  last  t — A.   Batoche. 

(I.    What  was  your  occupation  ? — A.   Keeping  store. 

Q    Was  it  your  own  store  ? — A.   I  hiid  a  partner. 

Q.   \\'hat  was  your  partner's  name  ? — A.   Baker.    _ 

Q.   And  the  firm's  name  ? — A.    Walters  iii-  Baker. 

Q.   On  wliich  side  of  tlie  river  was  your  store  ? — .\.   On  the  West  side. 

Q.  Is  there  any  liouses  there  l)esi(U's  your  own  store  ? — .V.  Tltere  is  onlv  one  house 
close,  l>elonj;inj;  to  the  tirui. 

Q.   Batociie  proper  is  on  tlio  Kast  side  1 — A.   Most  of  the  stores  are  there.! 

Q     Were  you  there  on  the  18th  of  March  1  — A.   Yes.  ,    • 

Q.    Did  aiiythint,'  happen  that  day  ? — Yes,    chat  evening  this  thing  l)roke  out.  ■ 

Q.   What  hroke  out? — A.  The  reliellion.     The  tir.st  act  was  committed. 

Q.  What  intimation  had  you  of  the  breaking  out  of  the  rebellion  .' — A.  About  .six 
o'clock  in  the  evening  of  the  IStli  of  ifarch  I  looked  out  of  the  store,  and  1  saw  a  party 
of  armed  men  driving  towards  tlie  door,  they  came  up  the  hill  apparently  frf«m  the 
East  side. 

Q.  You  say  about  six  o'clock  in  the  evening  you  saw  an  armed  party  driving  to  your 
door  from  the  direction  of  the  river  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Wliat  did  they  do  ; — A.  They  came  to  the  store  and  entered  it.  A  man  came 
and  spoke  to  me  whom  I  did  )iot  know  at  the  time. 

Q.  A  man  whom  you  did  not  know  spoke  to  you  ? — A.  Yes,  he  asked  for  the 
proprietor.     I  said  1  was  the  man. 

Q.  Who  was  the  man  who  spoke  to  you  ? — A.  The  prisoner  is  the  man.  He  said  : 
"Well,  Mr.  Walters,  it  has  commenced." 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you  ? — A.  I  said  to  him  :  "I  suppose  you  are  'Sir.  Riel."  He 
.said  he  was.  1  asked  him  what  he  wanted,  and  he  said  he  wanted  nrms  and  ammunition. 
I  told  him  he  could  not  have  them. 

Q.  Did  the  conversation  continue  ? — A.  Yes  he  asked  me  to  give  them  up  ijuickly 
and  jM-aceably,  and  he  said  that  if  they  succeeded  in  the  movement,  they  wouhl  pay  me,' 
and  if  they  did  not  the  Dominion  Government  would  pay  for  them,  it  would  be  all  fight 
either  way. 

.  Q.   Did  you  ask  him  what  had   conunenced  ' — A.   Yes,  he  said  it   was  a   movement 
for  the  freedom  of  the  people,  or  something  to  that  eflect. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  what  movement  ? — A.  Yes.  .    :. 

Q.   He  said  a  movement  for  the  freedom  of  the  people  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Was  that  before  or  after  he  asked  for  the  arms  and  ammunition  ? — A.  It  was 
before. 

t^.  Wheii  you  refused  to  give  up  the  arms  what  was  said  ? — A.  He  argued  with  me 
and  wanted  me  to  give  them  up,  and  I  told  him  that  I  could  not  do  it. 

Q.  Was  anything  done  ? — A.  Yes,  they  tinally  took  them. 

Q.  Did  you  consent  1 — A.  No,  they  went  through  some  form  and  put  their  hands 
upon  my  shoulder.  Riel  ordered  the  men  to  do  that.  I  was  swanding  behind  the  counter 
and  they  forced  their  way  past.      I  did  the  best  I  could  to  stop  them." 


70 


Q.  They  got  past  you  1 — A.  Yes,  there  were  15  or  20  to  one. 

Q.  Were  all  the  party  armed  ? — A.  5,  C,  7,  or  8  were  armed.  I  did  not  count  the 
number. 

Q.   Was  the  prisoner  armed  ? — A.    I  did  not  see  anything  with  him. 

Q.  Had  you  any  conversation  witli  him  ?  Did  you  say  the  intention  was  to  arrest 
you  when  they  l/iid  their  liands  u|)on  you  ? — A.  I  did  not  tliink  .so  at  the  time  I  was 
arrested  a  few  minutes  at'tei-. 

:.  Q.    Had  you  any  conversation    with   the   prisoner   about  the  movement,    did.  he  say 

anything  I)(?yond  what  you  liave  told  us  ? — A.  Xo  he  did  not  at  the  time.     We  talked. 
I  thought  he  would  not  succeed  l)ut  they  thougiit  he  would.     That  was  aliout  all. 

Q.  Had  you  any  conversation  witli  him  at  any  other  time  about  the  movement  ? — 
A.  No,  not  in  reference  to  the  movement.  Hi-  told  me  what  they_  were  going  to  do  when 
they  took  the  country. 

Q.  What  were  they  jfoing  to  do  ? — A.  If  successful  he  told  me  they  were  going  to 
divide  the  iaiul.  \  / 

0-  How  was  he  going  to  (li\ide  it  ! — A.  One  7th  to  the  pioneer  whites,  one  7th  to 
the  In<Iian.s,  one  7th  to  the.  French  Half-breeds,  one  7th  to  the  Churcli  and  sphools  and 
the  balance  was  Ciowii  Lands,  I  suppose  Uovernmeut  Lands. 

Q.   That  is  the  way  ? — A.   Ye.s,  tliat  is  the  way  I  under.stood  it. 


Q.  Lands  of  whicli  (Joverniiient  ?— A.  (Jovernnient  Lands,  lie  did  not  fifty  which 
Government.  ''■ 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  charges  against  you  ? — A.  The  time  I  was  arrested  he  said 
that  something  had  transpired  which  led  him  to  believe  I  was  in  deadly  opposition  to 
his  course,  and  he  would  have  to  detain,  me. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  detain  you  ? — A.  1  was  allowed  to  f;o  on  ilie  third  day.  Tlie 
lirst  night' I  was  kept  over  my  own  store.  The  ne-vt  morning  I  was  moved  across  to  the 
chureli  at  Batoche.  i. 

Q.    Anil  kept  three  days  ? — A.    Xot  three  whole  day.s,  oidy  until  the  tliird  day. 

IJ.    Wen-  you  then  ri'leased  ?— A.  -.Yes,  the  prisoner  allowed  me  to  go. 

Q.  You  had  a  conversation  with  him  on  the  other  side  of  the  river  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  lie  say  anything  about  the  movement  there? — A.  No,  lie  did  not  say  anything 
very  particular  about  it.  He  said  they  would  liave  no  o]>position  from  Prince  Albert. 
He  saiti  the  |)eople  were  friendly,  he  .said  if  the  whites  struck  a  blow,  a  tluniderbolt  from 
heaven  would  strike  them,  that  (Jod  was  with  their  peo])lf. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  any  meeting  before  the  beginning  of  this  movement? — A.  1 
only  heard  of  meetings  from  time  to  time,   I  never  was  at  any  of  the  meetings. 

T^.    Were  there  any  other  prisoners  besides  you  detained  at  the  same  jilace  ? — A.  Yes, 

,  one  young  fellow  that  wi^s  with   nie  at  tlie  time,  and  during  tjie  evening  Liish  and  his 

interpreter  Tompkins,  (jtorge  Xe.ss,  Tompkins  and  another  man  that  was  repairing  the 

line.      That  i.s"  all  1  saw 


t|)0 


Q.  I  suppose  they  tpok  the  guns  and  amunition  fi-om  your  store,  did  they  take  any- 
thing el.se  ?— Yes.'  i 

Q.   Wliat  did  tliey  take  1 — A.   I  dont  think  tliey   were  taken  at  that  time.      They 
took  it  all  out  Ijefore  the  morning. 

Q.   Everytliing  out  of  the  store  ? — A.  Pretty  nearly  everything,  some  unbroken 
packages  they  did  not  take.     They  were  there  when  I  left. 

Q.   Do  you  know  who  was  superintending  the  removal  of  the  goods'! — A.   Every  one 


71 


) 


helped  themselves  to  the  clothing  and  mocassins  and  in  the  morning  they  were  carrying  • 
away  the  heavy  goods,  and  Rial  was  superintending  their  removal. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  the  prisoner  superintended  the  removal  of  the  goods  in  the 
luorning  ? — A.  He  was  giving  directions,  he  was  standing  up  on  the  seat  of  his  cutter  iu 
a  prominent  position  and  the  Half-hreeds  were  loading  up  the  goods. 

By  !Mr.  Greexsiiields.: 

Q.   How  long  have  you  been  living  at  Batoche  ? — A.   Nearly  two  years. 

y.  Were  you  aware  tiiat  there  was  excitement  and  agitation  going  on  among  the 
Half-hreeds  some  time  previous  to  this  time  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   It  was  rumoured  ? — A.   Y«s. 

Q.   Had  you  «!Ver  ^en  Riel  before  the  time  he  t-aiue  to  your  store  ?— -A.   No,  not  to 

my  knowleilge.  - 

'  /^ 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  he  canu^  to  the  country  last  year  ? — A.  1  heard  at  tlu'  time 
that  he  came  in. 

Q.  You  heanl  tliat  he  had  been  .sent  for  Ijy  the  Half  breeds? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  know  for  w  hat  purjiose  ? — A.  No,  I  heard  that  the  Halt\breeds  had  grie- 
vances. 

0-  And  t\icy  wanted  Kiel  to  assi.st  tliem  ? — A.  Ye.s. 

Q.  When  this  discussion  between  you  and  the  prisoner  took  place  regarding  the 
division  of  the  NorthAVest  Territories  was  that  in  the  store  ? — A.  No,  in  the  church, 
next  day. 

Q.  Did  you  talk  about  anything  else  at  that  time  with  him  1 — A.  No,  what  I  was 
thinking  about  was  to  try  and  get  away.  _  , 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  that  he  exjiected  assistiince  from  other  powers  in  this  rebellion  ? 
—A.   No,  I  cannot  say  he  did. 

Q.   Are  you  positive  he  did  not? — A.    I  have  no  recollection  of  his  .saying  so. 

Q.   Did  he  say  anything  about  the  Germans  and  Irish  ? — A.   No. 

Q.   f)r  the  United  States  ?— A.   No. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  about  his  religion  at  that  time  ? — A. 
No.  ■  ^  .  . 


HiLLV.^iU)  .Mitchki.l,  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  O.sler. 

I 
Q.    What  i.s  your  occupation  '] — A.   Indian  trader. 

Q.  Where  were  you  carrying  on  business  in  !March  last  ? — A.   Djick  Lake. 

Q.   I  believe  you  are  a  Justice  of  the  Peace  there  1 — A.  Ye.s.         j 

Q.   You  had  a  store  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A.   Yes.  i 

Q.  What  was  the  first  you  knew  of  this  trouble  ?  -A.  The  first  I  lieard  of  the 
actual  rising  was  when  I  was  coming  from  a  place  called  Sandy  Lake  to  Duck  Lake.  I 
was  cro.ssing  the  Saskatchewan  when  I  met  one  of  the  priests;  and  he  told  nie  to  get 
back  to  Duck  Lake  as  the  Half-breeds  were  in  arms  and  intended  to  take  my  store. 

Q.  You  heard  from  him  that  this  was  their  intention? — X.  Yes. 

Q.   What  was  the  first  you  sow  of   the  trouble  ?— -V.    I  went   to   the   Fort   and   saw 
Ma  or  Crozier,  aiul  he  told  me —  "     . 


72 


i/ 


Q.  \He  will  speak  for  himself.  What  date  was  that  ? — A.  I  don't  rernenil)er  the  date, 
it  was  oil  Thursday,  I  don't  remember  the  date  of  the  month,  but  I  think  it  must  have 
been  the  rSth.- 

Q..The  Thursday  preceding  what? — A.   Preceding-  tlie  day  of  the  Duck  Lake  fight. 

Q.  What  was  tlie  lirst  you  saw  of  the  prisoner? — -A.  The  first  I  saw  of  the  prisoner 
was  some  time  after  Cliristmas.  He  came  to  my  store  then,  and  that  w  as  the  Hrst  I  saw 
of  him. 

,  Q.   I  speak  more  in  refereiice  to  the  first  time  you  saw  liim  after  the  trouble  com- 

menced ? — A.   1  saw  him  at  Batoche,  after  coming  from    Carlton  I  went   to   Duck  Lake 
and  from  there  I  went  to  Batoche.  f   ^        ' 

-  Q.   On  a  Thursday  2— A.   Yes.  ^  ■ 

i 
Q.  At  Batoche  whom  did  you  see  ?- 

was  the  trouble. 


-A.  I  met  Bernard  Paul,  and  I  asked  him  what 


ed?- 


You  had  a  talk  with  him? — A.   YeS.' 


J.   We  want  to  come  down  to  the  occuriences  with  which  the  prisoner  was  connect- 
A.   I  went  to  the  river,  where  I  met  this  man,  two  miles  from  tlie  river. 


Q.  What  took  place  at  the  river  ? — A.  I  saw  a  great  many  people  around  the  river. 
It  was  then  getting  dark.  I  saw  that  two  or  three  of  ^yje  peojile  on  this  side  of  the 
river  had  guns  in  their  hands,  people  whom  I  knew.  I  recognized  some  of  them,  and 
when  they  saw  me  they  ap|ieared  to  be  getting  out  of  the  way.  f)n  the  other  side  of 
the  river,  I  saw  a  man  standing  on  the  hill  with  a  gun  in  his  hand.  I  went  on  to  the 
village  of  Batoche  and  .saw  some  English  Half-lneeds  waiting  with  loads  of  flour.  They 
said  tliey  had  been  waiting  all  day  to  be  unloaded,  and  that  they  had  been  taken  prisoners 
by  Riel.  They  were  loaded  with  Hour,  and  I  saw  the  loads  and  they  were  loaded  with 
Hour. 

Q.  What  next  ? — A.  T  ti-ied  to  get  as  much  information  as  I  could.  I  did  not  know 
whether  it  would  be  safe  for  m"  to  proceed,  and  I  did  not  know  how  I  might  be  received 
by  these  people.  I  saw  Fisher  and  also  Garnot,  and  their  opinion  was  that  I  could  go 
into  the  council  room.  I  asked  where  the  council  room  was,  and  Philip  Garnot  took 
me  to  the  council  room.  I  did  not  go  into  the  council  room,  I  went  into  the  pi-iest's 
house.     I  saw  some  people  standing  outside,  and  I  went  upstairs  in  the  house. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  see  ? — A.  Charles  Nolin,  Philippe  (Jardupuy  and  a  small  man  named 
Jackson  who' was  walking  up  and  down.  , 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  prisoner  ? — A.  I  Wiw-  him  after  some  time,  I  waited  about  an 
liour  before  I  saw  him.  I  said  that  I  wanted  to  see  him,  and  that  was  what  I  came  for. 

Q.  Can  you  place  this  date  mor'e  accurately,  do  you  know  the  day  Walter's  store 
was  raided  ? — A.   I  am  told  it  was  on  Wednesday,  not  on  Tuesday. 

Q.  Wfas 
Tuesday. 

Q.  This  would  Ije  Thursday  ,  the  20th  probably  ?— A.   I  think  it  was  the  1 9th. 

Q.  Had  you  a  conversation  with  the  prisoner  ? — A.  I  had  a  long  conversation  with 
hini,  he  did  most  of  the  talkifig. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  the  conversation  was  ? — -A.  Some  one  told  me  that  he  was  pleased 
to  see  me.  I  went  down  l>elow,  there  was  no  light.  He  asked  me  to  sit  down  and  said  he 
was  pleased  to  see  me,  and  that  kind  of  thing.  I  told  him  I  came  to  find  out  the  cause  of 
this  trouble,  what  it  meant.  And  I  said  that  he  need  not  look  upon  me  as  a  spy,  as  I  simply 
came  as  a  friend  of  the  Half-breeds,  to  give  them  some  advice  and  try  to  get  them  to  go 
home.  He  went  on  explaining  the  cause  of  the  rising.  He  said  that  the  Half-breeds  had 
petitioned  the  Government  several  times  to  have  their  grievances  redressed,  but  never  got 


this  after  that  .store  had  been  raided? — A.  Yes,  I  left  Duck   Lake  on 


73  •    i. 

a  proper  reply  and  tlie  reply  they  were  getting  now  was  500  policemen  to  shoot  them.  I 
told  hiin  tlie  whole  thing  was  a  false  rumour,  that  no  police  were  coming.  There  always 
have  been  false  reports,  and  I  looked  upon  this  one  as  not  true.  He  said  it  did  not  matter 
whether  it  was  true  or  not,  that  tlie  Half-hreeds  intended  to  show  tlie  (Sovernment  that 
they  were  not  afraid  to  tight  J>00  men,  either  he  or  the  others  told  me  that  that  was  said. 
He  went  on  about  the  Half-breeds  grievances,  and  he  said  he  had  sutfeied  himself,  that 
he  had  formerly  been  kicked  out  of  the  country  tifteen  years'  ago  and  kicked  out  of  the 
House.  He  said  a  great  deal  against  Sir  John  and  the  otlier  meiubers  of  the  Government, 
particularly  against  Sir  John.  He  said  that  he  intended  to  bring  Sir  John  to  his  feet 
and  talked  a  great  deal  of  bosh.  This  was  all  in  the  dark,  others  were  in  the  room,  several 
Half-breeds. 

Q.  He  talked  as  well  of  his  own  grievances  ? — A.  Yes,  principallj-.  All  he  said  aV)Out 
the  Half-breeds  grievances  was  that  they  had  jtetitioned  the  Govetnment,  and  then  he 
went  on  with  a  long  string  of  his  own  grievances,  about  his  being  turned  out  of  the  House 
and  having  to  leave  the  country.  1  think  he  called  himself  an  outlaw.  He  said  he  had 
been  outlawed. 

Q.   He  was  particularly  hard  on  Sir  John  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Then  was  there  anything  el.se  <.f  importance  that  evening  ? — A.  Of  course,  I  asked 
him  to  give  some  decided  answer.  I  tried  to  persuatle  him  and  the  people  to  go  home.  I 
had  to  l>e  careful  as  I  did  not  know  what  ground  1  was  treading  on.  I  did  not  know 
what  moment  they  would  make  me  a  prisoner,  and  I  did  not  want  to'be  made  a  prisoner. 
He  said  he  was  very  glad  I  had  come,  that  my  coming  no  doubt  might  stop  the  thing  at 
once,  but  he  said  he  could  not  give  an  answer  to  me,  as  it  would  take  soiue  time  to 
consider  it.  He  expres.sed  a  desire  to  communicate  with  the  Goveinment  and  try  and 
get  the  grievances  redressed  through  the  telegraph.  I  said  for  him  to  have  the  wire 
repaired  as  there  would  be  a  great  many  false  reports  in  Canada.  I  told  him  he  had 
done  a  foolish  thing,  and  asked  him  to  have  the  wire  i)Ut  up  at  once,  get  the  grievances 
redressed  if  possible  and  get  tlie  thing  stopped  in  that  way.  I  did  not  look  upon  it  as 
.serious,  I  thought  the  thing  would  simmer  down.  He  said  he  would  give  no  answer 
that  day,  tliat  it  would  take  some  time  to  consider  it.  I  _       , 

Q.   WliJit  did  you  do  ? — A.    I  went  home. 

Q.  In  going  home  did  you  see  anything? — A.  I  .saw  several  men — 'of  course,  it  was 
dark  when  I  was  going  back — I  saw  several  men  around  the  village,  loaling  about  with 
guns.  After  I  crossed  the  ri\er,  I  was  stopped  by  two  men  on  the  other  side  of  the  hill, 
one  catching  hold  of  my  liiiise.  They  came  alongside  tlie  sleigh  and  asketl  me  if  I  was 
free  ?  L  said  yes.  And  I  was  allowed  to  go  on.  I  came  batk  to  iSatoche  the  next  day 
to  get  a  decided  answer  from  the  jieople  and  to  see  what  they  would  do,  and  see  if  I 
had  made  any  impression  upon  them. 

(^.  What  j)assed  that  day? — A.  1  was  taken  to  the  council-room  and  I  was  told 
they  wanted  the  unconditional  surrender  of  Fort  Carlton,  and  I  was  asked  if  I  would 
niak<^  that  pi'opo.sal  to  the  police.  I  told  them  it  was  too  absurd,  but  I  said  I  w<nild  be 
happy  to  arrange  a  meeting  between  Major  Crozier  and  themselves,  but  1  would  not  make, 
such  a  proposal  myself.  JSefore  I  came  that  morning  I  heard  they  had  got  some  plan  for 
.sending  for  me.  I  think  I  was  to  carry  a  white  Hag  ahead  of  those  gentlemen  to  Cailion, 
and  I  was  to  make  the  proposal  to  the  peoj>le  in  the  Fort.  They  said  if  the  |iolice  did  not 
surrender  they  would  go  for  them.  I  think  the  police  were  to  carry  a  cross.  They  told 
me  they  were  800  sti-ong.  It  was  not  Kiel  that  said  that,  it  was  at  the  Council  that  it 
was  said.  Noliii  was  the  speaker.  I  asked  him  to  put  up  the  wire.  He  said  he  could  not, 
that  it  was  cut  below  Saskatoon.  The  two  things  I  asked  him  about  were  tlve  release  of 
the  prisoners  and  about  the  wire. 

Q.  He  refused  both  1-*— A.  He  released  Walters  and  his  clerk. 

Q.   Was  this   the  occasion  when  Thomas  McKay  was  with  you  ?  -  A.   No,  after  that 


A- 


74 

I  went  to  Carlton  to  try  and  arrange   a  meeting  between  them  and   the  head   of  the 

GovernnKuit,  ^lajor  (Jvoiin: 

Q.  The  interview  vou  are  now  speaking  of  would  lie  on  the  20tli  ? — A.  On  Friday 
the  20th. 

Q.  Then  you  went  to  Carlton  1 — A.  Yes,  and  reported  matters. 

Q.    What  next? — A.   >[iijor  Crozit-r  said  he  wns  willing  to  meet   Rid  man  to  man 
with  or  without  an  escort,  and  at  any  place' that  suited.     I  named  a  jilace  I  asked   the 
Major  to  send  a  wi-itteu  note  to  Kiel,  liut  he  said  tliat  it  was  not  necessary,  there  was  no 
'  occasiou  for  it.   McKay  went  back  with  me. 

.  Q,  Was  it  the  next  morning  thitt  you  went  f — A  We  siarted  from  Curllon  about 
one  ii'ciock  in  the  morning.  We  w<''nt  to  Duck  Lake.  I  liiid  arrangi'd  with  the  council  to 
have  two  messeniicrs  ready,  so  that  I  would  not  liive  to  ,i;o  liack  to  Itatoclii-  aj;ain,  anil 
they  Would  carry  the  re])ly  of  the  ^lajor,  and  I  found  the  two  Arcaiids  wiiiting  to  get  the 
reply  from  Carlton. 

Q.  ,Did  you  send  it  on  by  them  ?  — A.  No,  I  did  not  Siiy  anything  at  all  about  it ...  . 

(^.  So  the  iuter%iew  of  the  morning  of  the  2 1st  was  arranged,  and  you  and  Mr. 
McKay  went  forward  ?  —  A.   Yes,  we  went  over  to  IJatoche. 

Q.   Whom  did  you  see  there  ? — A.   A  great  many  people. 

,  •  Q.  Speaking  of  the  actions  of  the  prisoner,  or  the  words  of  the  jirisoner,  tell  ns  what 
took  place? — A.  On  this  occasion  he  was  very  much  excited  and  he  did  n»t  like  m}' 
brinying  over  Mr.  .McKay. 

Q.  Wiiat  did  he  .sjiy  .' — A.  McKay  had  some  conversation  with  these  people  iiere  in 
my  jiiiuse  and  these  two  jnen  and  .some  other  men  were  brought  up  us  witnesses  against 
McKay,  that  he  was  a  traitor,  and  they  talked  pietty  roughly  to  him.  Mr.  lliel  talked 
very  roughly  to  him  and  said  that  the  government  and  the  Ilud.son  ]5ay  Company  werp 
the  two  curses  of  the  i-ountry,  and  that  lie,  McKay,  was  hand  and  glove  with  tiie  Hudson 
Hay  Comjiany. 

Q.   That  was  sjioken  of  McKay?  —  A.   Yes,  and   he  .siiid  if  he  was   not   caiefyl   his 
blood  would  be  the  tirst  blood  shed  on  this  occasion.    I  told  tliem  1  lind  u.>ked  .Ml'.  McKay 
to  come  as  njy  frieuil.     I  told  tiie  people  he  was  one  of  Jler  Maji'sty  s  soldiers,  and  I  told 
them  it  was  rather  rough  for  them  to  speak  of  Mr.  McKay  in  that  way.    J{iel  called  down  ^ 
.  and  said  :  If.  Mr.  McKay  came  as  your  friend,  he  is  entitled  to  the  Same  (irotection  that; 
you  are,  but  tliat  is  tine  only  thing  that  .saves  him. 

Q.  Then,  what  else  took  Jilace  ? — A.  After  thiit,  I  asked  Kiel  if  he  W(,uld  come  tp 
the  council  chamber  up  stairs,  we  went  up  there  and  I  told  him  the  nie.ssage  1  had  from 
Major  Crozier,  that  he  would  meet  him  man  and  man  at  a  certain  )ilace  alone  or  with  an 
escort,  and  he  got  \ery  much  e.xcited  and  said  lie  would  not  take  Major  Crozier's  word  of 
honor,  that  I  ought  to  have  brouglit  tlie  thing  in  writing  anil  be  asked  me  tn  jmt  it 
in  writing.  I  objected  at  tirst  but  finally  I  did  put  it  in  writing  to  tlie  eti'ect  that  ^lajor 
Crozier  would  meet  either  Kiel  or  some  one  sent  for  Kiel's  people  if  he  gave  him  time. 

Q.   You  made  a  memorandum  of  it  and  signed  it? — A.  Yes,  to  his  dictation. 

Q.  Then,  what  else? — A.  Ife  seemed  very  much  excited,  and  he  said  something 
about  a  war  of  extermination  unless  he  cojuld  come  to  terms  with  the  govennnent,  and  he 
blackguarded  the  government  a  great  deal,  and  he  blackguarded  the  members  of  the 
government  and  he  said  their  word  was  not  worth  that  (indicating  with  his  thumb),  tiiat 
it  was  no  good.  I  ottered  to  give  myself  as  a  hostage,  that  Major  (Jrozier's  word  was  per- 
■  fectly  good.  He  said  I  had  nothing  to  risk  and  he  refused  to  take  it.  In  fact  he  refused  to 
meet  Crozier,  but  he  named  people  who  would  meet  him.  i 

Q.  Two  wiio  would  meet  him  ? — A.  Yes,  of  course.     I  carried  this  message  liack  to| 
Carlton.  i 


75 

Q.   Is  that  alx)ut  all  that  took  place  on  that  occasion'"! — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  see  many  people  around  the  council  htRise  i — A.  I  saw  the  whole  of 
tlie  population.  I  saw  a  great  n.any  people  there.  I  coifwideied  the  whole  settlement 
was  there.  \  - 

Q.   L)id  you  see  any  body  armed  ? — A.   Yes  they  were  all  riiore  or  less  armed. 

Q.  Any  Indians  ?^ A.  No  I  diil  not  see  many  Indians  ^here  but  I  met  Indians 
coniin;^  down. 

Q.   Did  you  ao  back  to  Fort  Carlton  ,' — A.   I  weiit  back  to  Duck  Lake  and  then  to     > 
Fort  Carlton" with  -Mr.  McKay. 

Q.  TlitMi  did  any  further  meeting  take  place? — A.  I  finished  the  thiiiu  there.  1 
toUl  Major  Croia«'r  what  they  lia<l  deiided  U]ion. 

t^.   Whatjlid  you  ne.vt  do  ' — A.    I  came  back  to  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  AVhp  was  the  next  you  knew  nt  it  ? — A.  I  met  two  jieople  who  had  been  named 
by  the  OouyTifil  to  iioM  a  iiieetini;.  I  did  not  go  to  the  meeting.  I  only  arranged  for  the 
meeting.  If' was  Ca])tain  .Moore  who  went.  I  met  these  two  peo})le  coming  and  told 
them  to,g|jW  there  as  .soon  as  po.s.silile.  tliat  it  was  getting  dark  and  that  they  should  go  as 
soon  as»'l)<jssible  and  then  they  went  on  and  had  their  meeting  and  came  liack  aliout  'J 
fi'clook,  rfnd  1  had  some  conversation  witli  Mr.  Nolin  then.  I  advised  him  to  escajie,  he 
had  l/ecn  a  prisoner  before  and  he  told  uie  he  had  been  forced  into  the  thing  and  that  he 
liad  been  condennied  to  be  shot.  I  told  Nolin  to  tell  Kiel  and  the  people  that  I  had 
iiiiished  with  tiieni  and  that  tliey  must  now  consider  I  would  have  nothing  more  to  do 
with  them,  that  I  had  done  what  1  could  to  i|uiet  them  down. 

i^.  Then  was  there  any  formal  jiroieedingor  any  attempt  at  formality  on  the  occa- 
sion of  Mr.  Mckay  and  yourself  being  at  tiie  Council  house  ? — A.  I  don  t  exactly  under- 
stantl  }'ou. 

Q.    It  is  saidtiarnot  was  secretary  and  that  the  council  was  called  together.  AVhat  do 
you  know  about  that  .' — A.   There  was  a  general  hurrah  given  and  people  went  up  to  the 
"  Council  table.     There  was  a  speaker  and  a  secretary. 

(^>.    Was  any  one  called  upon  to  act  as  secretary? — A.   Garnot  was  secretary. 

i}.   Philipjie  (iai-not  ; — A.    Yes,  at  that  time. 

(^'  Wlu're  were  you  on  tlie  occasion  of  the  Duck  Lake  trouhie  ? — A.  I  wa>  with 
the  troops. 

Q.  On  the  occasion  of  that  tight  ? — .\.  I  was  advancing  on  to  Duck  Lake  with  tlie 
police  and  volunteers. 

Q.   And  were  you  in  the  tight  .' — A.   Yes:  I  was  in  the  tight, 

Q.  And  the  lesult  was  that  you  did  not  get  to  Duck  Lake  ? — ^A.  No,  we  had  to 
retreat. 

Q.  You  were  not  able  to  take  possession  of  your  store  '^A,  We  did  not  get  to  the 
store  ;  we  were  stopjied. 

Q.   By  reason  of  the  armed  fori-ed  ? — A.    Yes. 

C^.  I  believe  your  store  was  laideH  afterwards  ? — A.  Every  thing  I  had  was  t.iken 
away  and  the  place  was  burnt  down,  they  made  that  place  their  head<iuarters  for  two 
weeks,  and  they  cleaned  my  stfire  out  entirely. 


r 


.  .       76 

Thomas  E.  Jacksox  sworn,  exaiiiin^l  liy  Mr.  Osier. 

,  Q.  Do  you  live  iit  Prince  Albert,  Mr.  Jackson? — A.    I  do. 

Q.  You  area  (lru;!;,i,'ist ? -A.  I  am. 

Q.   You  have  beeiii  there  for  some  years  '} — A.   Some  six  years. 

Q.   Your  brother  William  Henry  Jackson  I  believe  was  cue  of  the  prisoners  I — A. 
He  wa.s. 

Q.   And  he  had  been  in  the  company  of    Kiel   immediately  prior  to  the.se    troubles 
and  during  the  troubles  .' — A.    For  .some  time  previous  to  them. 

Q.   You  had  known  of  the  movement  and  the  agitation  tliat  was  in  the  country  ? — 

A.   Oil  ye.s,  and  I  sympatliized  with  them. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  the  piisoner  being  in  the  country  ?  A.  Yes,  I  knew  of  his 
coming  to  the  country.'    I  heard  he  was  coming  shortly  before  he  came  back. 

Q.  You  knew  of  li^m  after  he  came  to  the  country  ? — A.   Yes, 

Q.    I  believe  you  lilivewSeen  him  write  ? — A.   Yes. 

<^.   Do  you  know  Iijs  handwriting  ? — A.   I  know  his  liandwriting. 

Q.  You  went  over,  I  believe,  on  an  occasion  shortly  after  the  Duck  Lake  figlit  for  the 
bodies  of  those  who  were  slained  ? — A.    I  did,   I  was  one  of  those  wlio  went.  \ 

Q.    How    niiuiv   days 'after? —  \.     Three    days    after       It    was    the  Sunday    afteVl 
the  tight.  '  "  ' "  ^  •  V 

Q.  How  did  you  com«  to  .go,  under  what  circuilistances  did  you  take  that  journey  ? 

— A.   Mr.  Sanderson  who  liad  been  a  prisoner  of  Biel  was  released   by  him   to  carry  a 

-    message  to  Major  Cro/.ier  to  remove  thti  dead  bodies,  and  Crozier  had  taken  him  ]iri.soner 

at  Carlton  and  then  took  him  to  Prince  Albert  ;  I  interviewed  S'ander.son  and  asked  him. 

.      about  my  brother  and  he  told  me  he  was  insane,    f 

^  Q.  You  were  eiu|uiring  about  your  brother  fr^mf^anderBon? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  It  was  arranged  Sanderson  sliould  go  ? — A.  Yes,  Sanderson  said  lie  was  going 
and  otfereil  me  to  go  with  him. 

Q.   And  wlio  else  went  with  you  ? — A.   William  Drain. 

Q.  You  .started    I   think   on   the   31st?— A.    Sunday   the    29th,  the  Sunday  after 
tight. 

Q.   You  went  to  Duck  Lake  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   Did  you  see  the  prisoner  there  ? — A.   I  did,  / 

Q.  What  passed  between  you  ? — A.  General  conversation, 

Q.   Give    us  the  material  part  of  it  ? — A.    He  spoke  of  having  taken   up  arms,  that 

he  had  done  it  in  self  defence  and  in  talking  about  the  Duk  Lake  fight,  he  said  he  had 
gone  there  in  person,  that  after  Major  Crozier  had  tired  the  first  volley  he  re])lied  and  he 
urged  his  men  to  fire,  first  in  the  name  of  (!od  the  Father,  .secondly  in  the  name  of  Ciod 
tlie  Son  and  thirdly  in  the  name  God  the  Hojj'  Ghost,  and  repeated  his  commands  in  that 
[manner  thoughout  the  battle.  ^^  1 

-     Q.  That  is  what  he  told  you  about  the  engagement? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  else  did  he  say? — A.  He  spoke  of  the  peofde  in  the  town  and  the  settlers 
generally.  He  said  he  had  no  desire  to  molest  thein,  that  this  (pnirrel  was  with  the 
goveriMuent  and  the  police  and  the  Hudson  Bay  Co.  He  wished  the  settlers  to  hold 
aloof  from  taking  up  arms  in  opposition  to  liim,  and  he  said  if  tliey  held  aloof  he  would 


{Tin 


77 


prevent  the  Intlians  from  joining  them, 
himself. 


If  tliey  kept  aloof  he  was  to' oppo.se  the  police 


-A.   He  gave  me  a  letter 


Q.  Did  he  ask  you  to  do  anything  in  reference  to  that  ? 
to  the  people  generally  stating  so. 

Q.   What  have  you  done  with  that  letter  ?— A.   I  have  destroyed  it; 

Q.   It  i.s  not  now  in  existence? — A.  No.  \, 

Q.  Did  you  read  the  letter  ? — A.  Ye.s. 

Q.  What  Xiis  in  it,  what  was  the  purport  of  it? — A.  To  the  effect  that  if  the 
people  wouhl  hold  aloof  and  remain  neutral,  that  he  would  not  l)ring  in  the  Indians,  and 
also  to  the  effect  at  the  last  part  of  it,  that  if  they  did  hold  aloof  he  believed  tliev  would 
celebrate  the  I'-lth  May,  but  that  if  they  did  not,  the  Indians  would  come  in  and  jiarties 
from  across  the  boundary  and  the  result  would  be  they  would  celebrate  the  fourth  of 
July,  .some  thing  like  that. 

Q.  Wliat  was  lie  going  to  do  with  Prince  Albert? — A.  He  said  he  would  give 
thein  a  week  to  decide  whether  they  would  accept  his  terms  or  not. 

Q.  And  in  the  event  of  their  not  accepting  his  terms  ?  A.  Tlutt  he  would  take  the 
place.  He  .said  Prince  Albert  was  the  key  of  the  position  and  that  he  must  attack  it. 
He  said  that  if  the  .settlers  did  not  stay  at  home  but  kept  in  town  with  the  police,  he 
wpaiiTiittack  them  all. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  arrange  witli  to  get  the  bodies  of  the  slained  ?-^A.  We  requested 
Hrst  some  assistance  from  him,  tliat  some  of  the  Half  breeds  would  go  with  us  to  remove' 
them,  but  there  was  some  discussion  about  it,  and  when  they  learned  that  major  Crozier 
was  suspicious  of  them,  he  refused  assistance,  and  the  French  Half-bieeds  also  he  refused 
to  let  go  ;  in  fact,  1  l)elieve  the  suggestion  came  through  some  of  them  in  the  first  place, 
and  in  conse(|uence  we  had  to  go  and  remove  them  ourselves. 

il.  Who  was  in  charge  there,  who  were  you  taking  orders  from  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A. 
Mr.  Kiel. 

il.   Who  was  gi\ing  orders  ? — A.   Kiel. 

Q.  Anybody  else  ? — A.  Nobody  else.  ^ 

(i.  Then  you  went  to  get  the  bodies  ? — A.   Yes.  i        ' 

(j.  I  believe  he  showed  you  the  bodies  that  had  been  slain  on  their  side  ? — A.  Yes 
he  did,  just  as  we  were  leaving.  ,  « 

Q.  Then  you  made  another  visit  within  the  rebel  lines  ? — A.  Yes,  about  a  week 
later. 

Q.  What  was  the  occasion  of  that  visit  ? — A.  1  heari}  from  a  Half-breed  named 
Toussaint  Bussieres  that  Albert  Monkman  and  1 5  men  were  in  cliarge  of  the  })risoners  at 
Fort  Uarlton,  and  that  my  brother  was  with  theiu,  and  they  left  them  across  theisouth 
branch  to  attack  general  Middleton  and  I  thought  it  would  be  a  good  opportunity  to  get 
my  brother  away.  I  knew  Monkman,  and  I  thought  he  would  give  him  up.  I  obtained  a 
pass  from  Irvine  and  went  after  my  brother. 

Q.  What  did  you  tind  when  you  got  there  ? — A.  I  went  to  Carlton  first  and  then 
to  Duck  Lake.  I  found  Carlton  was  luirned  down  and  I  found  Duck  Lake  in  ashes.  I 
went  to  Batoche  antl  arrived  there  on  the  Tuesday  after. 

Q.  What  is  the  date  ? — A.  About  the  tirst  of  April  ;  no,  about  the  4th  of  April 
probalily. 

Q.  You  reached  Batoche  when  ? — A.  That  was  some  time  on  the  Tuesday. 

Q.   When  had  you  left  Prince  Albert  ? — A.   On  the  Saturday,  ' 


78     • 

Q.  That  was  the  fourth  of  April  ? — A.  I  readied  Batoche  on  the  fourth  of  April, 
on  the  Tuesday  following.  r 

Q.  That  would  he  the  seventli  April  ?— A.  I  suppose  so. 

(J.   Then  did  you  see  the  prisoner  after  you  got  there  ? — A.   Yes,  I  did. 

Q.    Had  you  any  conversation  with  him  ? — A.    I  had. 

Q.  This  was  wliere  ? — A.   On  the  South  side  of  the  river. 

q.  The  day  y..u  got  there  "vvaa  the  day  of  the  tight  ?— A.   The  day  I  gotithere  1 

,Q.  .You  had  a  talk  with  him  ahout  your  brother  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Did  he  say  wImI  Wius  the  matter  witii  your  brother  ? — A.  He  said  lie  was  siik, 
he  ^aid  his  iniiid  was  attVoted,  he  said  it  was  a  judgment  on  him  for  opi)Osing  him. 

Q.   Vie  seemed  to  know  his  mind  was  affected  '.' — A.   Yes. 

Q.   Did  you  tiiid  his  mind  was  atlected  ? — A.    I  did. 

Q.  How  were  they  considering  liim,  as  a  sane  or  insane  man  ? — A.  Allowing  him 
liis  own  way,  but  they  had  a  guard  over  him. 

(^.    Did  Riel  s]ieak  as  to  what  was  best   to  do   with  him  or  what  they   were  doing 
jwitli   liini  ? — A.    Yes.  he  tliouglit  he  would  improve  there    but    1    applied  for  perniission 
tofcet  him  away.    Kiel    said  he  was  getting   along   xeiy    jiicily   there  and  that  he  would 
IHcHJer. 

Q.   He  did  not  let  ymi  take  him  away  ? — A.    No,  he  refused  to  do  so. 

Q.  Then  did  youiiiiike  any  formal  application  to  get  him  away  ? — A.  I  did  to  the 
--(Jouncil. 

t^.    And  it  was  .sefu.sed,  I  believe  '! — A.    Yes,  it  was   refused. 

Q.  What  kept  you  in  tlie  camp  ? — A.  They  refu.sed  to  let  me  go  or  my  brother 
eitlier. 

Q.  (iiV^ing  any  nason  ? — A.  Yes,  I  iieanl  a  discussion.  I  was  upstairs  in  the 
council  room,  and  1  liaii  .-spoken  to  Albert  Monkman  tfi  speak  in  my  favour  and  I  heard 
tlieiii  dis.ussing  the- matter.  Of  cour.se  they  spoke  in  French  and  I  did  not  understand, 
but  Monkman  was  speaking  in  Ciee.  Riel  came  down  to  the  room  and  commenced  to 
eat,  and  while  lie  was  eatiiiLT  Monkman  kept  on  talking,  and  he  rushed  upstairs  and 
attacked  Monkman,  ai.id  in  the  course  of  his  remarks  he  aciused  him  of  not  doing  liis 
duty  with  the  Knglish  [lalf-breeds.  that  he  had  not  brfmght  them  up  with  "JO  men  he 
had  sent  for  them.  Monkman  defended  himself  and  there  was  a  discussion  about  it. 
^Monkman  said  tlie  reason  he  did  not  bring  tlii-in  was  beiau.se  one  man  said  he  would  if 
another  would,  and  Riel  told  him  he  had  gi\en  him  these  20  armed  man  to  brinj;  the 
leading  men  of  the  Eiijiish  Half-liieeds  by  force. 

:    Q.   And  what  Riel  was  complaining  about  was  that  the  orders  had  not  been  obeyed  ? 
—A.   Yes.  '        . 

I  Q.  And  Monkiiian  was  excu.sing  liimself  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  yoU  hear  any  di.^cussion  after  your  arrival  there  as  to  what  they_should  do, 
as  to  any  places  that  shoulil  be  attacked  ? — A,  They  talked  about  attacking  Prince 
Albert ;  but  1  believe  they  were  waiting  for  the  Indians  to  join  them  in  greater  numbers. 

(^.  .Had  they  Indians  there  ? — A.  They  had  Indians  there. 

Q.  Ac  this  time  ahiout  the  8th  of  April,  could  you  form  any  idea  as  to  the  number 
of  men  under  arms  ? — A.  I  could  not  say,  I  was  told  when  I  Hist  arrived  there  they  had 
ISOO,  but  I  did  not  believe  it.  They  said  they  were  in  liouses  near  by.  Afterwards  I 
was  told  by  English  HaJf-breeds  that  there  was  only  about  700. 


79 

Q.  TIhmi  do  you  remember  aii  occasion  of  a  false  alarm,  do  you  rememlier  anvthiiiw 
lieing  done  by  Kiel  on  that  ucuiision  '! —  \.  On  one  occasion  I  i'einenil»v;r  he  rushed  to  the 
church  and  lirought  out  the  crucihx  and  ran  around  among  the  liouses  calliu"  out  the 
men  and  insisting  all  should  come,  and  I  saw  hiSg  go  out  and  choose  the  ground  upon 
which  to  defend  tiiemselves,  expecting  an  attack  from  the  Ilundioldt- trajl. 

(J.  He  went  out  and  arrangeil  the  ground  and  warned  the  men  ? — A.  Yes  he  ur"ed 
them  all  to  fight  and  made  preparations  for  the  defence. 

Q.  Did  he  ask  you  to  do  anything  for  him  ? — A.  Yes,  the  first  night  I  was  there  he 
intimated  he  would  like  me  to  write  some  letters  to  the  papers  and  place  a  "(kkI  cons- 
truction on  liis  acts. 

Q.  Wanting  you  to  write  to  the  Eastern  papers  ? — \.  Yes,  to  place  a  favourable 
construction  on  his  action  in  taking  up  arms.  \    ■ 

Q.  Do  you  reniiMnber  anything,  any  particular  matter  he  wanted  ? — A.  I  rcfu.sed  to  do 
so  at  first,  because  he  had  not  allowed  me  my  liberty  and  had  taken  away  nfv  brotl^er.  In 
my  a[)plication  to  the  council,  I  said  unless  they  showed  me  some  consideration  thev 
could  not  expect  any  consideration  from  mt^  in  writing  letters  After  the  Fish  Creek  ti"Lt 
I  though  I  he  tiling  was  going  to  last  all  sunnner,  and  I  commenced  to  write  for  him. 

Q.  Then  do  you  remend)er  Kiel  a.sking  you  to  write  any  particular  matter  with 
reference  to  himself  I — A.  Yes,  he  claimed  that  he  had  applied  to  the  Ciovernmeut  for  an 
indenniity  tlirough  D.  H.  Mucdonald,  and  in  refily  the  (Jovernment  had  made  use 
of  some  e.\]iressions. 

Q.    What  indemnity  liad  he  applied  for  through  .Macdonald  .'     A.   For  ;j.'),000  dollars 

Q.  For  what  .-  —  A.  For  suppo.sed  lo.sses  through  being  outlawed  and  his  property 
being  conli-scated. 

Q.   That  was  the  money  he  wanted  from  the  Dominion  tlovernment  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  He  did  not  tell  you  how  he  made  up  the  account  ? — A.  No.  He  claimed  iu  all,  his 
claim  against  the  Dominion  tiovernment  amounted  to  100,000  dollars. 

Q.  Did  you  know  from  him  anything  as  to  his  personal  motives  in  taking  up  arihs  ? — 
A.  Yes,  lie  disclosed  his  personal  motives  to  me  on  this  occasion  He  became  very  nuicli 
tjkcited  anil  angry,  and  attacked  the  English  and  the  English  constitution,  and  exhibited 
the  greatest  hatred  for  the  English  and  he  showed  his  motive  was  one  of  revenge  more 
than  anytliing  else.  \ 

Q.  l!-evi'nge  for  what  ? — A.  For  his  supposed  ill-treatment,  his  [iroperty  being  con- 
fiscated an<l  he  being  outlawed. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  anything  aliout  the  Half  breed  struggle? — A.  Yes,  he  spoke  of 
their  grievances.  \     . 

Q.  In  his  communications  with  you  whose  grievances  were  the  most  prominent? — 
A.  I  think  his  own  particular  troubles  were  the  most  prominent,  of  course  he  spoke  of 
the   Half-br.eds  trouble.;. 

Q.  Were  you  put  iu  close  confinement  at  any  time? — A.  Shortly  after  this 
outburst,  he  jilaced  me  in  confinement  with  my  brother. 

Q.  Had  you  refused  to  write  for  him  in  this  way  ?  V.  Y(  s.  and  it  was  in  reference 
to  discussing  that  that  he  became  e.Kcited,  and  it  was  shortly  after  that  lie  placed  ine  in 
close  contincinent. 

Q.  You  were  kept  with  the  other  prisoners? — -V.  Xo.  I  wa^  kejit  by  myself  with 
niv  brother.   They  would  not  allow  me  to  communicate  with  the  other  prisoners. 

Q.  When  you  were  placed  in  close  confinement  had  you  any  conversation  with  him  ? 
A.   He  came  in  on  one  occasion  and  accused  me  of  trying  to  incite  an  English  Half- 


J 


,    ■  I        .  ^  ■  «o 

•  ~     .   !  ■     '    ■ 

breed  named  Bruce  to  desert.      He  said  I  had  Ijeeii  speaking  witli  liim,  and    if  lie  could 

prove  I  had  been  inciting   him,  it  would^'O  hard  with  me. 

Q.  Had  you  any  other  interview  witli  him  while  you  were  in  dose  confinement  ?^ 
A.  Not  just  then.  Shortly  after  General  Middleton  ajiproaclied  IJatoche,  he  placed  us 
in  the  cellar  o£  George  Fisher's  house.  Tiie  first  day  he  took  nu-  u]*  to  attend  to  the 
wounded  in  case  there  should  he  any  wounded,  and  he  had  some  talk  then  in  regard  to  the 
wounded,  and  he  asked  me  if  1  would  attend  to  them  as  well  as  if  nothing  had  happened 
1  let  ween  us  ? 

"Q.  Did  you  attend  to  the  wounded  ? — A.  No,  they  suspected  I  was  going  to  desert, 
and  they  put  me  hack  in  the  cellar  that  night. 

Q.   Did  anything  material  happen  tiU  the  1:2th  May? — A.   No. 

Q.  What  happened  then  1-^A.  On  the  12th  of  May  a  Half-breed  opened  the  cellar 
and  called  out  and  said  Riel  was  wounded,  I  came  up  to  the  council  room  and  jire.sently 
Kiel  entered  with  Astley,  and  as  soon  as  he  came  in  he  told  meMiddleton  was  approaching 
and  if  he  massacred  the  families,  he  would  massacre  my  brother  and  the  rest  of  the  pri- 
oiiers  and  he  wished  to  send  lioth  of  us  with  messages  to  Middleton. 

Q.   Were  you  to  deliver  the  message  ? — A.   I  was. 

Q.   Did  you  see  Riel  write  the  message  ? — A.   Yes,  I  did.  ^ 

Q.   Is  this  the  message  (produced)  ? — A.   I  believe  that  is  the  message. 

Q.  By  whom  was  is  written '! — A.  Writen  by  Kiel  (The  message  alluded  to  is  exhibit  2) 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  you  did  with  this  message  ? — A.  I  believe  I  deli\ered  it 
to  General  Middleton. 

Q.  You  don't  know  ? — A.   I  don't  remember  the  fact,  but  I  belie\e  f  did. 

Q.   With  that  message  you  left  the  camp  ?-^A.   I  did. 

Q.  The  rebel  camp  ?— A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  I  believe  you  di<l  not  go  back  ? — A.  I  did  not  go  back.  I  did  not  go  directly 
to  Middleton  because  he  changed  his  mind  at  the  last. 

/Q.  Who  changed  his  mind  ? — A.  Riel.  He  took  us  down  about  a  jnile  and  a  hal 
and  he  ordered  me  to  go  to  Lepine's  house  and  wave  a  flag  in  front  of  it.   ' 

Q.  Just  to  go  back  for  a  moment,  did  you  ever  see  the  prisoner  armed  ? — A.  I  did 
on  one  occasion. 

Q.   When  was  that  occasion  ? — A.   It  was  some  time  after  the  Fish  Creek  fight. 

(^.    Who  was  in  charge  at  Batoche?  —A.   Riel. 

t^.  Who  instructed  the  movement  of  the  armed  men  ? — A.  Well  Gabriel  Dumont 
instructed  them  immediately,  but  Riel  was  over  him. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  he  did  on  the  occasion  of  the  Fish  Creek  fight  ? — A.  He 
went  out  with  IHOj  men  the  night  before  and  returned  with  20,  thinking  there  might  be 
an  atack  on  Batoohe  from  I 'rince- Albert  or  Humboldt  or  from  the  other  side  of  the  river, 
as  he  knew  (Jeneral  Middieton's  forces  were  divided. 

(J.   You  saidyou  kiiow  the  handwriting  of  the  prisoner  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Look  at' this  document  dated  St.  Antoine  21st  Marcli  1885,  in  whose  hand- 
writing is  that  Vr — A.   Laxns  Riel's  (Document  put  in,  exhibit  5) 

Q.   Is  all  this  writing  on  the  third  page  his  ? — A.   Yes  it  is  all  his  writing. 
Q.   These  signatures  are  in  Garnot's  writing  ? — A.   Yes,  tliey  seem  to  be  ( Jarnot's. 
Q.   In  whose  handwriting  is  this  document  ? — A.   Louis  Riels  (I)ocunient  put  in 
exhibit  6). 


81 

Q.  In  tliis  paper  in  the  writing  of  Louis  Riel? — A.  Yes,  tliat  is  his  writing  (Docu- 
ment put  in,  E\.  7). 

Q.   Are  the  two  papers  attached  here  in  Kiel's  hand  writing  ?^ A.   Yes.  (Document  . 
put  in,  Ex.  S). 

Q.    Is  tills  document  in  Uiol's   liandwriting  ? — A.    It  is.   (Document  put  in,  Kx.  9). 

Q.  Perliaps  you  can  tell  me  the  meaning  of  the  word  ex  ovile  ? — A.  It  means  one 
■of  tlie  Hock. 

Q.  Is  thi.s  letter  in  the  hand  writing  of  Riel? — A.  It' is,  with  the  exception  of  a 
piece  of  back-hand,  which  appears  to  lie  in  Philip  (Jarnot's  writing.  (Document  put  in, 
Ex.  10.) 

Q.    In  who.se  writing  is  this  ; — A.   Kiel's.     (Ex.  II.)  , 

y.   Is  Ex.  12  in  Kiel's  writing  ,'— A.   Ye.s. 

Q.   Ex.  1:5  and  ?2x.  14  are  both  in  Kiel's  handwriting! — A.    Yes,  it  is  all  Kiel's. 

(j.  Are  these  five  sheets,  coinpi'ising  Ex.  15,  in  Kiel's  writing  ] — A.  They  are  all  ia 
the  handwriting  of  the  prisonei .  > 

i-l-  Ex.  10  is  in  the  handwriting  (if  the  prisoner  ? — A.   Yes. 

(l-  And  Ex.  17  is  in  his  handwriting  .' — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Ex.  Ifi,  is  this  document  in  his  handwriting] — A.   It  is  all  but  the  last  signature. 

Q.  E\.  I'J,  is  that  in  the  han(lwriting\of  Kiel! — A.   Yes. 


<i.  It  is  Kiel's  siguature  tliat  is  to  tli^s  document  !— A.  Yes.  (Document  put  iu 
Ex.  -M.) 

Q.   The  liody  of  the  writing,  is  that  Kiel's  !— A.   Xo.  , 

(^.    l>ut  the  signature  is  ! — A.    Yes. 

Examined  by  .Mk.  FiTzi'ATUirK. 

(^.  Yiin  kninv  nothing  mon-  of  the  documents  that  have  been  shown  you  except  that 
you  know  they  aie  in  tile  handwriting  of  Kiel  ] — A.   That  is  all  I  know. 

Q.   You  don't  know  if  they  ever  left  Kiel's  possession  or  not  ?  — A.   I  don't. 

Q.  You  said,  at  the  beginning  of  yofir  deposition,  that  you  were  aware  of  a  certain 
amount  of  aL'itatiou  going  on  iu  tlie  Saskatchewan  district  (luring  last  autumn  and  fall? 
—A.    I  (lid. 

Q.  Will  you  explain  the  nature  of  that  agitation  .' — A.  That  agitation  was  for  pro- 
vincial rigiits  piincipally,  also  for  Half-breeds'  claims,  and  also  against  duties  and  such 
tilings  as  tiiat.      \^'e  felt  the  duties  onerous, 

Q.   A  purely  political  agitation  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   You  were  in  sympathy  witli  the  agitation  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  were  aware  Riel  was  brought  into  the  country  for  the  purpose  of  taking 
part  in  the  agitation? — A.  He  was  lirought  to  this  country  on  account  of  his  supposed 
knowledge  of  tlie  -Manitoba  Treat}'. 

Q.  Tlie  people  of  the  Saskatchewan  district  were  of  opinion  that  Kiel  could  be  useful 
to  tiieni  in  connection  with  the  agitation  ? — A.  Well,  he  was  brought  in  principally  by 
the  Half-breeds.      The    Canadians    knew    nothing    about  it  till  he  was  very  nearly  here. 

Q.  Almost  the  whole  of  the  people  in  that  district  had  joined  together  for  the  pur-- 
pose  of  this  agitation  ? — A.  They  liad. 

6 


Q.  Tluvt  a;{itation  had  been  going  on  for  a  conskliirahle  length  of  time? — A.   For 
some  time.  ^  , 

Q.   Can  you  say  for  al)out  how  long? — A.    Five  or  six  years,  or  longer. 

Q.   Did  you  attend  any.  meetings  held    )iy   Kiel  ? — A.    I   attended  the  meeting  in 
Prince  Albert. 

Q.   You  were  i>ri"s<'iit  during  tiiat  meeting? — .V.   Duriiij;'  ilie  greater  jiart  of  it. 

Q.   You  heard  what  Kiel  said  ?— A.    I  did. 

Q.   What    date  was  tliat  meeting  held  ?  — A.    I  could    not  say  exactly,   some   time 
in  June  or  J  iiiv. 


Q.    At  his  first  arrival  ?      A.   Yes.    .. 


/ 


(^.  He  stated  lie  wished  tlie  movement  to  l>e  entirely  n  constitutional  movement  ? — 
A.  Purely  a  constitutional  movement,  he  .said  if  they  i-iiiild  not  ijet  wiiat  tlicy  a<.'itated 
for  in  tivf  years,  to  agitata  for  five  yeai's-nnori',  tliat  cnnstitutional  ai^itation  would  ^et 
what  they  wanted. 

•  Q.  You  knew  he  continued  assisting  in  the  agitation  up  to  the  time  of  tlie  ditiicuity 
in  Miivh  '—A.  He  was  there  as  a  sort  of  Halt'-liieed  aiUiser  priniiiially,  he  was  not  a 
nienibt.'r  of  tlie  committee,  liut  lie  was  there  in  the  inpacity  of  llalf-lireed  adviser. 

{}.  Dicfyiiu  at  any  time  hear  he  wished  to  resort  to  any  means  other  than  cf.nstitu- 
tional  up  to  March  ?  —A.   Notliiiig.  , 

Q.  You,  beiiiu:  an  active  participator,  would  naturally  iiave  heard  of  any  such  inten- 
tion if  it  had  existed  '. — A.   Certainly. 

Q.   There  was  no  stich  niii\  cnient  up  to  tliat  time  ? — A.    No. 

Q.  After  the  1st  of  March  when  did  you  tirst  see  Kiel  ? — A.  When  I  went  to  I)uck 
Lake. 

H.  When  had  you  seen  him  prc\  ious  to  tiiat  time  ?  -  A.  Some,  tinie_  in  .laniiaiy,  he 
'Mas  in  the  town. 

Q.    Had  you  conversation  with  him  then  ?  — .\.    I  had. 

Q.  Did  you  speak  toiliim  about  the  niovement  ? — A.  I  dar-e  say  I  didj,  but  I  cannot 
j^ieniber. 

Q.  Did  he,  at  that  time,  say  anything  to  you  that  would  lead  you  to  believe  that  he 
iptended  to  do  anything  that  was  not  a  constitutional  agitation  ? — A.  Nothing  of  the 
kind.     -He  never  referred  to  anything  that  was  not  constitutional  agitation. 

Q.  At  tlie  discussion  you  had  with  him  previous  to  March  last,  it  always  appeared 
to  you  that  the  ordinary  means  adopted  by  the  settlers  were  adopted  by  him  ? — .\.  Cer- 
tainly. 

i-      Q.   When  you  saw  him  at  Duck  Lake  you  spoke  to  liim  alxiot  your  brother  and  he 
told  you  your  brother  had  become  insane  ? — A.    He  did. 

Q.  He  tolil  you  he  had  become  insane  because  he  had  opposed  Riel,  and  that  he  was 
punished  by  (Jod  for  his  opposition  to  Riel  ? — A.   That  is  what  he  said. 

Q.  You  never  heard  such  a  remark  liy  Riel  previous  to  tliat  time  in  any  of  your 
other  conversations  with  him  ? — A.   No. 

Q.   iHd  it  strike  you  as  a  peculiar  remark  ? — A.   No,  I  don't  think  so. 

•    -Q.   You   tliou.i,dit    it  was  ()uite   natural   such   a  thing  »>liould   occur  ?     A.    1   did'nt 
agree  with  it,  but  I  thouglit  it  was  a  very  nice  explanation  on  his  part  to  make. 

Q.   He  told  you  at  that  time  the  jirie.sts  were  entirely  opposed  to  him  in  the  move- 


> 


83 

ment  and  were  eiuirety  opposed  to  the  interests  of  the  North-West  settlement  ? — A.  No, 
liut  }»•  siiid  they  were  opposed  to  liiiii.  , 

■  Q.    He  f,'»ve  you  then  to  understand  the  priests  were  entirely    wrong  and   he   was 
entirely  right  ?-  -A.  .Certainly. 

Q.  In  fact  they  did  not  know  anything  they  were  talking  about  and  he  knew  it  all? 
— A.    He  said  they  werr  working  only  for  their  own   interest. 

i}.  I>id  he  e\|ilain  to  you  what  his  intentions  were  as  to  the  division  of  the  Terri- 
tories, what  he  intended  doing  wlien  he  succeeded  in  chasing  the  Canadians  out  of  the 
eountiy  ?  -A.  Some  time,  proliaKly  when  1  was  ]>risoner,  I  lieard  him  talk  of  di\  idiui.' the 
country  in  seven  or  gi\  iiig  a  seventh  nf  the  proceeds  to  assist  the  Poles,  a  seventh  to  the 
Half-lireeds  and  a  seventh  t<i  the  Indians. 

0-   Some  more  to  tlu^  Hungarians  ] — A.   Yes,  and  soon. 

t,».  Yiiu  said  when  you  were  IJit'l's  pri.soner,  that  it  was  after  the  17th  and  l^th  of 
March  Vdu  heard  him  discussing  the  future  division  which  he  intened  making  for  the 
Territories  if  he  got  rill  of  the  Canadians  ^- A.  Something  to  that  ett'ect,  hut  I  caiinot 
reiuendiei-  e.vactly  what  it  was. 

(}.  You  heard  him  talkimr  of  di\  iding  the  country  intfi  diti'erent  parts  .' — A.  1  un- 
derstood it  was  one-sex  eul  li  of  I  iic  proceeds  of  the  sale  of  the  land  and  ta.xes  would  l>e 
given  to  these  diirerelil  ]ieople, 

y.  I  till  he  then  say  that  he  expected  any  assistance  from  these  people.' — A.  No, 
it  sefimed  to  lie  a  .scheme  of  emigration  more  than  anything  else. 

ij.  His  plan  as  he  then  unfolded  it,  did  it  appear  to  he  in  conformity  with  the  plan 
you  had  heard  him  discussing  at  the  imhlic  meetings  at  which  you  assi-sted  .'--A.  Oh! 
no,  a!t<igether  ditlerent. 

Q.  Will  you  look  at  this  document  called  the  foreiirn  policy  <locument.  and  say  if 
you  can  see  anything  on  it  which  would  hear  out  that  intention  to  divide  up  the  country 
(witness  looks  at  exliiliit   l."i).'      A.    Yes. 

Q.  I'oyou  recoifnize  the  handwriting  as  that  of  Louis  I{iel]--A.  It  is  scrilihled 
so  that  it  is  dillicult  to  s.\v. 

if.  What  is  on  the  otlier  side  of  the  sheet  is  certainly  in  his  handwriting  !  —A.  Yes, 
it  certainly  is. 

.  ''  . 

(,>.    And  is  the  ink  on  the  other  side  not  the  same  as  that  .' — A.    1  think  it  is. 

Q.    .\nd  ilon't  vou  think  the  handwriting  is  also  the  same? — A.   1  eouhl  iV«t  say. 

(J.  To  the  liest  of  your  knowledge,  does  it  not  represent  Kiel's  handwriting.' — A.  I 
think  it  is. 

Q.    liiel  ex|ilained  to  30U  what  was  meant  hy  the  word  exovede  ? — A.   He  did. 

Q.   That  it  was  meant  to  convey  that  he  was  simply  one  of  the  flock  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  That  h(!  had  no  independent  authority,  hut  simply  acted  as  one  of  the  others  ? — 
A.   Yes,  it  was  simjily  an  aflectation  of  humility.  ; 

Q.  You  are  aware  that  all  the  documents  signed  l>y  him,  as  far  as  you  know,  liore 
the  word  exo\ede  /A.   The  most  of  them. 

Q.  You  had  several  conversations  with  lliel  after  the  conversation  aliout  your 
hrother,  (ui  religious  matters? — A.  After  I  Was  taken  prisoner,  but  nothing  much  on 
religious  matters;  he  used  to  talk  about  his  new  religion,  about  leaving  the  errors  of  the 
Church  of  Rome  out  and  adopting  a  more  liberal  plan. 

Q.  He  explained  to  you  his  new  religion  ? — A.  He  explained  it  as  a  new  liberal 
religion,  he  claimed  that  the  Pope  had  no  right  in  this  country. 


-  '  •         I  S4  ■         ■  ~ 

Q.  Did  lie  coudescplul  to  inform  you  as  to  tlie  person  in  wlioin  liis  aiitliority  should 
l»o  invested  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  You  bejieved  fmui  him  tliere  was  some  pei-son  in  this  country  who  would  pro- 
baWy  take  the  position  of  Pope  in  tliis  country  ? — A.  I  tliink  very  likely  he  intended 
himself  to  take  tlie  jmsition,  that  the  Pope  was  in  his  way. 

.    Q.  This  took  pla,ce  ^fter  you  were  made  a  prisoner,  this  conversation  about  the  new 
religion  ? — A.    I  think  so,  and  he  also  spoke  about  it  at  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  All  the  conversations  you  ever  had  with  him  in  connection  with  this  jioliticul 
movement  never  in  any  way  refeired  to  tiiis  new  relij;ion  ? — A.  No,  he  spoke  of  religion 
but  merely  as  ordinary  men  do. 

.  Q.  The  tirst  time  you  heard  of  this  new  religion  and  these  new   theories  of  I'eligious 
questions  was  after  the  rebellion  had  begun  ? — A.  Yes. 


-C■E^"KitAI.   FifKOERicK  "MiDOLKTiiN  swoi^ii,  exaiiiiiictl  1  ly  !M  i(,   Robinson. 
O.     You  !tre  u  ^lajoy-Oeiit-ruI   in  lier  -Aliijest v'm   servic*^  ?   --A.    Yt-s, 


foivp. 


*^.     AVhiit    position  tJo  you   Iiohl    in   CSiiiii;lii  ?  -     A.     1    iiiii    L-oniiii;iii(iiii\t;  tlie   Itoiiif  niilitui 


1^.    Wliere  do  ytiu  i-esitU-  ?       A.'  *  Uiawa. 

Q.    \V»»i'e  yf>u  t-allfd  upon  for  sei*\ie*e  in  lliese  Tei-ritories  at  any  thin 


A.    I 


0.  Wlieu  >  -A.  1  think  it  was  on  the  TM'A  Maicli.  I  was  SPiit  for,  the  '2'Mx\  .Miucli, 
by  Mr.  Caron,  and  told  I  should  have  to  lea^  e  at  once  for  tin-  North-We.'^t. 

Q.   Mr.  Cai'on  is  minister  ii(  Militia  ? — A.    Yes. 

(^.    Wbat  reason  wa.s  i^ivt^n  you  ?--.\.    Ife  ti»ld  iiie  they    bad    new  .s    u  hii-li    Wiis    of  a 

veKy  liad  cliaracter,  tliat  a  lising  iniirht  take  place,  and  I  was  to  jjo  at  once  and  he  asked 
■when  I  could  go. 

().■  When  did  you  stiirt  ?   -.\.    About  two  hours  afterwards. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  tirst  ? — A. \l  weTlj.  straight  to  WinnijH^g.  <  tn  the  way  to 
Winnipeg  I  think  it  was  on  the  train  I  \eard  of  the  Duck  Ijjike  battU-.  When  i  got  to 
Winnipeg,  I  found  the  KOtli  was  almost  re&dy  to  march,  that  a  small  detachment  had 
been  sent  to  (^u'appelle  and  that  the  W^^JipPg  I5attery  was  reatly,  and  then  I  heard 
more  news  abml  Col.  Irvine  lieiuf;  ii/ffaid  to  go  to  Batoilie  as  it  was  in  the  hands  of  the 
Half-breeds,  and  I  heard  a  coiilirmatioki  of  the  Duck  Lake  aflair.  I  went  to  the  Town 
Hall  and  inspected  the  '.JOtli  and  that  ek  ening  I  went  on  the  train  with  the  90th  and  went 
straight  to  Qu'AppcIle  without  stopping. 

<^.  jlow  long  did  you  remain  at  tiu'Appelle  ?^-A.  I  cannot  exactly  renuMuber.  I 
was  there  waiting  for  the  formation  of  the  commissariat. 

Q.   You  left  Qti'Apiielle  and  proceeded  where  ? — A.    Fort  Qu'Appelle. 

Q.   And  from  tSiat  you  went  to  Fi.sh  Creek  ? — A.   Yes.  " 

Q.  That  was  tile  first  occasion  on  which  you  met  the  opposing  rebels'?-  -A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  force  was  under  your  command  when  you  got  to  Fish  Creek  ? — A.  When 
I  got  to  F^sh  Creek  I  had  the  'JOth,  I  had  previously  divided  my  forces  and  |uit  the  half 
of  them  on  the  other  side  of  the  river,  I  had  under  my  immediate  command  the  itOth, 
the  so  called  "A"  Battery,  with  two  guns,  Boulton's  scouts  and  I  think  that  was   all. 

Q.  How  many  in  all  ?^.\.  On  paper  there  would  be  aboulj  420  or  450. 

I  Q.   That  was  your  force  at  Fish  Creek  ?- — A.   Yes,  as  far  as  I  can  remember. 


/ 


85 


/ 


Q.  Ami  how  iiiaiiy  men  were  lost  there  on  your  side  ? — A.  I  think  .we  had,  well  I 
forget  the  exact  numl»er.     We  lost  nine  or  ten  killed  and  forty  wounded. 

Q.  Tliat  was  on  the  ■24tli  Ai-ril  ?— A.   The  24th  April. 

Q.  You  remained  there  for  some,  short  time? — A.  Until  I  could  f;et  rid  of  the 
wounded.  We  had  a  larj^e  number  of  wounded  and  I  could  not  leave  them  there.  I  had 
not  sutHcieiit  forces  to  leave  to  protect  them  and  1  -was  ol>lii;ed  to  wait,  and  I  also 
wanted  oats,  but  the  {irincipal  thinsj  was  to  <,'et  rid  of  the  wounded. 

Q.  Then  you' proceeded  to  Batoche  ? — A.  Yes.  , 

Q.  Wlien  did  you  arrive  before  Hatoche  t — A.  About  9  niilesf  fronr  l>atoche  I 
struck  thf  trail  for  Hatoche  on  the  8tli  and  on  the  moininj;  of  the  9th,  marched  straight 
on  to  Hatoche  leaviiij;  m\-  camp  standiu;;. 

(^.  And  when  did  the  iMiif.igemiMit  bei,'iu  ?  .\.  On  the  9th,  the  instant  we  got 
there.  , 

Q.    |)i>  yon    iiieiui    yi'U    wii;-    liicil    i>ii    :tliii<>st    on   your    i^cttiui,'  thf-ro  ?       .V.    ( >n    our 

arrival  \\v  caiiit^  on  \\w  top  on  llit;  iiliitt^iiu  iiiiil  \vr  .saw  a  Ihi^t  ii.s>eiably  oi  i«kii,  and  we 

opeiK-cl   Hi'c  ?  I 

Q.    'Pliiit  Wiis  tlik'  Ix^i^iiiiiliiy;  oi    tlio  €*iiix;»i;eiiieiit  ?  —  A.    Yes. 

U^  Th«  finj,'ai,'pnient  contiiitii'd  till  the  iL'tli?  -.\.  WliPii  liatoAe  was  takwi. 
/v.  I  lielei\e  you  had  some  iifi,'otiatiou.s  on  the  l-'th  '—A.  Ye.s,  on  the  12th  I  had 

moved  on   tlie  left  of  the  enemy,    f  mo\-e<l  to  th*;  riijht  in  order  to  cU•a^v' tTieir  attention  awjiv 

iiiwl  I  left  (inlois  with  my  sftfond  in  commaiul  that  while  J  was  away,  as  soon  as  he  heard 

liriiii^,  tliiit  lie  Wiis    ti»    i-etukt*    tins    ol<l    jwi.siti<^»ii   \v'e    luitl    tlie    j>ro\  ious    chiv,   iiiul    a,-;   I   tlifw- 

the  enemy  ort'im  the  ri.;,'lif,  he  was  to  press  on  the  left.    1  went  otl'  with  the  cavaliy  and 

guns  .so  as  to  make  as  much  show  as  possihle,  and  I  kcpi  tlie  enemy  engaged  some  little 
time.  [n  tlie  nii<ldie  of  our  engageineut  there,  which  was  (|;iite  at  l6ng  bowls,  I  .'law  a 
man  galloping  across  the  plains  fiom  tim  direction  of  the  enemy  with  a  flag.  He  came 
ch).sei-  and  it  turned  (mt  to  t.e  Mr.   .\stley.    He  handed  nn>  a  letter  and  he  .said  "  1  am  one 

of  the  pris(;uer.s.  I  have  been  sent  by  Kii^l  to  coinimiiiicare  with  you,  and  1  have  brought 
you  this  letter." 

if.  Is  this  the  letter  he  Imuiglit  you  ?  —  .V.  Vi;s,  that  is  the  same  lettei-  put  in, 
E.\hibit  I.     This  is  my  answer  on  the  back  of  it. 

(,).  The  II  what  did  you  do  with  this  letter? — A.  I  took  it  from  yir.  .\stley  and 
wrote  my  answer  and  gave  it  to  Mr.  Astley  who  went  away  with  it. 

l^.    What  took  place  next? — .\.  The  ne.vt  thing  was,  a  man  on  foot  came  up. 

(^.    I)o  you  know  who  he  was? — .\.   Yes,  he  was  Mr.  Jackson,  a  brother  of  the  matt 
who  was  a  prisoner.      lit;  came  uji  with  another  document.      He  had  exactly  the  same 
story  to  tell,  that  he  had  been  sent  by  Kiel,  only  he  \\as  confused.      He  .said  he  had  been   , 
told  to  stand  in  front  of  a  house  with  a  white  flag  and  eventually  he  .said   be  t'ouud  that  . 
was  a  stupid  work,  and  he  came  on  to  me. 

Q.  Is  this  the  document  he  brought,  (?jxhibit  2)  ?  — .\.  Ye.s.  to  the  best  of  my  belief 
it  is.  It  is  an  exact  copy  of  it,  because  it  was  a  little  different  from  the  wording  of  the 
other  one. 

Q.  Then  what  did  you  do  in  answer  to  that  ? — A.  I  took  no  particular  notice  of  it 
as  I  had  already  sent  an  answer  back.  I  looked  upon  it  simply  as  a  copy  and  I  told 
Jackson  1  had  sent  an  answer  back  by  Astley. 

Q.  How  long  was  it  between  the  time  you  received  the  two  communications  ? — .V.  I 
should  say  about  a  ([uarter  of  an  hour. 

Q.  .\nd  what  took  place  next? — A.  As  soon  as  that  was  over  I  did  what  1  prin- 
cipally wanted,  I  had  drawn  the  tire  of  the  enemy.      Mr.  .\stley  said  '•  I  think  8ir,   Mr. 


'"i- 


86 


Kiel  is  in  a  very  great  state  of  excitement  and  I  sliould  not  wonder  if  lie  would 
surrender."  I  gave  orders  and  retired  my  wliole  foice  l)y  degrees  a,nd  fell  back  upon 
my  camp. 

Q.  What  took  place  iiext  ? — A.  VV^Iieu  f  arrived  at  the  camp  ]  was  x  cry  much  put 
out  and  annoyed  to  rind  my  orders  had  heeu  misunderstood,  and  that  instead  of  their 
having  taken  advantage  of  my  feint  and  having  occupied  the  ritle  pits,  they  were  all 
quietely  in  camp.    •        ' 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  further  communications?  -A.  As  .soon  as  I  found  this,  T 
am  afraid  I  used  .some  pretty  strong  language  ;  the  end  of  it  was  we  attacked.  The  men 
were  ordered  down.  I.went  down  myself  to  the  front  to  see  if  there  wiis  any  of  tlie 
enemy  in  the  intreiiiliment.  1  soon  got  tangible  proof  of  it.  The  force  that  luiii  their 
dinner  were  lyrought  up  aiid  we  began  gradually  to  force  our  way  on.  In  the  niidille  of 
that,  when  we  got  the  artillery  down,  ^[i-.  Astley  came  again  gallo|)iiig,  having  run 
the  gauntlet  of  both  forces.  lie  ran  lietvveen  them  and  came  with  a  Hag  and  produced 
anotlier  letter  from  Kiel. 

Q.  Is  this  the  one  lie  brought  you  that  time  (producing  it). — A.  Y  es,  that  is  the 
SfLtne  one. 

Q.  Is  this  the. envelope  it  caine  in  ?  -.\.  Yes,  (K\.  ')  and  4).  I  could  not  hear  what  , 
Astley  was  saying.  I  opened  the  envelo|K;  urlid  handed  it  to  him.  1  could  not  Iiear  what 
he  said,  1  tried;  to  stop  the  guns  tiring  to  hear  it,  but  that  was  ho]ieless  :  at  last  he 
handed  me  tlie  envelope  i"ind  pointed  to  it  ami  I  read  what  was  on  the  outside  of  the 
envelope  and  he  saiil  after  Mr.  Riel  had  closed  the  letter  he  got  it  back  and  wrote  on  it 
with  an  indelibly  pencil  and  he  said  "  you  had  better  read  what  that  was.' 

Q.  Then  what  took  place? — .A.  .Astley  .said  he  had  better  go  back  wiili  an  answer 
and  I  said  no,  there  was  no  necessity.  He  said  the  j)ii.soners  might  be  massacreil.  I  said 
there  was  no  fear  of  tiiat,  tliat  we  would  be  there  in  half  a  niiiiute.  1  went  on  and 
fprced  my  way,  brouj^ht  the  DOtli,  dismounted  the  troops  and  gradually  puslied  on. 

Q.  And  tlien  the  place  was  carried?  A.  Then  the  place  was  carried.  I>y  a  series 
of  rushes  we  forced  9ur  way  on  and  the  enemy  dispersed  altogether  but  they  still  kcjit 
a  tire  in  the  distance,  Inlt  gradually  all  attemjit  at  defence  had  ceased  with  the  excejition 
of  a  few  stray  shots  now  and  then. 

Q.   Astley  did  not  return? — .\.    No,  he  went  down  witli  us  to  the  jilateau. 

Q.  How  many  of  your  force  was  killed  on  that  occasion  ? — A.  On  that  occasion 
there  were  s\\  killed,  I  think,  and  twelve  or  thiiieen  wounded. 

Q.   That  ])ratical!y  was  the  end  i)f  the   camjiaign  so  fai-   as  your  cam])aign  was  con- 
vcerned  ?  — .\.    I'ratically,  it  was. 

Q.  How  long  after  that  was  it  befin-^  the  ])risoner  was  brought  to  yim  ?  .\.  Tiiat 
was  tin  tlie  12th.  We  halted  the  1:3th  and  marched  on  the  14tii,  and  I  think  it  was  ou 
tlie  loth.  I  had  hearil  he  was  on  that  side  of  the  river  and  I  marched  as  soon,  as  I  could 
intending  to  go  to  Lepine's  crossing.  ( )u  the  way  i  heard  of  Kiel  and  Dumont  ha\  ini; 
been  seen  and  instead  of  going  to  Le])ine's  1  turned  and  halted  at  tiaidujiuys 
cro.ssing,  ami  .sent  out  all  the  scouts  I  could  with  directions  to  search  the  wood  as  far  as 
Batoche.  Oil  the  loth  Riel  was  brought  in  by  two  scouts,  Hoiirie  and  .\inistroiii.',  and 
brought  to  my  tent,  and  when  he  entered  the  tent  he  ]priiduced  a  paper  wliiih  I  had  .sent 
to  him  saying  if  he  surrendered  I  would  protect  him  till  his  case  was  decided  by  the 
Ciinadian  (ioveriiment.  .  ' 

Q.  What  was  done  with  him  when  he  was  first  Jirought  in?  —A.  He  was  bioiitdit 
into  my  own  tent.  Very  feV  knew  he  was  there,  I  kept  in  my  tent  all  day.  I  had 
anotlier  tent  pitclied  alongside  and  he  was  put  in  that  tent  iindei'  cliarge  of  cajit.  Young, 
with  two  sentries  with  loaded  arms,  and  during  that  night  (.'aptaiii  Young  slept  in  the 
teut.  ,' 


^    SV^^''* 


Q.  Had  you  any  conversation  with  the  prisoner  while  he  was  there  ? — A.  Yes, 
■during  the  first  day  he  was  there  I  had  a  conversation  with  hiin. 

Q.  I>id  you  invite  any  conversation  from  him  ? — A.  I  dare  say  1  asked  him  one  or 
two  questions.    He  talked  very  fS;ely  to  nie. 

Q.  And  did  he  make  an\"- representation  as  to  Ids  share  in  the  matter  ?-  A.  No  I 
can  hardlv  reniendier.  I  was  writing  at  tlie  time  and  then  1  stopped  writing  and 
talked  to  Mr.  Kiel.  Tlie  only  one  thing  I  can  reinend)er  particularly  as  to  liis  .sjiare  in  the 
matter  was  as  1  was  leaving  the  tent,  he  said  :  "(ieneral,  I  have  heeii  thinking  whether  if 
the  Lord  )iud  granted  uie  as  decided  a  victory  as  lie  has  you,  whether  I  sliould  have  lieen 
able  to  put  it  to  a  good  use."  Tliat  «  is  the  only  thing  he  said  as  J  left  thetei\t,  1  had 
talked  a  good  deal  with  him  on  dirt'erent  matters.  ("  ." 

(,).  Tlien  he  was  sent  down  with  Captain  Young  ? — .\.  Yes,  1  telegraphed  down  to  the 
Oovernment  to  say  Mr.  Riel  was  a  jirisoner  and  to  know  what  was  to  he  done  with  him, 
and  eventually  I  was  directed  to  send  him  to  Rcgina  which  [  did,  under  the  charge  of 
Captain  Ynuu''  with  twelve  men  and  a  sergeant. 

Exandlied  liy  Mr.  (!iii;i;Nsnii;i,ns. 

(J.    You  were  in  connu  lud  of   til:'  forces  in   tlie  Xurth  West   Territorii-s  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  In  the  course  of  that  comuiauddid  you  issue  any. general  instructions  or  procla- 
mation to  the  iiilialiitants  ? — .\.  Well,  once  when  I  was  at  Fish  Creek,  I  sent  a  commii- 
uication  l>y  an  Indian  to  say  tiiat  the( iovernment  had  no  war  against  the  llalf-lueeds  or 
Indians,  tliat  those  who  had  hsen  forced  against  tiieir  will  to  join  Riel  would  lie  pardoned 
if  they  left  and  went  to  their  homes  and  reserves,  hut  I  said  no  pardon  should  lie  given 
to  Riel  or  his  immediate  aiders  and  ahcttors.     It  was  something  to  that  etl'ect. 

Q.   Was  tiiat  prouTtnnition  issued  over  your  nanie?^-.\.   Over  my  signature. 

Q.  .Miout  whit  tinit!  was  that  ?  -V.  Tliat  must  have  lieeii  between  the  2  Ith  of  .\plil 
and  the  ."nli  of   .May,   .vliiU-  we   were  lying  at  Fish  Creek  with  the  wounded. 

(,).  During  tlie  time  i{iel  was  in  your  tent,  did  you  have  any  conversation  with  him 
regarding  his  religious  views  ?  '— .\.   Well  yes,  he  talked  a  good^leal  about  his  religion. 

Q.  Did  .\stley  make  any  remark  to  you  at  the  time  he  brought  these  two  messages  that 
Riel  wished  as  a  condition  of  his  surrender  that  he  should  be  recognized  as  the  head  of 
the  Church  he  had  foinied  at  Hatoclie,  or  remarks  to  that  etiect.  —  A.  Xfi.  I  don'i  think  s^o. 
I  remciibcr  .Vstlcy  . -raying  "  Cuifound  liini  !  lie  is  always  bothering  about  his  religion. 
He  his  anxious  you  should  know  about  his  icligioi.i,"  or  some  tliiiig  like  that. 

Q.   This  was  befure  you  saw  Riel  ? — .\.    Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  to  you,  that  is  Riel,  when  you  had  this  conversation  with  him 
regariling  religion  i — A.  I  could  hardly  tell  you.  It  was  a  disconnected  thing,  lie  told  me 
that  Rome  was  all  wrong  and  the  jirie.sts  were  navrow  minded.  peoi>le  ;  tliere  was  iu:)thing 
particularly  except  the  ideas  of  an  enthusiast  on  some  religious  point. 

K,).    Did  he  say  to  you  he  was  a  prophet  ! — A.   No. 

(,>.    -Vnd  endowed  with  the  spirit  of  (lod  ? — .\.   No,  nothing  of  that  .sort. 

(^.  Under  what  ciiciiintances  was  the  jiajier  which  you  sent  to  Riel  otTering  him  pro- 
tection sent  ?  .\.  1  don't  exactl^tknow  what  you  mean'.  That  I  think  was  sent  when 
Astley  told  me  lie  was  anxious  to  suVrender.  "       i 

Q.  It  was  when  .\stley  told  you  he  thought  Riel  was  anxious  to  surrender  that  you 
sent  hiiu  that  ?'  -.\.  [  think  I  sent  it  out  by  a  scout,  Hiave  got  a  copy  of  it  in  my  b'ook. 
I  tliink  I  sent  it  by  a  scout. 

Q.   Was  there  not  a  man  came  on  behalf  of  Riel  after  the  finiil  charge  and  after  Ba- 


^ 


toche  had  been  carried,  and  stated  to. you  Riel  would  l)e  willing  to  give  hintself  U])  on  cer- 
■tain  conditions  .' — A.   So,  I  have  no  recollection  of  that. 

Q.  Do  you  recollecj;  havinf{  seen  a  man  named  Moise  Ouellette  who  was  one  of  the 
councillors  of  tlie  Coverinnent  of  the  .Saskiitchewan  .' — A.   I  don't  rememlier  particularly. 

Q.  r3o  you  remeiiiber  lie  came  to  yOui-  cam])  and  stated  he  knew  where  Kiel  was  and 
that  he  would  surrender ' 'Under  certain  conditions  and' he  di«l  not  wish  to  lie  followed 
by  any  one  '! — A.  Xotliing  of  the  sort.  If  any  man  had  come  and  told  me  that,  I  would 
have  seized  liini  injmediately. 

Q.   That  is  pretty  good  evidence  lie  did  not  come  I  — .\.   Certainly. 

Q.  Your  recollection  is  thabyou  gave  that  little  pieci'  of  paper  to  a  scout  !-:\.  Ye.s, 
■with  the  liope  it  would  i-each  Riefin  some  way  oi-  other. 

Q.    I)Vj  you   recollect  the  date  you  gave   him  this'']»a|ici-  /- -  A.    No,  I  cannot   exactly 


say 


r-  but  it  must  have  been  between  the  1:2th  and  the  Iftth. 


(iEOH<;K  Hoi.MKs  Yoi'Ni;,  sworn,  examined  by  Mi-,   liurbidge.   . 

,.  1  -  '  .' 

Q.    \  ou  are  an  otlicer  in  the  W  innij)eg  Field  Utittei'y  ' — -A.    \es.' 

•;  Q.    Were  you  with  General  .MiilillHtons  forces  befoie  Hatoche  .' — .\.    Yes. 

Q.  In  what  position  were  you  t — .\.   I  was  brigade  Major  of  the  infantry  brigade. 

Q.    Were  you  with  the  forces  on  their  arrival  at  JJatoche  ? — A.    I  wa.s. 

I  Q.  Dill  you  hear  any  tiring  about  the  time  you  arrived  .' — A.  As  we  sujiposed  we  were 
Hearing  IJutoche  we  heard  heavy  tiring  from  the  steamer.  That  was  early  on  the  morning 
of  the  Dtii  .May.  we  heard  the  steamer  liring  aiid  whist liiig  for  assistance. 

Q.    You  wcr^  i)rebentj^Iuring  thefigliting  on  the  Otli,  lOtli,  1  llh  and  I'Jth  .'  -   A.   Yes. 

Q.    Weve  you  '.vitii  t:!ie  .idcanct'  that  went  o\cr  tin-   lilie  pit.-,   in  tlir   last  charge  !   - 
A.  I  was. 
I     .    Q.  You  were  one  of  tlie  first  who  went  into  a  certain  house  I  believe  (-^A.   YesiSir. 

Q.   Can  you  describe  what  house  J  -  \.   The  hou.se   knoun  as  their  council  cliamber. 

Q.  What  did  you  liiid  there  .'  -.\.  In  the  upstafrs,  I  found  a  large  number  of  pa]>ers 
and  books. 

Q.  .Where  did  you  find  them  '. — .\.  On  the  table  where  they  had  left  them,  fastened 
to  the  wall  in  pa|)er  clip.'^and  some  in  two  boxes  and  some  in  a  small  leather  reticule  :  they 
were  generally  through  the  room  in  places  of  safety,  according  to  their  importance. 

n.  What  did  you  do  with  them  '! — A.  J  lashed  the  books  and  papeis  together  with 
a  rope  and  gave  them  to  an  artillery  Sergeant  to  take  to  Col  Jarvis.  Other  papers  were 
found  besides  those  I  found  in  the  council  chamber,  and  as  they  turned  uj),  1  took  pos- 
session of  them. 

Q.  Did  you  examine  these  papers  ? — A.    I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  i-ecogiiize  that,  (No.  -t),  as  one  of  the  i)apers  ? — A.  I  do. 

Q,  Do  you  recognize  that  as  one  of  tiie  papers  ymi  found,  (6)  ? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  one  of  the  papers  you  found  (the  7th)  ? — A.   I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  one  of  the.  papers  (1.3)?    -A.   I  do. 

y.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  one  of  the  ])apers  you  found  there  (16)  ? — A.   I  do. 

Q.  Were  you  pre.sent  wlien  the  prisoner  was  brought  into  the  camp? — A.  I  wa^  iu 
the  camp  and  saw  him  brought  in. 


89 

Q.   You  were  through  the  fight  at  Batoehe  ?  —  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  saw  the  rebels  lighting  against  the  troops,  against  General  Middletou  ? — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.   How  were  they  armed? — A.   With  rifles  and  shot  guns. 

Q.  How  many  days  after  ISatoche  was  Kiel  taken  ?  A.  The  last  day  of  IJatot-he 
was  Tuesday  the  l;?th,  and  the  prisoner  was  brouglit  into  camp  on  the  afternoon  of  FridJty 
the  1.5th.  He  was  lirought  by  the  .scouts  to  the  tent  of  the  General  and  was  held  there 
for  ijuestioning. 

Q.  AVas  lie  afterwaids  put  under  your  L-harge  ? — .\.  I  was  sent  fur  by  the  (ien<'ial 
as  I  liad  known  the  [irisoner  in  the  rebellion  of  09-70,  to  see  if  I  would  recogr.ize  him. 
I  reported  that  there  was  no  nlistake  as  to  his  identity:  ab.ait  half  past  nine  word  was 
sent  tliat  the  General  wanted  me,  and  I  went  to  the  tent,  and  the  (Jeneral  told  ny  that 
h^  wanted  nie  to  take  charge  of  the  prisoner  and  be  answerable  for  his  safe  keeping.  [ 
had  charge  of  liim  till  I  delivered  him  to  Capt.  Dean,  on  the  :i:!r<l  May. 

(,).   Had  you  frefpient  conversations  with  him  during  that  time  ? — A.   Con.',   ntly. 

().    Dill  he  speak  freely  and  voluntarily  wijji  you  ? — A.   Yes,  he  talked  all  ;'.  •  time. 

().  You  did  not  order  him  to  make  any  .statements  to  you  ? — A.  None  at  all. 

K.  Did  he  speak  at  all  in  regard  to  the  Indians  he  expected  to  act  with  him,  how 
many  there  were  ?  . 

'Sli:  KiT7.i>ATl!lf;K.  —I  raisi?  a  formal  objection  to  this  part  of  the  evidence.  This 
was  a  stiteiiient  made  by  this  urin  to  this  pers'>n  who  was  in.  charge  of  him. 

Ills   UoNoH.    -Wlijit  is  your  objection  ?  -  ■  ' 

.Mr.  Fn'ZP.\THirK.-  A  statement  by  a  prisoner  when  in  custody  to  the  per>oiuin 
charge  of  him  is  not  admissible  in  e\idence.  y 

Ml-.  lirijHiDUK. — Did  you  hold  out  any  induceiiient  to  j.\'nii  to  make  a  stateiiuut 
to  you?     A.  No,  ■'^'■ 

Q.    His  .statements  were  voluntary  entirely? — A.  Yes. 

<^.    Did  you  otter  any  inducements  or  make  i)roniises  of  any  kind  ?      A.   No. 

-Mr.  FnzH.VTiMf  K.   -It  is  not  admi-ssible  in  evidence  niile.->s  he  made  it  voluutarilv. 

-Mr.  HruiiliKiK.-  .\.  What  did  he  say  about  the  Indians  ?  A.  ( »ii  the  Satuiday  the 
(ieiieial  v>islied  to  know  as  to  the  movements  of  sume  bands  wlii>  iiityudeil  to  join  the  n'liel 
forces,  and  the  prisoner  spoke  about  a  messenger,  (.'liic-1-Gum,  wlioni  he  had  sent  towmils 
Prince  .\lbert  and  ISattleford  to  bring  men  with  him  to  Batoehe.  He  gave  this  informa- 
tion to  gi\e  to  the  General  as  it  might  be  possible  to  divcMt  the  Indians  from  their  inten- 
tion. 

Q.  Did  he  say  anything  about  sending  runners  out  to  the  bands.'  -A.  Ye>.  in  the 
Nortli-West  and  al.so  towards  Cypres  Hills. 

Q.  Did  h(!  s[)eak  to  you  of  anv'other  aid  he  e.xpectjed  to  rei^eive'!  -.\.  I  was  instruct- 
ed to  speak  about  possible  aid  from  Irish  sympathisers  in  the  I'liited  States.     "" 

Mk.    FlTZHATKlCK.  • 

,      Q.    Were  you  instructed  to  speak  to  him  about  tliat  ?-.\.   Yes. 
Mr.  FiTZFATKicK.     Then  I  object. 

Mk.  BuHBiuiiE.     We  will  not  say  anything  about  that.  ' 

Q.   Did  he  speak  about  the  battles  ? — .\.   About  Duck  Lake,  y 
Q.   What  did   he  say  about  that  I — A.   We   hatl   a   conversjition   as  to  the   way    it 


( 


-  88 

toche  had  beeix  carried,  and  stated  to  you  Riel  would  l)e  willing  to  give  himself  up  on  cer- 
tain conditions  ? — A.   No,  I  have  no  recollection  of  tliat. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  having  seen  a  man  named  Moise  Ouellette  who  was  one  of  the 
councillors  of  the  Government  of  the  .Saskatchewan  ? — A.   I  don't  rememher  particularly. 

Q.  Do  you  remeuiber  he  came  to  your  camp  and  stated  he  knew  where  Riel  was  and 
that  he  would  surrender  under  certain  conditions  and  he  did  not  wish  to  l)e  followed 
by  any  one  ! — A.  Xothiin,'  of  tlie  sort.  If  any  man  had  crime  and  told  me  that,  I  would 
have  seized  him  immediately. 

Q.   That  is  pretty  good  evidence  he  did  not  come  .'  -\.   Certainly. 

Q.  Your  recollection  is  that  you  gave  that  little  piece  of  paper  to  a  scout  '.  \.  Yes, 
"with  the  hope  it  would  reach  Kiel  in  some  way  or  otiiei'. 

Q.  Do  you  recollect  the  date  you  gave  him  this'pajier  .' — A.  No,  1  cannot  exactly 
say  but  it  must  liave  been  between  the  12th  and  the  loth. 


Georoe  Holmks  YouNiJ,  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  lUnbidge. 

Q.  You  are  an  othcer  in  the  Winnipeg  Field  Battery  ( — A.  Yes. 

/       Q.  Were  you  with  (ieneral  Middleton's  forces  before  Hatoclie  ? — \.   Yes. 

Q.  In  wliiit  position  were  you  ? — .\.    I  was  brigade   .Major  of  the  infantry  briyafle. 

Q.  Were  you  with  the  forces  on  their  arrival  at  Batoche  I — A.    I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  any  rtring  al)out  the  time  you  arrived  ? — A.  As  we  supposed  we  were 
Hearing  Batoche  we  heand  heavy  firing  from  the  steamei-.  That  was  early  on  the  morning 
of  the  9tii  ilay,  we  heard  the  steamer  tiring  aiid  wliistling  for  assistance. 

Q.   You  were  present  during  the  fighting  on  the  9th,  10th,  llfh  and  ll'tli  .'  —A.  Yes. 

Q.  We!'e  you  with  t'le  advaiice  that  went  o\er  the  rifle  pits  in  the  last  charge  ?  - 
J^.   I  was.        ■  '       ' 

Q.   You  were  one  of  the  Hr.st  who  went  into  a  certain  hftuse  I  believe  ?-^A.   Yes  Sir. 
■Q.   Can  you  describe  what  house  .' — \.   The  house  known  as  their  council  chamber. 

Q.  Wiuit  did  you  liiid  there  ?^A.  In  the  upstairs,  I  found  a  large  number  of  papers 
and  books.  •     ' 

Q.  Where  did  you  find  them  ? — A.  On  the  table  where  they  had  left  them,  fastened 
to  tlie  wall  in  paper  clips  and  some  in  two  boxes  and  some  in  a  small  leather  reticule  :  they 
were  generally  throus;li  the  room  in  places  of  .safety,  a<cording  to  their  imjiortance. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  with  them  ? — A.  I  lashed  the  books  and  papers  together  with 
a  rope  and  gave  tliem  to  an  artillery  .Sergeant  to  take  to  Col  Jarvis.  Other  papers  were 
found  besides  those  I  found  in  the  council  chamber,  and  as  they  turned  uj),  1  took  pos- 
session of  them.  .  . 

■  Q.  Did  you  exiimine  these  papers  ? — A.   I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  that,  (No.  .t),  as  one  of  the  papers  ?— A.   I  do. 

Q,  Do  you  recognize  that  as  one  of  the  papers  you  found,  (6)  ? — A.   I  do. 

C^.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  one  of  the  jiapers  you  found  (the  7th)  ?  ^A.   I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  one  of  the  papers  ( 1 3)  ? — A.   I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  recognize  this  as  ojie  of  the  papers  you  found  there  (16)  ? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  Were  you  present  when  the  prisoner  was  brought  into  the  camp  ? — A.  I  wa-,  iit- 
the  camp  and  saw  him  brought  in. 


<^ 


^ 


89  ■      .     /  ■ 

Q.   Yoii  were  through  the  fight  at  Batoche  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  saw  the  rebels  fighting  against  the  troops,  against  Cleueral  Middletoii  ? — 
A.  Yes. 

Q.   IIow  were  they  armed  ? — A.   With  rifles  and  shot  guns. 

Q.  How  many  days  after  15atoclie  was  Kiel  taken  ?  A.  The  last  day  of  Bataclie 
was  Tuesday  the  12th,  and  the  prisoner  was  brought  into  camp  on  the  afternoon  of  Friilay 
the  ISth.  He  was  brought  by  the  scouts  to  the  tent  of  the  General  and  was  hekl  there 
for  questioning.  ,      ,  . 

Q.  Was  he  afterwards  put  under  your  charge  ?  —  A.  I  was  sent  for  by  the  (ii-nt-ial 
as  I  had  known  the  prisoner  in  the  reliellion  of  fiil-TO,  to  .see  if  I  would  recognize  him. 
I  reported  that  there  was  no  mistake  as  to  his  identity  :  about  half  past  nine  word  was 
sent  tliat  the  (Jeneral  wanted  me,  and  I  went  to  tlie  tent,  and  the  (Jenenil  told  nie  that 
he  wanted  mc?  to  take  charge  of  tlie  prisoner  and  be  answerable  for  his  safe  keeping.  I 
had  charge  of  Jiini  till  I  delivered  him  to  ('apt.  Dean,  on  the  li'ii-d  May. 

Q.   PFad  you  freijuent  conversations  with  him  during  that  time? — A.   Consv'    'itly. 

f,).    Did  he  speak  freely  and  voluntarily  with  you  ? — A.   Yes,  he  talked  all  '!,  ■  time. 

().   You  did  not  onler  liim  to  nrake  any  statements  to  you  ? — A.   None  at  ali. 

K.  Did  he  speak  at  all  in  regard  to  the  Indians  he  exjiected  to  act  with  him,  how 
many  there  were  ?  ^  <=^ 

i[r.  FlTZPATItlCK.  —  F  rai.se  a  formal  objection  to  this-^art  of  the  evidence.  This 
was  a  statement  made  by  this  man  to  this  person  who  was  in  charge  of  him. 

Ills    iloNoit. — What  is  y<iur  olijicti'in  ?  •  . 

.Mr.  FnzPATkif'K."  A  statement  by  a  prisoner  when  in  custody  to  the  person  in 
charge  of  him  is  not  admissible  in  evidence. 

Mr.  ISritmniiE.  -Did  you  hold  out  any  inducemt-nt  to  him  to  make  a  stateuunt 
to  you?     A.  No, 

Q.   His  statements  were  \oluutary  entirely  ? — A.  Yes. 

t^.    Did  you  offer  any  inducements  or  make  promises  of  any  kind  ?-     A.    Xo. 

-Mr.  FrrzF.VTlilfK.   -It  is  not  admissible  in  t!\  idence  unless  he  made  it  voluntarily. 

Mr.  Hrniiiin;E.-'.\.  What  did  he  say  about  tlie  Indians?  —  A.  On  the  Saturday  tlie 
(ieneral  wished  to  know  as  to  the  movements  of  some  bands  who  intended  to  join  the  ii'bel 
forces,  and  the  prisoner  s]joke  about  a  nu^sscnger,  C'hic-1-C'uni,  whom  he  had  sent  towards 
Prince  .Albert  and  iJattleford  to  bring  men  with  him  to  Batoche.  He  gave  this  iufoniia- 
tion  to  give  to  the  <  ieneral  as  it  might  be  possible  to  divert  the  Indians  from  their  inten- 
tion. 

Q..  Did  hi!  say  anything  about  sending  runners  out  to  the  bands!-  -.\.  Ye.--,  in  the 
Nortli-West  and  ai.so  towards  Cypres  Hills. 

Q.   Did  bespeak  to  you  of  any  other  aid  he  expected  to  receive  !-    .V.   I  was  instruct- 
ed to  speak  about  possible  aid  from  Irish  sympathisers  in  the  United  .States. 
•    ,  -Mk.    FlTZP.\TBlCK.  .  . 

;    Q.   Were  you  instructed  to  speak  to  him  about  that  ?  -.\.   Ye.s. 
Mr.  Fitzhatrick.     Then  I  object. 

Mr.  Burbidge.     We  will  not  say  anything  about  that.   -  -   ' 

Q.   Did  he  speak  about  the  Ijattles  1 — A.   About  Duck  Lake. 
Q.   What  did   he  say  alx)ut  that  1 — A.   We  had  a   conversiition  as  to  the  way   it 


>  I  90  .  ^' 

occurred.  He  insisted  tliat  Major  Crozier  fired  first.  After  tlie  first  fire  he  said  tliat  lie 
liad  instructed  liis  men  to  fire.  He  gave  three  coiuniands  to  fire  as  he  explained  it.  The 
first  as  I  remember  it,  "  was  in  the  name  of  God  who  made  us,  reply  to  that."  They  fired 
and  Crozier's  men  replied,  and  he  said,  '•  in  the  name  of  God  the  Son  who  saved  us,  reply  to 
that.''  And  the  third  was  "  in  the  name  of  God  the  Holy  Ghost  who  sanctifies  us,  reply  to 
that.  "  He  spoke  also  of  the  circumstance.s  that  after  (iahriel  was  wounded,  a  scalp  wound  1 
tliink,  he  continued  to  load  the  guns  of  the  iiieli  till  stopped  hy  the  How  of  hlood  and 
when  he  could  not  do  that  any  longer,  he  .■said  :  "My  poor  children,  what  wilU  you  do, 
I  can't  help  you  any  longer.  '"  We  .sj)oke  of  Batoclie  after  his  cai)ture  in  reference 
to  the  death  of  an  old  man  I  .saw  lying  dead  on  the  face  of  the  ravine,  I)onald  Koss  I 
think  was  his  name.  He  told  me  that  as  he  was  dying  he  called  out  for  his  relatives  and 
chil<jlreu  to  come  and  see  him  l>efore  he  died. 

').  Did  hf  say  anything  about  the  disposal  of  his  forctfs  at  the  fight  ] — .\.  We  were 
conversing  about  the  difieient  lines  <if  defence.  Ke  liad  three,  as  I  understood,  a  doulde 
line  of  ritle  pits  and  a  lower  line  aaain.  He  exjilained  Imw  tiie  suuuts  wi'ie  to  fall  back 
wiien  pressed,  that  were  to  be  three  in  each  pij<'  ^  He  said  that  he  and  (Jabriel  Duniont 
dirt'ered.  That  (jalirici's  opinion  was  tliat^The-tvbel  right  was  the  key  to  the  ]iosition,  and 
should  be  defended.  The  prisoner's  opinion  was  that  tiie  whole  line  should  be  especially 
defended..    The  matter  was  decided  in  council  in  favour  of  his  vii'W. 

Q.   Did  he  sjieak  about  the  figliiing  qualities  of  the  Indians  ,'    -.\.    He  said  in  the 

early  partthe  movement  was  ail  c  irried  ou  1)V  tlje  Half  lireeds,  bat  wlien  it  came  tofight- 

■  ing  the  Indians  were  the  bravt-st  of   lii>   soldiers.       He  was  a«  ,in-  Itf  the  death  of    French 

and  of  many  others  instances  of  tlie  liglit.      I  was   jiositive   from  the   instances  he  talked 

about  that  he  nurst  h  ivc  been  opjjosite  to  me  at  ditt'erent  times. 

Q.   Tliis  con\er.satiou  took  |>lacc  whiii  he  was  undei-  your  charge  ? — A.   Yes. 

By  Mi(.  Frrzp.\Tni(K. 

O.   The  information  given   to  you   liy  the  prisoner  wa«  intended  to  lie  given  to  the 

General  in  reference  to  tli^Tlidian.>,  Cliic-l-C'uiii  .' — .\.   Yes. 

Q.  He  gave  the  information  for  the  pur| io.se  of  enabling  the  General  to  take  such 
measures  as  were  necessary  to  prexcnt  any  difiiculty  with  the  Indians  .' — \.  He  did. 

Q.   He  gave  that  freely  and  voluntarily,  without  ])ressure  ? — A.  Yes,  entirely  of  hi 
own  accord. 

(,).  The  fact  that  the  |)risoner  gave  liiniself  i\\<  necessarily  tended  to  shorten  the  con- 
ttict  and  avoid  fm'tliei' spilling  of  blood?  -A.  I  thought  he  was  captured  by  the  scouts,  I 
cannot  express  any  opinion  as  to  that.  If  he  gave  himself  up,  it  might  ha\  e  had  that 
ett'ect. 

Q.   You  heard  what  the  (ieneral  .said  this  morning?—  A.   Yes. 

Q.  Your  general  impression  was  that  Riel  in  every  waj-  decidtal  to  close  hostilities? 
—  A.  He  gave  us  all  the  information  that  wc  pre.ssed  him  for  sometimes  he  would  bring 
out  other  subjets  to  gain  time  to  consider  liis  answers. 


M.\loft  Edwakd  W.  .J.\iiVis,  sworn,  e.xamined  by  Mr.  .Sf^OTT. 

Q.    I  understand  you  were  in  command  of  the  Winnipeg  Field  I'attery? — .^.   Yes. 

Q.  On  active  service  at  the  battle  of  Batoehe  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   Were  you  there  on  the  12th  of  May? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   Throughout  the  whole  four  days  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Were  any  papers  handed  to  you  during  that  time  ? — A.  Yes,  towards  the  end  of 
the  engagement  on  the  l"Jtli,  the  last  day  of  the  engagement.     . 


91 

Q.   1>3'  whom  were  they  liroujjht  to  you  ?  —A.   By  one  of  the  staff  sergeants  of  the 
Battery. 

Q.   Would  you  recognize  tlie  papers?  did  you  examine  them? — A.   I  examined  them 
but  not  particuhirly  subsequently,  about  two  days  after,  by  order  of  the  General. 

Q.  You  would  recognize  them  I  suppose.     Is  that  one  of  them  (6)  ? — A.  That  is  one 
of  them. 

Q.   Do  you  recognize  that  (-i)  ? — .\.   Yes,  that  is  one  of  them. 

Q.   Do  you  recognize  that  (7)? — .\.   Yes,  that  is  one  of  them.     . 

Q.   Do  you  recognize  that  (l;{)  ?  —A.   Ye.s,  that  is  one  of  them. 

Q.   Do  you  recognize  this  (II  and  12)?  —  A.  That  is  also  one  of  them. 

Q.   Do  you  recognize  that  one  (ItJ)  ? — .\.   Yes,  that  is  one  (^f  them.  ^ 

Q.    Awd  tlii>  (1-1)? — A.   Yes,  that  was  also  among  the  papers. 


M.\Jou  (,'hiiZiki!  swoni,  examined  by  Mr.  Oslki!. 

Q.   I  believe  you  are  an  oiticer  in  tlie  mounted  police? — A.   Yes. 

Q.    At  the  time  of  this  trouble  inmiiianding  in  the  north  district?—  A.    Yes. 

Q.    With  head-ijuarters  at  liattleford? — A.   Yes.  > 

Q.  Carlton  was  the  primipal  outpost  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.- In  command  of  ? — A.   Sujieriiitcndent  ( iaunon. 

Q.    I  believe  you  arrived  at  Carlton  on  the  11th  March  ?^.\.   Yes. 

Q.  You  remained  there  till  aftf:r  the  Duck  Lake  tight  ?i— A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  force  had -you  innnediately  before  the  Duck  Lake  tight  at  Carlton? — A. 
We  had  tifty  men  on  my  arrival  on  the  1 1th  and  I  brought  twenty  ti\e  men  aftt-rwards 

Q.   And  then? — A.   That  was  the  full  strength  of  the  police. 

Q.  You  were  joined  by  some  Volunteers? — A.  By  the  Prince  Albert  volunteers 
about  the  'Jlst. 

Q.  I  believe  you  heard  there  was  trouble  and  you  issued  a  proclamation  ? — A.  I 
did,  sir. 

Q.    .Vnil  then  there  was  the  engagement  we  have  heard  of? — A.   There  was. 

Q.  Your  terms  as  given  to  your  agents  were  ? — A.  Captain  ]\Ioore  and  Thomas 
!^^^•Kay,  of  Prince  All)ert,  were  the  men  that  I  scut  out. 

Q.  With  instructions  ? — A.  T  told  Captain  Moore  to  tell  the  men  whom  he  would 
meet  from  Hid  that  as  I  believed  manj'  of  the  men  had  been  led  into  this  affair,  that  I 
hoped  tliev  woulil  disperse  and  go  to  their  homes,  and  1  believed  that  the  Ciovernment 
would  consider  their  case  and  would  deal  leniently  with  them,  with  the  exce}itioii  of  the 
ringleaders  who  would  have  to  answer  for  their  offence  ;  that  I  would  do  all  in  my 
power  to  set  au  amnesty  for  the  rank  and  tile. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  those  terms  were  received,  of  your  own  knowledge  ? — A.  I 
can  tell  what  was  told  me. 

Q.   The  result  was  thatXhey  still  continued  in  arms  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  organized  an  advance  from  Fort  Carlton  on  the  morning  of  the  26th  ? — -A. 
Yes,  it  was  not  au  advance  in  the  military  sense  of  the  word,  I  went  out  for  the  pur- 
pose of  getting  some  provisions  at  a  store  at  Duck  L;ike. 


92 

Q. !  Having  sent  out  a  .siniiller  party  in  the  niorninf.',  who  returned  unsuccessful? — 
A.  Driven  in. 

Q.  Then  you  were  proceeding  to  get  provisions,  and  you  were  met  l>y  a    ;.  '! — 

A.    By  tt  large  party  of  rebels. 

Q.   Did  you  identify  any  of  the  party  leading  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  The  result  was  a  contest  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   Youi-  force  was  fired  upon  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   And  several  killed  and  wounded  ? — A.  Yes. 

.       Q.    Did  you  get  the  provisions  ? — A.   We  did  not. 

Q.  Why? — A.  We  could  not  proceed,  we  were  prevented  liy  an  armed  forcf  of 
rebels.  '  '  i 

Q.   Then  did  you  rt:oeiv4  a  letter  or  communication  after  the  tight   on   the   27th   of 
,  March  ?  -A.   1  did. 

Q.   Who  gave  that  communication  to  you  ? — A.   Sanderson.  -  , 

Q.  Asking  you  to  come  for  your  dead,  had  it  this  copy  of  the  minute  attached 
when  you  received  it? — -A.  Well,  I  ciumot  swear  to  that,  I  don't  recollect  that  minute, 
the  other  part  I  remember  distinctly.  I  handed  it  to  my  commanding  orticer  after 
receiving  it. 

Q.  You  do  recollect  getting  fliis  document  purporting  to  be  signed  liy  the  prisoner  ? 
—  A.   Yes. 

(2-   That  is,  in  effect,  a  letter  asking  you  to  send  for  your  dead  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   Whom  you  had  Ijeen  compelled  to  leave  on  the  field  ? — A.   Yes. 

(2-   They  were  sent  for  '/ — A.   Not  then,  they  were  sent  for  afterwards. 

Q.  Who  composed  the  forces  that  opposed  you,  were  they  all  llalf-lireeds  ?  -  .A,.  I 
don't  think  so.      To  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  they  were  not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  Indians  ? — A.  I  saw  men  dres.sed  as  Indians,  and  who  looked  like 
Indians.  j. 

By  Mr.  FiTZP.\TRicK. 

Q.  When  you  reached  the  place  where  the  tight  took  |)lace  you  advanced  yourself, 
did  you  not  ? — \.  Yes  I  did. 

(J.  .\  short  distance  in  adxance  of  your  troops? — \.  Yes. 

().   You  were  m};t  by  one  froui  the  opposite  side? — A.   Yes. 

-  Q.   Who  was  that  ? — .\.    I  d^t  kiiow,  he  aj)peared  to  be  an  Indian. 

Q.  What  became  of  tiiat  man  ?    -A.  That  man  I  heard  was  killed. 

Q.   Did  you  .see  him  drop? — A.   I  cannot  say  that  I  saw  him  drop. 

Q.    Was  he  the  tirst  man  killed  to  your  knowledge? — .\.   I  do  not  know. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  any  of  the  men  drop  yourself? — A.  I  cannot  .say  that  I  did,  my 
attention  was  engaged  giving  directions  to  my  party.  ^■ 

'    Q.    Your  dead  remained  upon  the  field  ? — A.  Not  the  Whole  of  them,  some  of  the 
dead  did. 

Q.   You  knew  that  one  of  your  men,  Newitt,  remained  on  the  field  wounded  ? — 
Of  course  I  knew  it  afterwards  but  I  did  not  know  it  at  the  time. 


93 

.I' 
Q.   To  your  knowledge  was  that  man  taken  care  of? — A.  Xot  to  my  personal  know- 
ledge, tliough  I  believe  he  was  from  what  I  heard, 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  dead  after  the  battle  ? — A.  Xo  I  did  not. 

Q.   Before  they  were  interred  ?  — A.   No. 

Q.   Did  you  see  them  on  the  field  ? — A.   I  saw  some,  but  the  dead  left  ujHjn  the  tield 
I  did  not  see. 


ClUBLES  XoLlN,  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  CasGKAIN. 

Mr.  Marceau  was  sworn  as  interpreter., 

Q.  You  live  at  St.  Laurent? — .\.   At  the  present  time,  Yes. 

Q.    You  livt^d  bi'fore  in  Manitoba  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   Do  you  know  when  the  prisoner  came  into  the  country? — \.   Yes. 

Q.  -Aliput  what  time  was  it? — A.    1  think  it  was  about -the  beginning  of  Julv  1884. 

Q.  You  met  him  several  times  between  that  time  and  the  time  of  the  insurrection? 
—A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  the  prisoner  speak  aliout  his  plaiisand  if  so,  what  did  he  say  ?  -A.  About  a 
month  utter  he  ari'iveil,  he  showed  me  a  book  that  he  had  written  in  the  States.  What 
lie  .showed  mr  in  that  book  was  first  to  destroy  Eiiijland  and  Canada. 

Q.   .\nd  ? — A.   And  also  to  destroy  Rome  and  the  Pope. 

Q.  Anything  else  ? — .\.  He  said  that  h<'  had  a  mission  to  fultil,  a  divine  mission, 
and  as  a  proof  that  he  had  a  mission,  he  showed  a  letter  from  the  bishop  of  Montreal 
eleven  yesirs  back. 

Q.  Did  he  say  how  lie  would  carry  out  his  plans?  -.\.  He  did  iiot^ay  how  he  would 
carry  out  his  plans  then. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  something  after?— .\.  He  commeuced  to  talk  about  his  plans 
about  the  first  of  December  1884. 

ii-  Wli  it  did  he  tell  you  '!  — A.  In  the  beginning  of  December,  1^884  ;  he  began  to 
.sho.v  a  desire  to  have  m.)iiey,  he  spoke  to  me  about  it  tfrst,  I  think. 

().  How  much  did  he  say  he  wanted? — A.  The  first  time  he  spoke  of  money  I  tliink 
he  said  lie  wanted  10,000  or"l"),000  dollars. 

Q.  From  whom  would  he  get  the  money  ? — .\.  The  first  time  he  spoke  about  it  he 
did  not  know  of  any  particular  plan  to  get  it,  at  the  same  time  he  told  me  that  lie  wanted  to 
claim  an  indemnity  from  the  Canadian  (iovernment.  He  said  that  the  Canadian  Govern- 
ment owed  him  about  100,000  dollars,  and  then  the  ipiestion  arose  whom  the  person  were 
whom  he  would  have  to  talk  to  the  (iovernment  about  the  indemnity.  Some  time  after 
that  the  prisoner  told  me  that  he  had  an  interview  with  Father  Andre  and  that  he  liad 
made  peace  with  the  church,  that  since  his  arrival  in  the  country  he  hadjtried  to  sa^iarate 
the  people  from  tlie  clergy,  that  until  that  time  he  was  at  open  war  almost  with  the 
clergy.  He  said  that  he  went  to  the_ church  with  Father  Andre  and  in  the  presence  of 
another  priest  and  the  Blessed  Sacrement  he  had  made  j)eace,  and  said  that  he  would  never 
again  do  anything  against  the  clergy.  Father  Andre  told  him  he  would  use  his  influence 
with  the  government  to  obtain  for  him  ;i5,000  doUai's.  He  said  that  he  would  bi?  content 
with  §:ir),000  then  and  that  he  would  settle  with  the  government  himself  for  the 
balance  of  100,000  dollars.  That  agreement  took  place  at  Prince  Albert.  The  agreement 
took  place  at  Saint  Laurent  and  then  Father  Andre  went  back  to  his  mission  at  Prince 
Albert. 


I  94       •  • 

I-      Q.   Before   December,  were  there  ineatings  at   which   Riel  spoke  and  at  whicli  you 
were  present  1 — A.   Yes.  [ 

Q  How  many  ? — A'.  Till  the  24th  February  I  assiste<l  at  seven  meetings,  to  tlw) 
best  of  my  knowledge. 

Q.  Did  the  prisoner  tell  you  what  he  would  do  if  they  paid  liiiii,  if  the  government 
paid  him  tlit;  indemnity  in  ijuestion  ?     A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  tell  you! — .\.  He  said  if  lie  got  the  money  he  wanted  from  the 
government  he  would  go  wherever  the  (government  wished  to  send  him,  he  told  Father 
Andre,  if  he  was  an  embarrassment  to  the  (ioverimient  liy  n-maining  in  the  N  \V. 
lie  would  even  go  to  the  )>rovince  of  Quebei-.  He  said  also  if  In-  f/ot  the  money  he  would 
go  to  the  United  States  and  stat  a  |iaper  and  laise  the  othei-  nationah'ties  in  the  States. 
lie  said  :  "IJefoiv  the  grass  is  that  liigh  in  this  country,  you  will  .sec  foreign  armies  in  this 
/country."  Hesaid  :  ••  I  will  connnence  by  dertroying  .Manitoba,  and  then  I  will  come  and 
idestixjy  the  North- West  and  take  possession  of  the  North-West." 

Q.  Did  iuiyone  make  a  flemand  in  thenanie  of  the  prisoner  for  the  indenniity  ? — .N. 
In  !tlie  Iifuinninii  of  Jaiiuaiv  the  (  bivernnunt  asked  fur  ten'lers  tocimstruct  the  tiii^raph 
line  bi-iwccn  Kdnionton  and   Duck  Lake,   I  tendered  for  it. 

(j.   You  withcliew  your  tender  .' — A.   Y'«'s. 

Q.   Why? — A.  On  tiie  29th  Januaiy,  the  tenders  wer(?  to  be  opend  un  the  l'7tli.  the 

prisoner  came  with  Duinont  and  asked  me  to  resign  my  rontraet  in  his  faMnir  beiaiisethe 

(tovernment  had  not  given  any   answci'   to   his  claim  for   .'*.'l.'i,()l)U,  so   as  to  frighten   the 

(lOvernment.      The  prisoner  asked  to  ha\e  a  jnivate  inter\  iew  to>i|Mak  of  that  jni.ately 

with    Dumont   and    .Maxime   FiCpine.      We   went  to   Lepine'.s  and  it  was  then  that  Kiel 

told  me  of  liis  plains. 

,  ■  •*  " 

Q.   What  were  his  ])Ians  .'  —  \.  The  pri.soner  asked  me  to  resign  him   my  contract  to 

show  the  (iovernnifiit  that   the  Half  breeds  were  not  satislieil  lii-caust- the  (lovernmeiit  hail 

not  given  Kiel  what  he^isked  for. 

Q.    Did  he  sjieak  of  hi>w  h.'  would  realize  his  ]ilans  .'    -A.    Not  there,  1  spoke  to  him. 

■  Q.  What  did  you  say  .'  —  .\.  I  told  him  1  would  not  sacriHce  anything  for  him,  jiai- 
tiiularlv  on  aeci^unt  of  hi.^  plan  of  going  to  the  United  States,  I  woulil  nut  gi\e  tive  cents. 
,  but  that  if  he  Would  make  a  bargain  with  me(  with  Lepine  and  Dumont  as  witnesses,  I 
proposed  to  him  lertain  conditions,  I  proposedSjiat  he  would  abandon  his  jilan  of  goiny  ti> 
the  .Stal*--,  ano  rai.->ing  the  people,  that  he  should  abandon  his  idea  of  iroiiig  to  the  St.ites 
and  raising  an  army  to  come  into  Ca^iada.  The  second  condition  was  that  he  would 
renoum-c  hi-,  title  as  ai'i  ameriean  citizen.  The  third  condition  was  that  he  would  aciept 
a  seat  in  the  House  of  Commons  as  soon  as  the  North- West  would  be  divided  into  counties. 

Q.  Were  those  conditions  accepted  by  the  prisoner  ?^A.  Yes.  The  next  day  I  recei- 
ved an  answer  to  atelegrain  from  .^[acdonald  ;  the  telegram  said  that  the  (Jovernment  was 
going  t>  grant  the  rights  of  the  Half-lireeds,  Init  there  was  nothing  said  about  Itiel  s  claim. 

Q.    Did  you  show  the  answer  to  Riel  ? — A.  I  showed  tlie  reply  I  rtceived  ne.xt  Sun- 

Q.  That  was  in  the  month  of  ?— lA.  February. 

(^.    In  the  beginning  of  the  month  ?V^A.   Ye.s. 

Q.  What  <lid  the  prisoner  .say  .'  — .\.  He  answered  that  it  was  -100  years  that  tin; 
English  had  been  robbing  and  that  it  was  time  to  jmt  a  stop  to  it,  that  it  had  been  "oing 
on  long  enough.  | 

Q,  Was  there  a  meeting  about  that  time,  about  tlie  Hth  or  24th  of  February  ? — A. 
A  meeting  1 


day. 


95  - 

Q.  At  which  the  prisoner  spoke  ? — A.  There  was  a  meeting  on  the  '_'4th  February, 
■when  the  prisoner  was  present. 

Q.  What  took  place  at  that  meeting,  did  the  prisoner  say  anything  about  his  depart- 
ing for  tlie  United  States  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  did  tlie  prisoner  tell  you  about  that  '! — .\.  He  told  nie  that  it  would  be 
well  to  try  and  make  it  appear  as  if  they  wantetl  to  stop  him  <{oing  into  the  States.  Five 
or  six  persons  were  appointeil  to  go  among  the  people  and  wlien  Kiel's  going  a«av  was 
spoken  about,  the  people  were  to  say  '"No,  No."  It  was  expected. that  IJagnon  would  be 
there  Init  he  was  not  there.  Kiel  never  had  any  intention  of  leaving  the  country. 

(2-    Who  instructed  the  people  to  do  that  ? — .\.    Itiel  suggested  that, himself. 

Q.  Was  that  put  ill  pra.-t ice  ? — A.   Yes. , 

Q.  Did  tlie  prisouc-r  tell  you  ht^  was  going  to  the  United  States  ?  —A.  I  was  cliair- 
nian  of  the  UKH^tiiig  wlieu  tlm  (|uestiun  of  Kiel's  going  away  was  brought  up. 

Q.  In  the  beginning  of  ^I  uvli  was  tlii^re  a  meeting  at  the  Halcro  .settlement  '. — A 
Yes. 

Q.    Were  you  presiMit  wlicu    that  nifctiug  was  ortjiUiized    by  him  '. — A.    The  meeting' 
was  not  exMclly  organized  by  the  piN.mer,  it  was  orf^auized  liy  i\\e  :  liut  the  prisoner  tonk 
advantage  of  the  meeting  to  dci  wli,it  he  did.   Tlu-  object  of  the  meeting  was  to  inform  the  ^ 
people  of  the  answer  the  (ioveinnient  had  gi\eii  to  the  petition  tliey  had  sent  in. 

Q.  lietwtien  rlie  1st  Maivli  and  the  meetin;^  at  Halcro  was  there  an  interview  liet- 
ween  tlie  |iiisoner  aiul  Father  Andre  .' —  \.   Yes,  on  the  I'nil  of  March. 

1^.  Those  notes  you  have  in  your  hand  were  made  at  the  time  .* — A.  Yes,  about  the 
time.  On  the  L'lid  of  .March,  there  was  a  meeting  between  Father  Andre  and  the  pri-oner 
at  the  Mission. 

Q.  At  llie  interview  b;'tween  Ritlier  Andre  and  the  prisoner,  did  the  prisoner  ^peak 
about  the  foriuation  of  a  provisional  tinvernment  ? — A.  About  seven  or  ei;;ht  Half- 
breerls  wei-e  tliere,  the  prisoner  came  al)out  lietween  ten  and  eleven  o'clock. 

().  What  did  he  say  to  Father  Andiv  ?— .\.  Tile  prisoner  was  with  Napoleon  Xault 
and  Daiiiase  Carriere.  The  prisoner  appeared  to  be  very  excited.  He  said  to  Father 
Andni  :  ■•  \  ou  must  give  me  permission  to  proclaim  a  provisional  (iovernii>ent  iiefore 
twelve  o'clock  to-night." 

Q.   What  day  was  this  ?— A.   The  I'nd  of  Alarch.         ■  '- 

ii.  What  then  ?  A.  The  prisoner  and  Father  Andre  had  adispute  and  Father  Andre 
put  the  pri.sonerout  of  doors. 

Q.  What  took  place  at  the  meeting  atHalcro,  what  did  you  see  ? — .\.  I  saw  about 
sixty  men  arrive  there,  all  armed,  with  the  prisoner. 

Q.    What  day  was  that  ?— A.   The  fourth  of  March, 

Q.    Were  tlie.se  men  armed  ? — A.   Nearly  all  were  armed.  ~ 

Q.  What  did  you  do  ? — A.  That  meeting  was  for  the  purpose  of  meeting  the  English 
Half-breeds  and  the  Canadians.  When  I  saw  the  men  coming  with  arms,  I  asked  them 
what  tliey  waiiteil,  and  I  said  the  best  thing  they  could  do  was  to  put  their  arms  in  a 
waggon  and  cover  them  up  so  they  would  not  be  seen.       ] 

i).   The  prisoner  spoke  at  the  meeting  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  ? — A.  He  said  that  the  police  wanted  to  arrest  him,  but  he 
said  these  are  tlie  real  police,  pointing  to  the  men  that  were  with  him. 

Q.  Did  you  speak  at  that  meeting  ? — -.A.  Yes,  I  spoke  at  that  meeting  and  as  I 
could  not  speak  in  English  1  asked  the  prisoner   to   interpret  me.     Before  leaving  in 


90 

the  morning  the  prisoner  and  I  had  a  conversation.     He  had  slept  at  my  place  that 
night.     JJi^fore  leiiving  I  reproached  him  for  wliat  he  had  done  the  night  before. 

Q.  On  the  5th  of  March  ? — A.  Tlie  prisoner  came  with  Gabriel  Duniont  to  see  nie. 
He  proponed  a  plan  to  me  that  he  had  written  upon  a  jtiece  of  paper.  He  said  that  he  had 
decided  to  take  up  anus  and  to  induce  tlie  people  to  take  up  arms,  and  tlie  first  thing  was 
to.fight  for  the  glory  of  tiod,  for  tlie  honor  of  Religion  and  the  salvation  of  our  .souls.  The 
prisoner  .said  that  he  had  already  nine  names  upon  the  paper,  and  he  asked  for  my  name. 
I  told  him  that  his  plan  was  not  perfect  but  since  he  wanted  to  tight  for  the  love  of  (Jod, 
I  would  propose  a  more  perfect  plan.  My  plan  was  to  liave  public  prayers  in  the  Ca- 
tliolic  chapel  dui-ing  nine  days,  and  to  go  to  confession  and  communion  and  then  do  as 
our  consciences  told  us. 

Q.  Did  the  prisoner  adopt  that  j)lan  ?  —  \.  He  said  tliat  nine  days  was  too  long.  I 
told  him  that  I  did  not  care  about  the  time  and  that  I  would  not  sign  his  paper.  The 
prisoner  asked  me  to  come  next  <lay  to  his  house,  and  1  went  and  there  we  discussed 
his  plans.     There  wjere  six  or  seven  persons  there. 

Q.  Rid  you  propose  your  plan  ? — A.  He  j)roposed  his  plan  and  then  lie  proposed 
mine. 

Q.  Did  you  decide  to  have  the  nine  days  ? — A.  We  decided  upon  the  nine  days 
prayer,  that  jilan  was  adopted  almost  unanimously,  no  ^•ote  was  taken  upon  it. 

Q.  Was  the  nine  days  prayer  commenced  in  the  chureli  ? — A.  Yes,  on  the  Sunday 
following. 

Q. .  Wliat  (lay  was  tliut  ? — .\.  The  meieting   at   Riel's  was.on   the  sixth,  I    think   it 
^Was  on  the  sixth  March. 

Q.    When   did   the  nine   d.iys   prayer   conniipnce  ? — A.    It   was   annouiK-eil    in    the 
church  tf)  eoniiiience  an  the  Tuesday   following  and  to  close  on  the  19th  ,Mt  Joseph's  day. 
Q.    Did  the  prisoner  assist  at  the  prayer? — A.   No,  he  prevented  people  going. 

Q.  When  clid  you  finally  diHer  fiom  the  prisoner  in  opinion? — A  about  I'O  days 
"before  they  took  up  arms.  I  bioke  with  the  prLsoner  and  made  open   war  upon  him. 

Q.  What  hapjieiied  on  the  10th? — .\.  On  the  I'JtIi  of  March,  I  and  the  jirisoner 
were  to  meet  to  explain  the  situation,  I  was  taken  prisoner  bj'  four  armed  men. 

Q.  Who  were  til"  armed  men? — .V.  Philip  (Jardiipuy,  David  Tourond,  Francis  Ver- 
niette.  and  .Josejdi  Leiiioine.  I  was  taken  to  the  church  of  .St  Antoiue.  I  saw  some 
Indians  and  Half-breeds  aimed  in  the  ehurcli. 

Q.  Did  you  have  oecasion  to  go  to  the  couia-il  after  that?— A.  During  the  ni"ht  I 
was  brought  before  the  council. 

Q.   Was  the  prisoner  there  ? — .\.  Yes. 

Q.'  W'liat  did  he  say  ? — .\.   I  'was  brought  before  the  council  at  ten  o'clock  at  ni'dit 
the  pri.sonej;  made  the  accusation  against  me. 

Q.   Vyhat  did  you  do? — .\.   I  defended  myself. 

Q.  What  did  you  say,  in  a  few  words? — A.  I  proved  to  the  council  that  the  prisoner 
had  made  use  of  the  movement  to  claim  thfe  indemnity  for  his  own  pocket. 

-Q.   You  were  acquitted  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  were  in  the  cliurc:ii  after  that?— .\.  The  prisoner  protested  against  the 
decision  of  the  council. 

Q.  Why  did  you  join  the  movement? — A.  To  save  my  life. 

Q.  You  were  condemned  to  death  ? — A.   Yes. 


97  ' 

Q.  When  were  you  condemned  to  death  ? — A.  When  I  was  made  prisoner  I  had 
been  condemned  to  death,  when  I  was  brought  to  the  church. 

Q.   On  the  21st  of  !March  were  you  charged  with  a  commission,  do  you  recognize  that 
(Ex  5)  ?— A.  Yes. 

Q.  Who  gave  you  that  ?. — A.  The  prisoner  himself. 

Q.   For  what  purpose  ? — A.  To  go  and  meet  the  delegates  of  major  Crozier.     I  did 
not  give  them  the  document  because  I  thought  it  was  better  not. 

Q.   Do  you  remember  the  2Gth  of  March,  the  day  of  the  battle  at  Duck  Lake? — A. 
Yes. 

Q.   Was  the  prisoner  there  ? — A.  Yes.     After   the  news  came  that  the  police  were 
coming  the  prisoner  started  one  of  the  tirst  for  Duck  Lake  on  horseback. 

Q.   What  did  he  carry  ? — \.   He  had  a  cross. 

Q.  Some  time  after,  you  left  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  went  to  Prince  All»ert  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   In  the  l)egiuuiug  of  December  1884  the  prisoner  had  begun  speaking  of  his  plan 
about  taking  up  arms? — A.   Yes. 


*  By  Mk.  Lemikux. 

Q.  You  took  a  very  active  part  in  the  the  political  movement  in  this  country  since 
69  ? — A.  Yes,  in  69  I  was  in  Manitoba.  The  prisonner  is  my  cousin.  In  84  I  knew 
the  prisoner  was  living  in  Montana.  I  understood  that  he  was  teaching  school  there,  he 
had  his  wife  and  children  there.  I  was  aware  there  was  ajScheme  to  bring  him  into  the 
country. 

Q.  You  thought  the  presence  of  the  prisoner  would  be  good  for  the  Half-breeds,  for 
the  claims  they  were  demanding  from  the  Government. — A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  tiiat  movement  the  Catholic  Clergy  took  part  ? — A.  The  clei-gy  did  not  take 
part  in  the  political  movement  but  they  assisted  otherwise. 

Q.  The  clergy  of  all  denominations? — A.  Yes,  all  the  religions  in  the  North- West.  , 

Q.  You  were  not  satisfied  with  the  way  things  were  going,  and  you  thought  it 
necessary  to  have  Riel  as  a  rallying  point? — A.   Not  directly,  not  quite. 

Q.  You  sent  to  bring  him  ? — A.  A  committee  was  nominated  and  it  was  decided  to 
send  the  resolution  to  Ottawa.  We  did  not  know  whether  the  petition  was  right  or 
whether  we  had  the  right  to  present  it.  We  were  sending  to  Ottawa  and  they  were  to 
pass  Kiel's  residence.  When  the  time  came  we  saw  that  we  could  not  realize  enough 
money  to  send  them  there,  and  the  committee  changed  its  decision.  Delegates  were  sent 
to  Mr.  Riel  to  speak  about  this  petition  and  they  were  to  invite  him  into  the  country  if 
they  thought  proper.  ... 

Q.  Did  the  prisoner  object  to  come  ? — A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Who  were  the  delegates  sent  by  the  committee? — .\.  Gabriel  Dumont,  Michel 
Dumas  and  James  Isbister.  The  prisoner  came  with  his  wife  and  children  and  lived  with 
me  about  four  months. 

Q.  A  constitutional  movement  took  place  in  the  Saskatchewan  to  redress  the 
grievances  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  The  Half-breeds  of  all  religions  took"p^t  ? — A.  Yes.  >■  ■ 

Q.  The  Whites? — A.  Not  directly,  they  syi^pathised  very  much  with  us.  The  Whites 
did  not  take  direct  action  in  the  movement  biit^ym))athised  greatly  with  the  H^lf-breeds. 
The  witness  is  asked  during  what  le'ii^t  of  tiitte  tlie  political  movement  lasted  and  he 


98 


said,  it  comiuenced  ill  March  1884  and  continued  until  February  or  Marcli  1885.  He 
said  that  the  prisoner  after  Jlaviiig  lived  about  three  months  at  his  phvce  went  into  his 
,  own  liouse  tliat  lie  thinks  was  f,'iven  to  him  by  Mr.  Ouellette.  The  witness  is  asked  if 
in  September  the  prisoner  wanted  to  j.^o,  and  the  witness  answers  that  he  knows  that 
the  prisoner  spoke  of  ;^oinj;,  but  he  never  believed  he  wanted  to  go.  The  witness 
is  asked  about  what  (late  he  ceased  to  have  friendly  relations  with  the  prisoner,  and 
he  says  about  twenty  days  before  he  took  up  arms,  which  was  aliout  the  iMtli 
March.  The  witness  is  asked  if  in  the  month  of  Feliruary,  he  thoui,'ht  Mr.  liiel 
could  be  useful  to  their  cause,  and  he  says  that  in  that  month  he  thougiit  that  if  he 
acted  constitutionally  lie  would  be  useful  to  their  cause,  but  that  as  soon  as  he  heard 
that  the  Ciovjjmnient  had  refused  the  prisoner  the  indemnity  tliat  hi-  claimed,  tliat  lie 
said  he  haiTno  mure  conjdence  in  him  as  a  leader  in  a  constitutional  way.  The  witness 
is  asked  aj^ain  to  say  how  it.  is  that  having;  lost  contidence  in  the  jirisoner  he  aitreed  with 
him  to  deceive  the  peopli-  and  iiiaku  them  believe  that  he  wanted  to  ;,'o  wli'-n  he  knew  he 
did  nut  want  to  leave  the  cunntry.  He  says  that  the  prisoner  came  and  askfd  him  to  do 
that  because  Capt.  tJagnon  was  there  and  so  as  to  impress  the  (iovernmcnt.  and  be  says 
that  he  tliouulit,  that  at  tliat  time  they  expected  that  Mr.  (iatrnon  would  be  at  tlie 
meetinjr,  ami  it  would  lirinj;  a  satisfactory  result  for  ^Ir.  Kiel. 

The  witness  is  asked,  •■  In  other  words  you  wanted  to  juit  a  false  imjiression  on  Mr. 
Cii^uon  1,11  as  to  obtain  a  ;;pod  result  for  .Mr.  Riel."  And  the  witness  answers  :  "  No, 
not  ijit  all.      The  witness  is  asked  if  he  knew  the  prisoner  well,  and  lie  .says  yes. 

The  witness  is  asked  after  that  whether  didn't  they  startja  political  iiKu  emeiit  with  him 
ill' Manitoba,  and  he  .says  that  in  ^lanitoba  in  li^tiO  and  1K70  he  did  iifit  diii'ctly  start 
any  movement  with  the  prisoner.  And  then  he  is  asked  if  he  did  not  act  like  ]w  did  in 
this  ca.se,  if  he  did  not  .start  wiih  them  and  abamlon  them  and  he  says  yes.  He  says  that  he 
parti.ii)atecl  in  that  muveinent  as  long  as  he  thouj.dit  it  was  constitutional,  but  as  soon  its 
he  saw  it  was  not,  he  withdrew,     j 

The  witness  is  asked  if  subseipiently  to  the  rebellion  and  the  abandonment  that  he 
made  in  11^70,  if  he  was  not  appointed  Mini.ster  of  Agriculture,  and  he  .says  in    1M75  he 
was  appointed  .Minister  of  Agriculture.      He  is  asked   if  he  was  not   locjked   u|>on  as  one, 
of  till'  leaders  of  tlie  Half-breeds  of  the   Haskatchi'waii,  and  he  .says   he  was    looked  upon 
as  one  of  the  leaders. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  Father  Fourmoijd  did  not  wiuit  to  stop  Mr.  Riel  from  acting, 
and  he  says  it  may  be  so,  but  it  is  not  to  his  knowledge. 

The  wit iie.ss  says  there  was  a  meeting  on  the  24tli*  february.  He  knows  Father 
Andre  spoke  thei-e,  but  he  could  not  say  if  lie  asked  the  prisoner  to  remain,  and  lie  says 
he  niay  have  said  so. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  about  that  time,  in  fehruary,  there  had  not  been  a  dinner 
at  which  the  political  situation  of  the  Saskatchewan  was  discu.ssed  ?  And  he  says  he 
knows  of  one  on  the  6th  January.  The  witness  says  that  at  that  time  he  s|)oke,  but  he 
did  not  speak  much..    He  said  something  at  that  dinner,  but  he  did  not  speak   much. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  he  can  swear  that  at  that  dinner  it  was  not  sjioken  of  the 
grievances  of  tlie  Half-breeds  and  the  refusal  of  the  (iovernment  to  redress  them  1  .\nd 
the  witnejis  says  that  he  Wiis  |>resent  at  that  dinner,  and  that  to  his  knowledge  he  does 
not  remember  that  there  was  any  political  speech  at  that.  The  witness  says  that  he  had 
very  frequent  occasions  to  meet  Riel,  conversing  with  him  since  march  18.'^-1  till  the 
moment  they  disagreed. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  the  prisoner  ever  told  him  that  he  considered  himself  a  pro- 
phet, and  lie  says  yes'. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  after  the  meal  something  strange  did  not  happen,  if  there 
was  not  a  ((uestion  of  the  spirit  of  (iod  between  the  witness  and  the  prisoner?  The  witness 
says  it  was  not  after  a  dinner,  but  it  was  one  evening  they  were  spending  the  night  to- 
gether at  his  house,  and  there  was  a  noise  in  his  bowels  and  the  prisoner  asked  liim  if  he 
heard  that,  and  the  witness  says  yes,  and  then  the  pri.soner  told  him  that  was  his  liver, 
and  that  he  had  inspirations  which  worked  through  every  part  of  his  body. 

'i'lie  witness  is  asked  if  at  that  moment  the  prisoner  did  not  write   in  a   book  what 


'       99 

1 

he  was  inspired  of,  and  the  witness  answers  that  lie  did  not  write  in   ii  book,  ))Ut  on  a 
slifft  of  paper,  lie  said  he  was  inspired. 

The  witness  is  askfd  whether  he  ever  heard  the  prisoner  speak  of  liis  internal  policy 
ill  the  tlivision  ol  the  eountrv,  if  lie  sliouUI  sueeeetl  in  liis  enterprise,  and  he  says  yes.  He 
says  that  ar'ter  his  arrival  the  prisoner  showed  liiin  a  hoiik  written  with  butialo  lilood  and 
the  witness  said  that  the  prisoner  in  that  plan  said  that  after  taking  Kniiland  and  Canada, 
he  would  divide  Canada  and  give  the  jirovince  of  l^i^'hee  to  the  Prussians,  ( hitaiio  to 
the  Irish,  and  the  North- West  Territories  he  di\  iiled  into  ilill'eienl  parts  heiween  the 
European  nations,  lie  says  he  does  not  renieinher  them  all,  Init  the  Jews  were  to  have 
apart.  The  witness  says  tliai  he  thinks  he  also  spoke  of  the  Hungarians  and  Uavarians. 
He  savs  that  lie  thought  the  whole  world  should  have  a  piece  of  the  cake,  that,,J*russia 
was  to  hive  (Quebec.  The  witness  says  that  since  ls>s4  there  was  a  couiniittee  which  vas 
called  a  council.  The  witness  .says  he  was  one  of  the  nieUihern  ot  that  committee  or  council. 
He  was  oiilv  one  ordinary  iiieniber,  not  president.  Mr.  Andrew  Spence  was  President. 
He  was  un  Ir^uillsh  Half-breed  ;  he  said  the  council  coudeiiiued  him  Co  death  and  lilerated 
him  after  and  oll'eied  him  a  place  in   the  council.  ^ 

The  witness  is  aski-d  if  he  refused  that  position,  and  he  says  he  did  not  refuse  it  and 
that  he  accepted  it,  but  it  was  only  to  sa\  e  his  life  because  he  had  been  condemned  to 
death.  i'lie  witness  is  asked  if  he  was  present  at  the  meeting  at  I'riiiLC  .\lhirt,  ami  he 
savs  hf  was  not  there,  he  was  outside,  he  did  not  speak  there.  The. witness  says  that  hefore 
the  bittle  of  l)uck  Like  lie  saw  Kiel  going  about  with  a  Criicitix  about  a  foot  and  half 
long,  that  the  Crucili.v  had  been  taken  out  of  the  next  church,  near  by.  The  witness  is 
asked  if  it  is  not  true  chat  when  theie  was  a  iiuestion  in  the  Saskatchewan  of. the  police, 
the  character  of  the  prisoner  changed  completely,  and  that  he  hecame  very  excitable  and 
even  uncontrollable,  and  the  witness  says  that  whenever  the  word  police  was  pronounced 
he  got  very  e.>Lcite  I.  The  witness  is  asked  if  at  the  time  it  was  said  in  the  district  that 
500  police  would  be  sent  to  answer  the  petitiini  of  the  Half  breeds,  his  cliaracter  did  not 
become  very  excitable,  and  he  says  that  after  that  he  did  not  see  the  [uisoner,  but  before 
that,  whenever  the  word  police  was  pronounced  he  got  very  e.xcited.  He  says  that  what 
he  .said  here  was  about  the  month  of  January  or  even  February,  and  about  that  time 
Captain  t;ai.'non  passed  in  the  country  and  stoppeil  in  the  prisoner's  house  to  impiire  what 
was  the  niatl  ot  St.  Laurent,  auil  there  wa.s  only  the  ])risonei's  wife  and  ^Ir.  Duniont  in 
the  house,  and  when  the  prisoner  came  back  and  was  informed  that  Mr.  (iagnon  liad  been 
there,  he  got  verv  much  excited,  and  the  woman  could  not  exjdain  it,  what  Ca>.'non  had 
stopped  therefor,  and  he  got  very  e.xcited,  and  the  population  generally  .i,'ot  excited  too.  He 
does  not  know  whether  those  policemen  had  their  unif'ornis  on  or  not.  He  says  he  ci^nnot 
say  at  wiiat  dati^  that  was  that  Lianiion  passed  there,  but  he  says  he  heard  of  theoUO 
police  coining  to  the  country  only  after  arms  wer<'  taken  uji.  The  witness  tiays  that  one 
of  his  sons  was  arrested  after  the  tight  of  Batoche  and  that  he  was  brought  here  to  the 
Barracks  and  was  relea.sed  within  the  last  few  davs.  The  witness  is  asked  if  he  Jiad  any 
intlueiice,  and  he  says  he  does  not  know  what  intiuence  he  could  exercise,  he  says  tlial  at 
any  rate  he  has  been  put  at  liberty  since.  The  witness  came  to  Regina  to  give  his  evi- 
dence in  this  case. 

r 

,i,  . 

'£.vainiiiatioa  of  Mr.  Ciiahles  Nolin'  continued  through  the  interpreter. 

The  witness  is  asked  if   the  council  which  he  spoke  of  a  while  ago  and  which  was" 
jn-esided  over  liy  Mr.   Andrew  Spence,  was  the  same  as  that  which  condemned  him  to 
death,  and  he  says  no. 

Mr.  JustlcE  RicHARDSO.v,  That  is,  the, old  council  was  not  the  council  that 
condemned  him  to  death. 

Witness  says  that  the  Council  that  condemned  him  toaleath  was  not  that  which 
was  called  ex  ovid. 

Witness  is  asked  if  prisoner  had  separated  from  the  clergy,  and  he  .says  completely. 
He  sivs  the  Half-breeds  are  a  jieople  who  need  religion.  Religion  has  a  great  intiuence  on 
their  mind.  The  witness  is  asked  if  without  religion  the  prisoner  could  have  succeeded  in 


•  100 

briii.;iii;^  t!ie  tlalf-ljreeds  with  him,  and  the  witness  answers  no.  It  would  never  have 
succeeded.  If  tlie  pri.soiier  had  not  made  liiuiscU'  appear  as  a  prophet,  he  would  never 
have  succeeded  in  liriujjiujj  the  Half-breeds  with  hiui. 

By  Mr.  Leuiieux,  recross-exaniination. 

The  witness  is  asked  if  the  prisoner  did  not  lose  a  <:;reat  deal  of  his  influence  in 
tliat  wiy  by  the  fact  tliat  lie  lost  tlie  inHuence  of  the  Clergy,  and  he  says  that  at  the 
time  he  gained  iutiuence  by  woricing  against  the  Clergy  and  by  malting  himself  out  as  a 
prophet.  The  witness  is  asked  if  he  means  that  the  people  did  not  have  confidence  in 
tlu^  Cler^'y,  and  ln'  says  no,  but  he  says  they  were  ignorant  and  he  was  taking  advan- 
tage of  their  ignorance  and  their  simplicity.        ^i 


Thomas  Saxderson  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  Robinson. 

^    '    Tiiere  is  a  paper  which  has  not  been  read  yet   and  which  was  proved   by  the  witness 
Japksni.     It  is  dated  l-'ith  May,  188-5.      It  ^s  addressed  to  General  Middleton. 

Major-Oener.il  Frederick  Middleton  : 

General — I  have  received  only  to-day  yours  of  the  13th,  but  our  Council  have 
dispersed.  I  wish  you  would  let  them  quiet  and  free.  I  hear  that  presently  you  are 
absent.  Would  I  go  to  Batoohe,  who  is  going  to  receive  me  J  I  will  go  to  fulfil  God's 
will.  -  ■ 

(Signed),  .  ' 

LOUIS  "  DAVID"  RIEL,  e.,-  ovid. 
1.5th  May,  1885. 

Mr.  Justice  Richardsos. — Was  that  document  proved  ? 

>    Mr.  OsLEB. — It  was  proved  by  Jackson,  no  19.  • 

Mr.  Robissos. — Q.  I  believe  you  are  a  farmer  living  at  Garrot  River  settlement  ? 
—A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the'"20tsh  of  March  last,  do  you  remember  that  day  ? — A.  I  do 
not  exactly  remember  that  date. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  remember  Gordon  coming  to  you  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  .\  bout  w^heu  was  that  ? — A.  I  think  it  was  about  the  20th.  I  don't  exactly 
recollect  the  date. 

Q.   Was  it  at  your  house  ? — A.   At  my  father's  house. 

Q.  What  did  he  desire  you  to  do  ? — A.  To  go  with  him,  to  conduct  him  to  meet 
Colonel  Irvine. 

Q.  He  >vished  you  to  go  with  him,  to  conduct  him  to  meet  colonel  Irvine  ? — A. 
Yes. 

Q.  Where  was  colonel  Irvine  represented  to  be  coming  from  1 — \.  Coming  from 
Qu'Appelle. 

Q.  And  what  were  you  to  do,  to  show  Mr.  Gordon  the  way  ?^.\.  He  did  not  know 
the  way  and  requested  me  to  take  him  through  the  woods  to  avoid  the  rebels. 

Q.  How  far  were  you  taken  1 — A.  To  Hoodoo,  away  as  far  as  I  possibly  could  to 
secure  his  safety  and  the  safety  of  the  despatches  he  carried. 

Q.  .He  was  carrying  despatches,  and  he  wished  you  to  take  him  through  the  woods 
to  avoid  tlie  rebels  ?  —A.   Yes. 

Q.   How  far  did  you  go  with  him  1 — A.  To  Hoodoo. 


101  » 

Q.  How  far  is  Hoodoo? — A.  About  fifty  miles,  it  i^  between  Batoche  and  Humlwldt. 

Q.   When  did  you  got  there  ? — \.    About  nooii  of  thf  following  day. 

Q.  Wliat  did  you  find  when  you  got  there  ?— A.  I  found  Mr.  Woodcock  who  was 
then  in  charge  of  Hoodoo  station,  and  another  man  whose  name  I  don't  knriw  who  liad  just 
come  there  with  a  load  of  oats. 

Q.  Wluit  do  you  mean  by  a  stsuion,  is  it  a  mail  Mation  ? — A.  A, mail  stoj.ping  place- 
Tliere  were  also  two  other  men  with  sleighs  loaded  with  Hour  and  goods,  for  Carlton,  I 
think  tliey  told  me.  .     > 

Q.    For  whom  ? — A.   I  think  for  the  HuJlson  Bay  Co  but  I  anx  not  positive. 

Q.  Wlio  were  the  men? — A.  Mr.  IsbisteiAand  another  I  think  who  was  called  Camp- 
bell,  I  have  seen  the  man  often  before,  and  Ilthink  that  is  his  name. 

Q.  What  happened  while  you  were  there  ? — A.  On  towards  tlie  evening  while  I  was 
out  washing  about  the  store,  I  saw  two  Half-breeds  as  I  suppose,  coming  along  in  jumpers 
and  I  .stepped  inside  and  told  Woodcock  the  rel>els  were  coming  for  us,  and  v.ent  out 
again  and  tinislied  my  washing  and  then  they  drove  up  to  the  door,  drf>Ve  up  along  the 
road,  got  out  of  their  jumpeis  and  walked  into  the  house  and  1  asked  them  what  was 
going  on  at  Batouhe,  and  they  said  nothing  mticli,  and  I  asked  if  Mr.  Kiel  wa.^  taking 
prisoners  and  they  said  tiiat  they  had  got  some,  and  [  asked  if  they  were  getting  a  gocxl 
deal  of  tlour  and  he  said  the)'  were  getting  a  goo<l  deal,  and  I  sat  down  to  sujiper  and 
they  went  on  conversing  among  themselves. 

Q.  What  else  took  place  that  you  remember  ? — A.  At  supper  a  few  more  came  in.  I 
said  '"getting  pretty  thick,  I  guess  I  will  go  outside  and  see  if  there  are  any  more  out- 
side," I  went  outside  and  found  about  twenty  ortwenty-tive  armed  men,  and  returned 
and  finished  my  supper.  ~  ^ 

Q.  What  did  you  do  ne.xt  ? — A.  There  was  one  stepped  up  and  said  he  had  a  letter 
for  Woodcock.  I  handed  him  the  letter,  on  a  small  slip  of  paper,  and  he  read  it,  he  handed 
it  to  me  to  read  and  I  think  it  stated  that  :  We  have  been  told  that  you  are  going  to  fur- 
nish the  police  now  coming  up  with  hay  and  oats,  if  you  do  we  will  consider  you  a  rebt-l. 
Signed  (Jarnot. 

Q.  Well  what  else  was  said  or  done  ? — A.  I  said  they  hadn't  oilght  to  consider  him  a 
rebel  at  all,  that  he  was  simply  performing  his  duty  and  if  Mr.  Irvine  had  ordersto  get 
hay  and  oats  there,  he  would  certainly  have  to  give  them  to  him  and  that  I  did  not  think 
they  should  consider  him  a  rebel  on  such  grounds  or  an  enemy  to  them,  with  the  idea 
probably  of  them  getting  or  leaving  them  there.  They  said  anyway  they  had  to  take  him 
prisoner  and  take  him  to  Batoche,  and  1  spoke  up  in  his  defence  and  they  said  they 
were  going  to  take  me  also. 

Q.    Did  they  take  you  too  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now  was  there  a  Mr.  Isbister  there  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   And  they  took  you  both  to  Batoche  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  did  you  get  there  ? — A.  I  should  say  about  11  or  12  o'clock,  I  am  not 
positive. 

Q.  How  many  went  with  you  ? — A.  I  think  there  were  either  seven  or  feiglit  in  my 
sleigh  and  about  the  same  in  Woodcock's.  >  , 

Q.   Armed  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.   What  did  they  do  to  Mr.  Isbister  ? — A.    I  don't  know,  he  was  left  there  when  I 
■  came  away. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  they  took  his  freight  or  not  ? — .\.  I  saw  him  ne.vt  day 
in  Batoche,  and  I  think  they  did  not,  but  I  am  not  positive. 


102 

Q.  You  got  to. Batoche  about  twelve   I  think  ? — A.  I  did,  about  twelve. 

Q.  And  what  happeiierl  thera? — A.  I  was  taken  out  of  the  sleigh  and  taken  into  the 
church. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  se6  there  l^\.  Well  I  was  not  acquainted  with  any  of  them.  1 
knew  one  was  GaltricI  Duniont,  I  had  seen  him  before  and  knew  him  by  sight. 

Q.  How  many  did  you  see  ? — A.  I  sliould  say  about  300  around  tlie  church  and 
in  the  church  that  night. 

Q.   "Hiat  was  the  21st  ?— A.    I  think  it  was  the  21st. 

Q.   Were  they  armed  ? — A.   Nearly  all  that  1  saw  were  armed. 

Q.  Were  they  all  Half-breeds  or  any  of  them  Indians  ? — A.  Some  Indians  and  .some 
Half-breeds.      It  was  after  night  and  I  could  not  distinguish  them. 

Q.  How  long  did  they  keep  you  ? — A.  Dumont  got  up  and  made  a  speech  of  some 
length.  I  should  say  it  took  iiim  about  an  hour,  and  afterwards  an  Indian  got  uj)  and 
made  a  spe.'ch  that  lasted  about  half  an  hour,  and  then  there  were  a  good  deal  of  talking, 
and  they  took  us  away  ta  the  council  house. 

Q.   Near  tlic  church  ? — A.    A  little  u|)  the  I'oad  from  the  church 

Q.   What  happened    when  you  got  there  ?  —A.   Tlu'n^  were  several  men  around  tlie 
lower  story,  some  eating  and  some   talking  and  so   on,    and   tliey  kept  me  there  till  Mr. 
r     Riel  came.  i  .     .1 

Q.  And  what  did  he  say  or  do  ? — .\.  I  wa3  then  conducted  upstiiirs  as  I  suppose 
into  the  council  room.     Mr.  Riel  asked  me  what  I ■ 

Q.  Were  they  sitting  as  a  Council  around  a  table?^~A.  ;I  don't  know,  they  were 
^sitting  around  the  taltle  and  around  the  house  in  all  shapes  possible. 

Q.  Was  any  body  acting  as  Secretary  ?— .\.  Yes,  f)ne  wliom  I  afterwards  knew  as 
Garnot  was  acting  as  Secretary.  Mr.  Riel  asked  me  wiiat  I  was  al)Out,  and  I  told  him  I 
(lid  not  knojv  what  he  meant.  He  says  "what  are  you  about"  and  1  says  ''I  don't  know 
what  you  brought  me  here  for.''  Says  he,  "where  do  J'ou  come  from"  t  said  I  come  from 
(iarrot  riveft      He  says  "I  consider  you  mj-  ejieuiy,"  and  I  says  "all-right." 

Q.  Well,  what  more? — A.  He  asked  Mr.  Woodcock  some  ijuestions,  I  am  not 
positive  what  the  ijuestions  were,  that  is  all  .tliat  was  said  to  him  till  morning. 

Q.  Wliiit  took  place' in  the  morning  ?  -.\.  In  the  morning  I  re(|uestod  an  interview 
with  Mr.  Rifl  and  he  gave  nu-  one.  I  asked  him  wliat  1  was  brought  there  for,  what  he 
hatl  against^iiie,  and  he  said  he  considered  me  an  enemy,  and  I  asked  him  why.  And  he 
said  he  considered  all  the  people  at  (Jarrot  ri\er  as  his  enemies,  and  1  told  him  I  did  not 
know  any  ner\son  there  who.  wei- •  against  him  in  tlie  movement  before  he  took  u[)  arms, 
and  when/1  left  there  they  did  not  know  he  had  taken  up  arms  aiifl  1  said  as  far  as  I 
was  concerned,  I  was  not  his  enemy  altlmugli  I  would  not  take  u)i  arms  to  defend  him, 
and  I  thcught  my  l)est  idan  was  to  make  some  way  to  get  out  of  there  if  I  possibly 
•  could,  for  I  Was  in  a  bad  bo.x.  1  was  then  taken  to  a  house  that  I  was  told  afterwards 
was  Gai-not's,  where  I  found  other  prisoners. 

Q.  .\nd  what  took  place  then  ? — A.  I  don't  just  recollect  everything  that  took 
place  there  was  so  much. 

Q.   Well,  what  conversation  had  you  with  the  jirisoner  ? — A.   AVitli  Riel  ? 

Q.  Yes. — A.  He  came  and  asked  me  down  that  forenoon, I  think  it  was  in  the  forenoon, 

and  he  wanted  me  to  speak  to  him.    He   asked  if   I  knew   there  was  any  jiolice  coming 

and  I  told  him  I  thought  there  was,  but  I  was  not  sure,  and  he  said  he  had  been  told  there 

were  oOO  coming,  and  he  asked  me  if   I   thought   it  was  true,  and  I  told  liim  I  guesse<l  it 

.  was,  that  I  thought  there  was  500  coming*  he  asked  if  I  thought  there  was.      I  forget 


103  ^  ,       . 

now  liow  he  mentioned  it,  any  way  a  deputation  to  settle  his  grievances  was  coming  with 
them  and  I  told  hira  I  thought  they  were  coming,  something  to  that  eflect,  that  they 
were  coming  to  try  to  settle  this  reliellion. 

(^.   A  deputation  was  coming  to  try  and  settle  this  rebellion  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  mean  the  500  policemen  were  the  deputation  ? — A.  Xo,  I  meant  that  there 
were  other  jiarties  with  the  500  policemen.  _  '  i 

Q.   Now,  did  he  talk  to  you  about  his  grievances  and  what  they  were,  or  anything^ 
else  ? — A.   Not  at  the  time. 

Q.  Well  when  did  he,  if  at  any  time? — A.  He  did  after  the  Duck  Lake  battle,  and  I  ■ 
think  the  day  before,  I  had  several  conversations  with  Mr.  Kiel.   I  could  not  just  lecollect       %_ 
what  he  .said.      He  did  talk  to  me  about  them  after  the  Duck   Lake   battle,  and  I  think 
the  day  before. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  about  his  grievances  or  what  were  the  grievances  ?  -  A.  I  could  not 
state  positi\i'ly  what  he  did  chvim  as  grievances,  there  were  three  grievances  and  other 
things,  I  don't  exactly  recollect  wlint  the  conversation  was. 

Q.  Were  they  general  grievances  or  personal  grievances  ?— A.  General  grievances  Be 
spoke  to  me  of. 

Q.  Well,  what  took  place  next,  how  long  were  you  kept  there  ' — A.  1  think  I  was 
kept  there  till  Wednesday  in  Batocheyl  am  not  positive.  I 

Q.   .\nd  what  happened  there? — .\.   Till  the  thiy  before  the  Duck  Lake  fight,  and  I  s 
was  then  taken  tn  Duck  Lake.  ■ 

Q.  With  an  armed  guard  % — K.   With  an  armed  guard.  •  .  [ 

Q.  .\nd  where  were  you  put  there  ? — .\.  In  the  upstairs  of  Mr.  Mitchell's  house,  at 
least  I  was  informed  it  was  Mitchells. 

(\.  With  other  prisoners  ? — .\.  Yes,  Mr.  Peter  Tompkins,  Mr.  Lash,  William  Tomp- 
kins and  Mr.  Woodcock. 

(j.   Did  you  see  the  people  coming  over,  the  body  of  the  Half-breeds  and  so  on  coming 
to  Duck  Lake  ? — .\.  I  Siiwthem  leaving  Batoche  and  going  to  Duck  Lake  the  night  pre-        ' 
vious.  *  1^ 

(^.  About  liow  many  / — .\.   1  should  sa^fcetween  400  and  500.  • 

(^.  Was  lliel  with  them  < — .\.   I  did  not  see  him. 

Q.   Did  you  see  Kiel  at  Duck  Lake  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.   When  .' — .\.   Before  going  out  to  the  battle,  and  coming  back  from  it. 

Q.  Did  you  see  ,  him  actually  going  out  to  the  battle  ? — .\.  Y'es,  I  saw  him  going 
out  of  the  yard  towards  where  the  police  were  coming.  .  . 

Q.   With  others?— .\.   With  aljout  between  twenty  and  thirty  men. 

(,).  .\nd  you  saw  him  coming  back  from  it  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Wfll,  when  he  came  back  did  you  hear  hiui  .say  anything  ! — A.  I  heard  him 
speaking  but  1  could  not  understand  him  for  he  spoke  in  either  French  or  Cree,  I  coidd 
not  say  which. 

Q.  Did  he  come  and  .speak  to  you  at  all? — .\.  He  did,  after  speaking  to  them  he 
came  upstairs  and  brought  up  Charles  Newitt,  the  wounded  man. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  about  him  ? — ^A.  He  told  us  it  was  about  the  best  thing  he  could 
do  with  a  wounded  man,  that  he  thought  we  would  take  bett«r  care  of  him  than  his  own 
men  would,  and  I  thanked  him  for  bringing  him  up  to  us,  and  he  then  went  down  stairs. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  anything  about  the  battle? — \.  Yes,  he  did.  After  he  came  back 


104 

I  asked  him  how  many  were  killed,  and  he  said  nine  and  he  thought  there  were  more,  biit 

nine  were  left  on  the  tield,  he  thought  a  good  many  Ment  away  on  the  sleigh. 

^         ■  * 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  anything  else,  about  the  battle  ? — A.  I  asked  him  who  tired  tirst 
and  he  said  the  poliee,  and  he  said  afterwards  he  then  gave  orders  to  his  men  to  tire,  three 
distinct  orders. 

Q.  Did  he  .say  how  he  giivethe  orders? — A.  "  In  the  name  of  the  Father  Almighty  I 
■command  you  to  tire,"  was  the  tirst  time.  I  think  those  are  as  near  the  words  as  I  can 
rejieat  them.  I  think  he  said  the  second  time,  "  in  the  name  of  Our  Saviour  who 
redeemed  us  I  command  you  to  fire,"  and  the  third  tinre  "  in  the  name  of  the  Father, 
Son  and  Hbly  Ghost  I  command  you  to  fire." 

r 

Q.  Then  liow  long  did  you  remain  at  Duck  Lake  ? — A.  Till  next  day. 

Q.  And  where  were  you  taken  then? — A.  I  asked  Mr.  Kiel  what  he  was  going  to 
do  with  the  dejid  bodies  the  day  of  the  battle,  and  he  told  me  that  he  did  not  know,  that 
they  would  consi<ler.  I  said  he  ought  to  send  some  word  to  major  Crozier,  and  let  him 
know  and  allow  him  to  come  and  take  away  the  bodies,  and  he  said  that  he  would  consider 
tliH  matter  and  see  his  council.  Afterwards  he  came  back  up  there  and  1  asked  him  what  he 
was  going  to  do  and  he  said  they  wert^  afraid  to  .send  one  of  the  men  for  fear  Major 
Crozier  would  keep  hrm  prisoner.  I  told  him  if  he  would  send  me  I  would  come  back 
and  give  mysi'lf  up  again  as  a  prisoner,  and  he  .said  he  would  consider  it  and  he  after- 
wards concluded  to  send  one  of  tlie  men  and  then  finally  he  came  himself  and  told  me  he 
would  send  me. 

Q.   Did  he  give  you  any  letter  to  take  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Is  that  the  letter  he  gave  you  (showing  witness  a  paper)  ?— A.  Well,  I  could  not 
say  for  I  never  saw  the  letter  only  while  he  was  writing  it,  .so  that  I  could  not  actually 
give  any  evidence  on  the  letter,  I  could  not  swear  to  it. 

Q.  You  could  not  identify  the  letter  or  swear  to  the  letter  ?  -  No,  I  did  not  see 
it  Afterwards. 

Q.   Did  you  give  the  letter  ?— A.   I  did. 

Q.  To  whom  ? — A.  To  Major  Croziei'. 

Q.  And  what  happened  then  ?  — .\.  The  next  that  happened  I  wasdetained  by  the  police 
then  and  was  not  allowed  to  go  back  as  I  had   promised  to  do  to  Mr.  Riel. 

Q.   Did  you  assist  in  bringing  the  dead  from  the  field  t — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Well,  did  Riel  ask  you  any  ([uestion  afti-r  coming  back  from  Duck  Lake  at  all  ? — 
A.  Yes,  he  asked  me  about  the  police.     He  had  reijuAted  while  going  witli  his  message 

to  tell  tlie    ]>e<i|)le,  tlie  volunteers,  that    lie    (lid    uotwlsli^    to  fight    them,  that   he   wished 

tiiem  to  remain  neutral  and  afterwards  help  him  to  establish  a  government,  and  wlien  I 
went  back  to  i*uck  Lake  I  told  him  I  had  told  the  pfi>j)le  this,  which  was  a  lie.  I  told 
him  also  that  I  was  taken  prisoner  by  Major  Crozier, 'and  put  into  the  cells,  which  was 
true,  and  that  I  was  afterwards  taken  to  Prince  .Vlbert  liy  Major  Crozier,  that  the 
volunteers  there  kiokecL  because  I  was  taken  prisoiter,!  that  Majoi'   Crozier  was  afraid   to 

stay  and  left  Carlton  and  went  to  Prince  Albert.  That  was  lies  also. 

Q.   That  is  the  information  you  gave  Mr.  Riel  ? — A.  That  Igave  Mr  Riel. 

Q.  .\nd  then  what  happened  to  you  ? — A.  Before  giving  him  this  information,  he 
asked  me  aboutUhem  and  I  told  him  that  I  had  refused  to  tell  anything  about  them 
without  he  told  me  whether  I  was  to  go  back  to  the  prisoners,  and  whether  I  would  be 
allowerl  to  go  at  large,  go  free,  and  he  said  I  would  be  allowed  to  go  free,  so  then  1  spun 
him  a  little  yarn. 

Q.  Who  wrote  this  letter  you  took  to  Major  Crozier  ? — A.  I  could  not  say  jiositively, 


105 


Mr.  Riel  was  writing  so  was  Mr.  Garnot  and  they  had  a  great  time  getting  up  the  letter, 
so  I  don't  know  which  1  could  say. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean  by  a  great  time  ? — A.  Tliey  wrote  so  many  of  them  and 
destroyed  them. 

Q.  They  wrote  more  than  one  before  they  got  one  to  suit  them  ? — -A.  Yes. 

Q.   And  finally  they  finished  one  and  gave  it  to  you? — A.   Yes.  ^ 

By  Mr.  Greenshields. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  were  taken  prisoner  did  Riel  take  any  part  in  it  ? — A.  No, 
I  did  not  see  him. 

Q.   It  was  only  after  you  been  had  taken  prisoner  that  you  saw  him  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  at  the  time  you  sjioke  to  him  regarding  the  formation  of  a  governriient,  did 
he  give  you  any  idea  of  wiuit  kind  of  a  government  he  proposed  forming  ? — A.  Yes,  he 
was  going  to  divide  the  country  into  seven  parts,  one  part  was  to  be  for  the  Canadians, 
or  white  settlers,  one  seventh,  another  seventh  for  the  Indians,  another  seventh  for  the 
Half-breeds,  and  he  named  over  what  he  was  going  to  do  with  the  rest,  I  don't  recol- 
lect the  names  of  the  people. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  he  was  going  to  give  over  other  sevenths  to  otlier  nationalities, 
the  Poles,  Hungarians  and  Bavarians  and  Jews  ? — A.   He  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  him  say  anything  about  giving  a  portion  of  it  to  the  Germans  ? — A- 
No,  not  to  my  knowledge.  He  named  over,  I  think  it  was  three-sevenths  of  it  was  to 
remain  to  support  the  Government. 

Q.  That  was  for  himself,  I  suppose  ? — A.  Yes, 'l  suppose,  for*^he  Go\ernment  he 
was  aliout  to  establish. 

Q.  Now,  that  was  about  the  extent  of  the  conversation  with  him  regarding  this 
Government  ? — A.   Yes,  that  was  about  the  extent  of  it. 

Q.  He  did  not  say  anything  about  expecting  assistance  from  foreign  powers  in  his 
undertaking  ? — A.   No,  he  did  not. 

Q.   Did  he  talk  to  you  anything  about  religion  ?^A.   Yes. 

Q:  What  did  he  tell  you  about  that  ? — A.  He  told  me  he  had  cut  himself  loose 
from  Rome  altogether,  and  would  have  nothing  more  to  do  with  the  Pope,  that  they  were 
not  going  to  pay  taxes  to  Rome.  He  said  if  they  still  kept  on  with  Rome  they  eouid  not 
agree  with  the  Canadian  and  white  people  who  came  there  to  live,  becau.se  their  Govern- 
ment would  have  to  keep  allljrotestants  out  of  the  country,  if  thay  kept  on  with  Rome. 

Q.  That  is,  if  the  Rit^l  Government  kept  on  witli  Rome  they  would  have  to  keep  all 
Protestants  out  of  the  country  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  abandoning  Rome  they  would  be  able  to  allow  Protestants  to  come  into  the 
country  ? — A.    Yes,  that  is  what  I  understood  from  him. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  mention  anything  to  you  of  who  was  to  succeed  the  Pope  .?-~tA.  He 
did  not. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  he  was  going  to  play  Pope  for  the  North- West  Territories  ? — 
A.    He  did  not. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  explain  to  you  any  of  the  principles  of  the  religion  that  he  was 
founding? — A.  No,  by  th(!  way  he  spoke  to  me,  the  religion  was  Just  the  same,  any 
more  than  he  had  cut  himself  from  the  Pope. 


106 


Robert  Jefferson  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  Casgrain. 

Q.   In  the  course  of  this  last  Spring,  I  believe  you  were  in  Poundniaker's  reserve, 
■were  you  not  ? — A.   I  was. 

Q.  In  his  eaiup/— A.  In  his  camp. 

Q.  About  what  month  ? — A.  The  end  of  March  and  April  and  May,  I  don't  believe 
it  was  the  whole  of  May  though. 

Q.  La.st  ?— A.  Yes.  .  . 

Q.  Who  is  Pounduuiker  ? — A.  He  is  one  of  the  chiefs  of  the  Cree  tribe. 

Q.  Had  he  a  baud  of  Indians  with  him? — A.    He  had  a  Itand  of  Indians.     '  , 

Q,  A  large  baud  ?— A.   Yes,  he  had  a  large  l)and. 

Q.    Do  you  rei-ognize  this  letter  (No.  18),  and  if  so,  where  did  you  see  it  ? — A.  Well, 
I  have  seen  it  twice. 

Q.   Where  did  you  see  it  the  first  time  ? — -A.   I  saw  it  the  first  time  in  the  camp,  and 
the  second  time  it  was  iu  the  camp  too. 

Q.    You  saw  it   twice   in  the  camp? — A.   Twice   in  the   camp,  yes,  once  after  the 
capitulation  aifd  the  other  before. 

Q.  Whose  hands  was  it  in  the  first  time  you  saw  it  ? — A.  It  was  in  the  hands  of 
Poundmaker.  1 

Q.   And  the  second  time  ? — A.  The  second   time   it  was  in  the  hands   of  Pound- 
maker's  wife. 

Q.  How  did  it  get  tHfere,  into  the  camp,  in  Poundniaker's  hands  ? — A.  It  was  brought 
in  by  Delonue  and  Chic-i-cura. 

Q.  What  Was  his  Christian  name,  do  you  rememljer  ? — A.  I  could  not  say. 

Q.   He  was  a  Half-breed  ? — A.  He  was  a  Half-breed,  yes. 

Q.  From  where  ? — A.  From  Duck  Lake. 

Q.  Chic-i-cum  is  an  Indian,  is  he  not  ? — A.   Yes. 

I        Q.   Do  you  remember  the  battle  of  Cut  Knife  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Was  this  before  or  after  the  battle  of  Cut  Knife  ? — A,  It  was  before  considerably. 

Q.  Was  it  after  the  battle  of  Duck  Lake  ? — A.  Yes,  it  was  after  the  battle  of 
Duck  Luke. 

Q.   When  was  the  battle  of/Out  Knife  fought? — A.   I  could  not  say  the  date. 

Q.   About  what  time  ? — Ai  About  the  beginning  of  May.  , 


[I 


Examined  by  Mr.  GREBNsiiiEL'ljaw^ 
A 


Q.   Was  Poundmaker  reading  this  letter  at  the  time  that  you  saw  it  in  his  hands  ?- 
No,  he  wa.s  not. 


Q.   Do  you  know  whether  he  can  read  or  not  ? — A.   I  do. 

Q.   Does  he  read  English  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  Does  he  read  Fi-ench  ? — A.  No,  nor  French,  he  does  not  read  at  all. 

Q.   What  was  he   doing   with   the   letter  when  you   saw  it  in  his  hands  ? — A.  The 
letter  was  brought  to  him. 


Q.  Handed  to  him  1—^.  Yes. 
Q.   In  your  presence  ? — A.   No. 


107 

Q.  Did  you  see  it  brought  to  him  1 — A.  No,  I  could  not  say  that  I  saw  it  brought 
to  him. 

Q.  Well,  how  do  you  know  that  the  letter  was  brought  to  him  ? — ^A.  Well,  every 
one  said  it  was  brought  to  him.  ■ 

Q.  But  you  don't  know  anything  about  it  yourself  ? — A.  I  beg  your  pardon,  I  know 
it  was  brought  to  hini,  he  said  it  was  brought  to  him.  / 

Q.  Who  said  so  ? — A.   Poundmaker. 

Q.  But  you  don't  know  of  your  personal  knowledge  it  was  brought  to  him  ?— A.  Xo, 
I  did  not  see  it  brought  to  him. 

Q.  What  was  he  doing  with  it  when,  you  saw  it  in  his  hands,  was  he  looking  at  it 
as  a  matter  of  curiosity,  or  what  ? — A.   No,  I  believe  he  was  going  to  put  it  awav. 

Q.   Did  he  know  what  it  was  1 — A.   Yes,  he  knew  what  it  was. 

Q.  He  knew  it  was  a  letter,  eh  ? — A.   He  knew  it  was  a  letter. 

Q.  Did  he  ask  you  to  read  it  for  him  ? — A.  Xo,  he  did  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  yourself,  now,  where  he  got  that  letter,  how  he  got  it,  of  your  own 
personal  knowledge,  not  what  he  told  you  or  anybody  alse  told  you,  but  of  j'our  own 
personal  knowledge? — A.  Xo,  I  don't. 

Q.   Youw)n't  know  anything  about  it,  do  you  ? — A.   Xo.  i 

Q.  You  don't  e\-en  know  whether  it  was  intended  for  Poundmakei'  or  not,  do  you  ? 
—A.  Not  of  my  own  jiersonal  knowledge. 

>   Re-examined  by  Mr.  Casgraix. 

Q.  Was  this  letter  read  to  Poundmaker  ? — A.  It  was. 

Q.    By  whom  ? — A.   By  the  man  that  brought  it. 

Q.   Was  it  interpreted  to  him  ?  — A.   It  was  interpreted  to  him. 

By  Mr.  Greensiiields. 

Q?  How  do  you  know  it  was  read  to  him  ? — A.   I  heard  them  read  it.     .  ■'■ 

Q.  Where  were  you  when  it  was  read  ? — A.   I  was  there  when  he 

Q.  Do  you  understand  Frencii  ? — A.  I  don't  understand  very  much  of  it. 

Q.   Did  you  have  the  letter  in  your  hands  ? — A.   I  did,  yes. 

Q.  Was  it  read  in  English  to  Poundmaker  or  in  French,  or  how,  or  Cierman,-or  what  ? 
— A.  It  was  translated  for  him  I  believe,  itAvas  read  in  French  first,  I  am  not  certain  about 
it  though. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  it  was  translated  to  him  ? — A.  Well,  I  heard  what  was  called 
a  translatioii  of  it. 

Q.   What  were  you  doing  about  that  time  ? — A.   I  was  listening. 

Q.  Now,  how  do  you  know  it  was  translated  if  you  never  read  the  letter  ? — A.  I 
never  said  I  never  read  the  letter. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  read  it  ? — A.   I  did  read  it. 

Q.   Before  or  after  it  was  translated  ? — A.   After  this. 

Q.  After  it  was  translated  ? — A.  After  it  was  translated. 

Q.  Let  us  hear  you  read  it  now  and  tell  us  what  is  in  it  ? — A.  But  I  have  heard 
^our  translation  here 


108 


Q.  You  saiil-7Tnr-4tB<tf<rttrat  translated,  because  you  understood  it,  now-  let  us  hear 
what  that  letter  means,  not  wiiat  anybody  told  you  or  what  you  heard,  hut  we  want  to 
know  what  your  knowledge  of  the  contents  of  that  letter  is  ? — A.   (reading  the    lettei'  as 

follows  :) sinee  we  wrote  to  you.  important  events  have  occurred,  the    Half-lireeds 

and  tSavages  and  Indians  of  Fort  Battleford  and  vicinity,  since  we  wrote  to  you  important 
events  have  occurred,  the  Police  came  to  attack  and  we  encountered  them.  God  has 
given  us  victory  :  30  Half-hreeds  and  .t  Crees  have  sustained  the  liattle  against  1 20  men, 
after  tliirty-tive  or  forty  minutes  of   tire   the  enemies  took  flight,      iiless  (iod  .... 

Q.  Now,  did  you  read  the  letter  before  it  was  translated  in  language  to  Pound- 
maker  ? — A.   No,  I  read  it  afterwards. 

Q.  And  he  read  it  in  French  first  of  all  t»  Poundmaker  and  then  afterwards  in 
English  ? — A.  Th  Ml  ai'terwards  in  Cree.  I  think  he  read  it  in  French  first,  but  I  am  not 
sure.  "N  ,  , 

-Mr.  Justice  Ricuardsos. 

Q.   Do  you  understand  Cree  ? — A.  Oh,  yes. 

-Mh.  Robinson — -1  think,  your  Honor,  that  that  will  be  the  last  witne.ss  for  tlie  Crown. 
I  am  not  (fuite  sure  till  to-inorrow,  and,  of  course  we  will  adjourn  now,  it  being  6  o'clock. 

Court  here  adjourned  till  10  A.  ^I.  to-morrow.  / 


\riiER    Alexis    \NnuK,  sworn,   examined  by   Mr.  Lemieux.  >Ir.  F.  R.  ^I.\kce.\u   Vjeing 
interpreter, 

Q.  What  is  your  name  in  religion! — A.  Alexis  .\ndrt',  <  (blat.  1  wfiuld  prefer  to 
S|ieak  in  French.  I  understand  the  English  very  well,  but  in  speaking  it,  it  is  ((uite  a 
different  matter. 

Q.  You  are  the  Superior  of  the  Oblats  in  the  district  of . . . .  1 — A.  Carlton. 

.;  Q.  For  how  long  '/ — A.   Since  seven  years.     ' 
:  _  s  ..." 

Q.   Since  how  long  have  you  been  livimg  in  the  country  ! — \.   I  lived  in  the  country 

since  I860,  in  the  Saskatchewan. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  population  and  the  ha^jits  of  the  people? — A.  For  twenty-five 
years  I  liavcbeen  continually  with  the  Half-breeds  of  the  Saskatchewan  above  and  below, 
I  was  with  the  same  population  in   Dakota  for  four  years. 

Q.  You  have  been  with  Half-breeds,  Catholics  and  Protestants  ? — .\.  They  were 
mi.x£d  up  in  the  colony,  and  J  knew  a  great  many  both  of  the  Catholic  and  Protestant 
Half-breeds,  and  had  a  great  niany  friends  among  the  Protestants. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  '84  and  '8.5.  Do  you  remember  the  events  of  those  years  ? — 
A.   Yes  very  well. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  the  circumstances  under  which  the  prisoner  came  into  thi^ 
Saskatchewan  country  in  84  l — ^A.  Yes,  I  remember  very  well. 

Q.  At  that  time  there  was  an  agitation  in  the  Saskatchewan  about  certain  rights 
the  Half-l)reeds  claimed  they  had  against  the  Federal  go\ crniiient  .'—A.  Ves,  about  three 
months  before  there  was  au  agitation  among  the  English  and  FKeiuh  Half-breeds. 

Q.  State  what  were  tlie  claims  of  the  Half-breeds  towards  the  Federal  flovernment  ? 
— .\.    .\t  first  I  did  not  know  what  was  the  cause  of  the  agitation  in  the  country. 

Q-.  Afterwards  ? — X.  After,  we  knew  from  Half-breeds  that  they  were  going  to  see 
Kiel. 


Q.    .\nd  finally  Riel  came  into  the  country  ?^A.   Yes. 
Q.    In  what  month  ?^A.    .\bout  the  1st  July  84. 


109 

Q.   During  the  first  months  that  he  was  in  the  country  was  there  a  constitutional 
•  agitation  going  on  ?— A.  Yes  there  were  meetings  held  amongst  the  French  and  English 
Half-breeds  and  at  Prince  Albert  there  was  a  meeting  at  which  I  was  present  uiyself! 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  resolutions  were  passed  and  sent  to  the  federal  authorities  ? 
—  \.  I  did  not  know  that  resolutions  were  passed  at  the  meeting. 

Q.  Did  you  know  of  petitions  and  requisitions  being  sent  to  the  federal  Government  1 
— A.   At  that  time  I  did  not  know  of  any,  only  of  the  meetings  and  the  speeches. 

Q.  .\t  the  assembly  you  were  at,  did  you  take  part  ? — A.  No,  I  was  there  as  a  spec- 
tator and  did  not  speak. 

Q.  You  did  not  take  any  part  ? — A.  No,  I  was  only  there  as  a  spectator. 

Q.  Did  you  yourself  communicate  with  the  Dominion  Government  ? — A.  .\t  what 
time  ]  . 

Q.  I  mean  in  regard  to  tiie  rights  and  claims  of  the  Half-breeds  ? — A.  \'«s,  I  com- 
municated. 

Q.   .\t  what  time  I — -A.   I  am  not  sure  at  what  time,  in  18S2,  I  did  communicate. 

Q.  iSince  that  have  you  communicated  ? — .\.  Xot  directly. 

Q.    How  did  you  communicate  ? — ^A.   I  communicated  directly  in  rer;ard  to  Riel. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  in  what  manner  you  communicated  ? — \,  I  communicated  in 
December,  when  Riel  said  he  wanted  to  go  out  of  the  country  because  of  the  agitation 
that  was  existing  in  the  country. 

Q.    Uiil  you  c(^mmunicate  after  that  ? — .\.   No,  I  communicated  after  the  rebellion. 

•      Q.  With  whom  ?— A.  The  Minister  of  Public  Works. 

Q.   Sir  Hector  Langevin  1 — A.   Yes,  asking  help  for  those  wlio  were  in  distress. 

Q.   Wliat  were  the  claims  of  the  Half-breeds? — A.  Since  when,  you  must  distinguish. 

Q.  From  1884  till  the  time  of  the  rebellion  1 — .\.  Since  the  arrival  of  the  pri- 
soner in  the  country  i 

Q.  Yes  ?^.\.  It  would  be  difficult  to  tell  that,  they  changed  from  time  to  time  since 
the  arrival  of  the  prisoner. 

Q.  Before  his  arrival  ? — A.  They  demanded  patents  for  their  Iscnd,  demanded  front- 
age on  the  river  and  the  abolition  of  the  taxes  on  wood,  and  the  rfghts  for  those  wlio  did 
not  have"  scrip  in  Manitoba.  v\ 

Q.  In  wliat  way  did  the  Half-breeds  put  forth  their  rights  before  the  arrival  of  the 
prisoner  l — -A.   By  public  meetings  at  which  I  assisted  several  times  myself. 

Q.  Did  you  take  part  yourself  ? — A.  Yes,  at  all  those  meetings. 

Q.  Were  communications  made  with  the  Dominion  Go\ernment,  resolutions  and 
petitions  ? — A,   I  remember  three  or  four  times  that  theVe  was. 

Q.  Did  you  get  any  answer  to  your  communications  ? — A.  I  think  we  received  an 
answer  once,  perhaps  we  received  an  answer  once.  ' 

Q.  Was  the  answer  fa  voural)le  ? — A.  No,  it  was  an  ^v^asive  answer  saying  they  would 
take  the  question  into  consideration. 

Q.  Tliat  was  the  only  answer  to  a  number  of  commi/nications  ? — A.  Yes,  I  know  of 
another  communication  made  by  Monseigneur  Grandin  to  the  same  effect.  , 

Q.  Did  he  get  a  favourable  response  ? — A.  No,  I  don't  know  of  any. 

-•Q.  Do  you  know  if  there  was   any  answer  sent   to  Charles   Nolin,   in   regard  to  a 


petition   sent   to   tlie  Government  ? — A.  It  was  in  regard  to  those   meetings,  I  was 
making  retVrence,  I  only  know  as  to  one  answer. 

(j.  Finally  after  these  petitions  and  resolutions  had  been  adopted  at  the  public 
meetings  and  sent  to  the  Government,  was  there  a  cliange  in  tlie  state  of  things  that 
existed  then  ? — A.  Tlie  silence  of  the  Government  produced  great  dissatisfaction  in  the 
minds  of  llit; people. 

Q.  Ti)  day  are  the  people  in  a  lietter  position  than  they  were  before  in  regard  to 
the  riglits  they  claim  ?— A.  They  have  not  yet  received  the  patents  for  their  lands  on 
tlie  South  Saskatchewan. 

Mii.  OsLER. — I  must  object  to  this  class  of  questions  being  introduced.  My  learned 
friends  have  opened  a  case  of  treason  justitied  only  by  the  insanity  of  the  prisoner,  and 
thev  are  now  seeking  to  justify  armed  rebellion  for  the  redress  of  tlieir  grievances.  These 
'two  defences  are  inconsistent,  one  is  no  justification  at  all.  We  .ire  willing  to  allow  all 
iiossible  latituili'  but  they  have  ^one  as  for  as  I  feel  they  should  go.  We  have  allowed 
tiiem  to  (lescriiie  ducuments  which  they  have  not  produc'ed,  and  answers  in  writing  so 
that  they  miuht  not  be  embarrassed  and  that  the  outlini'  of  tin-  jiosition  might  l)e  fairly 
given  to  till- jury,  but  it  is  not  evidence,  and  if  my  learned "  friend  is  going  into.it  in 
detail,    I  think  it -is  objectiilnabh;. 

His  HoNoii  Mil.  JusiifK  Hu  H.viiDsox. — Supposing  they  are  going  to  produce  these 
writings. 

Mr.  O.sleu. — They  could  not  be  evidence,  they  would  not  be  evidence  in  ju.stifi- 
cation.  Tliat  is  admitfwl.  It  cannot  be  possible  for  my  learned  friend  to  open  the  case 
on  one  defence  and  go  to  the  jury  inilirectly  upon  another.  Of  course  it  is  not  really 
any  defence  in  law  and  should  not  be  gone  into  with  any  greater  particularity.  If  this 
is  given  in  evidence  we  will  have  to  answer  it  in  many  particulars,  and  then  there  would 
Vie  the  (jiiestion  of  justifying  the  policy  of  the  Government. 

His  Ho-Son.MH.  JusTiciif  Rich-VRDSok. — It  would  be  trying  the  fJovernment. 

Mr.  I  )si,eh. — It  is  as  it  were  a  counterclaim  against    tin'  Government,   anfl    that  is 

not   open   to  any  jierson  on  a  trial  for  high  treason.     We  have  no  desire  to  unduly  limit 

my  learned  friend,  but  I  cannot  consent  to  try  such  an  issue^as  that  here. 

%^ 
Mr.  Lemieu.x.  —  I  do  not  want  to  justify  the  rebellion,  I  w^ant  to  show  the  state  of 

things  in  the  country  .so  as  to  show  that   the   prisoner  was  justified    in   coming   into  the 

country  and  to  show  the  circumstances  under  wliich  he  came. 

His  Honoh  Mr.  Justice  Ricii.\ituso.s.  —  Have  you  not  done  that  already. 

Mr.  Lemiel'X. — I  have  perhaps  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  court,  but  perhaps  others 
may  not  Ife  so  well  satisfied. 

Mr.  Usleh. — If  you  do  not  go  any  further  we  will  withdraw  oui-  objection. 

Mr.  Lemiel'X. — I  want  to  get  further  facts,  n(i)t  in  justification  of  the  reliellion  but 
to  explain  the  circumstances  under,  which  the  accused  came  into  the  country.  If  I  had 
a- 'right  to  prove  what  I  have  already  proved  a  minute  ago,  I  am  entitled  to  prove  other 
facts,     If  I  was  right  a  minute  ago,  I  should  be  allowed  to  put  similar  questions  now. 

His  HovoR  Mr.  Justice  Richardson. — ^The  objection  is  not  urged  until  you  had 
gone  as  far  as  tlie  Counsel  for  the  Crown  thought  you  ought  to  go. 

Mr.  Le-MIEux. — It  is  rather  late  now  to  object. 

Mr.  Osler. — I  warned  my  learned  friends  quietly  before. 

Mr.  Lemieux. — Well,  I  will  put  the  question  and  it  can  be  objected  to. 

Q.  Will  you  say  if  the  state  of  things  in  the  country,  the  actual  state  of  things  in 
the  country,  in  1882,  1883  and  188-t,  and  if  to-day  the  state  of  things  is  the  same  as  in 


/ 


Ill 

1882,  1883  and  1884,    if  justice  has   been  clone   to  the  claims  and  just   rights   of   the- 
people  ? 

^1k.  ( ).sLKit.  That  question  must  be  objected  to,  it  could  not  have  had  anything 
to  do  witli  luiuging  the  prisoner  here.  I  object  first  as  a  matter  of  opinion  ;  second,  that 
it  is  a  leading  ([uestion,  and  third,  that  it  is  irrelevant  to  the  issue. 

'  ^Fr.  Lemieux. — The  most  important  objection  is  that  it  i.s  leading.  As  to  the 
opinion  of  tlie  witness,  I  should  tliink  liis  opinion  is  valuable,  it  is  facts  I  want  from 
the  witness,  I  suppose  he  can  j^ive  his  opinion  based  on  the  facts.  If  he  says  no  or  ves, 
I  will  ask  hinj  why,  and  he  will  give  me  his  reason  why. 

His  Honor  Mr.  Justice  Richardson. — That  will  be  a  matter  of  opinion. 

Mr.  Lemieu.v. — I  will  put  the  question  ancryou  can  object  to  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  if  at  any  time  the  Pfiminion  Government  agreed  to  accede  to  the 
demands  made  by  the  Half-breeds  and  (,'lergy,  relative  to  the  claims  and  rights  you  have 
spoken  of  in  the  jtreceding  answer  !  • 

Mlf.  I  )SLER. — I  do  not  object  to  the  (juestion,  if  contined  to  a  date  prior  to  the.  1st 
July,  lSiS4,  the  time  he  was  asked  to  come  into  the  country,  although  the  question  is 
really  irregular.  I  am  not  going  on  strict  lines,  but  I  do  object  to  his  asking  as  regai'ds 
the  present  state  of  things.  I  do  not  object  if  he  confines  his  questions  to  the  time  prior 
to  the  {irisoner's  coming  to  the  country. 

Mu.  Lemieu.x. — My  ([uestion  will  show  that  the  pi-isoner  had  reason  to  come.  If  the 
people  had  conhd-ence  in  him,  he  had  a  right  to  come  and  help  tliem,  to  try  and  [lersuade 
the  federal  (i(j\ernment  to  grant  what  had  been  refused  them  so  far. 

His  Honor  Mr.  Justice  Kiciiardson. — Your  question  is  what,  Mr.  Lemieux  ? 

Mr.  Osler. — -I  am  willing  that  the  question  should  be  allowed  if  limited  to  the 
time  prior  to  July,  1884. 

His  Honor  Mr.  Ju.stice  Richardson  to  Mr.  Lemieux.-^s  that  the  way  you  ppt  it  .' 

^Ir.  Lemieu.x. — Yes. 

•■      Mr.  Osler. — Then  we  withdraw  the  objection.  •   ■ 

His  Honor. — Then  we  will  have  his  answer. 

JIr.   Lemieux. — I  want  to  put  the  question  generally. 

!Mr.   Osler. — It  is  so  general  and  difficult  to  grasp,  anj'way,  I  won't  object. 

Mr.   Lemieux. — Perhaps  it  is  difficult  to  you  but  not  to  the  witness. 

i.}.  Will  you  state  if  since  the  arrival  of  the  prisoner  in  the  country  up  to  the  time 
of  the  rebellion,  the  (Jovernment  have  made  any  favourable  answer  to  the  demands  and 
claims  of  the  Half-breeds  ? — A.  Yes,  I  know  they  have  acceded  to  certain  demands  in 
regard  to  those  who  tlid  not  have  any  scrip  in  Manitoba.  A  telegram  was  sent  on  tlie  4th 
of  March  last,  granting  the  scrip. 

Q.  Hefore  that  time  ! — A.  Yes,  regarding  the  alteration  of  survey  of  lots  along  the 
river,  the^-e  was  an  answer  from  the  txoverniuent  saying  they  «<iuld  grant  it,  and  that  was 
an  important  question. 

Q.  What  (|uestion  then  remained  to  be  settled  1 — A.  The  ((uestion  of  pntents,  that 
has  also  been  settleil  in  a  ctM-tain  way,  because  Mr.  Duc^  was  sent  and  I  went  with  liim 
as  interpreter.  1 

Q.   What  other  question  remained  ? — A.   Only  the  luestion  of  wood,  timber. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  there  is  a  commission  sitting  in  regard  to  the  claims  aiijd  peti- 
tions of  the  Half-breeds  1 — A.   Yes. 


112 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  claims  and  demands  ha\  e  )>een  settled  hy  that  commission 
since  it  has  been  in  existence  ?— A.  In  what  place  is  it?  In  the  North- West  or  in  the 
district  of  Carlton  'i  ' 

Q.   Generally. — A.    I  do  not  know,  I  know  for  my  own  dis^ct. 

Q.  What  do  you  know?— A.   I  know  that  at  Batoche  they  gave  three  scrips. 

Q.  Since  the  rebellion  ?     A.   Yes,  aliout  three  weeks  ago. 

Q.  At  Duck  Lake  ?— A.   Forty. 

Q.  Since  tl/e  rebellion  ?—A^^es,  about  the  same  time. 

Q.   Do  you  know  of  any  other  ? — A.   No,  not  in  that  district. 

Q.  You  have  had  occasion  to  meet  the  prisoner  between  July  18«4  and  the  time 
of  the  rebellion  ? — A.  Y'e.s. 

Q.   What  i^  the  name  of  your  parijih  ? — A.   Prince  Albert. 

Q.  You  saw  the  prisoner  there  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did. you  .see  him  elsewhere? — A.  At  St.  Laurent,  several  times,  I  don't  know 
how  often  and  I  saw  him  at  Batoche  also. 

Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  speak  often  to  liim  on  thf  political  situation  and  on 
religion  ? — A.    Freijupntly,  it  was  the  matter  of  our  conversation. 

Q.   Did  you  like  to  sjK'ak  of  religion  and  politicS'with  him  ? — A.  No,  I  did  not  like  to. 

Q.  W\)l  you  give-ine  the  reason  why  you  did  not  like  to  speak  of  religion  and  politics 
to  him  ? — A.  Politics  ami  religion  was  a  suliject  he  always  spoke  of  in  conversation,  he 
loved  those  subjects. 

Q.  Did  he  .speak  in  a  sensible, manner? — A.'  I  wish  to  .say  why  I  did  not  Uke  to 
speak  to  him  on  those  subjects.  Upon  all  other  matters,  litterature  and  sciencej/fie  was 
in  his  ordinary  state  of  mind.  '^ 

Q.   Upon  political  subjects  and  religion? — A.   Upon  polities  and  religion  he  was  no 
longer  the  same  man  ;  it  would  seem  as  if  there  were  two  men  in  him,  he  lost  all  control 
,  of  himself  on  those  questions. 

Q.  When  he  spoke  «f  religion  and  politics  ? — A.  Yes,  on  those  two  matters  he  lost 
all  control  of  himself. 

Q.  Do  you  consider,  after  the  conversations  you  have  had  with  him,  that  when  he 
spoke  on  politics  and  religion  he  had  his  intelligence? — A.  Many  times,  at  least  twenty 
times,  I  told  him,  I  would  not  speak  on  those  sjibfects  because  he  was  a  fool,  he  did  not 
have  his  intelligence  of  mind. 

Q.  I^^iat  the  practical  result  you  have  found  in  your  conversation  with  Riel  on 
political/and  religious  questions? — .\.  It  is  my  experience. 

You  have  had  a  good  deal  of  experience  with  people  and  you  have  known  persons 
who  where  afflicted  with  a  mania  ? — A.  Before  answering  that,  t  want  to  state  a  fact  to 
the  court  regarding  the  prisoner.  You  know  the  life  of  that  man  affected  us  during  a 
certain  time. 

Q.  In  what  way? — A.  He  was  a  fervent  Catholic,  attending  the  church  and  attend- 
ing to  his  religious  duties  frequently,  and  his  state  of  mind  was  the  cause  of  great  anxiety. 
In  conversation  on  politics,  and  on  the  rebellion  and  on  religion,  he  stated  things  which 
frightened  the  priests.  I  am  obliged  to  visit  every  month  the  Fathers  (priests)  of  the 
district.  Once  all  the  priests  met  together  and  they  put  the  (|uestion,  is  it  possible  to 
allow  that  man  to  continue  in  his  religious  duties,  and  they  unanimously  decide<l  that 
on  this  ipiestion  he  was  not  respori8ible,_on  these  questions  ;  that  he  could  not  suffer 
any  contradiction  on  the  question  of-^ligion  and  politics,  we  considered  that  he  was 


113 


<.-oiiij)letely  a  fool,   in  discussing  these  (luestious  ;  it   was   like  showing  a  red   flag  to  a 
hull,  to  UHP  a  vulgar  expression. 


Hv  Mr.  C.vs(;r.\in. 

<^.    I  i)elieve  hi  the  month  of  l)eeeinber  'S4  you  had  an  interview  wit!i   Kiel  and 
Nolin  witli  regard  to  a  ci'rtain  sum  of  money  which  the  prisoner  claimed  frtfm  the  Federal  ■ 
<tovernnnMit?  — .\.   Xot  with  Xolin,  Xoliu  was  not  present  at  the  interview. 

(^.   The  pri.soner  was  there? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  what  the  prisoner  asked  of  the  Federal  Government? — A.  I 
had  two  interviews  with  the  prisoner  on  that  suhjet. 

(^.  Th((  prisoner  clainnid  a  certain  indemnity  from  the  Federal  (Jovernnient,  didn't 
lie?-— A.  When  the  prisoner  madti.liis  claim,  I  was  there  with  another  gentleman  and 
he  asked  from  the  tiovernment  .^lOO.OOU.  We  thought  that  was  exhoitiitant  and  the 
jirisoner  said   "wait  a  little,  I  will  take  at  once  ."*3o,00(»  cash.  ' 

(.^.  -Vnil  on  that  condition  the  prisoner  was  to  leave  the  country  if  the  (io\  ernment 
«ave  him  .-<:!.">, DlXt.'    -A.    Vijs,  that  was  the  condition  he  put. 

<i.    When  was  this.' — A.   This  was  on  the_,l':!r<l  Decemher  >!4.  ' 

<J.  Tln-re  was  also  another  inter\  lew  hetween  you  and  the  j)risouer? — A.  There  has 
li.ien  all  lilt  L'O  interviews  lietween  us. 

Q.  H-  was  alwiys  after  you  to  ask  you  to  Usc'your  influence  with  the  Federal 
({  iveian -at  to  oliMin  an  indemnity.' — A.  The  tirst  time  he  spoke  of  it  was  on  the  ll'tli 
l),'ceml)i'r,  he  hid  never  sp.iken  a  word  of  it  ln^fori-,  and  on  the  L';5rd  Decendier  he  spoke 
<il)oiit  it  again.  -  b'''-" 

i).    He  talked  ahout  it  \  cry  freipn-ntly! — A.   On  these  two  occasions  only. 

i).    That  was  his  great  occupation.' — A.   Yes,  at  those  times. 

•  ^•.  Is  it  n  It  true  that  tin-  pris  mer  told  you  that  he  himself  was  the  Halfhreed 
«jUc'stion.' — .v..  He  did  not  s  ly  so  in  express  ti'rms,  hut  he  con\  eyed  that  idea,  he  said,  if 
I  am  sitistied  the  H  ilf-l>retMls  wdl  lie.  1  must  explain  this.  This  olijection  was  made  to 
him  tliit  even  if  tlie  (!,iverMmt-nt  granted  him  .'rJlt.i.UDO,  the  Half-breed  (piestion  wouM 
remain  the  .same,  and  he  s aid  in  answer  to  that  if   I  am  satistii-d   the   Half-breeds  will  1  <•. 

i).  Is  it  nut  a  fa.-t  he  tild  you  he  w.iuld  even  acccjit  a  less  sum  than  $3.'i,000?-- 
A.  Yes,  he  said,  "  Use  all  the  inHuence  you  can,  you  may  not  get  all  tliat  but  get  all  V<  U 
can,  and  if  you  get  less  we  will  see." 

Q.  When  he.  spoke  of  r.digion,  the  principal  tiling  of  which  he  spoke,  was  it  n<it  the 
supremacy  of  Pope  Lbo  thi^  l;Jtli.' — A.  IV^fore  the  rebellion  he  never  spoke  directly  on 
4,hat  (juestion  as  to  the  supremacy  of  the  Pope. 

Q.  On  that  i|Uestion  he  was  perfectly  reasonable  ) —A.  On  religious  ipiestions  bef(  le 
t^,  time  he  blamed  everything,  he  wanted  to  change  Mass,  and  the  liturgy,  tl.e 
ee,   ^monies  and  the  symbols. 

f"     Q.   Do  you  pretend  that  every  ma-H  who  lias  strange  ideas  on  religious  matters  is  a 
fflSiH— A.    No,   I  don't  luetend  that. 

Q.  A  man  may  havi!  (larticular  views  on  re'igious  matters  and  still  retain  all  his 
rjJasoii  and  intelligence  I^A.  That  depends  on  the  way  in  which  he  explains  his  ideas  aid 
Jin'  his  eoAduct  in  expressing  them. 

Q.   A  man  may  be  a  great  reformer  of  great  religious  (|uestions  without  being  a  fool? 
-\.    I  do  not  deny  history,  but  the  reformer  must  have  some  principles  which  the  prisoner 
iliever  iiad.  •  .    . 

8      • 


i- 


"T        ,  .  112 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  claims  and  demands  liave  )<een  settled  liy  that  commission 
since  it  has  been  in  existence  ? — A.  In  what  place  is  it  ?  In  the  North-West  or  in  the 
district  of  Carlton  1 

Q.   Generally. — A.   I  do  not  know,  I  know  for  my  own  district. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  ?— A.  I  know  that  at  Batoche  they  gave  three  scrips. 

Q.  Since  the  rebellion  ?     A. .  Yes,  about  three  weeks  ago. 

Q.   At  Duck  Lake  ?— A.   Forty. 

Q.  Since  the  rebellion  1 — A.  Yes,  about  the  same  time. 

Q.   Do  you  know  of  any  other  ?^A.   No,  not  in  that  district. 

Q.  You  have  had  occasion  to  meet  the  prisoner  between  July  1884  and  the  time 
of  the  rebellion  1 — A.  Yes. 

Q.   What  is  the  name  of  your  pai-ish  ? — A.   Prince  Albert. 

Q.  You  saw  the  prisoner  there  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q;  Did  you  see  him  elsewhere? — A.  At  St.  Laurent,  several  times,  I  don't  know 
how  often  and  I  saw  him  at  Batoche  also. 

Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  speak  often  to  him  on  thi-  political  .situation  and  on 
religion  ? — A.   Freijuently,  it  was  the  matter  of  our  conversation, 

Q.   Did  you  like  to  speak  of  religion  and  politics  with  him  1 — A.  No,  I  did  not  like  to. 

Q.  Will  you  give  me  the  reason  why  ypu  did  not  like  to  speak  of  religion  and  politics 
to  him  f — A.  Politics  and  religion  was  a  subject  he  always  spoke  of  in  conversation,  he 
loved  those  subjects. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  in  a;  sensible  manner? — A.  I  wish  to  say  why  I  did  not  like  to 
speak  to  him  on  those  subjects.  Upon  all  other  matters,  litterature  and  science,  he  was 
in  his?ordinary  state  oWnind. 

Q.  Upon  political  subjects  and  religion  ? — A.  Upon  polities  and  religion  he  was  no 
longer  the  same  man  ;  it  would  seem  as  if  there  were  two  men  in  him,  he  lost  all  control 
of  himself  on  those  questions.  . 

Q.  When  he  spoke  of  religion  and  politics  ? — A.  Yes,  on  those  two  matters  he  lost 
all  control  of  himself. 

Q.  Do  you  consider,  after  the  conversations  you  have  had  with  him,  that  when  he 
spoke  on  politics  and  religion  he  had  his  intelligence  ? — A.  Many  times,  at  least  twenty 
times,  I  told  him,  I  would  not  speak  on  those  subjects  because  he  was  a  fool,  he  did  not 
have  liis  intelligence  of  mind. 

Q.  Is  that  the  practical  result  you  have  found  in  your  conversation  with  Riel  on 
political  and  religious  questions? — .\.   It  is  Iny  experience. 

Q.   You  have  had  a  good  deal  of  experience  with  people  and  you  have  known  persons 
who  where  afflicted  with  a  mania  ? — A.   Before  answering  that,  I  want  to  state  a  fact  to 
)  the  court  regardiiuf  the  prisoner.     You  know  the  life  of  that  man  affected  us  during  a 
certain  time.         ' 

Q.  Iri  what  way  ? — ^A.^He  was  a  fervent  Catholic,  attending  the  church  and  attend- 
ing to  his  religious  duties  frequently,  and  his  state  of  mind  was  the  cause  of  great  anxiety. 
In  conversation  on  politics,  and  on  the  rebellion  and  on  religion,  he  stated  things  which 
frightened  the  priests.  I  am  obliged  to  visit  every  month  the  Fathers  (priests)  of  the 
district.  Once  all  the  priests  met  together  and  they  put  the  question,  is  it  possible  to 
allow  that  man  to  continue  in  his  religious  duties,  and  they  unanimously  decided  that 
on  this  ((ttestion  he  was  not  responsible,  on  these  questions  ;  that  he  could  not  suffer 
any  contradiction   on   the  question   of  religion   and  politics,  we  considered  that  he  was 


113 

<.-oin|)letely  a  fool,   in  iliscussiug  these  questions  ;  it  was  like  showing  a  red  flag  to  a 
l>ull,  to  UMc  a  vulgar  expression. 


!>>•  Mr.  C'.vsdUAiN. 

O.  I  lielieve  in  tlie  month  of  Dei-eniljer 'S4  you  had  an  interview  wit!i  Kiel  and 
Noliii  with  regard  to  a  certain  sum  of  money  whit-li  the  prisoner  claimed  from  the  Federal 
(Jtivernment?  —A.    N'nt  with  Nolin,  Xoliu  was  not  present  at  the  interview.  ^ 

n.   The  prisoner  was  tliere? — .V.   Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  please  state  what  the  pri.soner  asked  of  the  Federal  Government? — A.  I 
ha  1  two  interviews  with  the  prisoner  on  that  sulijet. 

(^.  The  prisoner  claimed  a  ceitain  indemnity  from  the  Federal  (ioveriiment,  didn't 
lie? — V.  When  the  prisoner  mach?  his  claim,  I  was  there  with  another  gentleman  and 
lie  asked  from  the  (Jovernment  .SlOOiOOO.  We  thought  that  was  exhorhitant  and  the 
pri.soner  said   "wait  a  little,  I  will  take  at  once  SS-i.OUO  cash.  ' 

(}.  .Vnd  on  that  condition  the  prisoner  was  to  leave  the  country  if  the  ({overiiineiit 
g.ixe  him  .-^ll-'ijOKt).'   -A.    Yes,  that  was  the  cdiiditiciu  he  put. 

<i.    When  was  this  f  -A.   Tlii->  was  i>n  the_,L':!rd  Deceniher  '84. 

t.J.  Tlu-re  was  also  another  inter\iew  hetween  you  and  the  prisoner? — A.  There  ha.s 
Ji.nMi  ahiut  I'D  interviews  lietween  u>. 

<^.  l\-  was  alw  lys  aftei-  ymi  to  ask  you  ti)  usc'your  iutluence  with  the  Federal 
({  ivi'i-.i:n  Mt  to  oliMiii  an  imlemiiity .' — A.  The  tirst  time  he  spoke  of  it  was  on  the  12th 
l),'ceml>;'r,  he  had  never  spiikeii  a  wiir.l  of  it  lipfore,  and  on  the  "J:>i-d  Decemlifr  he  .spoke 
alioiit.  it  iijjain.  -  .,,  .u  i 

i).    Me  ta'ked  aliout  it  very  freijuently .' — A.   On  these  two  occasions  only. 

<^.    That  was  his  great  occupation':  —A.    Yes,  at  those  times. 

»,».  I-.  it  II  >t  trill-  tliit  thr  prisiiici-  told  you  that  lie  himself  was  the  Half  hreed 
«|ll<'Svion.' — .V,  He  did  not  s  ly  so  in  express  terms,  Imt  he  conveyed  tliat  idea,  he  .said,  if 
I  am  sitistied  the  H  ilf-hrer-ds  will  lie.  1  must  exidain  this.  This  olijcction  was  made  to 
him  thit  even  if  the  (iovernment  granted  hint  S.'io.UOO,  the  Half-hreed  (piestion  wou'd 
remain  the  same,  and  he  siiil  in  answer  to  that  if  I  am  satis-tied   the    Half-lireeds  will  1  i-. 

I  (}.  Is  it  not  a  f  I -t  he  told  you  he  would  even  accejit  a  less  sum  than  S!3o,000?-- 
A.  Yes.  he  s:iid,  -  ii,e  all  the  influence  you  can.  you  may  not  get  all  that  hut  get  all  yi  u 
i-aii,  and  if  you  get  less  we  will  .see." 

Q.  Whi'ii  he  spoke  of  r-'ligion,  the  principal  thing  of  which  he  spoke,  was  it  not  the 
Hpremi(-y  of  Pope  L:!0  the  1.1th.'— A.  H -fore- the  rehelliiui  he  never  spoke  directly  on 
hilt  cpiestion  as  tollie  supremacy  of  the  Pope. 

Q.  On  that  c|uestioii  he  was  perfectly  rea.sonalile  ?— A.  On  religious  questions  bcfcie 
th.  time  he  hlamed  everything,  he  wanted  to  change  Mass,  and  the  liturgy,  tie 
et)    unoliies  and  the  svinhols. 

"     Q.   Do  you  pretend  that  every  man  who  has  strange  ideas  on  religious   Hiatters  is  a 
7>1?— A.    No,  I  don't  pretend  that. 

Q.  A  man  m  ly  have  particular  views  on  re'igious  matters  and  still  retain  all  1i:k 
rtUsou  and  intelligence/ — A.  That  depends  on  the  way  in  which  he  explains  his  ideas  ai.d. 
iMkf  his  uoiVduct  ill  expressing  them.  i  ,7 

Q.  A  man  may  he  a  great  reformer  of  great  religious  (|uestions  without  heing  a  fool? 
-.\.   I  do  not  deny  history,  hut  the  reformer  must  have  some  puinciples  which  the  pri.soii(^ 
iever  had.  •  ' 

8     . 


•  114 

Q.  Is  it'iiot  trufi  that  the  prisoner  has  fixed  principles  in  his  new  religion  ?  A.  He- 
hal  t'i3  priu'iiple  thit  he  was  an  autocrat  in  religion  and  polities,  and  he  ehangcd  his  . 
opinion  as  he'wislied. 

Q.  Do  yiiu  say  he  changed  his  religion  as  he  wished  .'  —  A.  His  ideas  changed,  to  day 
he  atlinitted  this  and  tomorrow  denied  it ;  he  was  his  own  judge  in  these  matters,  he 
beleived  hinisqlf  infallilile. 

Half-ljreeds   are   a   iieojile  extremely   religious  ( — A.   1 


adini 


Q.    Is  it  ijfot  a  fact  that  th 
it  the  faqf,  very  religious. 


-A.  Y. 


Q.    Is  it  jiot  true  that  religion  has  a  great  inHucnce  u])on  them  ?- 

Q.  Is  it  not  true  that  ,i  man  who  tried  to  govern  tliciii  liy  in<lucing  them  to  com- 
pletely diaiig^their  religion  or  to  do  away  with  ii,  would  have  no  influence  with  them  at 
all? — A.  Hlxactly,  it  was  just  because  he  was  so  religious  and  apjieared  so  devout  that 
.  he  exercised  such  a  great  intiuence'upon  them.  I  wish  to  <-x|ilain  this  point  liecause  it  is 
a  gre  it  puint.  With  Halt'-lireeds  he  never  was  contiadictcd  and  conseijuentl y  he  was  never 
ex^riti'il  with  theni,  and  he  appeared  in  his  natural  state  with  them.  He  tlid  not  admit 
his  strange  views  at  first,  it  was  only  after  a  time  that  he  proclaime<l  them  and  especially 
after  the  pr<(visional  government  had  been  proclaimed. 

By  Mr  LEMimx.  •     i^ 

.  .  '  \ 

Q.   Is  it  not  a  fact  that  if  any  opposition  was  made  to  Riel,  he  liecanie  irascible  and 

violent  and  almost  uncontrollable  ( — A.    As  far  as  my  ])ersonal  experience  goes  he  would 

not    allow    the    least  opposition  at  all,  immediately   his  phjsiognomy   changed   and  he 

)>ecame  a  different  n)an.  '  !  • 

Mr  Cascrain  objects  to  this  evidenci-  on  the  ground  that  it  should  have  been  gi\eii 
on  the  examination  in  chief. 


Philippe  dAR.v'oT,  swOrn,  examined  )>y  Mr  Fitzpatrick. 

y.   What  is  your  name  ? — A.  Philippe  (Jarnot.  , 

<j.   Where  do  you  live  when  you  are  at  home  ? — A.   At  Batoche. 

Q.   Where  are  you  living  at  the  present  time — living  now  1 — In  Kegina  jail. 

Q.   Do  you  know  Riel  the  prisoner  at  the  bar  1 — A.  I  do. 

Q.  You  have  known  him  for  how  long? — A.  I  .saw  him  for  the  first  time  in  Helena 
Montana,  about  seven  years  ago.  J 

y.  Did  you  see  him  at  Batoche  during  the  course  of  last  summer  or  in  the  8nskat> 
ehewan  district  ? — A.   I  saw  sim  last  fall. 

Q.   What  tim?jlast  fall  ?— A.    In  October. 

y.  From  that  time  up  to  the  month  of  March  last  did  you  have  occasion  to  see  him 
.frequently  T  -A.  No,  I  did  not  see  much  of  him,   I  only  saw  him  once  or  twice.  ct 

Q.  During  that  time<lid  you  have  any  conversation  with  him  ? — A.  No,  not  tha  '[ 
reniemljer.  i 

Q.  No  conversation  Whatever  witli  him  ? — A.  I  had  some  small  conversation  liut 
notie  that  I  can  remember  well.  . 

Q.  Do  you  rememfjer  during  the  course  of  last  autumn  and  last  winter  up  to  the 
month  of  March,  do  you  remend>er  having  any  conversation  with  liim  on  religious  mat- 
ters or  on  political  matters  ? — A.  No,  I  never  had.  \\,\  ' 

Q.  No  conversation  whatever  up  to  tliat  time! — A.  1  had  some  conversation  but 
not  on  religion  or  politics.  '  > 


115 


Q.  Did  you  at  any  time  talk  to  him  on  religion  previous  to  his  arrest  t — A.  I  did, 
after  the  trouble,  after  the  18th  March. 

Q.  Was  he  livin<{  at  your  house  ? — A.  No,  but  he  came  there  occasionaliy  and  slept 
there  sometimes. 

Q.  When  he  spoke   to   you   of    religion  do   you  remember  what  he  .said  to  you  t 

-  ^A.  I  know  he  was  talkinj;  to  nie  about  chanjj;in<;  the  Pope  or  some  thing  of  that  kind, 
wantinj;  to  name  Bishop  Bourget,  of  Montreal,  Pope  of  the  New  World  as  he  named  it,  he 
spoke  to  me  several  things  about  religion  that  I  cannot  remember. 

t^).  Did  lie  say  anything  to  you  about  the  Holy  Ghost  or  the  Spirit  of  (iod  ? — A.  Yes, 
he  said  in  my  presence,  not  to  me  exactly,  that  the  spirit  of  Elias  was  with  him.  - 

■y.  IHd  he  say  he  lia<l  any  of  tlie  divine  ivttrit)Utes  that  are  generally  attributed  tsy 
Elias  '! — A.  That  is  what  1  think  he  meant  by  that. 

(}.  What  did  he  say  about  it  as  far  as  you  can  recollect.' — A.  He  wanted  the  people 
in  tlic  meeting  to  acknowledge  liim  as  a  piopliet  and  he  gave  them  to  understand  that 
he  had  the  spirit  of  Klias  in  him  and  that  he  was  ]irophesying. 

Q.  |)(i  vou  remeiidiei' any  of  his  numerous  proiiiiecies  ?  — .\.  1  don't  rem«-nd)er  thejii 
all. 

t^.  I  >o  you  remember  any  of  tliem  .'  A."  I  know  jA^ry  morning,  almost  every  mor- 
ning, he  would  i-ome  in  front  of  the  people  and  say  su/h  ind  such  a  thing  would  happen, 
I  don fiememlier  any  of  them  in  particular, 

t^.  \  on  said  a  moment  ago  lie  spent  some  nights  at  your  house.'  —.A.  Yes,  he  slept 
once  or  twite  at  my  house. 

Q.    During  the  nights  he  spent  there  did  you  notice  anything  remarkable  about  hiui  I 

—  .v.    I  know  he  was  praying  loud  all  night  and  kept  me  awake  souietimes- 

(^.  K\ery  one  else  was  asleep  in  the  house  at  that  time  !-  A.  I  was  the  only  other 
one  in  the  liouse  witli  him. 

<^>.  Can  you  reniendjer  now  the  kind  of  prayers  he  delivered  himself  of.' — A.  It  was 
prayers  he  was  making  up  himself.      I  never  heard  them  before. 

<^.    You  are  a  Roman  Catholic  ? — .\.   Yes. 

t^.    You  are  a  French  Canadian?  —.A.   Yes. 

I  C^.  Had  you  ever  hearti  any  of  those  prayers  before  ? —  A .  I  never  heard  them  except 
^iomeof  them,  he  would  say  the  prayer  "Our  Father...  but  all  the  rest  of  the  prayers  I 
never  heard  them  liefore  except  by  him. 

y.  During  the  time  you  saw  him  when  he  delivered  himself  of  the.se  prophecies  you 
illuded  to,  what  was  his  temper,  how  did  he  act  when  contradicted  I  -A.  He  would  not 
<tand  contradiction  by  any  one,  he  had  to  have  his  own  way  in  everything. 

Q.    Was  he  \ery  smooth  tempered  ? — A.   No,  he  was  not  smooth  tempered. 

(J.   Irritable  ?-A.  Yes.  "" 

It 
■       t^.  Did  he  make  any  declaration  to  you  as  to  what  he  thought  himself  to  be,  in  the 

fay  of  power  or  authority  ? — A    No,  he  did   not  make  any  statemeiits  to  me,  but  in  my 
resence  he  made  a  declaration  that  he  was  representing  St.  Peter. 

Q.  Did  he  aspire  to  any  ])articular  gift  or  pretend  he  was  endowed  with  the  abilities 
f  a  poet,  musician,  or  orator  1 — A.   No.  , 

Q.   You  did  not  hear  him  boast  of  his  great  intellectual  qualities  ! — A.   No. 

Q.  Did  he  at  any  time  communicate  to  you  his  views  with  reference  to  the  way  in 
f\iic]\  the  c(nintry  was  to  l>e  divided  in  the  event  of  his  success  1— A,  He  did  in  my  pre- 


< 


IIG 


^ 


ii.  TelJ  us  wliiit  lie  said  to  you  about  that  as  far  as  you  can  reineiiil>er  ?  A.  He 
« a«  talkiuf?;  about  tin-  country  Iteiu;^  divided   into  seven  provinces,  one  for  the   French, 

(ierinans,  IrfsJi,  and  I  dontjknow  what  els'e.  there  were  to  lie  seven  ditterent  nationalities. 
;  I  \       ' 

Q.  Do  you  reniendier  anytliin;;  else  liftsides  those  you  have  mentioned,  what  other 
foreij;ners  .'A.    Italians. 

(^.  Hungarians; -A.  1  cant  renieniher  particularly  very  well,  I  know  it  was  seven 
dirt'erent  provinces,  and  seven  ditterent  nationalities. 

»j.  Did  the  plan  he  then  statt^l  appear  to  you  a  very  tVasilile  one  i — A.  I  did  not 
believe  he  could  succeed  in  that, 

Q.  Di(l  he  say  lie  expected  any  assistance  from  tjiese  people?  A.  Yes,lie  iiieutioiied 
lie  expecte({  assistance  from  them,  he  mentioned  heS'xpected  the  assistance  of  an  army 
of  several  nationalities,  and  I  remember  he  mentioiied  the  Jews.  He  expected  their 
assistance  and  money,  he  was  going  to  give  them  a  province  as  a  reward  for  their  helji. 
That  is  what  1  understood  him  to  say.  >  , 

(i  Did  lie  tell  you  how  he  had  arianf<ed  that  oi^if  he  had  made  any  ariaiigemeiits 
with  these  people  '! — A.    He  might,  but  I  don't  remenlber.  . 

,  <^.  In  his  conversation  with  you,  or  with  others  in  your  |iresence  on  these  sinrjects, 
did  he  at  any  time  give  y(ni  any  i'litiinatioii  that  he  had  any  iloubt  of  his  success,  that 
any  obstacle  could  [irevent  him  from  succeeding  ;  A.  No,  he  always  mentioned  that  he 
was  going  to  succeed,  that  it  was  a  dix  iiie  mission  that  he  had,  and  that  he  v.a>  only  an 
iiifetrunient  in  thehands  of  (iod.  ^  ^ 

<j.  When  he  talked  of  other  matters  than  religion  aiid  the  success  of  his  |ilans,  how 
di<l  he  act  anil  talk  generally  .' —  .\  I  never  noticed  any  diH'erence  in  his  talk  on  other 
matters,  because  I  never  hail  much  intercourse  with  him  only  during  the  time  of  the 
troulile,  1  met  him  once  before  that 

1/  Did  he  a]>pear  to  pe  actuated  by  any  frieiuls]ii(ifcpr  utlni'  peii|ile,  or  did  he  appear 
to  Ix'  wia]H)«'d  up  in  him.self  .'  Did  he  ap]iear  tfi  liaxe  any  sympathv  for  any  one  except 
himself;  Did  he  ajipeai-  to  think  of  any  one  but  himself,  I  mean  during  these  times  you 
had  loiiversation  with  hini ,'  \.  1  could  not  answei  that  i|uestion,  because  I  don't  under- 
stand it  rightiy.  I 

i}.    When  he  s](oke  of  religion  and  about  the  country,  and  in  the  ditl'erent  interviewlj, 

with  you  or  others,  did  you  understand  that  he  had  any  idea  of  thinking  of  the  welfaieijf 

anyone  at  all  excejit    himself,    that  he    was  the  sole  person   to  be   considered  .'      A.    It 

seemed  as  if  he  was  working;  in  the  interest  of  the  Ifalf-hreed  population  and  the  scttlei^ 

ifelieiallv.       He  mentioned  that . 

\ 

(j.    Did  you  coniinunibite  to  anyone  your  impression  of  this  man     what  vou  tJiouglit 

of  him?     A."  I  did. 

Q.  What  did  you  tliipk  of  him  *— A.  I  thought  the  man  was  crazy,  because  he  acte(l 
very  foolish. 

By  Mr.  RoHixsox. 

Q.    He  had  great  iiittuence  over  the  Half-breed  population  tliere,  hadn't  lie  !    -k 
Yes,  he  could  do  almrtst  what  he  wanted  with  them. 

Q.  Are  you  one  of  those  who  followed  him  ? — A.  No.  I  followed  him,  but  agaii\jt 
iny  will. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean?  -A.  When  a  man  lias  a  stronger  force  than  1  have  I  ha -e 
to   follow   him,  he  came  to  me  with  an  armed  force  and  I  had  to  go. 

Q.   Do  you  say  you  were  forced  to  follow  him  by  violence  '/  Is  that  what  you  iiiea  f 


117 

— A.    1  don't  mean  to  say  I  was  forced  exactly  l>y  violence.     He  cauie  and   Immght  me 
from  my  house,  lie  came  with  armed  men,  and  I  saw  it  was  no  use  resisting. 

ij.    I*n  you  moan  to  say  you  followed  him  because  of  the  arme<l  men,  and  that  that 
■was  nil  that  influenced  you  ?- A.   Ves. 

if.    He  ha<l  fjreat  influence  over  all  the  Half-breed  population  ? — A.    I  always  thought 
he  liad  lots  of  influence  amon<;st  the  Half-breeds. 

Q.    I  believe  they  looked  to  him  as  a  leader  and  tVillowed  him  ?     A.    Yes,  they  did. 

C^.    They  relied  uj>  ^n  his  judgment  and  advice  ?      A.    They  did. 


J 


Vir.\i.  F.jUkmuni)  sworn,  exa.uincd  by  Mi'.  L-iuicux.  (.Vrtliur  hewis  swoi'u  as 
inter|ireter. ) 

Q.  Your  profession  ? — A.  I  am  a  Priest  of  St.  Laiwent,  in  the  district  of^Carlton, 
an  Oblat  Father.  f 

i.}.  For  how  loiii;  have  you  been  a  Pi'icst  ?  .V.  Ten  yeai-s.  1  arrixc<l  at  the  place 
in  the  year  T"). 

*.).  Have  you  known  the  pri^iuer,  Kiel,  sinie  'M4  .'  .\.  Yes,  directly  siniie^  his 
ariival.       I  knew  the  prisoner  by  what  I  irid  hcinl,  but   1  had  never  seen  him  tifl  then. 

({.  Since  his  arrival  in  the  countrv,  have  you  had  .several  conversations  with  the 
prisoner  up  to  the  time  of  the  rebellion  I   -A.    Very  often. 

(.,».    Xt  St.  Laurent  ?-   A.   At  St.  Laurent,  at  Uatoche  duriiij,'  the  War. 

().  Had  you  any  ci>n\frsation  with  the  pri.soner  on  religious  and'^>olitical  subject.s  ? 
—A.    \'ery  often. 

(}.  Wi-re  y(ai  present  at  the  inei-ting  whiL-h  Father  Andre  sjioke  of  in  which  Kiel's 
.sanity  was  (|uesti(ine(l  ? — A.    Yes,   I   was  )ire.sent. 

(j>."'l>id  you  agri-e  witii  the  other  Fathers  in  llic-  upiiiiim  iis  to  the  sanity  of  tlie  |>ri- 
sonei-  ?      .V.    It  was  me  <onsulted  the  Hcvd.  Fatln-rs. 

<-).  Were  you  personally  aeipiainted  with  the  facts  upon  which  you  ba.sed  your 
opinion  as  to  the  in.sanity  of  Kiel  ?  A.  1  was  personally  acciuaintcd  with  the  facts  upon 
which  they  based  their  opinion. 

'  ij.    Will  you  jilease  state  up<in  what  facts  you  l)aseil  your  opinion   that    the   prisoner 

was  not  .sane  on  religious  or  political  matters  ?      A.   Permit  me  to  divide  the  answer  into 

j  two,  the  facts  befcjre  the  rebellion,  anil  the  facts  during  the  ri'liellion.  ISifore  the  rebel- 
lion it  appeari'd  as  if  theie  wen;  two  men  in  the  piisoner  ;  In  |iri\ate  con\ersation  he  was 

■  affable,  polite,  pli-asant  and  a  charitable  man  t<V  nie.  I  noticed  that  e\  en  «  hen  he  was  quiet- 
ly talk<;(l  to  alpout  the  ati'airs  of  politics  and  goxernment  and  lie  was  not  contradicted,  he 
was  ipiite  rational,  but  as  soon  as  he  was  contradicted  on    the.se   subjects  then  he  became 

,  a  different  man  and  lie  would  be  carried  away  with  his  feelings.      He  wouhl  go  so  far  as 

j-to  use  violent  ex|iivssions  to  tho.se  who  were  even  his  friends.  As  .soon  as  the  ivbellion 
•ommeiiced  then  he  became  exciteil,  and  he  was  carried  away  and  he  lost  all  control  of 
ihimself  and  of  his  temper.  He  went  so  far,  that  when  a  Father  contradicted  him  he 
became  (piite  e.vcited,  and  he  had  no  respect  for  him  and  he  often  threatened  to  destroy 
all  the  churches.  He  says  :  There  is  danger  for  you,  but  thanks  for  the  friendship  T  have 
for  you,  I  will  protect  you  from  any  harm.  ( >nce  1  wi-nt  to  St.  .Vntoine  and  there  I  met 
ji  numlier  of  priest.s,  and  Kiel  says  :  I  have  been  ap]iointed  by  the  t'ouncil  to  be  your  spiri- 
tual adviser.  I  said  our  spiritual  advi.ser  was  the  llishop,  and  Mr.  Hielwould  not  be  him. 
There  is  only  one  way  you  can  lie  our  adviser,  the  only  way  you  can  become  .so  is  by 
shooting  us,  the  only  way  you  can  direct  us  is  l)y  shooting  us,  uiul  then  you  i\ui  direct 
our  iMipses  in  any  wa}'  you  like.     That  was  my  answer  to  him. 


r 


118 


(The  interpreter  states  that  lie  does  not  feel  qualified  to  correctly  interpret  the 
■evidence,  and  Mr.  Cas),'rain  pro|)oses  that  he  translates  the  evidence  given  liy  the  defence, 
and  Mr.  Fitzi>atriek  that  given  hy  the  Crown  ;  wliich  is  agreed  to.) 

Witnes.s  coutinue<l He  has  extraordinary  ideas   on   the  snhjcct  of  the  Trinity. 

The  only  (iod  was  tiod  the  Father,  and  that  God  the  Son  was  not  (iod,  the  Holy-(ihost 
was  not  (Jod  either.  The  .second  person  of  the  Trinity  was  not  (iod,  and  as  a  conse(iuen«,-e 
of  this  the  Virgin  Mary  was  not  the  mother  of  (Jod,  hut  the  mother  of  the  son  of  God. 
That  is  the  rea.son  why  he  changed  the  formula  of  the  pniyer  which  is  commindy  known 
as  "  Hail  Mary  '  Instead  of  saying  "  Hail  Mary,  mother  of  (Jod  "  he  said  "  Ifail  Mary, 
mother  of  th^3on  of  (Iml."  He  did  not  admit  tlie  doctrines  of  the  Cliurch  of  the  Divine 
presence.  According  tohis  ideas  it  wasnoi  (Jo<I  whowas  present  in  the  Host,  liut  an  ordinary 
man  six  feet  high.  As  to  his  political  ideas  he  wanted  Hrst  to  go  to  Winnii)eg,  and  Lower 
Oanada,  and  the  ITnited  States,  and  even  to  France,  and  he  said  we  will  take  your  coun- 
try even,  and  then  he  was  to  go  to  Italy  and  overthrow  the  Pope,  and  then  he  would 
choose  another  Pope  of  his  own  making.  v 

Mr  Osi.eh. — Vour  Honor,  w-eXrould  prefer  the  interpretation  should  lie  done  liy  a 
regular  interpreter.  I  don't  think  it  is  within  the  ordinary  rules  of  the  e\  ideiTce  that  it 
should  be  done  as  it  is  now.  It  is  a  c|uestion  even  whether  even  if  con.sented  to  as  in 
this  c-iOve,  it  would  he  hinding  in  a  criminal  case. 

pourt  heie  adjourned  for  lunch 


On  Court  resuming,  Louis  Bourget  was  appointed   interpreter. 

Q.  Before  adjournment  you  said  that  Kiel  had  said  he  was  going  down  to  Wiiniipeg, 
that  he  was  going  to  the  Province  of  Queliec,  then  lie  was  going  to  cross  the  ocean  and 
go  on  to  Paris  and  Rome,  and  have  a  new  Pope  elected.  He  would  get  one  appointed  oi' 
appoint  himself  as  Pope  .'A.    Ves.  he  said  something  to  that^ti'ect. 

Q,  Have  you  made  u]i  your  mind  aliout  the  prisoner  lieiiig  sane,  as  far  as  religious 
snatters  are  coj;cei-iied  ? — A.  We  were  very  much  emiiarrassed  tirst,  hecause  sometimes 
he  looked  reasonable  and  .sometimes  lie  looked  like  a  man  who  did  not  know  what  he  was 
saying.  .  ^ 

Q.  Finally  ?  A.  We  Uiade  up  our  minds  there  was  no  way  to  tixplain  his  conduct,, 
but  that  he  was  insane  ;  otherwise,  he  would  have  to  be  too  big  a  criminal.  \ 

Q.  As  the  agitation  Was  progressing,  did  you  notice  a  change  in  his  conduct,  in  his 
mind  ? — A.   A  great  change,  he  was  a  great  deal  more  excitable. 

Q.  At  the  time  of  the  rebellion,  you  fwmed  the  opinion  that  he  was  insane  ?- A. 
Yes.  I  can  tell  some  facts  to  that  ettect. 

Q.  K  it  is  not  too  long,  will  you  tell  what  it  is?  A.  Once  he  was  asked  by  tint 
people  to  e.xplain  his  views  on  religion,  on  religious  matters,  so  they  could  .see  through 
them.'  When  he  found  out  the  clergy  were,  against  him,  that  he  was  contradicted,  he 
turned  against  the  clergy,  particularly  against  me,  and  oppo.sed  the  clergy,  and  kept  fol- 
lowing me  into  the  tents  wherever  I  would  go.  He  compelled  me  to  leave  the  jilace, 
go  down  to  the  river  and  cross  to  the  other  side.  There  were  several  W(mien  there  who, 
came  to  shake  hand.i,  with  me.  The  prisoner  had  a. very  extraordinary  expression  upon 
his  face,  he  was  excfted  by  the  opinion  he  gave  upon  religion  The  prisoner  sjioke  'o  the 
women  and  said  :  "Woe  unto  you  if  you  go  to  the  pi-iests,  becau.se  you  will  be  killed  by 
the  priests."  All  of  a  sudden,  when  I  came  to  the  boat  which  was  not  very  ea.sy  to  get 
into,  the  prisoner  with  grea^  politeness  came  up  and  said,  "  Look  out  Father,  I  w  ill  lielj 
you  to  get  on  the  boat."       ;■ 

Q.  In  an  instant  he  pa.s.sed  from  great  rage  to  great  politeness  in  a  very  few 
minutes  ?  -A.  Yes.  The  tlrst  time  I  was  at  Batoche  I  was  brought  before  the  Council  by 
the  prisolier. 


I 


119  f 

Q.   When  you  first  came  to  Batoche,    wen-  you  friends  with  the  prisoner  ? — A.   Yes» 


Q.   You  repeat  wliiit  yi>u  liave  already  said    that   in  matters   political   and   religious' 
the  prisoner  was  not  iu  his  mind  ?  -A.    Yes. 

Q.   And  could  not  lie  controlled  ?     A.   Yes. 

*  r 

Q.   And  was  not  sane  ?  —A.   Yes. 

C^.  What  happened  at  tlie  Council  house  when  he  lirought  you  there  ?^A.  I  was 
to  render  on  account  of  my  conduct  as  a  priest  and  several  other  matters  a;j(ainst  the 
provisional  government.  The  jirisoner  j;ot  very  much  excited  and  called  nie  a  little 
tiger. 

t/.  Why  did  he  call  you  a  little  tiger  ? — A.  I  don't  know,  I  suppose  liecau.se  I  con- 
,tradicted  him.  It  was  alxmt  ten  o'clock  when  I  asked  to  go,  late  at  night,  and  tlien  the 
prisoner  liecame  very  polite  and  offered  a  carriagi^  to  convey  me.  The  Council  was  in 
the  mom  al)ove,  and  there  was  a  stairs  I  had  to  go  down,  and  I  had  a  parcel  in  my  hands 
under  my  arms.  With  extraordinary  politeness,  the  prisoner  took  the  parcel  and  said 
"  Fathei',  you  may  hurt  yourself. " 

Q.  Did  he  ever  .show  you  a  little  hook  in  which  he  had  written  those  prophecies  in 
the  liliHxl  of  the  liutfalo  as  to  the  future  of  this  counti-y  ? — A.  I  heard  of  it  hut  I  never 
saw  it,  the  prisoner  never  spoke  to  me  about  tiie  hook. 

l!y  Mli.  C.\s(:u.\tx. 

Q.  It  was  when  the  prisoner  was  contradicted  that  he  liecame  uncontrollalile  ? — A. 
Yes,  that  is  what  I  said 

Q.    It  was  then  the  prisoner  liecame  uncontrollalile? — A    Ye.s,  and  at  other  times  to. 

()  The  Half-lireeds  did  not  contradiit  him  on  religious  matters  ?■ — A  Some  of  the 
Half-Iireeds  did  contradict  him. 

Q.   A  great  lUMnlier,  most  of  the  H  ilf-lireeds  followed   him  in  his  religious  views  ? 
— A.    I  cannot  say,  '"  most  '  would  lie  too  many. 

(^.   A  gi'eat  nundier  ?      A.   Yes,  and  .several  did  not  dare  to  express  their  views. 

<^.  Ilefore  the  reliellion  liegaii  he  was  (piiet  and  .sane  in  mind  ? — A  Yes,  relatively, 
e.vcept  .sometimes,  when  he  was  contradicted,  as  1  said  this  morning.  j 

ij  When  do  you  fix  the  commencement  of  the  relieilion  ] — A.  The  ISth  of  March. 
/The  prisoner  came  himself  and  proclaimed  the  rehellion. 

-Q.  He  made  you  take  an  oath  of  neutrality  towards  the  provisional  government, 
Iduring  the  relieliion  .'  -A.  No,  there  was  no  oath  liut  there  was  a  wi-itten  promise,  cou- 
fcernin;*  the  exercise  of  the  ministry 

tj.   Was  it  in  terms  of  neutrality  towards  the  provisional  government  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.   You  said  there  was  no  other  Way  to  explain  his  conduct  than  to  say  he   was   in- 
sane oi-  a  great  criminal,  and  you  would  rather  say  he  was  insane.  Rather  than  say  he  was 
ji  great   crimin:d,  you    would    say   he  was   insane  f — A.   I    did    not   say    that,  liut    in   my 
|mind  it  was  the  liest  way  to  ex'jilain  it. 

Q.  You  had  naturally  a  great  deal  of  friendship  for  the  pri.soner? — A.  I  could  not 
[liave  friendshij),  liecause  I  did  not  know  him  at  the  beginning,  and  afterwards,  when  I 
[l»ecame  acquainted  with  him,  the  friendship  was  broken  off. 

l^t.  lietween  the  time  when  he  came  to  the  Mission  and  the  time  you  had  a  rupture 
[with  hiin,  is  it  not  true  that  you  and  he  were  friends,  that  you  had  a  great  deal  of  friend- 
iship  for  him  ?  —  A.   Yes,  as  I  would  have  for  you. 

y.    Religion  has  a  great  inrtuence  on  Half-breeds  ? — A.   Y]  yhat  sense  ? 


120 

Q.   Ill   a  geiit'i-jil  way.    Tlicy  are  a  religious  people   l.y  iiistinet  ?    ■  A.    Yes,  religifm 
lias  a  <;i-eat  iiittueiu'e  with  them. 


FhA!«i,-oi8   Rov  .sworn,  e.\aiiiine<l  l>y  Mr.  FlTZP.MHUK. 

Louiii  Uourget,  iiiterj^reter. 

Q.   You  are  a  tlfiftor  of  lueclecine  ? — A.   \'es. 

y.   iti  the  city  of  Qneljec  ?  —A.   Yes,- 1  belong  to  Qiiehec. 
'    Q.   Whibt  is  your  position  in  (^ueliec  ?      A.    For  a  great  inwnlier  cif  years  I  hav  e  lieeii 
l^ietlical  supel-iuteiuleiit  aiul  one  <if  the  proprietors  of  tlie  lunatie  asylum  of  IJeauiKirt. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  lieen  connected  with  the  asylum  as  a  superintendi-nt  ?  — 
A.    More  thiHi  tifteen  or  si.Kteen  years. 

Q.  You  are  also  a  iiifmher  of  the  Society  of  .Vmeiican  .  .  .  .  of  the  Siniety  of  the 
SuperinteiKlent.s^f  the  insane  Asylums  of  America  ? — A.  Yes. 

y.  During  the.se  tifte»n  or  si.vteen  years,  yoiy  duties  called  you  to  maki-  a  special 
.study  of  iJm'  diseases  of  the  lirain  ?  Is  it  not  true  that  it  has  lieen  necessary  for  you  to  make 
a  s|M'cial  study  of  diseases  of  the  liraiii  >. — A.  Yes,  it  was  my  duty  to  go  to  the  principal 
jasylums  in  the  I'nited  tStutes,  and  .see  how  the  patients  were  treated  there. 

<j.  Had  vou  any  connection  with  tin-  asylum  at  ISeauport,  in  IS7."i  and  IH"*)?  - 
-A:-  Yes. 

Q.    You  were  at  that  time  supeiintenilenl  of  the  asylum  .' — A.    ^  es. 

"'y.    In  those  years  or  aliout  that  time,  did  you  hayc  occasion  to  see  the  prisoner  .'      .\. 
Ctytainly,  many  times. 

Q.   Where  <lid  you  see  him  ?   -A.   In  the  a.syluni. 

y.  Can  you  tell  the  date  ?  A.  Y'es,  the  date  was  taken  from  the  register  when  I 
left  Queliec.  ' 

Q.  What  date  is  that  '.  —A.  I  took  the  entry  from  tin-  register  in  the  hospital  In  the 
beginning  of  this  month. 

l^.    Was  \w  admitted  with  all  the  formalities  reipilred  liy  law  ; — .\.    Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  what  time  he  left  the  asyluin  '. — .V.  He  was  discharged  aliout 
the  21st  .Innuary,  after  a  residence  in  the  hou.se  of  ahout  nineteen  months. 

Q.  Had  you  occasion  to  study  at  that  time  the  mental  disea.se  liy  which  the  pri.soni^" 
was  affected  ? — A.   Yes. 

t^.  l)id  you  haxe  relations  with  him  during  that  time  and  did  ymi  \yatcli  him  care- 
fully during  that  time  '. — A.    Not  eVeiy  day,  hut  very  often. 

Q.  Can  you  .say  now  what  mental  disease  the  prisoner  was  then  suffering  fn>m  '.^ 
A.   He. was  suffering  from  what  is  known  hy  aijthoiities  as  niagalomania. 

Q.  Will  you  give  the  symptoms  of  this  disease  ?  .\.  Many  .symptoms  of  the  di.sei«ie 
are  found  in  the  ordinary  maniacs.  The  particular  characteristic  of  the  malady  is  that  |n 
all  cases  they  show  great  juilgment,  in  alt  ca.ses  not  immediately  connected  with  tike 
particular  disease  with  which  tliey  suffer. 


tely  connected  with   tike 
lors,  what  are  the  otiifr 


Q.    Will  you  speak  from  meiiiory  or  liy  refering  to  the  authors,  wiiat  are  tlie  otiifr 
symptoms  of  this  disease  ?  -A.   They  sometimes  give  you  reasons  which  would  he  reasoli- 
alde  if  they  were  not  .starting  from  a  fal.se  idea.   They  are  very  elever  on  those  di.scu.ssiol 
and  they  have  a  te'ndeiicy  to  irritability  when  you  (|uestion  or  doubt  their  menta.l'coml 
tion,  because  they  are  under  a  strong  impression  that   they  are  right  and  they  consider  It 
to  l>e  an  insult  when  you  try  to  bring  theui  to  reason  again.     On  ordinary  ipiestions  thtl 


121 

may  l>e  reasonable  and  sometimes  may  be  very  clever.     In  fact,  without  cai-eful  watching 
they  would  lead  one  t)  think  that  they  were  well. 

Q.  Was  lie  thei-e  some  weeks  or  niontlis  before  you  ascertained  his  mental  condition  ? 
— A.  Ye.s,  1  waited  till  then  to  classify  him  as  to  his  mental  condition.  We  wait  a  few 
weeks  before  classifying  the  patients. 

Q.  Docs  a  feeling  of  pride  occupy  a  prominent  position  in  that  mental  di.sea.se  f  A. 
Yes  dirt'erent  forms,  religion  and  there  are  great  many  with  ]>ride.  AVe  have  kings  with 
us. 

Q.    Is  the  (piestion  of  selfishnofts  or  egotism  pi'oniinent  in  these  cases? — A.  Yes. 

C,>.  Arc  they  liable  to  change  their  aHcctions  rapidly  ?-  -A.  Yes,  because  they  are 
KU.sceptible  to  the  least  kind  of  attraction. 

Q.  In  that  particular  malady  are  the  |)atients  generally  inclined  to  be  sanguine  as  to 
tlie  success  of  their  project  ?,  A.  The  ditKculty  is  to  make  them  believe  that  they  will  not 
have  success  :  you  cannot  bring  them  to  chani^e,  that  is  ii  characteristic  of  the  disease. 

Q.  Are  people  who  sutler  of  this  particular  form  of  disease  liable  to  be  per:  mently 
cured,  or  are  they  liable  to  fall  buck  into  tlie  old  malady  ?  -A.  They  generally  riinain  in 
that  condition,  they  may  have  sensibh^  moments  and  th<^   intermission  wouldn  t  imerfiie. 

().  In  a  case  of  this  kind,  cihi1<1  a  casual  obsei-ver,  without  any  medical  experience, 
form  an  estimate  as  to  the  state  of  the  man's  mind  ?-  A.  Not  usually,  unless  he  makes  a 
special  .study  of  the  case.     There  is  more  or  less  ditterenee  ifi  each  case. 

i}.  \Vlii>t  is  the  position  of  the  mind  of  a  man  sutferin;;  from  this  iliseasc,  in  ivffreme 
to  other  suhjects  whicii  do  not  come  within  the  radius  of  his  mania?  -A.  Tliev  will 
answer  i|Uestions  as  anv  other  man  with  a  sens,:  of  reason,  it  is  only  when  they  touch 
the  spot    of  their  monomania  that  they  beeome  delirious. 

(J.    You  stated  thai  tlie  pijsoner  left  the  asylum  in   1S7^>?      .V.     In  .lanuaiy   ls7f<. 

i}.    Have  ycHl  ever  seen  him  from  that  time  till  yesterday  ?      .\.    No,  never. 

1^.  llo  you  recognize  him  perfeitly  as  the  siime  person  who  was  in  your  asylum  iit 
ISjti  and    IS7S?       .\.    Yes. 

i^.  Were  you  jireseiit  at  the  examination  of  the  w!tne.-.ses  that  took  jilace  today 
and  yesterday  ?      .\.   Partly. 

l^.  I 'id  you  hear  the  witnesses  describing  the  actions  of  the  prisoner  as  to  his  pecu- 
li(ir  \  lews  on  religion,  in  reference  to  his  power,  to  his  hoping  to  succeed  the  Pope  and  as  to 
lijis  prophecies  yestenlav  and  today  ?  — A.    Yes. 

(,).  From  what  you  heard  from  those  w  itne.s.se.s,  and  from  the  symptoms  tlieyjaove 
have  been  exhiliited  liy  the  piisoMer,are  yon  now  in  a  i)osition  to  say  whether  or  not  at 
liat  time  he  was  a  man  of  sound  mind  ?  -.\.  I  am  iierfectly  certain  that  when  the  prisoner 
las  under  care,  he  was  not  of  sound  mind,  but  lie  became  cured  liefore  he  left,  more  or 
I'.ss  ;  but  from  what  I  In  ard  here  to  day  1  am  ready  to  say  that  I  believe  on  those  occa- 
fions  his  mind  was  unsound,  and  that  he  was  lali aring  under  the  disease  so  well  des- 
[••ibed  by   Dagcaist. 

Q.    Do  you  believe  that  under  the  state  of  mind  as  described  by  the  witnesses  and  to 

liicli  you  refer.that  he  was  capable  or  incapable  of  knowingthe  nature  of  the  acts  whicli 

|e  did?  —  .\.   No,  I  do  not  lielieve  that  he  was  in  a  condition  to  be  the  niaster  of  his  acts 

(1  I  positively  swear  it,  and  1  have  jieople  of  the  same  charaeter  under   my  supervision. 

ii.   Will  you  swear  from  the  knowledge  you  have  heard  ?     A.   From  the  witnesses  ? 

Q.   That  the  man  did  not  know   what  he  was  doing  or  whether  he  was  contrary  to. 
Iw'  in  reference  to  the  particular  delusion?   -A.   No,  and  for  another  reason,  the  same 
f  laracter  of  the  disea.se  is  shown  in  the  last   jieriod,  the  same  as  when  he  was  with  us 


h. 


■t| 


^ 


r 


122 


■there  is  no  diftereuce.  If  there  was  any  difference  in  the  syuiptoni«,  I  would  have  doutits, 
but  it  was"  of  the  same  character  so  well  describeil  by  Daj^oust,  who  is  taken  as  an  autho- 
rity and  has  been  adopted  in  France  as  well  as  in  America  and  England.    , 

Q.  The  o])inion  you  have  formed  as  to  the  soundness  of  his  mind  is  based  on  the 
facts  tliat  the  symptoms  disclosed  by  the  witnesses  here  y^erday  and  to-day  are  to  a 
large  extent  identical  with  the  symptoms  of  his  malady  as  (flfclose<l  while  lie  was  at'your 
Asylum  ? — A.   Yes.  i  .       • 

By  Mr.  (  )sler.  '  "        .  • 

(j.   You  arc  one  of  the  projirietors  of  theasylum  ?-^A.   Tes. 

Q.  It  is  a  private  asylum  under  government  supervision  ? — A.  It  has  theTharacter 
of  a  private  asylum  as  to  the  condition  of  tiie  board  k)f  the  patients,  but  it  is  iv  public 
institution  in  that  sense  of  the  word,  we  receive  patients  by  order  of  the  Government. 

Q.  But  it  i.s  a  j)rivate  asylum  as  far  as  its  financial  basis  is  concerned  .'•  —  A.  No, 
becau.se  it  is  ruled  by  the  tiovernment. 

Q.    Is  it  owned  by  the  Government  or  l»y  the  projjrietors  ? — A.,  By  the  projirietors. 

Q.  It  is  only  subject  to  inspection  by  the  (Joyernment? — .\.  To  insjiecting  and 
visitinj^  besides. 

(^.  Is  the  profit  or  jo.ss  of  the  establishment  liorne  by  the  proprietors  ?--X.  Yes,  liy 
tiie  proprietors.' 

().  What  is  tiie  extent  of  your  acconnnodation,  how  many  patients? — A.  I  do  not 
know  whetlier  you  have  the  right  to  ask  tliese  nuestions. 

Q.  How  many  patients  have  you  got? — A.  (Sometimes  the  number  increases  and 
sometimes  it  diminishes,  acco,rding  to  the  discharges,  [think  there  would  be  an  average 
of  from  KOO  to  900. 

(/  It  is  from  the  profit  of  keeping  tliese  patients  that  tlie  jiroprietors  make  money  ? 
—A.    .And  to  pay  expenses  and  the  interest  upon  a  large  capital  put  in. 

Q.  You  are  paid  l»y  the  (iovernment  and  paid  by  private  patients  ?  A.  When  we 
have  them. 

^■Q.   And  the  proprietors  manage  it  as  a  place  to  cure  and   where  they  board  these 
^  tliousand  people?  -.\.   We  have  a  place  to  cure  and  take  care  of  tlio.se  poor  people  who 
■cannot  take  care  of  themselves. 

Q.    Who  manages  the  institution  ? — A.   There  is  a  medical  superintendent. 

(J.  Who  manages  the  financial  part  of  the  institution  and  looks  after  the  bread  and 
butter  of  the  i)atients  ?   -A.   We  liave  a  treasurer  to  look  after  that 

Q.  You  have  a  medical  superintendent  to  look  after  t^e  medical  department  ?  — 
.A.  Yes,  and  we  have  rules  and  regulations  of  the  house. 

Q.  The  proprietors  only  have  a  general  supervision  ?— A.  More  than  that,  I  my.st;lf 
aiu  a  specialist. 

y.   Yon  are  (juite  a  .specialist  in  keeping  a  boarding  house  ? — A.   No. 

Q.  .You  have  to  look  after  that  ?  —A.   No. 

Q.   Who  looks  after  the  fiii'incial  part? —.\.    My  co-associates. 

(J.   You  do  not  look  after  that  ? — .\.   No. 

Q.  You  look  after  the  patients? — A.  Yes  I  take  a  special  interest  in  the  ins  me 
and  those  who  require  treatment. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  whether  you  ever  prescribed  or  looked  personally  after  fclie 
pr  saner  ?^A.   I  did. 


t 


123 

Q.  Under  what  name  was  the  prisoner  in  the  Asylum  ? — A.  Under  tlie  name  of 
Laroehelle. 

Q.   Under  wliat  name  does  he  appear  in  your  books  ? — A.  That  is  it. 

Q.  Did  you  know  his  riglit  name  ? — A.  No,  I  was  not  present  when"  he  entered  the 
first  day. 

Q.  Have  you  j^ot  the  papers  witli  you  under  whicli  you  liekl  him  ? — A.  I  have  this 
memorandum  liook. 

0.   I  want  to  see  tlie  papers  ? — A.   No,  I  have  not  lirought  the  books. 

Q.  Have  you  any  papers  showing  wliat  di.sease  lie  had  ^nd  under  whose  certificate 
he  was  confined  ? — A.   I  cannot  give  you  what  I  have  not  got. 

Q.  There  are  papors  and  certificates  filed  1 — A.  Tliose  jjapers  are  kept  by  the  Prov- 
incial Secretary  and  I  would  liave  to  get  them  from  him. 

Q.   Where  did  you  make  that  note  from  ?~A.  From  the  register,  taking  the  e.xact 

date. 

t 
Q.    It  is  from  that  register  only  that  you  are  able  to  speak  of  the  case  ?--A.   Nh,  it 
:is  only  a  help  to  my  memory  so  as  to  be  exact  as  to  date. 

Q.  Among  the  thousand  patients  tliat  were  there  at  the  time,  have  you  a  perfect 
r«L-iillectii)U  of  his  symtoms  .' — A.  Yes,  becau.se  he  was  a  special  case  and  gave  me  a  good 
<leal  of  care.  , 

Q.  Did  you  ini|uire  into  his  former  liistory  ?  A.  No,  except  as  to  the  fact  of  hrs 
disease. 

Q.  You  did  not  get  the  history  of  the  patient  ? — A.  I  asked  .some  questions  as  to  the 
conditions  of  iiis  character  and  his  di.sease. 

Q.  Was  ther('  necessity  liy  reason  of  his  violence. to  have  him  under  restraint? 
— A.    Yes,  sometimes  he  was  very  violent.  ► 

t^.   You  found  out  what  his  name  was  ?- — A.   He  confes.sed  to  nie  who  he  was. 

Q.  That  violence  was  after  he  was  admitted  into  the  Asylum  ? — A.  Yes. 

y.  All  this  treatment  would  appear  in  the  books,  there  would  be  a  history  of  the 
case  ! — A.   Not  always,  it  depends.      It  is  in  the  medical  book.  . 

■Q.   You  have  no  book  or  copy  of  the  book  here  ? — A.   No. 

Q.    You  have  brought  us  nothing! — A.    E.vcept  what  I  am  able  to  tell  from  memory. 

IQ.   You  knew  a  long  time  liefore  that  you  were  going  ■to  be  examined  as  a  witness 
this  case,  you   had  been  spoken  to  about  it  shortly  after  the  capture  of  the  prisoner  I 
— jA.   No,  I  was  asked  by  telegraph. 

I     Q.    You  were  seen  by  the  friends  of  the  prisoner  shortly  after  he  was    arrested  ' 
-|a.    No. 

•     <^.   When  where  you  spoken  to  about  giving  evidence  at  the  trial  ? — A.  Some   days 
beq)re  the  trial  came  on. 

Q.   Did  it  not  strike  you  tliat  it  would  be  imptu'tant  to  have  a  written  history  of  tlie 
caie,  the  cause  of  his  committment,  did  it  not  strike  you  that  that  would  be  a  matter  of 
inJiortance  in  considering  a  case  of  this  kind  ?  -A.  No,  I  thought  they  would  ask  me  m^ 
op^iion  of  the  case. 

Q.  That  is  what  you  tiiougiit  would  be  satisfactory  ?— A.  I  never  thought  of  coming 
^'tBiU  at  first. 

\).   At  the  time  he  was  there,  you  attended  how  many  cases  person  a 


— A.   I  saw  tli«ymQs( 


124 


iQst  iiiiiiortant  cases,  and  took  a  great  deal  of  intfrost  in  thoin  on  account 
of  tlie  ivsponsiliility  of  the  treatment. 

Q.  And  till-  others  would  carry  out  "the  treatment? — A.  They  would  consult  me  anti 
I  would  consult  them. 

Q.    How  many  supeiintendonts  have  got  ?  -A.    None,  co-as.sociates.  I 

Q.  How  many  patients  had  you  under  your  innnediate  treatment  in  the  year  77  1 
.-t-A.   I  am  not  aide  to  tell  you. 

■i.    Q  _  100  cases  ; — A.  No,  we  liave  not  100  cases  of  acute  mania  under  our  hands  unfor- 
tunately. ,  j  '    "*■  . 

■     Q.    Htnv  nriny  did  you  liave  uiuler  your  pei-sonal  treatment  ?     .\.   The  cases  of  whiih 
I  make  a  special  study  aKe  acute  mania. 

Q.  How  many  of  such  cases  would  you  hdve  in  a  year? — \.  Not  many  unfortu- 
nately. 

Q.    How  many  in  a  yibnv'^.  —A.    2o  or  :50  would  he  ahout   the  average  of  acute  cases, 

Q.  We  will  speak  of  '77  ;  can  you  give  us  the  names  of  those  men  whom  yipu  tnati  d 
in  .'77  ? — .\.  1  will  j^ive  you  some  of  the  names,  1  cannot  tell  you  all.  If  you  mention  the 
names  I  would  know  about  them. 

Q.   The  treatment  of  those  persons  is  gone  fiom  your  mind  ?     A.   .More  or  less. 

Q.    You  see  the  value  of  written  testimony  here  !      \.    Thi'rc  arc  certain  lases. 

<^.  Did  you  not  kiiow  that  this  luan  was  Kiel  ?  -.\.  I  heard  that  he  was  and  he  him- 
self admitted  to  me  that  his  name  was  Kiel. 

<J.   Who  jiut  him  in  the  Asylum  ?      A.   The  (Government. 

Q.  On  whose  certificate,  on  what  medical  certificate  was  he  put  in.' — .\.  I  do  not 
know,  it  is  in  the  department  of  tl.ie  Provincial  Si«-retary.  We  adndt  them  as  sent  liy 
the  (iovernment. 

Q.   \'ou  aie  |)aiil  hyl  the  (ioverinncnt  .'    -A.   A'es.  ] 

Q  That  is  the  local  (ioviMUment  of  (jueliec  ? — \.  Yes,  tiny  see  that  eveiythiiijr  is 
correct.      Tliey  have  a  sjxnial  ])liysician  for  that. 

Q.  You  .sav  the  main  feature  of  this  di.sease  is  what  !  what  is  the  leading  feature 
of  this  disease  dj^ou  say  !  do  you  .say  it  is  a  ti.\ed  idea  iiicapalde  of  cliange  !  A.  That 
one  thihg  I  may  say^ 

<J.  Will  yon  an.swer  the  ipiestion,  do  you  say  that  the  leadinj;  featuiv  of  theiliseil.se 
is  a  fixed  idea  incapalile  of  change  liy  reasoning? — A.    I  <lid  not  succeed  in  changing.  .  .  . 

Q.  I  ask  you  is  thatj  the  leading  feature  of  the  di.sease  ? — .\.  That  is  one  of  the  f^-a- 
tures. 

<i.  Is  it  the  leading  fe.iture  .' — .\.  It  is  (ule  of  them,  it  is  one  of  the  characteristie 
features 

<i.  A  fi.\ed  idea  witlj  i%  special  and)itiou  incapalile  of  change  hy  reasoning  ? — A.  ¥es, 
We  did  not  succeed  in  changing  the  idea  of  the  patient,  t 

Q.  Well,  that  ti.xed  Jidea  is  beyond  his  coutnd  !  \.  I  wouhPnt  lie  ]irepared  toliy 
entirely.  -        j 

Q     If  it  is  beyond  hjis  control,  he  is  an  iu.sane  uian  ?     .\.  Yes. 

Q.   Is  not  this  fixed  idea  beyond  his  control?- — .\.   ^  es. 

Q  If  within  hiscf>nl(rol,  it  is  an  indication  of  sanity  i — .\.  That  he  was  trying  to  Jet 
better,  lie  may  have  ha:(l  intermissions  in  which  lie  understood  his  condition. 


■-•0-. 


12;1 


1^.  If  it  is  suliject  to  uoutiol,  it  is  not  a  tixed  idea,  that  is  what  we  have  agreed  upon 
us  tliH  lt;adiii<r  characteristic,  do  you  understand  ? — A.   I  do  not  know  what  you  areaXtf^r. 

•  ^.  If  this  idea  is  sutiject  to  control  tlien  tlus  man  is  sane? — A.   There  may  l>e  inter- 
missions wlien  he  can  control  himself,  hecausc  then  the  insanity  disiippears. 

<^.    Aud  then  tliero  is  a  lucid  interval!  —  A.    Yes. 

*i.    Durin;;  thf  period  of  the  insanity  the    idea  possesses  the  man   and  it  is  not  con- 
trollal.le  ;— A.    No. 


Q.    Is  that  tin-  leiulinj,'   feature  of  the   disease  .' — .\.   Partly,   do  vou   kW)w  of  auv 
ler!  •  \ 

Q.,  I  an>  not  an  expert  in  in.sanity,  can  you  jjiNe  me  any  other  leadin<j;  feature  of  the 
ili.sease  ! — .\.    I  have  no  other  feature  to  'Aye. 


otl 


(^.  Tiiat  is  the  only  one  you  can  dcscrilic  f— A.  I  j,',ive  you  the  features  aiid  charac- 
teristics of  the  disease  well  enou;;!). 

Q.  I  HIM  j^oiiij;  to  keep  you  to  tluit  unless  you  want  to  eniav<;e  upon  it.  I  am  ;;oili<i  to 
liuild  uiv  theory  upon  tlciit  :  you  can  eidar;,'e  it  as  mudi  us  you  like  now,  l)Ut  do  not  j,'o 
liack  upon  me  afterwards  .'  Is  there  any  other  leailin<j;  featuie  of  the  disease  .'-  -.\.  I  have 
ijiven  y<iu  the  jirincipal  chaiacteristics  of  lii^  disease. 

<).  I  want  to  jf.'t  the  peculiar  characteristic-^  of  thi.-.  form  of  mania  .'  .\.  Tiiey  liave 
illtermi^-^ions,  sometimes  f<ir  month.-^  and  sometimes  for  days.  The  lea--!  contradiction 
excite:,  them. 

iy  Til.  re  is  a  class  of  healthy  interinissions, .sometimes  a  man  likes  beer  and  sometimes 
uliiski'v.  I  want  to  tjet  the  characteristic  that  distin<;uish'  him  from  a  liealthy  man,  not 
lliose  fli.it  we  ha\e  in  common  with  the  in.sane  / — A.  We  tilways  aiiswer  reasonaMv.  liut 
when  a  mm  comes  and  |>retends  to  know  e\ervtliinL'  and  talks  nonsense,  we  expect  that 
to  a  certain  extent  he  has  lost  his  reason. 

().  We  want  to  net  at  the  leadinij  characteristic,  you  have  j;iven  us  one  feature  is 
then'  only  the  one  featuie  ,'  If  tlieie  are  any  other  features,  say  so  !  \.  I  won't  nive 
you   any. 

Will  you  stick  to  it  .'     .^.    Yes 

y.  Then  what  leading  idea  not  suliject  to  cliani,'e  liy  reason  is  it  that  you  have  fixed 
upon  ill  the  e\  ideiice  yesterilay  or  to-day  lirinjjinn  you  to  the  conclusion  that  he  is  of  un- 
sound mind  !--.\.    It  is  because  of  .some  symptoms. 

i)  Tell  me  tile  symptoms  that  lirinjj;  you  to  the  conclusion  that  this  man  is  within 
the  rule  vou  have  laid  down  .*  Tell  me  the  facts  that  hrinir  him  within  that  rule  ?  .\. 
The  facts  are  that  he  has  always  kept  that   diaracteri.stic. 

Q.    .Answer  that   ipiestion  ( 

Air.   FlTZH.\TKICK. — This  «  itness  has  been  siieajving  in   English  fiu-  some  time  past. 
I  ■  the  witness  does  not  understand  the  (piestions  jiroperly  he  should  answer  tlie<iue.stioivs 
French. 
.Mr.  Osl.KK.  —  If  t\u',  man  wants  to  hide  himself  under  the  Frencli.  he  can  do  so. 

i(^.  Vou  understand  what  I  mean  .' — A.  Parlez-moi  en  francais. 
AIb.  Osler. — It  will  be  for  the  jury  to  say  whether  he  is  makiny:  the  chaiiire  at  liis 
•n  sUiTirestion  or  at  that  of  the  counsel  on  the  other  si<le. 
Q.  Having  given  a  rule  to  test  this  insanity  what  fact  is  there  disclosed  in  the  evi- 
nce that  leads  you  to  .say  that  the  prisoner  comes  within  the  rule  ? — .\.  That  part  of 
e  evidence  given  by  the  clergy  to  day  shows  in  a  jiositive  manner  that  the  prisoner  has 
inifested  .symptoms  that  we  meet  in  megalomania. 


126  I 

I 

prisoner  within  the  rule  which  you  have  laid  down? — A.   I  want  to  take  the  fact  proxwl 
by  the  evidence 

Q.  Tell  me  the  fact  upon  which  you  rely '.' — A.  The  prisoner  gets  his  tlieoi-y  from 
the  idea  that  he  has  a  mission.  •  ' 

Q  Do  you  understaud  that  to  be  tlie  fixed  idea  not  controllable  by  reason  1 — A.  I 
ibelieve  so,  bsciuse  reason  has  never  so  far  succeeded  in  changing  that   idea  tliat  lie  has, 

Q  Is  that  the  only  reason  you  have  for  saying  that  the  jirisoner  is  insajie  ?-  A,  It 
is,  and  I  believe  it  to  1)6  sufficient. 

Q  Is  it  consistent  with  a  man  laVioring  undei-  an  idea  not  controUaiile  by  rca.-i  n, 
that  he  would  abandon  that  idea  for  S';i.'i,000  ?  * 

/  Mr.  Fitzp.\trick. — I  object  to  that  ;  that  has  not  been  proved. 

His  Honor.  —  What  is  the  ({uestion  ? 

Mr.  <  )sler  — Is  it  consistent  with  a  man  having  an  idea  not  controlhilile  by  leason 
■  that  he  will  Siliandon  that  idea  for  S^."5.'j,000  (     Let  that  be  a  liypotlietical  ([Uestion  .' 

Mr   FiTZPATHifK.^I  object  to  tlie  ijuestion. 

His  Hoxok. — He  can  put  hypothetical  (|uestions. 

Mr.  OsLtR. — My  learned  friend  must  know  that  the  ipiestion  is  regular  and  should 
not  interfere  at  a  critical  part  of  the  examination,  so  as  to  give  the  witness  a  cue. 

Mr.  Fitzp.\trick. — I  did  not  have  any  such  intention.  M'e  have  the  riglit  to  object 
and  we  intend  to  exercise  that  right. 

Mr   Osler.: — You  should  not  exercise  it  in  such  a  way  as  to  give  the  witnes(<  a~cire7~ 
That  is  the  second  cue  you  havfe  given  the  witness     You  gave  a  liiui  cue   in   regard    to- 
speaking  in  French. 

Q/  Will  you  answer  the  (|Uestion:  is  it  consistent  with  the  leading  feature  of  this 
disease,  an  idea  not  controllable  by  reason,  that  he  should  aJiandon  that  idea  for  money  / 
—A.  1  think  it  is  possible  that  the  prisoner  niiglit  want  to  obtain  the  money  to  attain 
the  object  he  has  in  view.  i 

Q.  It  may  be  consistent  if  he  wants  the  money  for  the  object  he  wishes  to  obtain  ? 
—A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  that  answ^er  is  consistent  with  the  idea  tluit  he  is  not  able  to  con- 
trol his  actions  ! — A.    Yes,  it  gives  it  more  strength. 

Q  Wherein  does  that  ditter  from  the  idea  of  a  sound  mind  .' — .\.  It  is  very  imjior- 
tant  in  this  case  particularly,  the  patient  shows  great  ability  in  taking  the  necessary 
means  to  accomplish  the  particular  mission  that  he  believes  lias  been  given  him,  he 
was  reasoning  fi-om  a  false  basis,  and  that  is  a  characteristic  of  this  disease. 

Q.   Do  you  agree  with  this  proposition  :   •'  An  insane  delusion  is  never  the  result  of 

reasoning  and  reflection"? — A.   I  don't  understand  what  you  want  to  get  at. 

■     -i  '•  .  i' 

Q.   1   want  you  tQ  give  an   answer,  do  you  agree  with  that   proposition,  that    :ia 

insane  delusion  is  never  the  result  of  reason  and  reflection  ?— A.    I  Vielieve  that  he  makes 

false  reasoning  from  a  false  principle. 

Q.  Is  delusion  produced  by  reasoning  and  deduction? — A.  It  has  been  by  hallfci- 
nation  and  i 

Q.  That  is  not  an  answer  to  my  cjuestion.  I  want  to  know  whether  a  delusionjan 
insane  delusion,  may  be  the  result  of  reasoning  and  deduction,  or  is  it  always  the  pro- 
duction of  the  di.sease?— A.   Sometimes,  not  al^'ays^ometimes  by  false  inspiration. 


Q.   Sometimes  by  Bane  inspiration  ? — A.   Y''es. 


r 


127 


H.  You  won't  answer  my  ((uestion  I — A.   I  have  done  my  best. 

Q.    Have  you  not  the  capacity  to  understand  it  ? — A.  That  may  be  your  opinion.. 

Q.  Take  an  inwine  delusion  in  a  man's  head,  can  it  be  brought  by  reasoning  and 
deduction,  or  is  it  the  outcome  of  the  disease  ?   -A.   It  is  the  consecjuence  of  his  disea.se. 

(J.  And,  therefore,  it  has  nothinj;  to  do  with  reason  and  deduction  ?— A.  I  believe 
th*t  when  a  patient  is  under  the  influence  of  htnlucination,  he  is  quite  lieyond  control. 

Q.  Von  say  it  is  tlie  Krst  principle  of  irresponsibility,  whether  it  is  the  result  of 
disease  or  wliether  it  is  tlit^  result  of  rea.son,  distorted  reason  if  you  will,  it  is  only  by 
(lisea.se  that  tiie  insane  delusion  is  prtKlueed  .'  A.  Yes,  by  the  dL-^turbauce  of  the  brain 
which  there  is  in  every  case. 

(I.  .Vml  it  is  by  reason  of  it  being  a  product  of  the  disease  that  it  is  not  controllable "t 
— .V     It  is  a  conse(|uence  of  it. 

Q.  Wliv  do  vou  say  this  prisoner  during^tliis  time  had  no  knowledge  of  right  from 
wrong  .' — A.  I  say  that  the  ]irisouer  was  under  the  influence  of  his  delusion  that  he  had 
a  .special  mi.ssion  to  fulKI. 

i^.  From  what  facts  in  evidence  do  you  say  that  the  prisoner  could  not  distinguish 
lietween  right  and  wrnni,' l-*  .V.  They  never  could  prove  to  him  that  that  mission  never 
existed. 

.Mr.  Krr/.P.\TiUt'K.  —  It  is  impossible  for  us  to  accejit  such  a  tran.slation  as  is  now 
bi'ing  given  of  the  evidence. 

Mr.  ( iiiKKNsiiiKl.lRS.     -Tlu^  last  two  ijuestions  have  not  been  translated  properlv. 

^Ir.  <  )si.KH.  —  We  have  done  everything  we  (/ould  to  procure  a  translator,  we  did  not 
want  one  for  our  |iart  of  the  evidence,  and  it  was  for  the  defence  to  produce  one  in 
tendering  a  witness  wiiose  evidence  had  to  be  translated. 

.Mr.  Krrzi'.KTHUK. — I  say  it  is  entirely    wrong,   it  should  be  taken  down    in    French; 

Mr.  OsUKH.    -It  has  lieen  taken  down  in  French  as  well  as  in  English. 

Mr.  Fnzi'.vTiiicK.  -It  has  gone  to  the  jury  in  Englisli. 

M.  OsLKli.  The  witness  can  explain  him.self  in  English  but  was  told  not  to  do  so. 
it  was  not  my  dirticulty. 

/     Air    FlTZP\TRICK. — I  think  that  the  Act  of  '80  provides  for  the  use  of  both  langua- 

His  Ho\oK  Mr.  Justice  Riciiakusos. — The  court  can  take  the  best  interpreter  to  l>e 
hid. 

.Mr.  FiTZFJVTRiCK. — All  right,  if  you  say  so. 

Mr.  Robinson. — When  they  hear  it  improperly  translated,  they  should  say  so  and 
can,  Ite  repeated. 

I     WiT.N'EES.  ...  It  could  not  be  proved  to  him  that  the  mission  did  not  e.xist. 
I     His  Honor — Is  that  answer  correct  ? 
'l    A.  Yes. 

I    -^ir  OsLER. Q.   Is  that  the  only  reason  why  you  should  say  the  prisoner  could  not 

(list, inguish  between  right  aiid  wrong  ? 

I    His  Honor. The  reporter  liad  better  read  the  (luestion  to  him  and  see  whether  it 

hasj  been  correctly  translated. 

J"( Reporter  reiuling  fi-om  his  notes).  "From  the  facts  in  evidence,  do  you  say  the 
prilioiier  could  not  distinguish  between  right  and  wrong  i— A.  They  never  ceuld  prove  to. 
hiJi  that  that  mission  never  existed. 


128 


His  Honoh.  —Is  that  the  proper  answer? — A.  Witness,  yes 

Mr.  OsLER. — Q.  Is  that  the  only  reason  why  you  say  the  prisoner  could  not  dis- 
tinguish Wetween  right  and  wrong?  —A.   I  gi\e  lliat  as  one  of  tlie  reasons. 

Q  (Jive  that  .  .  .  .(iive  me  any  other  reason  ?— A.  The  reasons  given  hy  the  hi.st 
-witness. 

Q.  I  want  you  to  state  the  facts  that  the  witnesses  spoke  of,  from  which  you  came 
to  your  conclusion  ? — .V.  The  facts  are  that  he<  helieved  lie  had  a  mission  to  fulfil  in  the 
NoVtli-West. 

Q.  What  evidence  have  you  that  that  was  an  insane  delusion  ?  Hecaufe  lie  stated  he 
bad  a  lettf r  from  the  bishoj)  containing  such  an  allegation  1 — A.  I  never  heard  that  he 
was  inspired  )i\  such  a  letter. 

Q  I)  )you  siiy  that  any  man  claiming  to  he  insjiired  is  iii-sane  so  a^s  not  to  he  ahle 
to  distinguish  lietween  right  and  wrong  ?     A.    It  is  j>ossihle. 

Q.  Is  it  a  true  proposition  scieiititically  ? — A.  The  proposition  as  given  I >y  the  pa- 
tient i>  not  always  reasonahle. 

1         (^    Might  it  not  he  evidence  of  fraud  on  the  part  of  the  man  making  it  ? — A.    Not 
'when  the  same  idea  has  heen  sustained  at  different  times  without  reason. 

(I.  When  the  idea  is  sustained  from  time  to  time  it  is  only  sustained  with  insanity, 
is  tint  th,^  answer?  -\.    Yes  jiarticularly  with  that  kind  of  delirium. 

^         Q.   I) »  you  know  the  iiist^ny  of  Joseph  Smith  the  .Mormon,  wouUI  you  considfr  him 
insaiif  .' — .V.   No,  I  do  not  know  his  history. 

Kl.  [)  >  you  kn')\v  anything  (jf  Brigham  Young,  would  you  call  him  insane  .'  A.  To 
mv  iiiiiul  he  w.is  more  or  jess  insane.  / 

(^.  Would  you  call  lirigliam  Young's  ideas  of  prophetic  inspirations  inconsistent 
with  the  knowle<lge  of  what  is  right  and  wrong  ?  -A.  It  would  recpiire  an  examination. 
If  you  send  him  to  the  asylum  for  a  few  months,  I  will  make  a  study  of  the  case. 

Q.  Does  not  the  while  evidence  sustain  the  tliei>j'V  that  it  was  a  skilful  fraud  ?  -A. 
I  don  t  think  so.  1  siw  thf  i)iisciiier  at  my  place,  he  always  retained  the  impression  that 
he  had  a  mission,  wiien  he  could  have  none  and  he  had  nothing  to  gain  l)y  it. 

({.  I  am  asking  the  general  nuestion  whether  the  evidence  upon  which  von  have 
formed  your  ojjinion  is  not  consistent  witli  a  skilful  fraud  ?  —A.  It  iinglit  lie  possihle, 
there  might  he  such  an  undei-.standing,  hut  it  is  not  my  opinion. 

C^.    It  imiy  he  that  it  is  consistent  with  a  skilful  fraud  ?  -,\.  There  is  no  evidence  i 
this  case  that  can  prove  that  there  was  fraud. 

Q.    Do  you  say  the  evidence  is  inconsistent  with  a  skilful   fraud  ? — A.    When    I   ha 
the  jirisoner  under  my  care.  .  . 

Q.   I  am  asking  you  ahout  the  fact  iu  evidence  on  which  you  found  your  opinion 
-t-A.    In  the  mental  condition  of  the  prisoner,  I  think  he  is  not.  .  ,  ,  ? 

Q.  That  is  not  an  answer  at  all.   Can  you  give  me  an  answer? — A.  Put  the  (jueStii 
in  another  way.  ^  ^n 

(^.   If  you  cannot  answer  it    in   English   or   French,  I   may  as   well   let  you  go,  y! 
can  go..  j  .  |ou 

Dr.    Daniel  Ci..\hk,  sworn,  examined  hy  Mr.  Fitzpatrick. 
Q.  Y'ou  helong  to  Toronto,  do  you  not  / — A.  I  do^ 

().  What  is  your  position  there,   Doctor? — A.  A  superiiitendaiit  of  the  Toroil 
Lunatic  Asylum.  ■  fto 


129 


Q.  Ifave  you  Imil  any  experience  in  tlie  treatment  of  the  insane? — A.  A  small  expe- 
lit'LRf. 

Q.   Liniit<Hl  to  liow  many  years,  Doctor? — A.    Between  nine  and  ten  years. 

Q.  Ifas  it  lieen  your  fate  to  attend  (K-easionally  as  expert  in  case^.  of  lunacy? — 
A.  Yes,  very  often. 

*i.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  examine  tliis  prisoner  here  at  tiie  bar? — A.  I  examined 
liim  tlnt-e  times,  twice  yesterdaj'  and  once  this  morning. 

Q.  1)1(1  you  attend  at  the  examination  of  tlio  other  witnesses  in  this  case  ye.ster(!ay 
and  to-day  ?— A.   I  <li«l,  '  '  " 

Q.  From  what  you  heard  from  the  witnesses  here  in  court,  and  aKo  from  tlie  e.xami- 
nation  whicli  you  have  madefif  llie  accused,  are  you  in  a  position  to  form  any  opinion  as  to 
tlie  soundness  or  Ulisounchiess  of  liis  mind  ? — A.  Well,  assinning  the  fact  tiiat  the  wit- 
nesses told  the  truth,  1  ha\e  to  assume  that.  .  ,  .  and  assuminir  also  that  tlie  prisoner  at 
the  l.ai-  was  not  a  malingerer  (that  is  Kngli^h  1  lielie\e).  then  of  (•our>e  theie  i->  no  other 
conclusion  chat  any  reasiuialile  man  could  come  to.  fidm  my  ■~tancl-point,  of  course,  that 
that  man  who  held  these  \  lews  and  did  the^e  things  must  certaiidy  lie  of  insane  mind. 

ij.  |)o  you  consi<ler,  I  loctor,  that  a  person  suth'ring  from  >uch  unsoundness  of  ndnd 
as  you  say  that  this  man  is  sutleiiui,'  from,  is  capable  of  knowing  tlie  nature  <.f  the  acts 
which  llicy  (lo  ? — A.  Why,  the  insane  umleistand,  many  (pf  them,  the  nature  of  tjie  acts 
which  they  do,  except  in  dementia  cases,  and  melancholia,  and  cases  of  mania  even,  they 
often  know  what  they  do,  and-  can   tell   me  what    thev  ilid,  tell   all    aliout  it  afterwards. 


iiliout  a  man   not    kw 


what  he  is  doing,  simjily  liecause    he 


N, 


It  is  all  nonsense  to  talk 
is  insane.     - 

IJ.  Do  you  think  that  man  was,  in  the  circumstances  iletailed  liy  the  ditlerent  wit- 
nesses, in  a  position  to  lie  alile  to  say  or  lie  altle  to  judye  of  what  he  was  doiiii.'.  as  either 
wrong  or  contrary  to  law  .'A.  Well,  that  is  one  of  the  legal  metaphysical  distinctions 
in  reiiard  to  liLilit  and  wion;.',  and  it  is  a  dangerous  one.  s'imply  liecause  it  co\;ers  only 
part  iif  the  tiiith,  I  could  convince  any  lawyer  if  they  will  come  to  Toronto  Asylum, 
•fn  half  an  hour,  that  dozens  in  that  institution  know  liulit  and  wi-oiig,  lioth  in  abstract 
(ind  in  comrete,  and  vit  are  undoulitedly  insane.  The  ili.stiiietion  of  right  and  wj-ong 
i-o\irs  part  of  the/^rutfN  It  covers  the  lanrest  part  of  the  truth,  hut  the  large  minority 
lif  insane  do   kni/v   right    from  wrong,   it    is  one  of   these   metaphysical   suhtilities   that 

o  .'—A.    Well  the  law  Vers  find  it  in 


practical  men  in  asylums  know  to  lie  false. 


Q.    There  are  some 
he  liook>frand  thev  tak( 


iwyers  who  think  it  false  als 

it  for  granted  it  must  he  correct. 

Q.    Do  you  consider  from  the   knowledge  which   you  have  of  this  individual,  that  at 

the  time  the  events  detailed  by  the  witnesses   liere   took  place,  that  is  to  say.  in  march, 

pril   and    mav  last,  that  he  was  laboring  under  such  a  defect  of   reason   from  disease  of 

hi-  minil,  that  he  did  not  know  that  what  he  was  doing  was  wrong  f — A.    I  thin^^he  did 

now.      I    think    he  was  ipiite  capable  of  distinguishing  right  from  wrong. 

(^.  t^uotethe  particiilar  acts,l)oetor  ,' — A.  Well, to  ipiote  the  particular  act»,l  )iresuuie, 
i  '  yoii  were  to  aSk  him  to  detine  what  i«  right  and  wiiat  is  wrong,  he  could   possibly  give 
ou  a  j^ood  fletii,ition,  as  far  as  I  could  judge  from  my  examination  of  him. 

t  J.  Was  he  in  a  position  to  be  able  to  say  at  tliat  time,  and  to  act  at  that  time  as  an  or- 
dinaiy  sane  man  would  have  done  .'  -A.  Assuming  the  evidence  given  by  the  witnesses, 
hit-  (lid  not  act  as  a  sane  man  would  have  done,  for  this  reason,  that  no  sane  man  would 
lijive  imagine<l  that  he  could  come  into  the  Saskatchewan,  and  that  he  could  gather 
ijound  him  such  a  force  as  would  enable  him  to  become  monarch  of  this  country.  That 
itj  could  be  divided  up  into  seven  divisions,  giving  each  to  a  different  nationality.  He  was 
ijot  an  ignorant  man.  He  was  not  like  an  Indian  wlio  never  read  a  newspaper,  and 
new  nothing  of  the  country  around  him.      He  had  travelled,  he  had  been  in  Ottawa,  he 

9 


]-'w 


.f^ 


l»a(l  been  in  the  United  States,  and  lie  knew  nil  about  tlie  power  of  Britain  and  tlie 
Dominion.  And  for  him  to  imagine  that  he  uould  oonie  here  and  raise  a  few  Half- 
breeds  in  the  Sasketchewan  and  keep  up  a  suijces.sful  warfare,  and  divide  the  country 
into  seven  divisions  and  with  ditterent  nationalities,  was  certainly  not  a  thing  that  a 
nian,'with  an  ordinary  understanding,  would  ever  think  he  fould  succeed  in. 

Q.  So  that  you  think  at  that  time  he  was  certainly  insane  and  of  unsound  mind  ?-^ 
A.   AssumingTtfe  stateuie|nt  made...  I  think  so.  _  f 

;Q.  To  be  true.?-- A.  Yes.  "  '  ' 

<~Q.  •  You  take  into  consideration  of  course  in  this  opiiuon,  all  the  evidence  giviMi  as 
■  well  by  the  doctors  as  by  the  other  witnesses? — A.  Yes,  1  assume  of  course  as  J  said 
Ijefore  that  not  only  the  evidence  given  is  correct,  Jjut  tliat  he  was  nut  a  deceiver.  J  migiit 
say  if  the  court  will  allow  nie,  that  when  I  coine  to  cases  of  this  kni4_L;im  not  siib- 
j)<i'-nie<l  for  one  side  more  than  another,  I  am  here  only  subpa-na-d  to  give  a  sortLof 
medical  opiiiion,  and  therefore  I  stand  in  that  capacity. 

-Mr.  Justice  Richardson.      That  is  well  understood,  Dr  Clarke. 


]5y  Mr.  Oslek.  '  r^ 

Q.  Tiieii,  Doctor,  he  would  kjiow  the  natiin-  and  quality  of  the  act  that  lie  was  com- 
mitting ? —A.  f{e  would  know  the  nature  and  (lUality  of  the  act  he  was  conniiitting, 
subject  to  his  delusions,  assuming  them  to  be  such. 

Q.  He  would  know  the  nature  anil  cpiality  of  tlie  act  he  was  connnittiim  and  he 
■would   know  if  it  was  wiong  ?-    A.    ]f  it  was  wrong  based  upon  Ills  delusion,  yes. 

Q.  And  all  tlie  facts  are  (juite  comjiatible  with  a  skilful  shamiiiing  by  the  malinger' 
ing? — A.  Y^es,  I  think  so,  I  think  that  no  one,  at  least  I  say  for  myself  of  course,  that  in 
a  cursory  exandnation  of  a  man  of  this  kind  who  has  a  good  deal  of  cunning,  w  InJ  is 
educated,  that  it  is  imi)<>ssible  for  any  man  to  state  on  three  examinatioi*i>vhether  he  is  a 
deceiver  or  not.  I  reijuire  to  Jiave  that  man  under  my  supervision  for  month.s,  to  watch 
him  daj^- by  day  before  I  could  say  whether  he  is  a  sham  or  not. 

Q.   Months  under  your  supervision  to  say  whether  he  is  a  sham  or  not  / — A.   Y'es. 

<^.  And  really  the  only  grounds  upon  which  you  would  form  an  ojiinion  as  toliis 
insanity  is  tiie  commission  of  the  crime? — A.  No,  not  the  cominission  of  the  crime.  J  forjn 
an  opinion  of  iiis  insanity  from  the  statements  made  by  the  witnesses,  both  anterior  to 
the  crime  and  since  that  time.  Y 

Q.  But  you  told  the(  court  and  jury  just  now  that  wliat  struck  you  wjls  the  insaiije 
idea  of  seeking  to  take  possession  of  the  country  and  divide  it  into  j)ro\  inces  ?— A.  Yds 
that  is  one  idea. 

Q.   That  gave  you  the  greatest  idea  of  his  in.sanity? — A.   <  )ne,  and  then  tlie  oth^-r 

'  oiie  was  he  was  a  Roman  Catholic  and  among  Roman  Catholic  peojile,  among  peojJle 

attached  to  their  priests,  and  he  went  among  that  people  endeavouring  to  conciliate  thelii 

as  he  supposed  in  order  to  get  them  educated   up  in  any  schemes  he  had  in   \  iew.      And 

yet  he  goes~lo  work  and  says  at  once,  "  I  want  to  dei)Ose  the  Pope  ".  j 

Q  But  did  you  notice^also  this,  that  he  gets  the  people  to  follow  him  ? — A.  Soiiie 
of  them  do         •  I      '  f 


Q.  Yes,  but  he  got  the  peoj: 
him  on  another  basis.  n 


iji^'eHo   f 


follow  him  with  their   guns  1- 


t 


A.  They  followed 

Q.  Tliey  elected  him  Prophet  ? — A.l-Yes,  and  he  told  me  this  morning  he  was  a  ]  'ro~ 
phet  and  he  knew. the  jury  would  acquit  hiira  because  he  knew  what  was  coming  bef  ire- 
hand. 

Q.  Then,  don't  you  think  that  this  is  perfectly  consistent' with  sucli  leading  spi 
as  Joseph  Smith  and  Brigham  Young  1 — A.  No,  it  is  not. 


its 


131 

y.   \ot  consistent  ? — A.   No,  and  I  will  tell  you  the  i«-ason  whv. 

Q.  \V»'ll  I  don't  want  the  reason  beyond  your  opinion  ?  A  Well,  it  is  not  con- 
sistent. 

Q.    It  is  not  consistent  however  with  fraud  ! — A.   Consistent  with  fraud  ! Yes, 

anythini;  is  consistent  with  fraud'that  is  not  discovered. 

Q.   You  cannot  say  that  it  is  not  fraud  ? — A.   Xo  1  cannot 

Q.  And  there  is  nothing  here  to  show  you  in  the  state  of  his  intellect  that  he  was 
not  alili!  to  distinguish  between  right  and  wrong  and  know  the  (|Uality  of  the  act  which 
he'was  connuitting  '  A.  Xo,  1  say  that  I  think  that  he  knows  what  right  is  from  wrong 
and  know  the  ijuality  of  tile  act  he  was  connnitting,  subject  to  liis  (hlusious,  but  uiin(l 
you,  1  want  to  add  to  that,  that  many  of  the  insane  know  right  from  wrong. 

.  (,).  And  you  know  I)r.  \ery  well,  that  there  is  a  class  of  insanity  that  is  held  re.s- 
jionsilile  to  the  law  ,'  -A.  You  know  1  am  not  allowed  tosav  anvtiiing  about  resiMHisibilit  v 
legally.      .  ",     ' 

<^.  You  know  that  there  is  conflict  between  the  courts  and  the  doctors  '. — A.  I 
know  there  is. 

Q.  And  you  know  that  the  <loct'ors  have  an  idea  that  all  mental  diseases  sh<iuld  be 
iiciiuilted  of  criuH-  ?  -A.  Xo  they  dont  all.  Kor  instance  Maudsley  ha-,  written  a  small 
book  on  the  resiionsil>ilities  of  tlie  insane.       He  is  a  most  Jiromiuent  man  in  Knulaud 

Q.  He  brings'  in,  ami  the  doctors  have  a  tendency  to  bring  in  as  irresponsible  a  verv 
much  larger  class  than  the  courts  and  lawyers  ? — A.  1  think  not,  1  thinV  of  late  yeare 
such  men  as  .Maudsley,  lluchnell  and  Schucli,  itc,  and  some  of  the.se  recent  invest igaton> 
lean  to  the  idea  that  in.sanity  jifr  »-  does  not  absolve  from  resjionsibilitv.  vou  have  to 
take  t«ch  ca.se  on  its  own  merits. 

().  There  is  a  large  class  of  insane  i)eojile  or  cranks  ? — A  Xo,  you  cannot  say, 
or  cranks,  becaus''  a  cr  ink  is  a  ditlereut  man  altogether.  A  crunk  is  a  man  who  is  nor- 
mally a  peculiar  inan  from  his  birth  upwards.  An  insane  nwm  is  a  man  that  has  lie- 
come  .so  out  of  usual  conduct,  fron\  disease. 

(^  I  did  not  bracket  them  together,  I  put  tliem  in  the  alternativ  e  ? — A.  You  said 
"or  cranks,"  I  thought  you  meant  l.flnatic  equal  crank. 

(i  I  put  them  as  coming  to  each  other's  bonier  line  ? — A.  1  tliought  vou  had 
au  eijuation. 

(^.  It  is  .so  that  a  large  nundier,  then  I  should  say,  of  insane  persons  ought  to  Ik-  res- 
ponsible to  the  law  ! — A.    There  are  some  that  are. 

(^».  For  they  know  right  from  wrong  and  know  the  nature  and  quality  of  the  act 
they  perform  ] — A.  When  I  speak  about  responsability  it  is  said  the  court  should  decide. 

Q.  That  is  when  you  are  e.xamined  in  chief  but  on  cross-examination  we  have  a 
little  more  liberty  ? — A.   ]  see. 

<J.  You  have  been  ivn  expert  witness  in  criminal  cases  ? — A.  Yes. 

<^.  How  fre(|uently  ? — A.  Well  I  don't  know,  j^erhaps  9  of  10  times,  perhaiis  mtire. 
I  don't  reniendier  exactly  the  number. 


Re-exaniiiied  by  .Mk.  KiTZP.\TRiCK. 

(^».  You  said  a  monuMit  ago  that  the  conduct  of  this  man  might  be  consistent  with 
the  conduct  for  instance  of  such  men  as  Smith  and  Young,  and  you  were  alniut  to  make 
distinction  between  tiie  two  and  you  were  stopped  ? — A.  (>hl  Smith  and  Young  were  reli- 
gious iyid  en?housiasts,  they  carriwl  out  consistently  their  system.  If  you  read  Urighani 
Young's  bible  or  if  you  read  ilahomet's  Koran  if  you  like,  oi-  if  you  read  any  of  those 
books  issued  by  those  men  who  are  religious  enthousiasts  you  will    find  that  consistently 


V/ 


132 


licieiit  consistency  tlnougliout  to  show  you  tlmt  these  men  weie  sound  in  mind 
nature  provided  them  with  sound  mind.   That  is  the  ditt'erence. 


with  common  sense  tliey  haye  tact  and  disc-nation  to  cany  on  successfully  till  the  end  of. 
their   lives    without  intermission,   a  successful    crusade  of    this  kind,  and    their   hooks 
contain  suHic 
as  much  as  : 

Q.  Do  you  lind  anything  of  that  kind  in  the  present  case  ?— V.  No,  I  don't  think 
he  would  make  a  very  good.lJrighani  Young,  or  El  Mahdi. 

Q.  You  say  that  he  is  quite  capable  of  distinguishing  rigjjit  f rom  wrong  suliject  to  his 
delusions  ? — A.   [Subject  his  particular  delusion,  yes. 

ilH.  Lemieux. — This  closes  our  defence,  your  Honor. 

Mr.  Robissos. — We  liave  some  witnesses  in  rebuttal. 


De.  JameN'S  WALLAfK,  sworn,  examined   byMr Osier.  ' 

Q.  Dr.  What  is  youl"  position  ? — A.  I  am  medical  superintendent  of  the  asylum  for 
the  insane  at  Hamilton,  Oiitaiio. 

Q.  An  institution  having  how  many  patients  on  the  average  ? — A.  Sonicwliere  over 
600. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  been  making  a  branch,  a  specialty  of  the  insane,  of  the  study 
of  tlie  insane  ! — A.  1  have  been  in  charge  of  that  asylum  nearly  9  years,  but  I  have  beea 
studying  insanity  for  a  few  years  more  than  that. 

Q.  For  more  than  9  y^ars  ?— A.   Yes. 

Q.   Aiid  you  see  every  variety  of  it,  I  supjiose  1 — A.    .Ml  shades  and  \  arieties. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  devote  yourself  to  the  medical  braul-h  of  it  ? — A.   Kntirdy. 

Q.  You  have  nothing  to  do  with  keeping  the  hotel  or  boarding  house  ?-  -.\.  Well,  I 
have  the  general  superintendence  of  the  house,  but  i  devote  nearly  all  my  time  to  tin* 
medical  department  of  the  asylum. 

.(^.    Jiave  you  been  listeiiing  to  the  evidence  in  this  case  ? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  examinqtl  or  had- an  opportunity  of  seeing  the  prisoner?  A.  J  saw 
him'for  about  half-an  houri  that  is  alone,  not  in  couit. 

Q.   And  you  have  been  heie  during  tlie ? — A.   During  the  sitting  of  the 

court. 

Q.  Have  you  formed  an  ojiinion  of  his  mental  responsibility,  of  his  sanity  or 
insanity  ? — A.    I  liave,  so  far  as  my  time  and  opportunities  enabled  me  to  do  so. 

Q.  What  is  your  opinion? — ,A.  I  have  not  discovered  any  insanity  al>out  him,  no 
indication  of  insanity. 

Q.  What  would  you  say  then  in  view  of  the  evidence  and  your  examination  ;  is  he  of 
sound  mind  or  is  he.not?^A.   1  think  he  is  of  sound  mind  ' 

Q.   And  capable  of  distinguishing  right  from  wrong? — A.   I  think  so. 

■  Q.  And  know  the  nature  and  ijuality  of  any  act  which  he  would  conniiit?^A.  Very 
acutely.  - 

Cross-examined  by  Mb.  Bitzpatrick. 

Q.   You  have  no  doubt  whatever  in  your  mind,  from  the  examination  you  have  ma 
of  this  man  during  half  an  hour  and  from  the  evidence  which  you  heard  here,  thai  he 
of  perfectly  sound  mind  ? — A.  Well,  I  should  qualify,  that  is  I  should  qualify  U)y  answer  i 
that  question.     I  have  had  only  a  lipiited  examination  of  him  and  in  any  case  of  obscarJ 


133  •  ' 

iiif  nlul  (list-ase,  it  sometimes  takes  a  very  long  time  l)efore  one  can  make  up  their  mind, but 
t'loiii  »  hat  I  liax  e  seen  of  liim  I  say  that  I  liave  discovered  no  symptoms  of  iusanity. 

Q.  -So  tliat  wliat  you  now  say,  Doctor,  is  purely  and  simply  this,  not  that  he  is  not 
insane,  but  that  you  liave  not  been  able  to  discover  any  symptoms  of  iusanitv  ? — A.  That 
is  what  I  say,  I  say  tliat  I  have  not  discovered  it.  It  would  be  presumption  for  me  to 
say  tiuit  he  is  not  insane  from  the  opportunities  that  I  have  had,  but  at  the  same  time 
my  opinion  is  pretty  fairly  tixed  in  my  mind,  that  he  is  not  insane. 

Q.  You  are  aware  that  a  <,'reat  many  cases  e.xist  in  which  men  are  found  to  he 
perfectly  insane,  without  its  beinj;  posMiliie  todiscover  any  trace  of  iiisanity? — A.  Oh!  sir, 
1  liavc  liad  ])atii-nts  in  my  Asjlum  for  weeks  sometimes  before  I  found  anv  svmptoms  of 
insanity. 

Q.  You  are  aware  also,  are  you  not,  that  there  have  been  cases  in  England  in  which 
men  were  examined  for  a  wliole  day  and  cross-examined  by  such  men  as  Erskine  for 
instance,  perfectly  insane,  and  durintr  thi^wholeday  it  was  impossible  for  Erskine  tii  discover 
that  thi^  man  was  insane  ? — .\.  Yes,  I  dare  say  such  cases  may  exist,  1  am  ijuite 
certain  such  cases  ha\  e  existed. 

Q.    Y'ou  are  ipiite  certain  such  cases  are  in  existence? — A.   Y^es. 

Q  ThcretVue  you  are  obliged  to  say  that  all  that  yf>u  have  discovered  in  this  case  or 
all    that  you  are  now  in  a  position  to  say    is  that  you  liave  not  discovered  any  traces   of 

;'  isanity  ] — A.  That  is  all  my  conscience  will  allow  to  say. 
Q.   Y^ou  have  lieard  of  that  parti(nilar  form  of  mental  disea.se  known  as  niaualomania 
n.bably  .'— A.    ^  es. 

l^.   Would  yi>u   tell  me  what  are  the  symptoms  which  are  the  characteristic  of  this 
disease  ?    -A.   That  is  a  simiilc  i-omplication.      That  is  a  term  which  is  scarcelr  f\er  usetl 
.and  I  tliink  it  is  only  used   by  one  writer,   I  don't   remember  any  other  who  uses  it  in 
^  the  Kiii^lish  langua,i;e  and  he  simply  introduces  it  and  says.  ... 

()    l>ut  iiiic  writer  uses  that  name? — A.  Only  one  that  I  can  think  of  at  tiu- present 
time  in  the  V     dish  lanicuagc  and  he  .says  that  it  is  a  condition  in  which  the  jiatieiit   has 
I'.elusions,   yra.     iose  di;lusion.s,   delusions  of  greatness  and   most  commonly  complicated 
1*^  vith  that  form  (>'  insanity  called  par-ilytic  insanity  or  gentle  paralysis. 

c  (^1    You  are  aware  that  this  particular  form  of  insanity  is  characterised  anion;;  other 

things  bv  extreme  irritaliility  on  tlie  part  of  the  patient  ? — A.  Not  magalomania.  maga- 
Icihiaiiia  simply  applies  to  grandiose  ideas.  It  can  have  no  other  detinition  than  that, 
and  these  detinitions  allow  me  to  explain,  are  delusions,'  they  are  delusions  such  as  a 
jier.son  holding  and  believing  himself  to  be  a  king  fir  possessed  of  imiu^ise  wealth,  and 
that  all  the  world  is  at  his  feet.  '  These  are  the  kind  of  delusions  thaf~^re  meant  by 
magalomania  as  I  understand  them,  and  it  has  not  any  other  meaning  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  The  delusions  are  that  he  is  rich  ! — A.   Y'es. 

i).  And  powerful  ? — A.   Y'es. 

(J.  A  great  general  ] — A.  Y'es. 

(J.  .V  great  minister? — A.   He  may  be  a  great  anything,  and  everything. 

(,»  A  great  projihet  ? — A.   Y''es. 

(}  Or  dixiiielv  inspired,  or  that  he  is  a  poet  or  a  musician,  in  fact  that  he  is  an 
egotist  and  selli.-.li  man? — A.  Yes. 

»J  l!ut  you  are  cpiite  sure  that  thtrTdiaracleristic  of  irritability  i*  not  one  of  the 
ciiaracteristics  of  this  malady  ? — A.   It  is  not  a  malady,  it  is  merely  a  symptom. 

ij.  That  is  a  form  of  mental  disease! — A.  It  is  not  a  uieutal  disease,  it  is  ouly  a^ 
svmpiom  of  mental  disease. 


i:u 


Q     Vou  have  heard  of  a  Wook  written  and  published  l>y  J^agoust,  a  Fiencli  writer? 
.    — A.    1  have  heard  of  it  but  ]  have  never  read  it. 

Q.  He  is  an  author  of  repute,  is  lie  not  ? — A-.  I  think  so,  but  I  don't  read  much 
Freneli. 

Q.  Would  you  allow  ine  to  read  to  you  what  this  author  says.  Talkiiif,'  of  niafjalo- 
'  mania,  lie  says  :  "AVliat  chamc-terises  tiiis  particular  form  of  mental  alienation  is  exag- 
geration of  the  sentiment  of  jier.sonality  "  ;  expansive  j«issions,  he  says,  is  one  of  the 
coii.se<iuences  of  it.  He  says,  niononiaiiiacs  aie  hap])y,  .satisfied  with  themselves,  and 
si)eak  without  a  limit  of  their  own  personality.  Now  here  is  tlie  part  1  s|)eak  to  you 
about,  the  individual  issusce|)tible,  iriitabie,  he  is  seizeil  with  sudden  fuiy  when  he  is  at 
anytime  oppo-sed  in  his  idea...? — A.  Well  isn't  that  speakini;- of  j^entle  paralysis,  the 
insanity  of  gentle  paralysis. 

'Q.  It  is  luider  the  head  of  inagaloniaiiia,  with  tlie  plates  showing  the  dift'erent  elia- 
i"acters  ? — A.  I  understand  '  that,  but  there  are  a  va.stly  large  number  ofnianias,  jmer- 
peroniania  and  all  that  sort  of  thing. 

Q.   Would  you  kcej)  to  inagaloniaiiia,  that  is  what  we  now  refer  to,  that   is  what  the 
book  refers  to  and  what  ]  refer  to  ?-  A.   I  stated  that  magalomania  was  one  of  the  com- 
plications or  .syiiii)toms  of  jiaialytic  insanity,  and  that  that  you  reail,  of  course  is  one  of 
'  the  accompaniments  of  the  jiaralytic  insanity  too,  irritability  and  all  that  you  stated,  they 
are  always  found  in  connection  with  each  other. 

Q.  And  you  now  say  that  irritabilit)'  is  one  of  the  characteristics  of  magalomania  ? 
— A.  No,  I  don  t  ;  iiiagaloniania,  as  far  as  I  understand  it,  is  one  of  the  cumplications  qtf 
the  paralytic  insanity  and  the  irritability  is  also  another  symptom  of  jiaraJytic   insaiiit}'\ 

Q.  We  will  just  narrow  the  facts  down  to  exactly  what  we  have  in  evidence,  that 
extreme  iiritaliility  is  one  of  the  characteristics  of  this  magalomania  ?-  A.   Siivply .  .  .  . 

.Q.   And  the  bf)oks  sIkiw.s,  that  I  now  hold  in  my  hand,  that   it  is  rme  of  the  charac- 
.terisfics  ? — .^.   I  think  we  (|lo  not  undeistand  each  other. 

.    Q.    ]   aiii  waiting  for  ijight  ? — A.   I   have  stated  that   magalomania   is   a   sym)itom 
,  commonly  found  in   ])aralytii-  in.sanity,  irritiibility  and  those  (it her  symiitoms   are   ali: 
symptOkis  found  in  the  same  disease.  w 

Q.  So  that  now,  irritability  being  one  of  the  eliaraeteristics  of  paralytic  insaiiit)' and 
magalomania  being  one  of  the  branches  of  paralytic  insanity,  you  now  say  irritability  is 
one  of  the  characteristics  of  magalomania  ? — A.  Oh  I  IJut  we  lind  magalomania  in  other 
diseases  and  we  tind  magalomania  is  simply  mania. 

Q.  But  ill  magalomania  iiritaliility  is  laid  down  by  the  book  as  one  of  "the  charac- 
teristics at  all  events  ? — Al   Yes. 

Q.  Wo  that  now,  Doctor,  you  are  of  opinion  that  the  idea  of  grandeur  and  of  power  is 
not  to  be  fouml  anywhere,  except  in  cases  of  paialytic  imjiiTfity  ? — A  <)!  yes,  we  hnd  it 
in  simple  mania.  We  lind  it  in  sim])le  mania,  butUu^e  are  tixed  delusions  and  jiersous 
wlio  liolfl  them  say  tiicy  believe  themselves  foToK  kings  or  ijueens,  or  great  leaders, 
or  wealthy  people.  They  may  lie  great  in  any  Hiipg,  and  great  in  ever.y  thing  and  they 
actually  believe  this  and  they  act  upon  their  ^lelief,  constantly  act  upon  their  belief. 

Q.  Did  I  undei-stand  you  to  say,  Doctor,  that  the  idea  of  grandeur  is  exclusively  a 
symptom  of  paralytic  insanity,  that  that  is  not  to  l^emet  in  other  cases  ? — A.  No,  I  have 
just  stated  now  that  you  will  tind  delusions.  i,  ^ 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  in  cases  of  magalomania  one  of  tlie  characteristics  of  maga- 
lomania, one  of  the  very  essential  characteristics  of  |nagalomaiiia  istliat  the  individual  wlio 
suffers  from  that  particular  form  of  meutiil  disease  is  able  in  a  very  large  measure  to  hide 
the  diseitse  from  any  person  who  endeavours  to  tind  it  out? — A.  Well,  insane  persons  are 
able  as  I  said  before  to  conceal  their  delusions,,  sometimes  for  a  length  of  time,  but  a  per- 


f 


^- 


i 


135 


soil  surtieriiig  from   inagaloinania  does  not  attempt  to  do  it,  lie  is  too  proud  to  expose  his 
delusions 

Q.  So  tliat  one  of  the  cliaracteristics  of  it  is  pride  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  a  case  in  which  a  man,  for  instance,  would  lie  under  the  insane  delu- 
sion that  lie  was  destined  to  till  a  j^reat  mission,  that  he  was  in  a  jiosition  to  take  posses- 
sion of  a  jrreat  country  such  as  this  one  is,  would  not  that  man  lie  iji  a  [Kisition  to  take 
sueli  means  as  woultl  lie  necessary  to  arrive  at  his  ends  and  to  take  thuse  means  with  a 
f^reat  amimnt  of  shrewdness  and  precaution  i — A.  That  is  ([uite  inconsistent  with  mv  idea 
iif  ni;i.i;Mliiiiiani:(.  As  1  said  liefore,  my  idea  of  majjalimiauia  is,  as  defined  liv  Cl(aKton,  for 
instaiiie,  that  that  man  is  already  in  possession  of  all  these  things  and  he  does  not  want 
any  more.  ...^ 

(^>  So  that  your  i(lea  is  l)r  that  a  man  that  is  sutt'eriiii;  from  this  particular  disease 
is  not  in  position  and  it  is  utterly  impossilile  for  him  to  take  any  steps  to  arrive  at  the 
conclusion  whidi  he  pretends  he  ought  to  arrive  at  ? — A.  O  yes  I  (^  I  he  does  not  require 
any  plans  at  all,  every  thing  Hows  into  him,  he  is  the  greatest  man  in  the  world  and 
every  thing  is  suliservient  to  him,  wealth  comes  to  him  he  (loes  not  want  and  he  can 
commund  evt-ry  liody  and  they  will  oliey  him. 

<^).  So  that  he  does  not  make  any  calculations  at  all  and  does  nut  adopt  any  means 
at  all  to  arrive  at  his  ends  ? — A.   Not  at  all. 

t^.  It  is  one  of  the  characteristics  of  the  malady  that  he  is  inialde  to  do  that  .' — A. 
Not  unalile, liecause  he  does  not  have  todo  it,  he  is  so  .self-possessed  and  so  self-contented. 

/  i).  Now  I>r,  will  you  just  read  this  little  hook  airaiii  on  that  suhject,  (it  is  so  miu-h 
tin-  more  d.myerous  that  he  still  retains  the  necessary  faculty  to  lie  ahle  to  make  calcula- 
tjiAns  that  are  necessary  to  arri\e  at  his  ends  ,'  ) — A,    Hut  is  that  speaking  of  maualoma- 

T'  \    .. 

.,        (}.    I  nder  tile   chajiter  and   titii^  '•  .Magalomanja  •    — .\.    \\  ell,  would   you  allow    to 
'  ijiuite  from  (,'louston,  he  is  speaking  of  niental  dcpre>jsion  and  lie  says  there  are  few  cases 
'  of  depressed   feeling  with  exalted  intellectual   condition.   Many  persons  exaggerate  their 
L  former  notions  of    wealth  and  position   liy    way   of  contrast   with  their   present   niiserv. 
I  had  a  \vomaii    in  excited  melancholy  groaning  all  the  time  and  then  considered  herself, 
a  (|iiecn   and    another   a    king,  and   of   immense  wealth.      Some    cases  are  of   the  nature 
fif  what  the  French  call  magaloniania,  that  is,  expansive  grandiose  exalted  state  of  mind, 
whicu  as  a  mental  symptom,  is  liest  seen  in  gentle  paralysis  coupled  with  ideas  of  perse- 
cution, and  with  depressed  feelings  especially  at  times. 

^i.  Do  you  think  there  is  anything  in  what  you  have  read  there  that  is  inconsistent 
with  what  I  have  read  to  you,  that  contradicts  that  ? — A  Well,  there  is  •nothing  that 
contradicts  it,  lait  1  .say  that  magalomania  is  

tj.  That  is  sim|ily  an  interpretation  of  what  this  liook  has  said  here  ! — A.  Well,  we 
are  not  mmv  far  apart  ;  we  ai-e  only  apart  this  far,  that  you  wish  to  contend  for  magalo- 
niania as  a  disease,  while  I  contend  that  it  is  only  a  symptom. 

(^l.    We  are  not  talking  ahout  symptfims  of  diseases  at  all.      1  ask   you.  was  that  one' 
of  the  svm|itoMis  of  magaioimnia  and  you  said  it  did   not   exist   in  a   case,  and   the  l.ook 
says  that  it  does  i     A.   You  are  not  doing  me  justice. 

(y  I  don't  mean  to  do  you  an  injustice,  1  tlon't  mean  to  adopt  any  liullyiniC 
proces.s,  it  is  not  my  haliit,  and  I  tlon  t  do  it.  I  don't  luetend  to  set  my  knowK'ilue  against 
yours  in  a  matter  of  this  kimj,  you  are  free  to  explain  it.  This  magaloniania  was  called 
formerlv  intellectual  monomania,  was  it  not? — A.  Yes  it  is  a  monomania. 

(}.    It  came  under  that  general  class  of  cases  formerly  ? — A.   Y'es. 

t^.  Now,  one  of  the  symptoms  of  that  malady — you  have  heard  of  a  hook  written 
hy  Ducelle  ]  —A.  No,  I  never  heard  of  that. 


Q.    You  don't   know  It-  araiiil   ntir^-ffhrWii-  French  iiutlioi' ? — A.   Xo,  I  don't  know 
■    the  liook.  , 

<^  You  iie\er  liearil  of  ii  Ijookof  tlnit  kind;  at  al]  fvfiit.s,  1  rannot  Jiut  tlie 
autlioiitv  i]i  fvi<ltMK('.  as  you  don't  kn'ow  it.  l)Ut  I  nii.aht  ask  you,  for  instance,  wlietlier 
or  not  in  that  jiirticuhir  form  of  disease  wliich  I  liave  sjioken  to  you  aliout,  tliat  is, 
intellectual  njon.oniania,  tlint  insane  |persons  liplieve  they  are  in  constant  intercourse  \\  itli 
<Jod.  and  they  helieve  then»selvi-s  to  lie  insjiired,  and  lielieve  tlienisidves  to  lie  jirojihets, 
and  their  hallucinations  art^such  that  tliey  sU]>]iose  tiiey  aie  in  i-onstant  intercoi'irse  with 
u  Suj)renie  ISeiiiin  ? — A.   Yi'  1  have  known  patients  of  tlmt  kind. 

*i     \l  IV  ■  you  ever  he.ird  of (<iivin;r  the  nanit'"of  anotlier  Krencii   auijior)  ? — A. 

1  <loii  t  want  t  1  ileal- of  an\|  Fremli  authors,  I  never  read  them. 

*/    You  never  got  that  far  >. — A    No. 

<^  Persons  siirt'eriiiy;  from  delusions  of  grandeur  ajv  perfectly  harmless  as  a  rule, 
are  they  not  ^  —A.  Xo,  ».s  if  rule,  they  are  not,  not  always,  they  sometimes  are  and  some- 
times, they  iire  not.  | 

*i  In  crisesliii  w)iich  tliey  wouhl  lie  hiuiiile.ss,  would  you  ]put  two  of  these  jieople  in 
tlie  .same  ward?-  A.  I  n«ver  ]nit  two  to^etiier  anywhere,  I  ne\  er  jmt  two  lunatics 
togetiier  .iiivnheiv.'  Tliey  are  alway.s'kept  either  one,  or  more  than  two. 

<^.    Would  you  |iut  mole  than  two  together  .'-  A.   Y'es. 

<^.  -Without  any  imjiro|)iiety  whatexer  .' — A.  Yes,-4)ur  luiildin;.'s  are  put  u|i  witli'a 
view  to  that 

>i.    I  don  t  know  if  yoij  uiideistand  my  i|Ue.stion.    I  suppose  se\eral  persons  sufl'eriiig 


fniiii  ilie  >jiiiie.,,i\\o  kini;s, 
tOitether  in  tli.e  .-.ame  waril 

<i     You  would  not  see 
i.j  j)nttiiii,'  them  together.  1  think  not. 

iJv    .Mli.    I  ISl.l.l! 


md  a  (jueen-or  two   (|Uei'n.s  you  would   put  all  tlie.se  jiersons 
A.    They  niiuht  be  and  they  niijiht  not 

any  olijection   to  that  .' — A.I  There  wouhl   he  no  iniproprief^' 


<^.'  iSo  that  jwheii  a  pel 
>Slie  usually  <iiei|  a.  ijueen. 

<i.   In  hii?r  <)\vn  idea  : 

</.  And  sli^  is  a  ijueet 


] 

of  the  disease  fixed  and  constant  .'I 


<^.    Where  the  disease  (^.\i^ts,  is  the  idea  the  lesult   ( 
V     It  i>  a  result  of  the  disease. 

<^     IJut  is  it  fixed  or  intermittent  '. — A.    In  those  ca.ses  they  are  ti.xed. 

.son  has  taken  lierself  for  a  (jueen,  .slie  remains  a  (jueeii  ? — A. 


<i    N'ot  ijonietinies  a  ijUeeii  and  sometimes  otherwise  .' — A.   Xo. 


^A.   I'es. 
to  i-vel-v  hodv  to  whom  she  talks  .' — .\.    Yes. 


Dk.  .JiKK.s  swurn,  examined  Iwy  Mt.  Kohi 


Q.    You  ariS  :it  present 
I  am  the  senior  sur^teoii  of 


the  meiiical  otlicer  attached  to  the  mounted  jiolice  force  ? — A. 
the  mounted  police. 

<^.    An.l  hS»-  lon«  hav?  you!)een  in  medical  practice  ? — .\.  Tliirty-H\e  years. 

your  attention  to  insanity  at  all  siiecially,  or  not  ? — -A,.  Never 
specially,  there  are  cas.-s  ol'  coiM-se  wliich  occasionally  will  come  under  theaiotice  of  every 
y  general  practitionei-.  lait  ad  a  special  .study  I  have  never  done  so. 

<^.    Kvery  meilic-al  practitionei-.  I  suppose,  has  his  attention  more  or  less  directed  to 
it  !  — .\.    <  (ci-asii>ii  illy  I  have  lieen  called  upon  to  certitiy  in  cases  of  insanity. 


ll 


137 

Q.  You  aifs  also  .sur;;eoii  to  the  jail  here  1  aiii  told  i — A.  At  i>r»-seiit  until  a  jail  has 
been  erected  ill  the  North- West  Territories,  the  j,'iiui-(l  room  at  head  ijuarters  at  Ke;,'iiia 
constitutes  the  jail. 

Q.  In  that  ca|iacity  insane  persons  wnuld  iia:>s  under  vuur  haniK,  anv  jierson  sup 
posed  to  lie  insane  ? — A.  Yes,  I  reineinlpfr  duiiiij.'  the  last  tew  years  aMiundn'r  ot  iiersons 
of  unsound  mind  have  l>eeii  sent  there  as  a  place  ot'  continement. 

Q.  And  in  this  way  tliey  have  come  under  your  oKservatioii  .'  .\.  Thev  lia\e  come 
under  my  oliservation  tor  the  time. 

Q.    You  know  the  jjrisoner,  I  lielie\f.' — A.   Yes.  .       . 

Q.  How  li)iij{  haxe  you  known  him  .'  —A.  1  don't  leiiicuili.  r  the  exact  date  he  was 
liroil;,'iit  to  l{e^'illa,  hut   [  tliiiik  it  must  have  lieen  Ketweeii  tlie  L'Uth  ami  I'lth  of  May. 

Q.  lint  whatever  it  was,  lietweeu  tile  L'Otli  aiid  "Jtth  .'  .\.  .\lJout  that  time,  lam 
not  sure. 

(}.  Since  that  time  how  often  have  you  seen  liijn  .0— .\.  I  haxcseen  him  almost 
every  day.  There  have  heen  (Uie  or  two  or  |>erhaps  three  (lays  that  I  ha\e  missed  seinir 
him.  o«  lug  to  pressure  of  other  hu^incNV.  uther  work  at  that  time.  Km  1  have  seen  him 
uniforndy  every  day.  -         < 

(^.   As  a  rule.  y(ju  have  si-en  him  eveiv  d  iv.  altliouirh  Vou  have  missed  two  ur  three 


or 


J(^.   As  a  rule.  y(ju  have  si-en  liim  eveiv  d  ly. 
our  ilays  duriiiL;  that  time  .' — A.    \  I's. 


Q  Tiicn  you  had  an  opportunity.  I  suppose,  of  olisciviui;  his  iii.utal  condition? — 
A  .1  would  speak  to  him  on  every  occasioi*!  in  passini;  him,  ami  he  has  generally  acipiainted 
luJ  witli  what  he  conceived  to  lie  his  wants  and  his  nci'i'ssities.  And  I  wouhl  examine 
into  the  condition  of  iiis  physical  and  general -health,  and  ascertain  lio>v  his  xliet  was 
aji-eeing  with  him  and  things  of  tliat  kind,  such  as  come  under  my  special  duty.  .Vnd 
oc|-asionally  he  would  speak  to  me  <in  other  matters,  occasionally  lie  wnuld  delav  mi'  ami 
sjBeak  to  me  on  other  suhjects. 

*(,).  ThiMi  have  you  formed  an  opinion  as  to  hi,  mental  --titi-  .'  1  am  >peaking  now  of 
jis  insanity,  sanity  or  insanity  .' — .V  1  have  never  .seen'  anything  durin-  my  intercourse 
•  ith  -Miv  lliel,  to  leave  an  impression  on  my  mind  that  he  was  insane. 

r       Q.   Then  as  1  undei-stand,  you  lielievj-  liim  to  I'l.   sauc  .'     .V.  I  Kelievc  him  to  he  sane, 
I      far  as  mv  knowle:l;;e  of  such  matter  goes.    I   have  seen  notjiiiii;  to  iiidui-eme  to  lielieve 


lervvise 


(j.    1  suppo.se  you  have  had  your  attention  dirccti-l  to  that  part  of  his  character  more 
ir  less,  I  nieui  to  his  moiitai  condition,  more  oi-  le,,  .'     .V    .Vo.  I  have  never  seen  auy- 
thiiiLC  to  make  me  .piestion  his  mental  c(indilion.  and   tlu  lefurc  I  have   never  led  the  con- 
sation  under  any  iii<iimstances  to  draw  oii.t  ai,y  p.i,-iMc  iii.-^auc  notion.     I  have  never 
maiie  any  eli'ort  to  do  so,  liecause  my  diKy  vva^  otherwiM-. 

i).   What  I  nie.in  is.  l)octor.  you   have  iieard.  I  sU|ipo.-e.  from   time  to  time,  rumors 
hat  there  was  an  as.vrtion  of  the  unsoundness  of  his  mind  .'-A.    I  have  heard   rumored 
hat  he  had  iieen  formerly  insane,  and  that  he  had  lieen  contined.  I  think,  in  the  lieauport 
syium,    iiiul  I  liave  lieard  it  iil.so  rumored  tiiat  it  was  the  intention  to  luing  forward  the 
]  lea  of  insanity  on  tiie  present  occasion  in  his  defence,  that  is  tiie  general  rumor. 

(^  Therefore,  [  suppose  you  have  had  this  thinir  in  your  mind,  that  is  all  :  that  jiart 
'  f  his  condition  in  your  mind  in  speaking  to. him  .'  That  is  all  that  I  mean  .' — A  \e-.  Ihavu 
Ivvays  watclied  liim  vei-y  caicful'y.  sous  to  notice  if  |iossilile  any  appc:ii;tnce  of  uiisouiul- 
e.ss  of  mind,  and  if  1  had  noticed  it.  I  would  h  ivc  placed  him  under  special  treatment  as 
ar  as  my  knowledge  eiialiled  me  to  do  or  have  :idv  iscd  further  freatmeiit  for  him.  as  I 
ave  doiie  in  other  cases. 

^ross-exainined  liy  Mr.  Fitzp.^thick. 

(You  said,  Doctor,  tiiat   you   had    not   mule  any  endeavour  to  ascerttiu.  during  the 


l' 


intercou*'se  that  you  had  witli  ^Ir.  Riei,  wlietlier  or  not  he  suti'ered  from  any  |>nrticuliir 
lueiital  disease?  Did  you  notice  any  form  of  insanity,  or  any  mental  disease,  unsoundness 
of  mind  '.  -  -A.  I  never  specially  examine<l  him  as  a  lunatic,  1  never  made  a  special  examin- 
ation of  liim  as  a  lunatic. 

Q.  You  never  made  any  special  endeavour  to  discover  wliether  or  not  he  was  suffering; 
from  any  j)aiticHlar  form  of  mental  disease? — A.  Never  any  s])ecial  endeavour,  anything 
^iH-yond  ordinary  conversation  of  the  day. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  there  are  ditierent  forms  of  insanity  which  ai-e  not  iliscoveral>le 
except  after  consideraMe  (i-ndeavours  has  heen  made  to  discover  them  .'—-A.  \  es,  it  is  so, 
un<iuestioni|^)lv.  that  you  may  converse  with  the  man  continually  and  nf)t  lie  aware  of  his 
insanity  until  you  t<^ucli  iucidentally,  or  some  other  person  touches  accidentally  ujpon  tin?' 
point  ujion  whicli  he  is  insane. 

Q.  Had  you  heea  informed  at  any  time  of  the  particular  mental  disease  fronr  wliich 
Mr.  Riel  was  sujiposed  toha\e  U-en  suftering?  —  A.  I  don't  think  lever  knew  as  much 
of  it  iis  I  havr  learned  here. 

Q.  So  that  you  never  made  any  endeavour  to...? — A.  I  nevei-  did,  that  is,  I  ni'ver 
spoke  to  him  s)iecially  with  re^'ard  to  what  he  lielieved  to  he  his  mission,  knowing  that 
many   v.ery  saile  men  might  he  so  and  yet  a  man  nnght  he  perfectly  ssiue. 

(}.  So  tliat  you  have  no  doulit  at  all.  Doctor,  from  the  evidence  that  you  heard  here 
given  liy  the  dili'eicnt  witnesses  who  were  examined,  the  conduct  of  .Mr.  Kiel  is  |»-rfectly 
cOmpatil)le  witii  a  perfectly  sound  mind  .' — A.  Well,  I  regiet  to  say  that  my  hearing.'  is 
rather  imperfect  in  tlie  court  r(jom  and  that  1  have  not  lieenalile  to  hear  as  well  as  I 
'  could  vvi.sh  the  translations  that  were  made  of  the  examinations  in  Kreinli,  hut,  .so  fai|  as 
my  understanding  has  gone  of  the  evidence  which  has  heen  given,  I  have  heard  nothhig 
that  wcjuld  satisty  me  that  he  was  of  unsound  mind,  1  have  heard  nothing  that  niislit 
not  he  accounted  for  hy  other  cau.ses,  that,  for  instance,  of  fraud  or  deception.  A  iifan 
might  really  lielievf  that  he  had  a  mission  as  many  great  men  have  helieved,  or  he  might 
only  jireteiid  for  a  purpose  that  he  had  that  hclief.  ' 

<^.  A  man  inight  also  lal>or  under  the  insane  delusion  that  he  had  a  mission? — .\l 
He  might  al.M)  lahor  under  the  insane  delusion  ;  hut  the  fact  of  his  lahoring  under  t!iii| 
insane  delusion,  woulrl  not  necessarily  imply  that- he  was  otherwise  in.sane  or  inconiptjtei  I 
either  to  perform  husiness  in  a  successful  nnmner  or  to  he  responsihle  for  his  acti'oii  f. 
That  would  U'  my  own  judgement.  '  ^  ' 

Q.  But  quimd  the  jiarticu,lar  delusion.  .  .in  so  far  as  the  particular  delusion  undc 
which  he  is  suH'ering  is  coiicernefl,  he  would  he  still  respr)nsihle  in  your  opinion.  Doctor,  sup, 
posing  for  instance  that  a  man  lahored  under  the  ilelusion  that  his  neiithhor  was  a  savag^ 
dog,  and  was  endeavouriiig  to  destroy  him  and  hite  him,  and  that  lie  killed  his  neighhor, 
he  might  he  perfectly  .sane  in  other  i-espects  ? — .\.  You  misunderstand  me,  if  you  think  J 
entertain  that  opinion.  .  i 

Q.  That  is  not  the  opinion  you  entertain  ? — .\.   Certainly  not.  | 

Q.  So  that  if  a  man  is  lahoring  under  an  insane  delusion,  the  acts  which  he  dotjs 
while  he  is  under  that  in.sane  delusior.,  i/tiodd  the  particidar  delusion,  he  his  not  respoi  - 
sihle  for  ! — .V.  If  a  man  is  clearly ...  .if  it  can  he  proved  that  a  man  is  acting  under  a  i 
insane  delusion,  then  any  act  I  should  consider  which  he  performed  under  the  delusion, 
any  act  having  special  relation  to  his  delusion,  I  should  consider  that  he  was  not  perso  i 
naly  responsihle  for,  if  it  could  he  shown  clearly  that  that  delusion  was  an  insane  on  l>, 
and  that  it  was  not  rather  a  feigned  one  for  a  purpose. 

Q.  So  that  if  it  can  lie  proven  that  a  man  is  lal)Ouring  under  an  insane  delusion, 
that  he  was  in  cfjuimuuication  with  the  Holy  (iho.st  and  was  acting  under  the  direct  inis- 
piration  of  (iod,  and  he  was  hound  to  do  a  certain  act,  and  he  did  it,  would  lie  be  respo  i- 
sihle  for  that^ict  t — A..  Views  on  suhject  of  that  kind  are  so  different  even  among  tliqUe 
who  are  confessedly  sane,  that  it  is  hardly  one  on  which  I  could  liase  an  opinion.      Thoye 


139 

are  men  wlio  ha\e  licld  \erv  reniarkalile  \ie\\s  with  respect  to  religion  and  wlio  have 
always  been  dechued  to  Ije  itisane  until  they  j^atliered  together  great  numbers  of 
followers  and  liecame  leliders  of  a  new  sect,  then  they  become  great  (iro[>hets  and 
great  men.  It  is  extrentHiy  ditiicult  to  tell  how  tar  a  delusion  of  that  kind  may  begin 
as  a  direct  attemjit  at  fraud  and  may  at  last  so  take  possession  of  a  man  s  mind  that  he 
nmy  believe  himself  divinely  inspired  1  think  that  cases  of  that  kind  could  be  pro- 
duced and  it  would  depend  very  much  ui>on  the  mental  condition  of  a  man  whether  he 
wiis  resjionsiblf  f  If  it  could  be  shown  that  he  was  clearly  insane,  he  is  clearly  irrespon- 
silile  on  that  point.     Tiiat  would  be  my  own  view. 

t^.  So  that  if  it  can  be  clearly  shown  that  he  was  laboring  under  a  delusion,  that 
he  was  divinely  inspired,  directly  from  (Jod,  you  think  he  would  not  be  resposible  for 
his  actions  ' — A.   Responsible  for  what  ! 

Q.  Kesponsible  for  his  actions  in  connection  with  the  delusion  of  course .' — A. 
"A'hat  actions  would  they  be  i  Such  actions  as  what  ? 

Q.  Such  actions  as  he  might  do  for  flie  purjiose  of  carrying  out  his  insane  delusion  .' 
— .\.  Well,  take  ilahoinet  for  instance.'  That  was  exactly  Mahomet's  belief  ;  he  believed 
and  few  belie\ed  with  him  even  of  his  own  people  that  he  was  divinely  inspired,  but  he 
acted  on  his  belief  and  he  carried  his  whole  belief  with  hiuK  He  belieij^d  and  he  carried 
it  out  at  the  pf>int  of  the  sword  ami  with  the  whole  worlil,  and  he  convinced  the  )'eople 
of  w  hat,  if  he  had  failed,  w(juld  have  been  simplv  regarded  as  a  delusion  in  his  own  mind. 

Q.  So  that  you  think  the  conduct  of  Mr.  Kiel  perfectly  compatible  with  theconduct 
for  instance  of  a  man  like  ifahomet,  or  a  man  like  Smith  oi-  a  nian  like  Young  ?-  -A.   Xo. 

I  don't  regard  ....  so  far  as  I  understand  tliem,  Mr.  Kiels  views  in  that  11;;^.  31v 
opiiliion  is  rather  in  regard  to  Mr.  Kiel,  if  you  will  allow  me  to  say  it,  as  far  ua.  I  haxe 
been  able  to  jiidire  from  liiv  own  personal  knowledge,  that  he  is  a  man-  of  great 
sh,^3wdm'ss  and  very  great  depth,  and  that  he  might  choose,  knowing  the  great  intliR'nce 
wjhfch   he   exercised  over  tliese  people  «  ho   ha\  e    a    much    inferior  educatiim  to  his  nwn. 

tliat  regarded  him   in    the   light   aliimst   ofasa\iour I    have   thought  that  he  might 

hiive  assunu'd  for  the  puri'iise  of  maintaining  his  influence  with  them,  more  thtiu  he 
riialiy  believed. 

Q.  That  is  your  impression.  Doctor? — A.  I  have;  thought  that  it  miglit  be  so.  I  don't 
t  link  it  is,  for  I  have  never  heard  him  speak  on  the  subject.  I  have  never  heard  him 
s  )eak  on  that  subject,  and  I  gather  that  knowledge  only  from  a  general  knowleilge  of 
V  hat  has  taken  place,  and  fiom  personal  knowledge  which  I  acipiired  in  speaking'w  ith 
?lr.  Kiel,  but  never  on  that  subject. 

Q.    And  of  course  that  knowledge  is  also  based  upon  a  very  inij^erfect  hearing  of  the. 
e  'idenee  ?  — A.  On  this  evidence  to  day,  it  is  not  based     I  had  a  very  imperfect  hearing 
oC  the  evidem-i-  of  to-day,  I  am  speaking  only  of  the  general  iudgement  I  fortned  in  my  ow  n  , 
niind,  entirely  apart  from  the  evidence  as  given  in  this  room  :   that  is  what  I  sjicak  of. 

Q.  That  is  entirely  outside  of  what  you  have  heard  here  ? — A.  Yes,  not,  let  me 
ol  .serve,  contrary  to  what  I  have  heard,  though  it  may  be  contrary  to  what  I  have  not 
h^tard. 

Q.   So  that,  now,  Doctor,  you  are  perfectly  aware,  are  you  not,  that  insane  men  have 

hibited  very  great  shrewdness  in  some  respc^cts? — A.  Yes. 

* 
Q.  Xow,  are  you  in  a  position  to  say.  Doctor,'  on  your  oath  that  this  man  here  is  not 

II  sane?  -A.  lam  in  a  position  to  say  that  after  a  very  considerable  aniount  of  i-onversa- 
twin  with  him,  and  (laily  communication  with  him,  I  have  never  spoken  to  him  on  a  single 
Abjeut  on  wiiicii  lie  has  Spoken  irrationally. 

M  Q.  And  you  have  never  spoken  to  him  on  the  particular  subjects  with  reference  to 
vhich  he  is  supposed  to  have  his  delusions? — A.    Name  the  subject. 


140  ■ 

i  • 

Q.  Oil  relinioii,  and  on  liis  mission  with  reference  to  the  North-West  Teritories  ?— 
ALJ.  haive  never  spoken  to  hini  on  either. 

Q.  Mr.  OsLER. — We  nmy,  Your  Honor,  be'ahle  to  sliorten  our  i-vidcnce  in  reiily,  if  it 
would  1)0  convenient  to  udjourn  now  (Five  P.  M.)  It  is  inipossilile  to  close  tlie  case  to 
night,  and  it  would  Ije  a  inatter  of  convenience  if  your  Honor  would  ajourn  now. 

Mr.  Leinieux.  We  agree  if  your  Honor  consents  to  it.  We  don't  want  to  lie 
responsiljle. 

Court  here  adjourned  till  10  A.  M. 


not 


Regina,  Friday  and  Saturday,  July  the  .31st.  and  August  1st.  1SS5. 
I  '  ... 

■Capt.aix  Holmes  Youx*;,  (recalled)  examined  by  Mr.  Robinson 

Q.  We  have  heard  ^roni  ym  as  to  the  part  you  took  in  this  rebellion  and  I  need 
•TO  over  that  again.    The  prisoner  was  in  your  charge  for  a  certain  time  ? — A.   Yes. 

()■   When  was  he  given  in  vour-charge  ? — A.   On  the  evening  of  the  l.'ith  may. 

Q.   I5y  whom  ? — A..  By  Major-(  Jeneral  Middleton,  commanding  the  forces. 

<^.  Wiiat  were  your  insti'Uftioils  ?  what  were  you  to  do  with  hini  ? — A.  1  was  res- 
ponsible t'or  the  prisoner  to  liold  him.  <  )n  Sunday  afternoon  I  received  instruction  to 
lea^e  with  liim  for  Kegilia.  ■  ■  , 

Q.  Was  it  on  sunday  afternoon  that  he  was  given  into  your  charge? — A.  He  , was 
given  into  my  charge  on  friday  and  remained  in  my  charge  till  Sunday,  when  I  reci'jved 
the  order  I  have  menti<ined      W«  left  on  monday  at  eleven  and  thirty  minutes. 

Q.  Wlien  did  you  ileliver  him  out  of  your  charge  ? — A.  [  delivered  him  here  on  the 
•2:5rd  of  Mav. 

Q  From  the  tinre  he  tii-st  came  under  your  cliarge  till  the  2:5rd  of  May,  he  was 
/Constantly  in  your  ciiarae  ? — .V.   Yes.  , 

Q.   I  )ay  and  night-  f-. — A.   Yes.  •  •     i 

<i    Had  you  much  conversation  with  him  ? — A.   About  himself  and  his  c^induil 
the  ])iirt  he  took  in  the  rebellion.     We  conversed  almost  constantly  i»n<i  very  freely. 

Q.  Fpon  what  sulnect  ?— A.  We  conversed  on  almost  every  subject  connected  witii 
the  rebellion.  j  ' 

Q  Well  then,  will  you  tejl  us  what  you  think  material  and  of  importfince  in  hfs 
convei-sjition  regarding  the  reliellion.  and  his  owji  conduct  and  the  ^'t  he  took  in  it  ?-i- 
A.  fJ(ning  tlie  term  of  eight  or  nine  d\iy.s  that  I  was  livin;;  witli  him'^litirely  there  w  .s 
an  imniense  amount  of  conver.sation.  I  have  no  notes  to  help  me  in  Spen4»ing  and  n|y 
remarks  may  be  a  good  deal  rambling  i    . 

Q.  Well,  tell  us? — A.   He  did  not  speak   in   reference   to   FislNJri 
reference  to  Duck  Lake, as  1  said  the  other  day. 

Q.  Did  he  speak  in  reference  to  liis  general  view  and  the  conduct  of  the  campaig^  ? 
— A.  In  reference  to  his  jfeneral  view,  as  to  the  conduct  of  the  campaign,  he  e.\ pres.sv'd 
himself  in  this  way,  that  he  was  not  so  foolish  as  to  imagine  that  he  lould  wage  wsar 
against  Canada  and  (treat  Britain.  But  he  hoped  by  the  first  success  to  comjiel  the  Oa- 
nadian  (government  to  consider  the  situation  or  accede  to  his  demands  He  placed 
in  this  way,  he  hoped  to  surround  and  capture  Major  Crozier's  forces  and  with  them  as 
hostages  to  compel  the  Canadian  Obvernment  to  con.sider  the  situation,  but  they  fai  ed 
in  that.  ' 

Q.  Did  he  say  how  he  failed  to  capture  Crozier  ? — A.  A  battle  occurred  and 


md 

i 


'reek,   he  spoke    fin 


^  ; 


141 


]ii)lii-c  rctirt'd  ;  lie  was  iitteiiiptiii;;  as  I  saul  to  sunound  the  police  force,  but  thefight  com- 
menced and  tlie  [lolice  retired.  He  spoke  in  reference  to  attacking'  the  tiolmuii  advanciiig 
from  (^u'Appelle  to  the  front.  He  said  hedid  not  imagine  lie  could  tight  the  arniv  in  the  tield 
and  the  reason  lie  did  not  adopt  guerilla  warfare,  was  that  he  hopeil  l)y  remaining  <|uiet 
to  induce'tlie  (ieiieral  to  .send  a  small  force  or  to  come  ahead  with  a  small  force  himself, 
and  iit^  hoped  to  capture  that  small  force  and  with  them  as  hostages  to  compel  tlie  Cana- 
dian (iovernment  to  consider  ;he  situation.  They  failed/  in  that.  Aii<l  then  he  made 
the  attempt  to  capture  the  steamer  Northcote,  his  intention  lieing  wlien  he  had  captured 
those  on  hoard  to  hold  them  as  hostages  to  compel  the  Canadian  (iovernment  to  oon.-»i(ler 
the  .situation.  He  said  lie  did  not  .severe  communication  with  the  East  by  telegraph  because 
he  hoj)ed  to  uso  the  telegiiiph  when  he  captured  the  hostages. 

Q.  Those  were  the  general  views  he  expressed  as  tft  the  situation  and  the  svstem  on 
which  he  intended  to  cany  on  the  campaign  and  hoped  of  success'?  I)id  he  talk  about 
religious  matters  '. — A.  I  noticed  that  when  the  conversation  was  reaching  a  point  that 
might  be  of  great  imi)ortanct!  and  if  he  wished  for  time  to  answer  or  to  evade  the  point 
of  the  conversation,  he  immediately  turned  on  religious   matters. 


that 


wav  .'—A.  1 


i).   He  seemed   to    use    his    views    on   religious    matters    in 
regarded  it. 

t^.  Did  he  express  any  special  views  aliout  religion  w  hen  he  did  turn  the  convensatioii  ' 
^^AJ.  We  had  a  conversation  on  the  subject  of  the  days  of  the  Week  and  the  subject  of 
the  i-eformed  church. 


whi-n  tln-( 'hri^tian  Church 

with  it  and  he  instancei 


i.ipanis 


l^.  Tell  us  any  views  he  e.xiuesed  on  ■ 
that  (Jod's  mercy  was  too  great  to  be  sinned  away  liyany  person  during  the  short  time  he 
'lail  to  live:  he  said  tliere  was  a  jieriod  of  puni.shment  and  after  that  tlfe  jieison  woirlil  be' 
foi,'i\eu.      In  reference  to  the  reformed  Church  and    the  days   of  the  week,  he    said  that 

merged  from  paganism  it    brought   some  of  the   remains   of 
the  days  of  the    week.       He  wished  to  purifv  Keliiriim 
uiil  particularly  in  thi'  North  West,  west  of  those  parts. 

!<^>.  .Vnv  other  mattei-  .'  —  A.  He  especially  mentioned  about  the  infallibility  of  the 
ope.  1  do  not  think  lie  referred  to  any  other  dogma  of  the  Church  except  that  he  tiesired 
lat  the  government  of  the  Church  might  be  locati'd  in  Canada  ;  once  or  twice  theconvei- 
sation  went  back  to  tlie  days  of  ti'.tand  70,  and  he  spoke  in  reference  to  Arclibi.-;h<»|)  Tache 
;i  s  a  friend  who  had  been  very  goo<l  to  him  and  he  did  not  wish  me  to  understand  him  as 
s  avini;  anvthing  against  Arclibislio]i  Tache,  or  liishop  IJoiirget  of  Montreal,  because  he 
lelt  that  lliev  wi'ie  personal  friends,  but  lie  felt  that  he  was  right  and  even  jieisonal 
t  riendship  would  have  to  give  way. 

,  (,».  .\re  there  any  iitlier  general  topics  on  which  you  conferred  with  him  and  on 
ijvliich  he  ga\e  you  any  information  ,' — A.  He  talked  about  the  Indians  in  ditl'erent  part;s 
(lif  the  country,  about  Irish  aid  from  the  I'nited  .States,  about  the  battle  of  IJatoche 
:  md  several  incidents  that  occurred  there.  He  spoke  about  the  rebellion  of  "(i9  and  '70  and 
(I  uring  the  trip  in  waggons  from  Saskatoon  to  Moo.se  Jaw  we  talked  on  almost  every 
c  n-unistance  and  subject,  t^neday  when  we  yamped  at  noon,  in  moving  around  the  camp 
ir  round  to  place  sentries,  I  stiw  some  Indians  signs  which  I  destroyed.  1  calle<l  his  atten- 
t:  on  to  them  and  he  said  it  was  ]iossible  they  might  have  been  left  there  by  a  lodge  of 
li  ulians  going  from  the  Cypress  Hills  to  help  him  at  Batoche.  ■ 

Q.  Is  there  anything  else  that  occurs  to  you,  of  eoufse  you  cannot  relate  all  the  coij- 
vjjrsation,  wa.  *liere  any  other  subject  upon  which  you  hail  conversation  that  you 
reJcoUect  ! — A.  When  we  found  the  books  and  papers  in  the  council  room  we  found  the 
wiord  "  Exovede  ".  This  bothered  us  a  great  deal,  I  coukl  not  translate  it  at  all  and  one 
of  the  first  things  that  I  asked  the  prisoner  was  i^hat  the  meaning  of  that  was.  he  .wrote 
tlie  meaning  of  the  word  in  my  note  book,  he  wrote, also  the  meaning  of  his  mission  in 
fie  note  book. 

Q.   l)o  you  remember  what  it  was? — A.  He  said  that  every  one  had  a  mission,  and 


142      ' 

'  r 

that   liis    mission    was    to    accoii'iplish    practical    results.       The    iiieaiiinjr   of   the    word 
■'  Exovede,  '  was  he  said  from  two  latin  words, <'.'v"froin,"  nv'tti'  ''the  Hock/  That  the  coun- 
cillors were  members  of  the  liock.      He  hiuiself  professed   not   to   be   from   exovede,  that  • 
there  was  an  exovede  outside  of  him  with  the  ptesi<lejit. 

y.  Does  anything  else  occur  to  you,  I  don't  wish  you  to  give  all  the  conversation  ;  if 
you  tell  us  what  is  important  and  material,  that  will  be  satisfactory  to  nie  ? — A.  Tliat 
is  all  I  can  think  that  will  have  any  liearing  on'the  case,  there  was- a  great  deal  of  con- 
versation. X/ 

Q.  From  tirst  to  last  of  these  conversations  with  you.  did  you  observe  anytjiing  to 
arouse  a  suspicion  or  indicate  that  lie  was  of  unsound  mind  I — A.  Xone  at  all,  cei-taiiily 
not.  I  found  that  1  had  a  mind  against  my  own  and  fiiHy  e(|ual  to  it,  better  educated 
and  much  more'  clever  than  I  was  myself.  He  would  sto]i  and  e\ade  answering  (|uestions 
with  the  best  possible  advantage. 

t^.  The  idea  of  mental  abeiration,  unsoundness  of  mind,  iiexei' occurred  to  you  ? — A. 
I  believe  it  was  for  a  purpose,  what  lias  been  given  as  a  reason  for  insii;iity. 

Q  Did  he  profess  to  you  to  have  the  .Spirit  of  God  or  the  power  of  j)ropliecy  ?—  A. 
No.  never  to  me. 

liy   Mh     (iKEEXSIlIKLDS.  ■  .      . 

(j.  What  experieucje  have  you  had  in  dealing  with  jieople  of  imsuiind  ujind  .' — A^ 
None  at  all.  j  ' 


Q    You  are  only  SfJeaking  now  from  the  conversations  you    had  with 
— A.    Merely  from  the  nine  days  I  lived  with  hiiii. 

y.   You  never  had  a  medical  education  in  that  resjiect  ? — AI^X 

Q.  You  do  not  consider  yourself  in  a  jiosition  to  gi\e  an  opinion  as   to  sanity  I-  A- 

I  coulil  not  give  a  medii'al  opinion,  but  I  consider  that  during  the  nine  days  1  was  !l\ing. 

with  him,  1' would  know  if  I  was  living  with  a  lunatic.  ^  i  . 

s  !* 

Q.   Did  you  hear  Doctor  Clark  state  that  it  would  take  three  -or  four  months  to  i.nd 

out  whether  a  person  was  insane,  in  many  cases  ! — A    I  did. 

Q.  Do  you  think  you  are  as  clever  as  these  doctors  who  have  stated  that  .'  A.  1 
think,  living  with  him  as  I  did,  it  would  be  diflerent.        \     . 

Q.  Did  you  hear  tlie  doctor  say  it  would  re(]uire  constant  conversation  witii  the 
person  to  discover? — A  Not  constant,  such  intercourse  as  the  superintendent  of  ;ui 
asylum  would  have. 

Q.  Have  you  gotjthat  little  book  he  wrote  in? — A.  The  Counsel  for  the  (,'r(»\|n 
have  it.  j 

Q     You  state  that  he  told   you  his  mission  was  to   pro<luce   practical    results? 
Yes,  the  e.xact  words  are  in  the  little  note  book. 

Q.  y6n  gave  him  the  book  and  asked  him  to  write  in  it  ?— A.  He  asked  for  pny 
book  to  write  in  it,  so  that  it  would  be  cori-ect  and  that  there  would  be  no  misunderstiuid- 
ing  about  it  after. 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  what  the  piactical  results  of  his  mission  was  to  be  ?— ^A.  iHe 
spoke  freipiently  of  the  aiiniliilation  of  the  Metis  by  the  Hudson  liay  company  and  ,the 
mounted  ])olice.  I  wanted  to  get  at  tlie  meaning  of  the  annihilation,  but  I  could  (not 
succeed,  he  evaded  me.  ,  " 

Q.  The  practical  I  results  did  he  explain  tn  yonJ^K.  His  explanation  was  tha'f  he 
■wanted  to  save  the  people  of  the  North  West  from  annTliilation. 


IS  that 


Q.   That- wa^  the  practical  result  ofhis  mission  as  you  gathered  in  conversation  with 
him  ? — A.  He  evaded  me,  he  would  not  come  down  to  particulars.  '( 


143 

Q.  Did  he  tell  you  anything  as  to  dividinir  thq  Territories  among  diflfereut  national- 
ities ? — A.  No,  the  first  I  heard  of  that  was  in  the  'court  room. 

Q.  You  stated  that  lie  said  he  was  not  foolish  enough  to  imagine  that  he  could  wage 
war  against  England  and  Canada  ? — A.  I  asked  liiiii  how  he  exjieeted  with  700  or  tSOiO 
men  to  wage  war  against  three  millions  of  i)eople. 

Q.  You  included  England? — A.  Yes,  being  the  governing  country  (u(;>te  hook  handed 
to  witness  wiio  reads)  "  I  have  a  mission,  so  has  everyliody ;  for  me  I  understand  my  mission 
in  this  way  :  to  liring  ahout  practical  results."  j 

Q.  I  understand  there  is  something  in  your  book  in  reference  to  the  Word  '•e.Yovide"  ? 
— A.    It  is  lengthy.  i 

Q.  No  matter,  let  us  have  it? — A.  It  is  as  follows:  '' e.rovde,"  from  Latin 
word' «.c(»(v</<',  "  Hock,"  from  two  Latin  words,  e.i;  which  means,  "from,"  and  oril-', 
"flock."  That  word  I  made  use  of  to  convey  that  I  was  assuming  lio  audiority  at 
all  And  t)ie  advi-sers  of  the  movement  took  also  that  title  instea  d  of  councilloip  or  rejire- 
se'utiitives  ;  and  tliere  purpose  in  doing  so  was  e.vactly  the  same  as  mine,  no  assumption  of 
autiiority.  We  consider  ourselves  a  part  of  society  and  near  us  and  other  }>arts  of  the 
same  society  attempted  to  rule  over  us  improperly  and  tiy  false  representations  and 
thi-ough  liad  mismanagement  of  i)ul>lic  atiairs  were  injuring  us  greatly,  at  the  same 
tiijie  rliey  were  olitainiiig  the  ear  of  tlie  Government  ;  they  were  turning  all  the  press 
ajfainst  us.  The  situation  was  leading  us  simply  to  annihilation!  Without  assuming  any 
aiithority  than  that  wliicli  exists  liy  itself  in  the  condition  of  our  nature,  we  recurred  to  the 
rigiit  of  self-preservation  and  tliose  who  agreed  to  act  together  in  the  protection  of  ttieir 
tixistence.  threatened  iii  so  n'lany  diHVrent  ways,  took  the  names  of  <•.<•<>(■< (/^,  so  that  having 
leir  distinctive  title  for  the  time  heing  and  to  lie  kuo4vn  liy  the  men  of  the  movement 
hen  tiie  crisis  would  he  over,  the  reaction  would  lie  as  light  as  possible  for  tire  reason 
hat  what  would  have  lieen  undertaken  and  accomplished  under  the  sound  authoritv  of 
iood  sense,  could  have  no  other  result  than  good  ones,  and  conseiiuently  the  move- 
lent  ]iro\  fd  to  lie  less  a  disturbance  than  a  remedy  to  some  things  which  were  previously 
going  too  far  in  the  wrong.  fSeveral  times  it  is  true  we  made  use  of  the  words  represen- 
tatives, members  of  the  coumil  but  Ave  had  to  do  it  until  the  word  i-.i-ored''  was  under- 
stood and  until  it  woulil  begin  to  become  usual  among  tiie  men  of  the  movement.  So 
the  council  itself  is  not  a  council  and  being  composed  of  ''  exovede.s,"  we  ha\  e  called  it 
"  Exovedate." 


/i' 


Genekai.  .MiDiiLETOX,  recalled,  examined  by  Mr.  Robinson. 

Q.  General  JkEiddleton,  you  have  been  examined  already  in  this  case,  on  what  date 
did  you  see  Kiel  come  into  your  custody  '. — A.  on  the  loth  of  May,  I  think. 

Q.    And  how  long  was  it  before  he  left  your  camp  ? — A.  On  the  morning  of  the  19th. 

Q.  iSo  he  was  with  you  almost  four  days  J — A.   Yes,  three  or  four  days,  i 

Q.  .\.nd  during  that  time  had  you  much  conversation  with  him  ? — A.  N<>,  not  much. 
I  had  more  conversation  with  him  th*«^rst  day  than  any  other,  for  I  had  him  for  the 
first  [lart  of  the  diy,  in  fact  nearly /lie  whole  day,  in  my  tent,  until  1  prei>ilred  another 
place  for  him,  so  that  1  really  talkfed  more  with  him  on  that  day  than  any  other. 

Q.  That  was  immediately  after  his  capture  ? — A.   Yes.  | 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  any  general  idea  what  your  subjects  of  conversation  with  him 
were  and  what  he  said  about  himself  and  his  party  and  his  plans  ? — A.  W^'ll,  I  did  not 
ask  him  much  about  them.  I  remember,  asking  him  some  ipiestions  similar  to  what 
C.iptain  Youiig  has  told  you.  I  remember  asking  him  why  he  confined  himself  to  cutting 
the  telegraph  wire  only  between  Frog  Lake  or  between  that  station  and  Prince  Albert^ 
why  he   confined  himself  to  only  removing   that   and  not   removing  the  other  wire  all 


Q    Tiikinji  hostages 
I  think,  l/y  means  of  wlii 

<i     Is  there  aiiytliiii; 


144  . 

around  me.  and  as  iieaj'  as  1  can  rememher,  liil  answer  was  tliat  lie  only  wanted  to 
cut  ort"  tlie  police  fronij  Prince  Alhert  and  tha^  lie  thoii.ifht  he  ini.',dit  deprive  them 
of  lieinj;  able  to  connnunicate  with  the  rest  of  Canada,  and  that  he  woulil  [irolialily  want 
to  u.se  it  himself.  And  then  1  asked  him  how  he  came  to  think  he  would  lie  alile  to  wajje 
war  aifainst  Canada  with  Kn;;lainl  at  its  back,  because.  1  said,  Hnirland  would  of  course 
have  come  to  the  front  at  Canada  beini;  beaten  :  that  it  woidd  have  b<'en  inijinssible  for 
liiiii  to  liope  to  succeed  ai^ainst  Canada,  and  he  u'iive  nievery  much  a  similar  answer,  that 
he  did  not  expect  to  bi-  able  to  beat  then;,  but  he  thonjiht  that  by  dint  of  showing  a  jrood 
bold  front  that  he  would  jirobably  get  better  terms  from  the  ( io\  ernment,  and  he  .seeme<l 
to  have  an  iudetinite  idea,  a  sort  of  ftlea  of  taking  everyliody  prisoner  he  could  lay  hold 
of,  that  he  thought  lie  could  taki-  Major  Crozier,  and  he  sijid  he  hoped  to  take  me 
prisoner,  and  that  he  woiihl  then  ha\e  got  better  terms. 

ill  l)oiiit  of  fact  ? — A.  Yes,  liostages,  that   was  the  general  view 
ch  lie  woul(^l  obtain  better  terms. 

else  he  said  'to  you  fin  the  subji-ct  that  you  remember? — A.   No, 
Icannot  really  remember  anything  more. 

*i.   Did  he  ^peak  to  [vou  on  religious  subjects  J — A.  Yes.  - 

''  Q.  What  were  his  views  .'  -A.  Heoften  turned  the  cunversation  to  religious  subjects. 
He  told  me  some  of  his  \ii<'\vs.  Some  of  them  I  had  nothing  to  say  against.  I  used  to 
listen  to  what. he  had  to  say.  He  told  me  Rome  >vas  all  wrong  and  corrupt,  aud  that  the 
priests  were  uarrow-niin<|e(l  and  had  interfered  too  mncli  with  the  ]H'ople,  and  other'of 
his  ideas  were  excessively  good,  he  told  me  he  thought  religion  should  be  ba>ed  (in 
morality  ami  humanity  aii<l  charity-.       He  talked  in  that  sense  and  stvle. 

<^.  You  cannot  remember  anything  else  just  now  thai  he  said  to  vou  .'A.   Xo, 

Q  Kuring  all  your  intercoiiise  wiih  him.  did  you  see  anything  whatever  to  indicate 
any  suspicion  of  unsounilness  of  niijid  in  him  .' — A.  No,  I  cannot  .say  I  did,  on  the  i-oii- 
trary.  '  , 

<^.  l)id  it  occur  to  you  there  was  any  reason  to  imagine  the  man  was  not  perfectlyi 
sound  in  mind  ^ — A  Ni),  I  should  say  on  the  contrary  he  was  a  man  of  rather  acute] 
intellect.  He  seemed  ijuite  able  to  liold  his  own  upon  any  argument  or  topic  we, 
■happened  to  touch  upon.  I 

<.^.   That  idea  never  occurred  to  you  ! — A.    Of  course  1  had   heard   constaiitiv  before 
aliout  reports  of  his  insanity.     I  hi'ard  for  instance  one  or  two  of  the  people  that   cscajieil  | 
from  him,  scouts,  H.ilflnveds.  <  )iie   man,  I  remember,  told  me  "(Ih;    Hid  is  mad,  he  is  a  i 
fool."    He  told  me  that  he  was  doing  at  liatoche.  "    So  thai  1  r'eally  had  heard  it,  but  I 
came  to  the  conclusion  he  was  v  ery  far  from  being  mad  or  a  fool. 

i}.  That  was  your  c([inclusion  I — t^.    Yes,  that  was  my  conclusifui. 

Examined  bv  .Mr  <  IkeenIsiiieliis.  ^ 

I 

(}.  l)id  that  man  say  what  HiePwas  (loing  at  Itatoche  .'  -A.  Nothing,  he  simply 
said  Kiel  was   i  fool  and  hihrugge<l  his  shoulders. 

(j.  The  letters  addivssed  to  you  by  Kiel  were  signed  by  him  ■■  £.i-(ireile"l — A.  1 
believe  they  were. --No,  J  don  t  think  they  were,  you  have  them  there 

Q:  f)£  i-ourse  you  ijiever  had  seen  Kiel  pieVious  to  his  surrender  on  the  loth.'— 
A.  Never. 


Charles  Bruce  PitblaBo  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  Osler. 
Q.  You  live  in  Winuipejj  and  are  a  clergyman? — A.   Yes. 

Q.  Were  you  on  the  boat  wjieii  the  prisoner  was  hrouyht  down  the  Saskatchewan  j 
— A.   I  was  on  the  .Vorl/iciilv  with  Kiel.       ■  '  ' 


145  / 

Q.  From  what  date  and  for  how  long  ? — A.  We  were  on  the  )ioat  niondav,  tuesday 
and  part  of  tlie  Wednesday. 

Q.   Were  you  in  his  couipany  otherwise  ? — A.- 1  aoconipanied  hiiii  to  Regina. 

Q  How  many  days  were  you  ou  tlie  way  altogether  3 — A.  Five  davs.  We  came  here 
on  Saturday  and  liad  left  on  the  moiiday. 

Q    Had  you  any  conversation  with  him  ? — A.  Several  conversations  v.ith  him. 

i)  On  wliat  sulijects? — A  Well,  on  various  sulyects,  on  tire  reliellion,  as  1  call  it, 
also  nil  his  religious  views  and  we  spoke  of  various  other  sulijects'. 

Q.   Did  he  give  you  liis  plans,  his  schemes,  what  he  hojied  to  get  l>y  the  M>ellion  ? — 
A.    ^  es,.  his  general   scheme  was  this:   he  hoped  to  induce  the  (toverimient  to  make  a' 
treaty  with  liim  or  with  the  Half-lireeds  of  the  Xorth-West  similar  to  the  treaty  they  had 
made  with  the  Half-breeds  of  Alanitolia.     That  was  what  he  stated  to  Ke  his  chief  oliject. 

Q.  How  did  he  hope  to  accomplish  that  with  his  force? — A.  He  told  me  tirst  of 
having  sent  his  hill  of  rights  or  representation  of  his  grievances  to  the  Governmeut. 

Q.  How  did  he  hojje  with  his  organisation  to  get  what  he  wanted  ?— A.  It  would  be 
neces.sary  for  nie  to  teH  just  how  the  niatter  progressed. 

Q.  No,  we  oidy  want  whut  is  material  ] — A;  Well,  he  hoped  to  get  the  police  in  his 
jx^wer,  so  that  wliilst  they  were  held,  I  suppose  as  hostages,  he  said  silnplv  while  he 
hjjld  thoiu,  that  lie  nijght  negotiate  witii  the  Goverumeiit  while  they  were  inliis  power.^ 

/       Q.  Then   did  he   sav  how  that   failed.' — A.    He  explained,  kow  tliat  failed  at  Duck 

4.ake. 

/  .  .  ■  .         ■.    "^  ■ 

I        Q.   Did  he  tell  you  what  his  object  was  at   Duck  Lak^  ? — A.   His  object  was  to  get 

]|iold  of  tlie  police,   so  that  while,  tliey  were  iu  his  power  he  hiight  negotiate  with  the 

government.  ^  - 

I  <^.   Then  faili.iff  that,  what  wis  his  next  plan  ? — .\.   To  meet    General    MiiUlletou's 

''forces  at  Fish  (,'reek  and  if  tlicy  suH'ered  rever.ses  of  which  he  was  pretty  contident  they 
would,  that  he  wouhl  tlieii  send  wiml  to  tlii-  Iniliiins  and  while  the  troops  in  the  country 
■were  busy  with  the  Indians,  wlm  lie  fi-h  confident  would  rise,  that  then  he  would  be  able 
to  negotiate  with  the  Government.  That  is  substantially  the  plan  as  it  impressed  itself 
on  my  mind 

tj.   Thi>  seito'n.l  plan  wis  to  rneet  him  at   Fish  Creek  and  then  raise  the  Indians  and  ., 
whilst  thecimutrv  was  engaged  with  the  liidians.to  carry  on  negotiations  with  the  Govern- 
ment ?  -  .\.   Tiiat  is  substautiaily  wiiat  I  understood  it  to  be. 

t^  Kaiiinii  that,  what  did  in-  exjiect  to  do  ; — A.  Well,  if  that  failed,  and  of  course  it 
did  fail,  he  still  hoped  to  meet  lieiieral  Middleton  at  liatoclie  j'.nd  he  would  be  able  to 
hold  him  at  bav  long  enough  to  ni",'otiate  \\  ith  the  Government. 

<^   The.se  Were  ills  ^hree  dill'erent  stQps  .- — A.    His  three  ditTerent  steps.- 

<>.  All  ending  with  the  one  object  *-^A.  Yes,  to  get  a  treaty  with  the  Government. 

IJ.  Xow  you  hiul  a  conversation  with  hiio,  how  frequently  .- — A.  I  had  tiiein  often 
and  during  tin;  wliole  of  that  rime.   I  could  not- tell  the  number,  we  often  siioke  totrether. 

Exaiuiiied  by  .Mr.  (Jkkexmiiei.ds.'  i 

iy    How  long  did  you  say  you  had  been  with  him  on  the  l>oat  altogether  '. — A.  From 
nonilay  to  Saturday,  from    tlie  .time    they    stirted    from  liuardupuy    cmssing    till  We. 
came  to  Itcgina.  • 


^■. 


(i-  You  iip^^had  seen  Oi  met  Mr.  Riel  before  that  time 


-A.   Xever. 


10 


146 

Captain  Ricuabd  Dease,  sworn,  examined  by  Mr.  BuHBiDfiE.  , 

Q.   You  belong  to  the  Xorth  West  mounted  police  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  lias  the  prisoner  been  in  your  charge  ? — A.  Yes,  since  tlie  2.3rd  of  may  last. 

Q.  Have  you  had  occasion  to  visit  him  frecjuently  1 — A.  Yes,  I  have  se^^n  a  gixid 
deal  of  him  from  first  to  last. 

Q.  Since  that  time  up  to  the  present  ? — A.  Yes.  . 

Q.  You  have  conversed  with  him  1 — A.  Ye.s. 

Q.   Principally  on  wiiat  subjects  ? — A.  Chiefly  subjects  affecting  prison  discipline  and 
as  to  his  diet  and  concessions  as  to  lil>erty.    All  requisitions  must  be  made  to  uie. 

Q.    Have  you  been  always  able  to  grant  them  to  liiin  ? — A.  Well,  not  always. 

Q.   When  refused  did  lie  sliow   any  excitement  or  irritabiiily  ? — A.  No,  his  manii>  r 
was  most  ])olite  and  suave  and  he  never  altered  his  manner  in  the  least. 

<2-    From  the  oljscrvatjon  you  had  of  him,  have  you  seen  anything  to  indicate  he  is 
not  of  sound  mind  ? — A.  Nothing  whatever. 

Q.  Anytliing  to  indicate  tiie  contrary  ? — A.  Yes,  t  think  so,  he  always  gave  me  the 
impression  of  lieing  very  shrewd. 


■I        ■  .  \ 

Joseph  Pifiorx,  (Sworn,  examined  liy  Mr.  l>urliidg.'. 

Q.    You  are  a  member  of  the  North  West mounted  police  ? — A.  V«^l    •  '  , 

<j.   Wliat  is  your  position  ? — .\.  Corporal.  [  ,  -I 

Q.    You  have  had  chaifge  of  the  prisoner  i     A.  Yes.  , 

Q.  Since  when  1 — A.  22nd  of  may.  ' 

Q.   Have  you  been  his  keeper  ? — A.  I  have. 

Q.   Did  you  see  him  daily  ? — A.    Many  times  a  day. 

y.   Have  you  convers(|d  with  hiii^  ?— A.  I  did  not  converse  witii  iiim. 

Q.   You  have  had  frecjuent  opportunity  of  observing  liini  ? — A.    Yes. 

Q.    Have  you  seen  anytliing  in  his  conduct  to  show  he  is  not  of  sound    mind  ? — .\, 
No  Sir,  I  always  considered  him  of  souhd  mind. 

Q.   You  have  heard  liilii  speak  ? — A.  Often,  Sir. 

(j.   And  he  spoke  with  good  reason  ? — A.  Willi  reason  and  politeness. 

Mr.  Osler.     That  is  the  close  of  the  evidence  in  reply. 

Mr.  FiTZPATHiCK  follows,  and  after  him  tlie  prisoner. 


147 


TIIH   PRiSl^XER'S   ADDRESS. 


Ueciust!    till! , circiiiustaiiues    are   suvli  as  to  cxiitti    any   in;>ii  and    under   the 
txcitfiiicnt  pt'  wliJit  is  takinu'  I'latii  to-tlay  (I  t-aiiimt  :sj><>ak.  l'.ii<;ll>li  veiv  well,  but 


Your  II(jn<>rs,  (tciitlenii'n  of  the   Jury:   It   would   In;  easy   tor   me   to-day  to  play 
iiisaiiit 
natur;i 

I  am  tiyiiis,'  to  do  .sonii-causi!  mn.st  of  those!  heie  r[ieak    KiiL'lish).     I'lider  tlw?  f\i-itehieut 
wliii-h  my  trial  lausjff  ijie  would  justily  me  not  to  Miiin-Jir  as  usual,' l«ut  witli  iny  mind  out 
of  if<  (Miliiiary  toiKlJnon.      [   liojie,  with  the  liel])  of  ( J<id.  I  will  maii.taiii  laimuess   and 
(U'ii,.um  as  suits  the   HonoraKle  Court,  this  lIoii.>nil>!<-  Jury       You    liisve  seen   by  the 
paiHMs  in  the  hands  of  the  Ciown  that  I  aiu  natui:illy  inelined  to  thiiik-  <>i  ( )<  il  at  the  l>e<;in- 
inj;  of  \n\  actioas.      I  wisii,  if  1  do  it,  you  won't  take  it  as  a  mark  of  iil.^.l!lity,  that '^ you 
won  t  t.iki'  it  as  part  of  a  ])lay  of  insjiuity       Oh  iiiy  (iod  '.   belli  iho  tJtrouirh  tliy  yraei- and 
•  the  divine  intluenee  of  Jesus  Chii.-t.  Ohmylrod  !  ije.ss  me,  hlesM  this  h.'Ufnat.le  Court, bless 
this  llon.irabli'  Juiw  ble,ss' my  u'ood  lawyers  who  have  vonie  7UU  leaj^ues  to  try  tji  sa\e  my 
!litV,  bl(>s  alno  the  laywer-.  for  tpe  Crown,  be.aiise  thf-y  !ia\e-done,   1 -am   sure,  what  they 
'thoiiifht  ih.jrdiity.      They  have  shown  iiic  fairness  wliieif  at  tir.^t    1    did  iitit  exi-eet  from 
I  them       I  ih  my  (!.id  1   bless  all  tliose  who  artv  around  hk;  throuvh  the  i;rac<^  and  iiitfuenie. 
(   of  Je>u.»  (,'iirir.t  Our  Saviour,  cliaii'^'e  the  euriosity  of  t!<(.se  who  are  j:;iyin^' attention   to 
(■    lue,  ehan^i!  that  euriosity  into  symiiathy  with  iiie     The  flay  or  my  birtii" i  was  h_elj)l?.-.s  an<i 
!    my  mother  took  caie  of  me  aithoUi.'h  she  was  not  able  to  do  it  alon<;,  there  was  ^oaie  one 
I    to  helji  her  to  take  ciireof  iu^  a'al  I  li\id.   To-day,  ait!ioui;h  a  inan,  I  aiu  a^  heljilcM  befoitf 
thin  CMiirt.  ill  the  4>ondiiiou  of  Canada  and  injliis  wjirld  as  1  was  lieiples.s  on   the  kuees 
'    of  mv  niotlier  the  day  of  itiy  birth.     The  North  \Vt;sr  is  also  iny  mother,-  it  is  my  nioth>-r 
country,  and  althou:.(h  my  mother  eountry  is  siek  and  eontineti  iu  a  certain  way,lhero  are. 
soiiK'  fiiim   Lower  ( '.-inada  who  eame  to  help  her  to  take  eaie'of  me  during   lier  sivk'ie--.s, 
and  I  am  sure  that  my  mother  eotiutry  will  not  kill  me  more  than   my  mother  did  forty 
year;  a^o,  when  (  eaiae  into  the  world,  iiweau.se  a  mother   is   alwavs-it-iuotlver,  and  even 
if  I  h'U.-  my  faults,  if  --lie  tan  .sett   I    am  true,  .slie  will  bt-   full    of  lo\e  for  Jiie.  '     When    I 
came  into  the  \orlh-\\'e.->t  in  July,  the  first  of  July  Issi.  [  found  the   hidkCas  sutleriu;.', 
I  found  tlie  ll-ilf-breed.s  eatitis,'  the  rotten  [.ork  of  the  Hiulson  Bay  Coinpaiiy,  and  glutting 
si.k  aiid  weik  ev<'ry  day.       Altlioui^h  a  llalf-iir'-^'l  and  iiavini;  -no  pretention  to   help  tlie 
whiter,  r  also  paiil  atti'lilion  to  them,  1  saw  theS   were  deprived  of  re,|iousilile  C;o\ernm«it. 
I  saw  tiiat  they  Were  ;leiu-ived  of  their  public  liberties,  I  reiiiembered  thtit  Hall-breed  nieant 
wliite  and  Indian  and  wWV-I  paid  atttiiitiou  to  the  sutieriii'^  Indians  and  the.  Half-breeds, 
I  reiii.i.ibered  that  the  :;ii!atest  p.iWs  of  my  heart  and  blood  y.as  white,  aiui  I  ha-vi-  directed 
my  attention  to  help  t  he<  Indian.s,   tiv  hel|)  the    f  la!f-l>reeils  and  t-.i  helji  the  whites  to. the 
be-,t  of  my  ability.      We*lnve  made  pi-titions,  I  have  inaile   petitioiis  with   others  t()  the. 
Cairtdiun  (loveriiuient,.}iskin'4  to  ielie\e  the  condition  of  "this  country.      We  have  taken 
time,  we  hav  e  tried  fo  uiute  ail  cia.^ses  even  if  I  may  so  spe.ik,  ail  parties.   Tha.se  who  havi 
been  in  clo^e  communination  with  me  know  I  have  suti'ered,  that  I  have  waited  months  to 
briiii;-  .some  of  the  people  of  the  Saskatchewan  to  an  under.>.tandin_;,'  of  certain  important 
points  in  oin-  |)etitions  to   the  Caiuidian  (io'vernuuiit   and  1  ha\e  done  tny  duty.      It  has 
been  --lid  iu  tld-i  lio\  tint  I  had  been  ei;olistic.      Perhaps  1  am  esoti.stie.      A  mancainiot'' 
bean  indi\idualty  without  payinj,'attention  to  himself,  he  cannot  generalize  himself  though 
he  iiiayJie  u'l^neral.      1  ha\  e  done  all  I  could  to  make  -rood  petitions  with  others  au<l  we 
have  .sent  rhem  to  the  Canadian  ( Joverinnent,  and  when  the  Canadian  Governmt  nt  clid 
answer  throu^ih   the   under-.secietaiy  of  State  to  the  secret  iry  of  the  joint  couinnttee  of 
the  Saskatchewan,  then  I  began  lospeak  of  myself,  not  before.    So  my  particular  interest 
passed  aft -r  the  public  interest.      A  j,'ood  deal  has  been  said   about  the  settjement   and 
division  of  lands,  a  good  deal  had  been  said  about  that.     I  do  not    think  my  dignity  to- 


148 


«Iay  hciv  woul.I  allow  iiio  to  iiiPutioii  tlir-  foroi).'ii  policy.  Imt  if  I  was  to  oxplaiii  to  you  or 
it  i  li:i(I  lieeii  allo\vi-.l  to  iiiak<"  th''  (luestions  to  witnesses,  tlioso  fjuestioiis  would  liavc^ 
aj)li.-:ui-il  in  an  altoiiillici-  dili'ilient  liijht  Ijet'oii^  tlif  Court  ami  Jury.  ,'I  do  not  say  that 
niv  lawyers  (lid  not  ]int  thi>  ri},'ht  i|Ui'.stions.  The  oliscrvations  I  liad  tlic  honor  to  make 
to  till-  Couil  tlie-day  before  yesterilay  were  ^'ood  ;  tliey  were  at. sent  of  the  situation,  they 
did  not  know  all  the  small  cir«-uinst:ince.s  as  I  <rh+.  I  could  nif-ntion  a  ]ioint,  l>ut  thai  point 
was  leidin;.'  to  .so  many,  that  I  could  not  liave  lieeu  all  the  tinic  su^r^'t'stiiiL'  hv  it.  I  don't 
wish  it  understood  that  1  do  ifot  ajipreciate  the'  jrood  work  of  my  lawyers,  hut  if  J  wcrr 
to  j,'o  into  all  the  details  of  what  has  taken  place,  1  think  I  couhl  safely  show  you  that 
what  Capt.  Yo'inu'  said,  that  I  am  ainiinj.'  ajl  the  time  at  practical  results.  ar<'  true  and  I 
could  liave  jiroved  it...  Durin;,'  my  lite  I  had  aimed  at  jiractical  results,  f  have  writiii;is 
and  after  my  death  I  liofie  th.it  my  s])iiiit  will  hriuL,'  pr.ictical  results  The  learned  lawyers 
for  the  Crown  have  produced  all  the  papi-rs  and  scriliiilLuL,'  that  was  under  their  hands.  I 
thaiilt  them  for  not  havin;;  lirou;,'ht  out  those  papers  which  are  so  partiiulai- to  myself, 
though  as  soon  as  they  saw  what  they  were,  they  shoulil  not  have  looked  at  theni.  I  have 
written  not  hooks.  Imt  many  Ihinus.  All  my  papers  were  taken.  I  ilestined  the  jiapers 
to  he  puMished,  if  they  were  worth  pulilishin;;^after  my  death.  I  told  I'arentea'i.  one  of 
the  prisoners,  to  put  all  my  hooks  under  ground,  he  did  not  do  it,  at  that  time  they 
licknowledged  my  order,  that  is  why  I  .say  so.  He  diil  not  put  my  hooks  away  in  time, 
and-  I  am  not  sorry.  I  say  I  thank  the  learned  lawyers  for  the  Crown  for  ha\  inir  reserved 
so  many  thin^rs,  and  if  hy  the  Almighty  power  of  (iod  I  go  free  from  this  tiial,  Ihave 
such  contideilee  in  Hritisli  fairness  that  all  niy  ))apers  will  he  returned  tome,  at  least  the 
6riginals  and  if  copies  are  wanted  I  will  Tie  willing  to  give  them.  5Co  one  can  say  that 
the  Xortli-West  was  not  sutl'erius;  la.st  year,  particularly  the  Saskatchewan  :  fur  tin- other 
parts  of  the  North  West  I  cannot  say  so  much,  hut  what  I  have  done  and  lisked  and  to 
which  1  have  exjKjsed  myself  rested  certiinly  on  tlie  convictiiiii  I  had  to  do,  wa>  called 
upon  to  do  .s.,nietliing  for  my  country.  — 

It  is  true  r  helieved  for  yeirs  I  h.i  1  a  mission  and  when  I  spe-.ik  •••'  a  nii>sion.  you 
will  understand  nie  n<)t  as  tryinu  to  ]ilay  the  loleof  insane  liefore  the  (iiand  Jury  so  as  to 
have  a  Verdict  of  accpiittal  upon  that  gioiuid. 

I  ijelieve  1  that  I  had  a  idission,  I  lielieve  that  I  hafi  a  mission  at  this  \ei-y  nioment. 
What  eucour.»'./es  me  to  speak  to  you  with  more  eontilence  in  all  the  inipirt<-it  iun^  of  my 
english  way  of  .s])isikiiig,  it  isi  that  I  ha\e  yet  and  still  that  mission,  and  n>  iih  the  hidjiof 
God.wlio  is  in  til  is  box  with  me  and  lie  is  on  the  side  of  my  lawyers,  even  with  tin-  honorahle 
,  Court,  the  Crown  and  the  Julry.  to  hel]!  me  and  topio\ei>y  the  e.xtraordinary  help  that 
here  is  a  Pi-ovidence  to-day  in  my  tiM  as  there  was  a  Piov-i<lence  in  the  l.atiles  of  the 
Saskatchewan.  ' 

I  have  not  assumed  to  nlyself  that  I  had  a  mission.  I  was  woiking  in  .Maiiitoli;i  lir.st 
and  I  did  all  J  could  to  get  five  institutions  for  Manitoha.  They  have  tiio.M- institutions  to- 
day in  Mayitolia  and  they  tr}- to  improve  them,  while  niy.<elf  whoohtained  them.  I  am  for 
gotten  as  if  I  was  dea<l.  But  after  1  luid  olitained  with  Mie  help  of  otlieisa  constitution 
for  Manitoba,  when  the  government  at  Ottawa  was  not  willing  to  inaugurate  it  at  the 
pri>per  titue.  J  liave -worked  till  the  inauguration  should  take  jilaceand  that  is  why  I  have 
been  baitiehe.l  for  live  years.  I  had  tciivst  live  years.  1  was  unwilling  to  do  it.  I  jirolested. 
I  saiil  :  Oil  iiiV  (iod  !  \  oljer  you  all  my  existence  for  that  cause  ami  )ile.ise  to  make  of  my 
iveakness  an  instrument  to  help  men  in  my  country-  And  seeing  my  intenlion.s,  the  late 
Archbislioii  I'l.iiigi  t  .said  "  Kiel  has  no  narrow  view.s.  he  is  a  man  to  accomfiiish  great 
things '"  and  he  wrote  that  letter  of  which  1  hope  that  the  Crown  has  at  least  a  copy.  And 
ill  another  letter  when  1  became  what  I  )is  lielieved  to  Jpe.  insane,  IJi.sho])  liouiL'et  v.  rote 
agiiiii  and  s;>iil  '•  \e  be  ble.-..sed  by  (iod  and  man  and  t.ike  patieine  in  your  esij.'  .Xni  1 
not  taking  jialieiice  ?      Will  1  be  lilesscd  by  man  us  I  lia\e  been  bv  Coil  .' 

I  .say  that,  I  have  been  ble.s.sed  by  Cod  and  1  hope  that  yoi;  will  not  take  that  .■;.^  a 
presumptuous  assertion.  It  has  been  a  great  success  forme  to  oiiiethi-ough  all  the  dan 
gers  I  liave  in  that  1")  year.s.  If  I  have  not  succeedeil  in  wc'aring  a  tine  eoat  myself  I 
liave  at  the  .same  time  tiie  grpat  consolation  of  .seeing+liat  (iod  lias  maintained  my  views  ; 
that  he  has  inaintainetl  mj-  Itleaith  sutticiently  to  go  tlirougli  tlie  World  and  that  he  lius 


1!9 


kept  Die  from  Iml'.ets  wlieii  liullets  iiuiikcd  my  hat.  I  am  lilfsswl  liy  Gcd.  It  is  this  trial 
tliat  is  Udim.'  ttn-vhciw  thiit  I  am  <;<>iii<,'  to  Ik-  Messed  Ky  man  dui'inj;  mv  existence,  the 
beiiiMliitious  are  a  ;.'uaiaiitee  that  1  was  not  wionjjed  when  Ky  eiixiuiistanee  I  was  takei^ 
away  tVoui  uiy  adopted  hind  to  my  nati\e  hind.  When  I  see  j'.iitish  people  sitting  in  the.' 
court  ro  ny  me,  lemenil.ei  ing  that  tlie  Kni.di>h  people  aie  preud  ot'  that  w^'id  '•  Fair  plav,' 
I  am  ei'ntident  that  J  will  he  Messed  l.y  (iod  ami  hy  man  aho.  Not  biilv  l!i^hop  Bourget 
spoke  to  me  in  tliat  way,  hut  Father  Jean-l;a).ti.>te  Itmiio,  the  priest  of  Worcester,  who 
was  my  director  of  conscience,  .said  to  me  :  "Kiel,  (o.d  has  put  an  oiTJect  into  vourhunds 
thecau-e  of  the  trium|>li  of  relifriou  in  the  world,  take  care,  you  -wi!!  succeed  when  most 
lu'lii'Ve.you  liave  lost.  '  I  have  got  those  words  in  my  head,  tliose  words  ol  J.  1!.  iJrunoand 
the  late  Ardd'islifip  llourget. 

I!ut  la-t  year,  while  1  was  yet  in  Montana,  while   I  wa.s   passing  helore  the  catholic 

church,  the  priest,  the  Hevd.    Fathei-   Fredeiick    t^heVide,    curate  of  the  church   of  the 

■    Immacuhite  C,om"ei)tionat  |{enton,said  to  me  •' I  am  glad  to  see  you,  isyour  fan:ily  heie '!' 

I  said  ye.s  ;  hesaid  "  (io  and    hring  them   to  the  altar,  I   want  to  hless  you  hetV.re  you  go 

away"'  and  with  (jahriel  I)umiPi:tand  my  family  we  all  went  on  our  kiVess  at  the  altar,  the 

priest  put  on  his  surplice  and  he  took  holy  waterand  \vas  going  to  hless  us.  I  >aid  w  illyou 

J    allow  miv  to  pronounce  a  prayer  while  you  hiess  me  ;  he  .-aid  yes,  1  want  to  kno\V  what  it 

'^  ' i.  1  told  him    the   prayer,  it    is  s]ieaking  to  God  "  i[y  father  hless  ni-e,1icc('rdiiig  to  tlu; 

■  vieWs  of  thy  Providence  wliich  are  heautitul  and  without  measure.  '  He  .said  to  me  :  "You 

'  can  -ay  that  ]>;ayei-  while  I  hless  ytai  "   Well  he  hlesstd  me.    I  prononced  that  prayer  for 

/    my~ilf,  for  my  children  and  for  (rahriel  I'umont.      Wlien  the  glorious  geniral  ^licldletoii 

j     tired  on  us  during  three  days  and  on  our  fandllcs  and  w  hi  n  sIk'Us  went  and  hulltts  went 

as  thick  as  moxpritoes  in  the  hot  day  <if  siiniiner,  when  1  saw   my  cliildren,  my  wife,  mv- 

1     .self  and  ( iahriel    Dumont    were  escai'ing,  1  said   that    nothing  hut    the  hiei-sing  witlaut 

I      iiiea.-.ure  of  Father  Frederick  Khex  ille ,  could  save  ine,  and  thut  can  .save  iiie  today_/r<  in 

I      these  charges.  The  hennliction  prondsed  to  me  .suiroui.did  lue  all  tlie  time  in  tlie  Sa.skat-. 

ichewan  and  since,  it  seems  to  me  that  I  luive  .seen  it.  C'apt  Deaue,  corporal  Prickart  antl 
tlie  corporals  of  the  guard  who  ha\e  heeii  ajipointed  over  me  have  heenjsO  gentle  while 
the  papers  were  raging  against  me  sluiw  tl:at  ni  thing  hut  the  lentdjctiiai  of  U<k1  could 
give  me  the  fav<Hii's  1  liaxr  had,  in  remaining  >fi  iisjectid  among  the.'e, li:en.     ' 

To-day,  w  heit  I  saw  the  liloiious  (icni  lal  Midil'etoii  1  eariiiir  te^tinu  i.y  tliat  lie  thought 
I  was  not  insane,  :i.nd  Captain  Young  pro\e  that  1  am  n>i  insi.ne,  L  feit  that  (iid  wasi 
hh'ssiui;'  iiic  and  hlotting  av.ay  fioiii  my  name  the  hlot  resting  upon  my  le]  utation  on 
account  of  havinv'  hefii  in  the  lunaiic  .isylum  of  uiv  good  friend  r)r  Roy.  Ihaxeheen 
in  an  asylum,  i>iit  I  thank  the  lawyer  for  the  Crown  who  destroyed  the  testimony  of  my 
fiiend  I'r  I'oy,  liecaiise  I  have  always  helievtd  that  1  was  put  in  the  asylum  wthout 
rea.-on,  tu-dav  my  pretention  is  guaranteed  and  that  is  a  hle-sing  tto  in  tlmt  way.  I  have 
also  hceii  in'the  lunatic  a.sylum  at  Loiigue-Pointe,  an<l  1  w'onder  that  my  friend'Pr 
Lachapelle  who  took  care  of  me  charitahly,  and  J>r  Howard  are  not  here.  I  was  there 
perhaps  under  my  ow  n  name.       _  -^ 

KveH  if  I  v.as<.'oing  to  he  sentenced  hy  you,  Cicntlemen  of  the  Jury,  I  liavethis  tatis- 


factioii    tliat   if   I 


I    will   not  he   reputed  hy  all   'nen  as   insane,  as    a   lunatic.      .\ 


good  deal  has  heen  said  hy  the  two  Ue\d  Fathers  Andre  and  Fourn:ond.  I  cannot  call 
them  my  friemls,  l.ut  they  made  no  false  testimony,  1  know  that  a  long  time  ago  tliey  he- 
lit^ved  me  more  or  hss  insane.  Father  Fourmond  said  that  1  woiildpass  ticui  a  great  pas- 
sion to  great  laiiiMiess.  that  shows  L'reat  control  under  contradiction  and  actoiding  to  my 
opinion  and  with  the  help  of  (!od,  1  have  that  control. 

.Mr  Charles  Xolin  when  he  went  into  the  ho.v  did- not  say  that  he  was  .swdrn  with  iin-  in 
all  the  aliairs,  that  i  did  far  tfoni  taking  them  as  insiiiie  atji4rs  ;  he  was  in  thciii  under  the 
cos  er  of  an  oath  with  tour  of  us,  he  did  not  say  that  in  the  ho.x.  Mr  word  is  perhaps  not 
lestinoiiv  hut  if  he  was  asked  in  the  ho.v  to  say  if  there  was  an  oath  taken,  he  couhl  ni^ 
(hiiv  it  and  he  Would  have  to  name  the  four  men  and  would  have  to  name  himself 

When  he  speaks  of   resii;iiing  a  contract  in  my   favoi',     1     did  not  ask  it,  the  tJoveiii- 
meht  Would  not  give  it  to  me,  hesides  he  w  as  engai;nl  in  a  moveii'.eiit  again=t  the  <  !o\ 
meiit.anii  to  take  a  contract  froTn  the  iJoverninent  was  certainly  a  weakness  upon  his  pa 


150      • 

ji'id  I  tolil  him  not  to  coiiiproniise  Iiis  cause,  and  I  told  him  to  withdraw  insti.'ad  of  ^o'l'^' 
.•i'ii>ad  till  we  ^4■lw  it'  wo  wt^ve  ;j;oinj,'  to  l)c  listened  to  at  ail.  ]{e  wanterl  me  to  nialce  a 
li  i!-i.'ain  and  to  renounce  my  anierican  citizeiisiiij).  I  told  him  that  it  was  a  mattir  of  more 
stre;i-4th  tint  P  sluiuld  he  an  anierican  citizen,  not  that  I  want  to  make  any  yionnd  of  it, 
hut  as  it  took  place  naturally  and  as  the  fact  existed,  I  wanted  to  take  advantau'c  of  it  as 
ss'aeli.  I  told'liim  it  is  of  advaiitage  for  you  that  you  should  Jiave  me  an  american  citizi'ii. 
I  have  no  t>ir<^:iin  fto  make  wtith  you  ahout  my  american  papers,  no  harj^ain  on  such  a 
-matter  as  that.  Mr.  Charles  Nolin  s])eaks  of  iny  own  amiiition,  and  other  witnesses  also. 
There  are  men  ambni;  the  prisom-rs  wJk)  know  that  last  yetir  Mr  Renez  and  ?ilr  •Joseph 
For.Ltet  came  to  tint  Saskatchewan  and  y»i<l  I  could  hive  a  pjaee  in  the  ( Vuuii'il  if  I  wanted 
it.  and  that  it  w:<s  a  i;  lod  chance  for  the  lialf  lireeds  of  the  Saskatchewan.  If  I  hid 
i)pen  so  anxious  fur  pi-ition  I  would  have  ;;^ias|>eil  at  this  place  ;  liut  I  did  not.  and 
Mr.  Noiin  has  soiue  knowledge  of  .that.  I  speak  of  those  tliiii;.'s  to  defend  my  elmiMcler 
as  it  h.is  lieen  saidj  that   I  am  egotistical 

The  a^'itatio|i  in  the  Xorth-We-t  Tciritories  w.iuld  have  heen  constitutional  and 
would  certainlv  hi-|constitatio(ial  to-day, if  in  my  opinion  we  had  not  heen  nttai  ke.l.  I'erhaps 
the  Crown  has  not  heeik  ahleito  find  out  tin-  p.irticulais  that  we  were  attack. 'd.  hut  as  we. 
were  on  the  .sc+'nej  it  .was  eisy  to  understand  AVhen  we  send  petitions  to  the  (iovern- 
iiieiit,  they  used  ti)  answer  u.f  l.y  sendii*!!^  jioli.-e,  aiirl  when  the  rumors  v.cre  increasinj;  | 
every  da\*  tiiat  Kiel  li:id  hcei^  shtit  liere.or  tliere,  or  that  lliel  was  ,i;'oin>,'  to  he  shot  hy  i 
.such  and   such  a  inaii,  the  jihlice  would  not  ]f\y  any  attention  1o  it.     1  iim  irlad  that  I 


t  >  tne   witnc-s.ses 


I 


lie  jiblice  w 
ice.  Iliecau.s 


hive  mcntio'iefl   the  jiol 

duriin;  the  exauiijiation  of   niany  of  the  witnessivs.      If  Iharl  liefejl  allowed  to  put  ijuestions 


lUld    I 


of  t!ie  te-!tiii>ony  tliat   l^as  heen  ;.'iven   in   tlw  Imx    \ 
hf  \vifiit.«i.<        It'  rii:..l  liefejl  allowed  to  put  ijUestions    ' 
I  .saiil  a  siii;;le  w.ird  against  a   j 
.single  p  diceman  or  a  jingle  «)!iicer.   I  have  respected  the  |)olicemen  and  I  do  today,   and' 
I   h.ive  resjie.'ted   the  oliiiei^  of  the  police;  the  ])a))er  that  f  sent  to  Majoi-  Cro/ier  is  a 
proof  of  it  :   "We  resjiect   yciii   Major."     Thei-e  are  papers  which   tlie  Crown   ha-,  in   its 
lianils  and  wiiicii  show  that  (lemoralis  itioii   exi.sts  among  the  Poliie,  if  yoii  v.  ill  allow   me 
t'>  say  it  in  tiie  (  ii'irt-e-s  I  have  s.iicl  it  in  writing.  • 

Your  Honors,  'ientlemen  of  the. fury:  If  I  was  a  man  of  to-day  ]ierli(ps  it  would  he 
■presuinfituoiis  to  speak  iii  that  way,  hut  the  truth  is  good  to  say,  and  it  is  said  in  a 
proper  manner,  and  it  i.s  jnot  without  presum])'ioii,  it  is  not  hecause  I  have  heen 
lioeiled  for  1  .T  vears  that  1 1  do  not  l)elie\e  myself  something.  1  know  thal|  through  the 
grace  of  (fod  I  am  the  founder  of  Manitoha  ;  I  know  that. though  [  have  no  open  road  for 
my  iiiiluenie,  I  have  hig  intluence  concentrated,  as  a  hig  ainftunl  of  vapour  in  an 
engine..  I  helieve  hy  what  I  sutiered  for  lo  year.s,  liy  what  1  haie  tlcjiie  for  Manitoha 
and  the  peojilf  of  the  Nortli-Weit  that  my  words  are  worth  something,  if  I  give  oHeiice  I 
do  not  speak  tfi  insult.  Vfts,  3'ou  are  the  )jionecrs  of  civilization,  the  Whites  are  the 
pioneers  of  civilization,  hut  they  Tiring  among  the  Indians  demoralization.  Do  iiot  he 
ortend' d  ladies,  (I  >  not  he  offended  Here  are  the  men  that  can  cure  that  e\il.  and  if  at 
till!  'S  I  h  ive  l»-en  strong  against  my  true  friends  and  Fathers,  the  ]{everend  Priests  of 
the  S.isk itchewAii,  if  is  hecause  my  convictions  are  sti-ong.  There  have  heen  witnesses 
to  show  tliat  innnriliately  after  great  jiatiencc;  \  could  come  hack  to  tin-  resjiect  I  have 
for  them. 

Onerif  the  witnesses  here,  (ieorge  Ne.ss,  T  think,  .said  that  T  spoki-  of  .\rchhishop 
Ticin'  and  tohl  him  that  he  was  a  thief.  If  I  had  had  the  op|iortunirv  I  pr^i|ii>.-^e  1  I 
WDuId  h  ivi-  •piestioned  hii)i  as  to  what  I  said  so  that  you  would  underst.md  nie.  1  have 
known  Archlii-hoji  'I'.iehe  as  a  great  henef.ietor,  i  have  se'-ir  him  surroumled  'iv  his  gi'eal 
];r)j)erly,  the  ])roperty  of  a  witlovv  whose  road  vfas  passing  near,  he  hought  the  land 
around  and  tiok  th  it  way  to  try  and  get  her  jiroperty  at  a  cheap  ]irice  ]  read  in  the 
(i  )>pel  :  ••  Ye  Pharisees  with  your  long  prayers  devour  the  widows."  .\nd  as  .Xchhishoji 
Ta'he  is  my  great  henefactor,  as  he  is  my  father  I  would  say  liecause  he  has  done  ne'  an 
immense  deal  of  good,  and  hecause  there  w  as  no  one  who  had  the  cimrage  to  tell  him,  I 
did,  hecause  I  love  him,  hecause  I  acknowledge  all  he  has  done  for  me.  As  to  Hishop 
firandin,  it_w<',s  on  the  saiiie  grounds.  I  have  other  instances  of  liishop  Tache,  and  the 
witness  could  have  said  as  the  lievd  Father  Moulin  :     "  When  you  speak  of  such  jiersons 


151 


as  Aroliliishop  Tac-hi'  you  ouij;ht  to  say  lieniado  a  niisttike  not  tliat  lie  coniinitted  robbery.'* 
I  say  tliat  we  Imve  l)eeu  patient  a  lonj;  time  and  when  we  see  tluvt  inikl  words  onlv  serve 
as  covers  for^jreat  fmes  to  do  wroiis;,  it  is  time  when  we  are  Jiistitied  in  sayinj;  that  rotiVierj' 
is  rol)l)erv  everywliere  an<l  the  jjuilty  ones  are  hound  liy  the  force  of  puhlie  opinion  to 
take  notice  of  it.  Tlie  one  wlio  has  tlie  uouraj^e  to  speak  out  in  tliat  way  instead  of 
heinf,'  an  outratfeous  man  heconies  in  fac-t  a  benefactor  to  tliose  men  tliemselves  and  to 
society.  .  .  , 

Wlien  we  t^ot  to  tlio  cluircli  of  St  Antoine  on  the  iJ^th,  tliere  was  a  witness  who 
said,  I  think  t!eori;e  Xess,  that  1  saiff  to  Fatlier  Moulin  "You  are  a  Protestant  Accor- 
ding; to  my  theory  I  was  not  jroiiij;  to  speak  in  that  way,  but  1  said  that  we  were  protes- 
tint;  Hfjainst  the  Canadian  (iovernmeiit  and  that  he  was  protesting  against  us,  and  that 
we  ,\V(M'0  two  ])rf>testants  in  our  ditlVreiit  ways. 

.\h  to  religion  what  is  my  belief  .'  Wiiat  is  my  insanity  about  that  !  ^Fy  insajiit\-, 
Tour  Honors,  (ientlemen  of  the  Jury,  is  that  I  wish  to  leave  Rome  aside  inasmuch  as  it 
is  the  cause  of  division  between  the  ('atlinlii's  and  Protestants.  I  did  not  wish  to  force  mv. 
views  because,  in  Batoche,  to  the  Half-breeds  that  followed  me  I  u.sed  the  word  Curh' 
hlfnii)i>\  If  I  have  any  iiitluence  in  the  New  World  it  is  to  help  in  that  way  and  even  if 
\\  takes  two  hundred  years  to  bi'come  practical,  thiMi  after  my  death  that  will  lirini;  out 
Jjatical  results,  and  then  my  children  will  shake  hands  with  the  Protestants  of  the  Xew 
^'orld  in  a  friendly  manner.  I  do  not  wish  those  e\ils  which  e.xist  in  Kurope  to  be  con- 
tinued as  much  as  I  can  inHueiice  it,  among  the  Half  breeds.  1  do  not  wisli  that  to  Jie 
repealed  in  America,  that  work  is  not  the  work  of  some  days  ov  .some  years  it  is  the 
work  of  hundreds  of  years.  '  i 

My  condition  is    helpless,  so   helpless   that    my  good  lawyers  and  they   have  done   it 
with  coiivicti(Ui   {.Mr.  Kitzpatrick   in  his  lieautiful  speech   has  proved   he  believed  I  was 
linsane),   nvv  condition    seems  to  be  so 'helpless  tliat  they  lia\e  recourse  to  try  and   |>rove 
'insanity  to  try  and  save  me  that  way.      If  I  am  insane,  of  course  I  don't  know  it.  it   is  a 
)|iroperly  of  insanity  to  l>c  unabh;  to  know  it.      Hut  wliat  is   the  kind   of  mission  that   1 
,1liavc?   Piactiial  results.      It  is   said   that    I   had   myself  acknowledged  as  a  prophet   by 
\    the  Half-breed-i.      The  Half-lire.-ds  have  some  intidliijence.    ('apt.  Younir  who  has  lieen  so 
jxilite  and  gent  U- duiinu' tlie  time  ]  was  under  his  care,  saiil  that  what  was  done  at  liatoche 
from  a   military   p<iiiit    of  \  iew  was  nice,  that  the  line  of  defence  was  nice,  that_ showed 
some  intelli;;ence.      It  is  not  to  be  sujiposed  that   the    Half-brceils  acknowledge  me  as  a 
Jirophet  if  they  had  not  seen  that  1  could  see  something  into  the  future.     1/  1  aiii  blessed 
without  measure  I  can  see  souiething  into  the  futur.-,  we  all  see  into  the  future  more  or 
le-,s.    As  wliat  kind  of  a  projihet  would  1  come  ?    W.puld  it  be  a  jirophet  who  could  all  the 
time  have  a  stick  in  his  hand  and  threatening,  a  pro|iliet  of  evil  ?  if  the  Half-breeds  have 
acknowledged  me  as  a  prophet, if  on  the  other  side  priests  come  and  say  that  I  am  polite,  if 
there  are general  otlicers,  goo<l  men,  come  into  this  lio.x  and  pi-ove  that  I  am  jiolite,  pro^e 
that  I  am  decent  in  my  manners,  in  conbining  all   together  you   have  a  decent   [irophet, 
An  insane  man  cannot  withhold  his  insanity,  if  1  am  insani'  my  heart  w  ill  tell  what  is  in 
me.    I>ast    niitlit    w  liile    1    was   taking    exercise  the  spirit    who   u'uides  and  assists  me  and 
consoles  me  told  niethat  tomorrow  somebody  will  come  '•t'aider,  '  and  help  me      1  am  con- 
soled by  that.  While  I  was  lecurring  to  my  (!od,  to  ( >ur  tiod,  I  said:  P>ut  wi.e  to  me  if  you 
Hot  help  me,  and  tliose  wurds  came  to  me  in  the  morning  :  "In  the  morning  some  one  will 
coicie  i'ltiih-,-,  that  is  to-day   '     I  said  that  to  my  two  guards  and   you  can  go  for  the  two 
i.%ards     I  tolil  them  that  if  the  spirit   that   directs   ir,e  is  the  spirit  of  truth  it  is  to-day 
that  T  e\pe<  t  lielp.      Thi^  iiioining  the  good  doctor  who  has  care  of  me  came  to  me  and 
.said  ;  '•  Von  will  s]ieak  to  day  before  the  Court,"  I  thoULtht  1  wimld  not  be  allowed  to  speak, 
those  words  were  given  to  me  to  tell   me  that  I  '■  ould  ha\e  the  liberty  to  s]«eak     There 
'  was  one  French  word  in  it,  it  meant,  I  believe,  that  there  was  to  be  some  trench  iiiHuelice 
in  it.  lait  the  most  part    English.    It  is  true  that  my  good   lawyers  from   the  province  of 
K   Quebec  have  given  me  good  advice. 

Mr.  Noliii  cane  into  the  bo.v  and  said  tliat  Mr.  Kiel  sai<l  that  he  heard  a  noise  in 
his  bowels  and  that  I  told  him  that  it  meant  something.  I  wish  that  he  had  said  what  I 
.said,  what  I  wrote  on  the  paper  of  wliicli  he  speaks,  perhaps  he  can  yet  be  put  in  theViox. 


152 


I  said  to  Noliii  "Do  you  Iicar  ?  "  ■  Yes,  I  said  tliere  will  l)e  troulile  in  the  North-West 
and  wfts  it  so  or  not,  Iihs  iliere  heen  no  troul)le  in  the  Nortli-West  ?  Hesides  Nolin  knows 
that  aniong  his  nationality  which  is  mine,  lie  knows  that  the  Ilalf-lireeds  as  hunters  can 
foi-etell  many  thinf^s,  peihaps  some  of  you  have  a  special  kno\vled;<e  of  it.  I  have  seen 
Half-l)reeils  who  say  :  "my  liand  is  shakin.i,',  this  j.iirt  of  my  hand  is  shakinif,  you  will  see 
such  a  tliinsf  to-day,"  and  it  happens.  Otheis  will  say  "  I  feel  the  flesh  of  my  \cii  movo 
in  such  a  way,  it  is  a  siitn  of  such  a  tliin>;,''  and  it  happens  They  are  men  who  know  that 
I  speak  riyht.  If  the  witness  sjioke  of  that  fact  with  which  he  mentioned  to  show  that  I 
was  insane  lie  did  not  leiiiemlier  that  pciliaps  on  that  point  he  is  in.sane  hiiiisclf,  l.ecau.se 
the  Ilalf-Kreed  hy  the  movement  of  his  hand,  .sometimes  of  his  shoulders,  sometimes  his 
leg,.ciUi  liave  certain  knowledj;e  of  what  will  happen.  To  hrinj,'  Sir  John  to  my  feet,  if 
it  was  well  reported  it  woidd  appear  far  more  reasonable  than  it  has  heen  made  to  apiiear. 
Mr.  J'laki',  the  li-ailir  of  the  Dppo^ition,  is  tryiu.^-  to  brin^  Sir  John  to  his  feet  in  one  way. 
He  never  had  as  much  at  t^taki>  as  I  had,  althoui,'li  tlie  |)rovince  of  Ontario  is  f;reat  it 
js  not  as  fireat  as  the  Xortli-West. 

I  am  ju'lad  that  tliethown  have  jiroved  tliat  I  am  the  leader  of  the  Half  Uii'eds  in  the 
North-West.    I  will  ]ierlia)is  lie  one  day  acknowledj^ed  as  more  than  a  lea<ler  of  the  Ifalf- 
lireeds,  and  if  I  am  I  will  have  an  opportunity  of  liein.!.^    ackuowledj^ed  as  a  leader  of  <.;ood 
-in  tliis  i;reat  eiuiitry. 

One  of. tin;  witnes.ses  said  that  I  intended  to  i;ive  X^])per  Canada  to  tlie  Iiish,  if  Ke 
hfid  no  mystery  he  would  have  seen  that  Upper  Canada  could  not  lie  ;^iven  to  the  Irilli 
without  lieinj;  {.'ivx-n  to  Kniiland,  he  ri'sted  only  upon  his  ima^iiiatiou. 

Tliere  is  anotiier  thiiii;  aliout  the  j>'artition  of  the  lands  into  seven.  I  do  iifit  know  i|" 
I  am  prepared  to  speak  of  it  here  because  it  would  become  j)ublic  information,  tliere  is  up 
much  at  stsike  that  if  I  e.vplained  that  theory  Canada  would  not  very  lon^  remai^ 
Iquiet.  |- 

Capt  Deane  lias  Seen  my  pajiers,  I  have  sent  them  somewhen^  but  he  has  seen  thani^ 
and  after  seeing;  them  he  eaiiie  tliere  aufl  said  that  I  was  an  iiitellii;ent  man  and  preltyi 
shrewd.  I  have  written  tlhe.se  documents  and  they  are  in  the  liaiids  of  those  whoiii  Cj 
trust.  I  do  not  want  to  make  them  ]iublic\,duriiif;  my  trial  what  I  have  not  made  public 
durin;;  tiU  day.s  we  were  in  arms  at  liatodu^,  there  have  been  theie  ditl'erent  times  when 
tlie  (_'ouncil  decided  to  .send  men  to  the  States  to  notify  the  nationalities  to  ciuiie  to  our 
assistance,  but  ^hree  dele;.';|itions  waited  tVil-  my  orders  and  have  not  started.  Why  ,'  J!ecau.se 
I  had  an  object.  The  Half-breedsahjiHciiow  that  I  told  them  that  I  would  lie  punished, 
that  I  did  not  say  it  of  my  own  res|)onsaliility  but  that  1  said  it  in  thi;  same  way  as  1  had 
told  tlieiii  other  thing's.  It  was  .said  to  me  th.at  the  nation  would  be  punished.  Why  •  ISecause 
she  had  consented  to  leave  Home  tooipiick.  What  is  the  meaninj;  of  that ,'  There  wms  a  dis- 
cussion about  it  tfxj  ijuick.  They  .sai<l  that  they  should  do  it  at  once.  Too  (|iiick  does 
not  mean  too  .soon.  If  we  .say  ye.s,  it  shows  no  consiihration  to  the  man.  If  (iod  wants 
sometliing  and, if  we  say  yes,  that  is  not  the  way  to  answer  Him,  he  wants  the  con.science 
to  say  yes  :  <  >h  my  (iod.  I  do  thy  will  ;  and  becau.se  the  Half-breeds  ipiickly  .separated  from 
Rome  in  such  a  cjuiek  manner  it*  was  disagreable  to  (iod  and  they  were  punished  and  1 
told  them  it  wmild  hajipeir,  lifty  rif  those  who  are  tliere  can  prove  it.  liut  you  will  .say  : 
"  ^  ou  did  not  put  j'ourself  asa  ])ropIiet  '.  The  nineteenth  centurj'  is  to  be  treated  in  certain 
ways  and  it  is  probably  for  that  rea-oii  1  have  found  the  word  "Kxovedt^'.  1  prefer  to  lie 
called  one  of  the  Hoik.  I  am  no  mure  than  you  are,  I  am  simply  one  of  the  tlock,  e.|Ual  to 
the  rest.  If  it  is  any  satisfaction  to  the  doctor  to  know  what  kiiul  of  insanity  1  have, 
if  they  are  goijig  to  call  my  jiretentions  insanity,  I  .say,  humbly,  through  the  grace  of 
God  I  believe  I  am  the  prophet  of  the  New  World. 

I  wish  yon  to  believe  that  I  am  jiot  trying  to  play  insanity,  there  is  in  the  manner,  in 
the  standing  of  a  man,  the  proof  that  he  is  sincere,  not  playing.  You  will  say,  what 
have  you  got  to  say  (  I  ha\^  to  attend  to  ju-actical  results.  Is  it  practical  that  you  be 
acknowledged  as  a  prophet  /  Is  it  practical  to  say  it.  I  think  if  the  Half-breeds 
have  ackiioledged  me,  as  a  community,  to  be  a  prophet.  I  have  reason  to  believe  that  it 
is  beginning  to  become  practical.  I  do  not  wish  for  iiiy  satisfaction  the  name  of  prophet. 
Generally  that  title  is  ac({oinpaiiied  which  sucli  a  burden,  that  if  tliiie  is  satisfaction  for 


153 


your  vanity  thero  is  a  dieck  to  it.  To  set  myself  up  as  Pope  !  Xo,  no  I  I  said  I  >ielieve<l 
that  Bishop  liourget  had  sucofeded  tiie  Pope  in  spirit  and  in  trutli.  Whv  ]  Hecauso 
while   Rome  did  not  pay  attention  to  us,  he  as  a  liishop  paid  attention  to  us. 

You  have  f^iven  me  your  attention,  Your  Honors,  you  liave  <;iven  me  vour 
attention  (Jentlenien  of  the  Jury,  and  this  j^-eat  audience,  I  see  if  I  >:o  anv  further 
on  that  ])oint  1  will,  loose  the  favour  you  have  granted  me  up  to  tliis  time,  and 
as  I  am  aiming  all  the  time  at  practical  results,  I  will  stop  here,  ina.ster  of  myself, 
through  the  help  of  (JcmI.  I  have  finly  a  few  more  words  to  .say,  your  Honors, 
(ientlemen  of  the  Jury,  my  rei)utatif>n,  niy  liherty,  my  life  are  at  your  discretion,  so  con- 
fident I  am  that  I  have  not  the  sligJitest  anxiety,  not  eyen  the  slightest  douht  as  to  yciur 
verdict.  Tli<  otilmness  of  my  mind  concerning  the  favourable  decision  which  I  ex]>ect 
does  not  come  from  any  unjustitialile  pres\niiption  upon  my  puit.  I  simplv  trust  t'lat 
througli  ( Idd's  lifl])  you  will  lialanci'  every  tliiui;  iu  a  consciencious  manner  an<l  that  alter 
lia'ving  heard  wliat  I  had  to  say,  that  you  will  aci|uit  me.  Itio  respect  you  althoiigli 
}(Mi  are  only  Irilf  a  jury,  l)Ut  yf)ur  numtier  of  six  does  not  pri^vent  you  froni  heing  iu^t 
an<l  consi-ieniious,  yiiur  nund)er  of  si.x  does  not  pre\t?nt  me  gi\  ing  you  niv  contidence 
which  I  woulil  >;r.int  to  another  six  also. 

Your  llonur,  liecause  you  appointed  those  men  do  not  lielieve  tliat  Idisresje't  you.  it 
is  not  liy  your  own  choice,  you  were  authorized  liv  those  above  you,  hy  the  aii'.horities 
in  the  Noith-West,  you  have  acted  accortling  to  y<iur  duty,  and  while  it  is  in  our  view, 
apSiinst  the  guarantees  of  lilierty,  I  trust  tlie  Providence  of  (Jod  will  l>ring  out  good  of 
v/hat  you  have  dontf  conscientiously. 

I        Althfiugh  this'court  has  heen  in  existence  for   the  last  1-3  years,  I  thought   I   had  a 

right  to  lie  tried  in  another  court.  [  do  not  disrespect  this  court,  I  do  respect  it,  and  wlat 

iU  callfd  liy  my  learncil  and   yood    lawyt-is    the    inc(^m|ietency   of  the   couit,  must  not  lie 

called  in  disrespect,  hecau.se  1  iia\e  all  le.sjiect. 

(  j         The  only  things  I  would  like  to  call  your  attention  to,  hefore  you  retire  to  delilierate, 

\Vre  :    1st.  That   the   House   of   Commons,   Senate,    and   uiinisters  of   the    l)ondnion  wlii> 

iJinake  laws  for  this  land  and   govern   it   are   no  representation  whatever'  of  the  jieopU-  of 

J  the  North-West 

2ndly.  Tiiat  the  Xorth-W  est  Council  generated  hy  the  federal  tiovcrnment  has  the 
great  defect  of  its  ]>arent. 

.'Irdly.  Til.'  nuudier  of  mendiers  elected  for  the  Council  hy  the  people  make  it  only  a 
sham  representative  le;;islature  and  no  representative  (lovernment  at  ail. 

liritish  civilisation,  which  rules  to  day  the  world,  and  the  l!ritish  constitution  has 
delined  such  ( •overinnent  as  this  is  which  rules  the  North  West  Territory  as  irrespon- 
silile  <  iovernnu-nt,  whicli  plainly  means  that  there  is  no  responsilility,  and  l>y  the  science 
which  has  heen  shown  here  yesteiday  your  are  compelled  to  admit  it,  there  is  mt  respon- 
sibility, it  is  in.sane. 

(lood^ense  coud)ined  with  scieiitilic  theories  lead  to  the  .sanu'  conclusion. 

liy  the  testimony  laiil  Ijt^fore  you  during  my  trial,  witnesses  en  Ixith  sides  made  it 
certain  that  petition  after  petit^^n  has  been  sent  to  the  Federal  (iovernment,  and  so 
irresponsible  is  that,  (Jovernment  to  tiie  North- West,  that  in  the  course  of  several 
years  beside  doing  nothing  to  satisfy  the  people  uf  this  great  land,  it  has  even  hanlly  been 
able  to  answer  oni'c  or  to  give  a  sinj;le  resptinse  That  fact  would  indicate  alisolute  lack 
^of  res|ionsibilitv  and  therefore  insanity  complicated  with  paralysis. 

The  ministers  of  an  insane  and  irresponsible  (iovernment  and  i<s  little  one  the  Ninth-' 
West  Council  made  up  their  mind  to  answer  my  petitions  by  surrounding  nie  slyly  and 
by  attempting  to  jump  upon  nie  suddently  and  upon  my  people  iu  the  Saskatchewan. 
['Happily  when  they  ajijieared  anil  showed  their,  teetli  to  devour,  I  was  ready  ;  tliat  is 
iwhat  is  called  my  crime  of  high  treason  and  for  which  they  hold  me  to  day.  ( )h,  my 
good  Jurors,  in  the  nauie  of  Jesus  CHtrist  tlie  only  one  who  can  .save  and  lielp  me,  tliey 
have  tried  to  tear  me  t(j  pieces. 

If  you  take  the  plea  of  the  defence,  th.at  1  am  not  responsiI)le  for  my  acts,  acijuit  me 

completely,  since  I  have  been  ipiarrelling  with  an  insane  and   irresponsible  (iovernment. 

ou  pronounce  in  favour  of  the  Crown,  which  contends  that  I  am  responsible,  accjuit 


154         , 

>ini  all  the  sanje  You  are  i)erfectly  justified  in  declaring;  tliat  haviiip;  my  reason  and 
souiiil  mind  1  liavi;  acted  rea.sonaT)ly  and  in  self-defence,  while  the  Government,  my 
accuser,  heinj^  invsponsihle  and  consoijuently  insane,  cannot  liut  have  acted  wron^,  and 
if  liigli  treason  tliere  is,  it  liiust  ))e  on  its  side  and  not  on  my  part. 

His  IIokAr. — Are  you  <lone? 

PiiisoxKR. — Xot  yet,  if  you  liave  tlie  kindness  to  permit  your  attention  for  a  while. 

His  Hoxoh. — Well,  ])roeeed.     t  .        "  ■ 

PliisoSElji. — For  tiftwn  yevrs  [  liave  ln'cn  nej^lectiu,'  myself,  even  one  of  the  most 
hard  witnesses  on  me  saif)  til  it  with  all  my  vanity  1  never  was  particular  as  to  my 
clothin'i  ;  yes,!  l)ecaus<3  I  liever  liad  much  to  Ijuy  any  clotliin|:(.  The  reverend  Kutlui- 
Andiv.  has  often  had  thej kindness  to  feed  my  family  with  a  sack  of  tlour  and  Father 
Fourmond  ;  niy  wife  aiKJ  children  are  without  means,  wliile  1  a<n  working;  more  th^m 
any  representati\e  in  tliti  North-West  \Jtli(iu;,di  1  am  simply  a  guest  of  this  country,  a 
f^uest  of  the  llalf-Iireetis  (i)f  tlie  .Saskaldibv^""-  Althou,i,di  as  ii  simple  i;UMst  1  work  ^o 
lietttr  till-  condition  of  ^hc  jieople  of  the  Saskatchewan,  at  the  risk  of  my  life,  to  Ix-tter 
condition-of  the  jMojile  of  the  North-West,  I  have  never  had  any  pay.  It  has  always  Keen 
my  liojieto  hale  a  fair  li\  tii!,'one  di.y.  It  will  he  for  you  to  jiKinounce.  ]f  you  say  I  was  ri'.'ht, 
yon  I  an  conscientioiisly  acijuit  ine,  a.s  I  lin]ie  tlirou;;h  tile  lielp  of  (iod,  y<ai  will.  \<Hi 
will  console  those  who  li^\c  lieen  fiftcMni  years  around  me,  only  ]iaitakin.;,'  in  my  sntlVr- 
injft  :  what  you  v.  ill  do  ii  justice  to  me,  in  justice  to  my  family,  in  |i!-.tiri'  to  my  fiicnds. 
in  justici'  to  the  North-\^'est,  will  lie  rendered  a  huii(lied  tim(>  to  you  in  this  worlq, 
and  to  u.se  a  sacred  e.\iiri|-ssion,  life  everhistiiiL;  in  the  ether.  ., 

I  thank  your  Honors  for  the  favour  you  liave  LTianted  me  in  s]ieakinLr,  1  thank  ymi  tqr 
the  attention  vou  have  yiven  me,  (jentleiijen  of  the  .Jury,  anil  [  thank  those  who  lia\e  hiul 
the  kiiiilness  to  encourage  my  imperfect  way  of  speaking  the  Kiiglish  language  li^ 
their  good  att^'iithon.  I  jait my  speech  under  the  jirotection  of  my  t!od,  my  Saviour,  lit\ 
is  the  only  one  who  can  iiiake  it  effective,  it  is  possible  it  should  hecome  eti'cctive  as  ifi 
is  proposed  to  good  men,  to  good  peojile,  and  tf>  good  lailies  also  1 

iffi 


ilr.  liohinson   for   tiie   prosecution  addresses  the  jury  and 
Judge  deliscis  his  charge. 


On  the  jury  returning,  afle 
the  Court   asked  :   (jentlebiien,  are 
prisoner  guiltf-  or  not  guilty  '! 


I    The  jury  iiiid  tlie  pr 
I     (Tlekk.  — Oeiitleiiien 


iim  the  presicliiig 


I 


li.a\-ing  retired  to  consider  their  verdict,    the  clerk  of 
yoii  ai^reed   upon  your  verdict  i   jlow  .say  you?   Is  the 


•  prisoner  guilty. 


of  the  Jury,  liearken  to  your  verdict,  as  the   Court  records  it 


You  find  t!ie  ju-isoner,  Louis  Kiel,  guilty,  so  say  you  all. 

The  Jury  answered ':  (Juilty.  ■        '      •  •  /'  ^ ' 

A  JL'ROK.--Your    Honor,    1   have  lieen   asked  by   my    brother-jurors  to  nM^omiuend 
the  prisonei'  ti  the  mercy  iii  the  Crown. 

AI^.  Jt'STiCE  RirinHDSON. — I  may  say  in  answer  to  you  that  the  recoinniendation 

which  you  have  given  wtjl  be  forwarded  in  proper  manner  to  the  proper  authorities.  I 

'  i  ■' 

3[r.  ItOB|ysox, — Doc  Your  Honors  propose  to  pass  sentence  now.  I  believe  the  proper 
course  is  ttp  asjk  the  .sentej^ee  of  tlie  Court  ujiou  the  prisoner. 

iMr.  JfsTK'E  Ricil.vitDSON. — Louis  Kiel,  have  you  anything  to  say  wlij-  the  sentenctl 
of  tliH  Ci)urt  .sliould  not  b  ;  pronounced  upon  you,  for  the  otl'ence  of  which  you  have  l>eei] 
found  guilty.  j 

PKisoxEii. — Yes,  Yiur  Honor. 

Mr.  FiTZp.^TBiCK. — before  the  accused- answ;ers  or  mak6s  any  remarks  as  suggeste 


155 


l>_v  Your  IToiior,  I  would  lieg  leave  simply  to  ask  Your  Honor  to  kindly  note  tlie  ol'jection 
which  [  have  already  taken  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Court. 

Mr.  Justice  Riciiakusox. — It  is -noted,  Mr  Fitzpatriek,   You  undcrstajid  of  course 
why  1  cannot  i-ule  upo)i  it.  .  (^ 

-M.  FiTZPATUlfK.  —  It  is  simply  so  as  to  reserse  any  recourse  the  law  may  allow  here- 
after. ..  "  . 

P'flsoNF.K. — Can  I  speak  now  ?  •  .    '  -     « 

Mr.  JisTlcK   RlcilAHI>sox.--(  )h  yes.  '  -        - 

pKlsoxKij. — Your  Honor,  pentlemen  of  t!ie  Jury.  ...  '     . 

Nir.  Justice  RiciiAROso.vS—Tlnrr  is  no  jury  now,  iliey  are  discharged.       * 

'rLsoseu.— Well,  they  have  pas.sfd  away  liefore  me.       ' 

'Mr.  JusTICK   HlOllAiiDHON  — Yes,  they  have  passed  away. 

'PilisoxEU. — Hut  at  the  same  time,  I  c.msiiler  them  yet  still  there,  still  in  their  seats. 
Tli'jf'ourt  has  done  the  work  for  me,  an<l  althout;h  at  first  appearance  it  seems  to  tie 
i;,'t/inst  me.  I  am  so  eonli.l-Mit  in  the  idi;a  which  I  have  hiul  the  honor  to  express  yesterday, 
tliajt  I  think  it  is  for  j^ood  and  not  for  my  loss.  Up  to  this  moment,  1  ha\e  'been  cbn- 
sidj'red  hy  a  <!ertain  ])arty  as  insane,  l>y  another  jwrty  as  a  criminal,  hy  another  party  as 
a  iKi  111  with  whom  it  was  dnu'itful  whether  to  havi-  any  intercourse.  So  there  was 
hoJtility  and  there  was  contempt,  and  there  was  avoidance  To-day,  hy  the  verdict  of  the 
Cojirt,  one  of  these  three  situations  has  disappeared. 

I  I  suppose  that  after  haviiij^  heen  condemned,.!  will  cease  to  he  called  a  fool,  and 
foil  me  it  is  a  ^'reat  advantaL'e.  I  consider  it  as  a  great  advantage.  If  1  have  a  mission,  I 
s»  J  "If"  for  the  sake  of  those  who  douht,  liut  for  my  part  it  iiieans  "  Since,  "  since  T 
lir  Ve  a  mission,  I  cannot  fullii  my  ndssion  as  long  as  I  am  looked  ujion  as  an  insane 
l"Unn,' — human  heing,  at  the  moment  that  I  l>e;;in  to  ascend  that  scale,  I  Wei.'in  to  succeed. 
I  \  ou  have  asked  nie,  ^  our  Honor,  if  [  li  id  aiiythiiii,'  to  say  why  my  seiitenee  should 
n  >l  lie  pas.-ied.  Yes,  it  is  on  that  point  particillarlv  my  attention  is  directed.  Refore  sayinu 
a  lything  aliout  it,  I  wish  to  take  notice  that  ii'  there  has  e\ cr  lit'cn  any  contradiction  in 
n  ly  life,- it  is  at  this  moment,  and  do  I  a]>pear  e.xcited  ?  Am  I  verv  irritable  ?  Can  I 
c  iiitrol  my.self .'  Aiul  it  i.s  just  on  religion  and  on  politics,  and  I  am  contradicted 
!i  t  this  moment  on  iiolilics,  and  the  smile  that  comes  to  my  face  is  not  an  act 
my  will,  so  much  it  comes  naturally,  from  the  satisfaction  that  I  prove  that 
[■experience  seeing  one  of  niy  dithculties  di.sajipearing.  Should  1  he  executed,  at  least  if 
l|  were  going  to  lie  executed,  I  would  not  he  executed  as  an  insane  man,  it  would  he  a 
•eat  consolation  for  my  mother,  for  my  wife,  for  my  children,  for  my  brothers,  for  niv 
rMpiiti\es,  e\en  for  my  protectors,  foi'  my  countrymen.  1  thank  the  gentlemen  who  were. 
c»'|ii])Osing  the  Jury  foi-  lia\iiig  recommended  me  to  the  clemency  of  the  Court.  When  I 
el'.press  the  great  hopi'  tiiat  I  have  just  expressed  to  you,*^don't  express  it  without 
•oiind,  njy  hopes  are  reasonable,  and  since  they  are  recommended,  since  the  recomniend- 
ion  of  the.luivfo  the  Crown  is  for  cleniency.  It  would  be  easy  for  me,  your  Honors,  to 
ike  an  incendiary  pintest,  and  take  the  three  reasons  which  have  been  rea.sonably  put 
[irwaiil  by  my  good  lawyers  and  learned  lawyers,  about  the  Juiy,  about  their  selection, 
liout  the  one  who  selected  them,  and  about  the  com]>etency  of  the  Court,  but  why  should 
do  it,  since  the  Court  has  undertaken  to  prove  th.at  I  am  a  rea.soiialdc  man  !  Must  not 
[take  advantage  of  the  sitdation  to  show  that  they  are  right  and  that  I  am  reasoiia>ile, 
[id  yesterday,  when  I  said  by  rejieating  the  pvideiice  which  has  been  given  against  me, 
leii  I  said  ill  coiicliisioii  that  you  had  a  decent  prophet,  I  have  ju.st  to-day  tlie,-great 
.'|..irtunity  of  pro\  ing  it  is  so,  besides  clearing  me  of  the  stain'of  insanity,  clearing  my 
.11  er  of  the  stain  of  insanity.  I  think  the  verdict  that  has  been  given  against  me  is  a 
•i.nf  that  I  am  more,  than  ordinary  myself,  but  that  the  circunistanues  and  the  lulii  that 
given  is  more  tlian  ordinary,  are  more  than  ordinary,  and  although  I  consider  luy.selt" 
Iv  as  others,  yet  by  the  will  of  Ciod,  by  his  Providence,  by  the  circumstance^  which  hfva 


154 


«ni;  iill  .tlip  saiiiP       You  aro  )>t>j^ectly  justified   in   (leclariiii,'  tliit   haviiif,'  my   reason  and 

sound    mind  i  liavi;  acted    re:Sonal)ly   and   in  self-defence,   wliile  the  Government,  my 

accuser,  lieinj;  invsponsilile  and  consei|uently  insane,  cannot  Init  liave   acted  wronj,',  and 
if  liigli  treason. there  is,  it  must  be  on  its  side  and  not  on  my  part. 

ill.sUoxoH. — Are  you  done? 

PrI80NK|{.— Not  yet,  if  you  liave  the  kindness  to  iM-niiit  your  attention   for  a  wliihi. 

His  IIonou.— Well,  prrtceed. 

PuisoXKU. — For  fifteen  ye  irs  I  have  lifen  nej^lectini;  myself,  even  on<' of  the  most . 
bard  witnesses  on  me  said  that  with  all  my  vanity  I  never  was  j)articular  as  to  my 
clothinj;  :  vi-s,  lierausi-  I  never  had  ninch  to  liuy  any  clothint;.  The  rcM'rend  Father 
Andie.  has  often  liatl  the  kindness  to  feed  my  familv  witli  a  sack  of  flour  and  Fathi-r 
Fourinond  :  my  wife  and  children  are  without  means,  while  I  am  wofkin^'  n;orc  th\in 
any  "ii').resentati\e  in  the  Xoith-AVest  altlioUL;h  I  am  simjily  a  ,1,'uest  of  this  country,  :i 
guest  of  the  {ialf-l>re'.'<ls  of  the  tsaskatcliewan.  Althouuh  as  a  simple  ijuest  i  woik  ^o 
better  the  condition  of  the  people  of  the  Saskatchewan,  at  the  risk  of  my  life,  to  lii-tter 
•  condition  of  the  people  of  the  Norlh-West.  I  have  never  had  any  j)ay.  It  has  always  lieon 
iny  ho])e  to  hax-a  fair  li\  intone  di.y.  It  will  be  for  you  to  pronounce.  Jf  yii  say  I  was  rij/ht, 
you  can  conscientiously  acij|Uit  n.e,  as  I  lio]^-  tliii>uj.di  tin-  liilp  of  (iixl,  you  will.  ■  You 
will  console  those  who  hiivr.  been  fifteen  years  around  nu-,  only  jBirtaking  in  iny  suH'er- 
ings  :  what  you  v.i',1  do  in  justice  to  me,  iilju.stice  to  niy  family,  injustice  to  my  friendu, 
in  jWsfice  to  the  North-Wesst,  will  be  rendered  a  huuilred  times  to  you  in  this  world, 
and  to  Use  a  sacred  c.vjires^ion,  life  everhisting  in  the  other.  L 

I  tliank  your  Honors  for  the  favour  you  have  liranted  me  in  s]ieakinL:,  I  lliank  ynu  fjr 
the  attention  you  have  given  me,  (ientlemen  of  the  Juiy,  anri  I  thank  th<i>e  wlio  have  h<ul 
the  kindness  to  encourage  iny  imperfect  way  of  sjK-aking  tlie  English  language  lij 
their  good  attention.  I  jiut  my  spi-i  ch  under  ihe  )irotcction  of  my  (irnl.  my  Saviour,  hit 
is  tlu'  only  one  who  can  make  it  effective,  it  is  possible  it  should  beiome  eliiclive  as  it! 
is  proj>osed  to  good  men,  to  good  peo|>le,  aiid  to  i;(i(pd  ladies  also  ' 

Mr.  Hobinson  for  the  pro.iecution  addre.-ses  the  jury  and  aflcr  him  the  pre->idin;; 
Judge  di-liveis  his  charge. 

On  the  jury  returninj(,\ifler  having  retired  to  consider  their  verdict,  tlie  clerk  of 
the  Court  asked:  (ientlemen,  are  you  agreed  upon  your  verdict  ?  ITowsayyou?  Is  the 
prisunei-  guilty  or  not  guiltv  .' 

The  jury  find  the  prisoner  guilty. 

Clkkk. — (gentlemen  ojf  the  Jury,  hearken  to  your  verdict,  as  the  Court  records  it  : 
You  lind  t!ie  prisoner,  Louis  Kiel,  guilty,  so.say  you  all. 

The  Jury  answered  :  <iuilty.  • 

A  JirKtiR. — Your    Hc^nor,   I  have  been  asked  by  my   brother-jurors  to  n^comniend 
'  the  jH'isoner  to  the  mercy  pt  the  Crown. 

.Mr.  .IfSTiCK  HH^ll.\lflJSOy.--l  mtiy  say  in  answer  to  yon  that  the  reconnnendation 
which  you  have  given,  will  be  forwarded  in  proper  manner  to  tlie  proper  authorities 

.  Mr.  lloniNSOX. — iJo  Your  Honors  propose  to  pass  .sentence  now.  I  believe  the  proper 
coursi'  is  t  >  ask  the  .sentence  of  the  Court  ujion  the  prisom^r. 

Mr.  JfSTlCE  R!cri.\ltl)S0N. — Louis  Kiel,  have  you  anything  to  say  why  the  sentence 
of  the  Coui't  should  not  Id  prououncinl  u[)on  you,  for  the  otlence  of  wliich  you  liave  been 
found  guilty. 

.Phisoxeh.  —  Yes,  Your  Honor. 

Mr.  firzPATKicK. — Uefore  tliB  aeeused  answers  or  makes  any  remarks  as  suggested 


NT 


155 

•>_v  Your  Honor,  I  would  lifjj  loave  simiily  to  ask  Your  Honor  to  kindly  note  the  olijectiou 
wliioli  I  liavf  already  taken  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Court. 

Mr.  JrsTif'E'  Rkmlviiksox. — It  is  noted,  Mr  Fitzpatrick.  You  understand  of  course 
^vlly  1  cannot  ruh^  upon  it. 

-M.  FlTZH.MltlCK.  —  It  is  simply  so  as  ta  reserve  any  recourse 'the  law  niny  allow  here- 
after. 

P'lIKONKH.      fan  I  spoak  now  ?    "  .,■  •      '     .  , 

Mr.  JfSTICK    KlCll.\lcl>sos-.--0]i  yes.  . 

Plil.-oxKlt. — Your  Honf«r,  (ientlenien  of  tliejury  .  .  .  . 

hlv.  JrsriCK    Hi<'il.\l!l)so.N. — Tlere  is  no  jury  now,  they  are  disclmrged.' 

T'kisoNKK. — Well,  tliey  have  pas.sed  away  l«efore  nie.  _ 

Mr.  .risTlcK    Hlcu.MiKsoN  — Yes,  they  liave  passed  away. 

'PuisoNEii. — Hut  at  the  .same  time,  I  oflsider  them  yet  still  there,  still  in  their  s^a'ts. 
Th'<'<)urt  lias  done  the  work  fi^r  me,  and  although  at  first  ap|iearance  it  seems  to  l.e 
ji_'  linst  me,  I  am  so  conti.h-nt  in  the  iilea  which  1  ]y\Vf  h:ul  the  honor  to  exiiress  yesterday, 
th  it  I  think  it  is  for  ({ood  and  not  for  my  loss.  Up  to  this  moment,  1  ha\e  lieen  con- 
sidfi'ed  hy  a  <-ertain  party  as  insane,  hy  .mother  party  as  a  criminals  hy  anothir  party  as 
a  iji'iii  with  wlr>m  it  was  dou'itjfjil  whether  to  have  any  intercourse.  So  tlieiie  was 
hostility  and  there  w,is  e.intempt,  and  tliere  was  avoidance  To-day,  l>y  the  verdict  of  the 
('olirt,  one  of  thesi-  three  situations  has  disapiieared. 

I  sujipose  that  after  ha»  ini;  Ti?hji  condemninl,  I  will  cease  to  \n'  called  a  fool,  and. 
for  me  it  is  a  i.'!eat  advantajre.  I  coniider  it  as  a  ijreat  advantage.  If  I  have  a  Ini.sgion,  I 
sail  ••  If"  fdi  ,'  '  sake  of  those  who  doulit,  liut  for  my  part  if  means  "  Since,  "  .since  I 
liave  a  mi.s.sion,  1  i-annot  fullil  my  mission  a.s  lonj;  as  I  am  looked  upon  as  an  insane 
l'«/ln'j — liumaiiHH;nii.',  at  thi>  moment  that   I  lie-in, to  ascend  that  scale,  I  l>e<rin  to  svjcceed.  ' 

I  \<>\l  ha\e  askTH^iiK',  ^  our  Honor,  if  I  hid  anythini,'  to  say  why  my  .senteijA' ^houl<l 
n  >i  lie  passed.  Yes,  it  is  on  that  point  |r.irlicular]v  mv  attention  is  directed.  Kefore  sayiiii; 
a  lything  aliout  il,  I  wish  to  take  notice  that  ii  there  has  'e;  er  lieen  any  contradiction  in 
niy  life,  it  is  at  this  moment,  and  du  I  ajipiar  excited?  Am  1  verv  irritalile  ?  .('an  1 
f  mtrol  my.M'lf;  And  it  is  just  on  reliijion  and  on  politics,  and  1  am  oontradicte<l 
at  this  moment  on  politics,  and  the  .-.mile  that  conies  to  my  face  is  not  an  act 
<>l'  my  will,  so  mucli  it  comes  naturally,  from  the  satisfaction  that  I  prove  that 
i  experience  secinj;  one  fif  my  ditliculties  di.sa]ppearinj;.  Should  1  lie  executeil,  at  least  if 
I  were  f^oiiij;  to  lie  executed,  I  would  siot  he  executed  as  an  insane  man,  it  would  he  a. 
^  real  consolation  for  my  mother,  for  my  wife,  for  my  children,  for  my  hrothers,  for  iny 
r  I'.atives,  e\en  for  my  protectors,  for  my  countrymen.  I  thank  tlie  gentlemen  >vho  were 
fT'liiposing  the  Jury  for  liav  ing  recommended  me  to  the  clemency  of  the  Court.  When  I 
ekpre.ss   the   great   hoiie   that    I    liave    just  cvjiiessed   to  you,' I  don't' express   it  without 

ound,  mv  hopes  are  reasoiialile,  and  since  they  are  recommended,  since  the  recommend- 
al|ion  of  the  Jury  to  theCrown  is  for  clemency.    It  would  he  ea.sy  for  me.  vour  Hrnors.  to 
ke  an  incendiary  protest,  and   take  the  three   rea,sons  which   have  tieen   reasoiialih'  ]iut 

rward  hy  my  good  lawyers   and  learned    lawyers,  ahout  the  .Jury,  aliout  their  .selectioy. 
Ut  the  one  who  selected  them,  and  aliout  the  competencv  of  the  I'miit,  lait  why  sliould 

do  it,  since  the  Court  has  undertaken  to  prove  that  I  am  a  reasonalde  man  i  Must  not 

take  advantaije  of  the  situation  to  show  that  they  are  liLrh^and  that  I  am  reasonalde, 
d  yesterday,  when  1  sai(l  liy  repeiitinj.'  the  evidence  which  has  lieen  tjiven  a>.'ain.st  jne, 
len  1  said  in  comlusion  that  you  had  a  decent  projihet,  I  have  ju.st  to-tlay  the  great 
portiiniiy  of  proving  it  is  so,  he.sides  clearing  me  of  the  stain  of  insanity,  clearing  luy 

,reer  of  tlie  stain  of  insanity.    I  think  the  verdict  that  has  heen  given  against    me  is  a' 

i.of  that  I  am  more  than  ordinary  myself,  liut  that  the  circumstances  and  the  help-that 
iriven  is  more  than  ordinary,  are  more   than  ordinary,  and  although  I  consider  myself  , 

ilv  as  others,  vet  liv  the  will  ((f  <.io<l,  \i\  his  Providence,  hy  the  circumstances  which  hsTe 


1.33  ..  ' 

siiiToundeil  me  for  fifteen  years,  [  tliink  that  I  liave  been  called  to  do  soniethinf,'  which  at 
least  in  the  X  irlh-West  nobody  has  done  yet,  and  in  some  way  I  tliink  that  to  a  certain 
number  ^it  peojile  tlie  venlict  against  me  to  day  is  a  proof  that  may  be  [  am  a  |irophet, 
may  be  Riel  is  a  prophet.  He  suHers  for  it.  Now,  I  have  been  huutecl  as  an  elk  foi-  titieu 
yeai-s.  David  has  been  .seventeen,  I  think.  I  would  have  to  be  about  two  years  still  ;  if 
the  misfortunes  jthat  I  have  ha<l  to  j,'o  throu;;h  were  to  be  as  long  as  tho.se  of  the  old 
David,  I  wouUl  have  two  years  still,  but  I  hope  it  will  cimie  .sooner. 

I.  have  two  reasons  why  I  woulil  ask  that  sentence  should  not  be  passecl  upon  me, 
aj^ainst  me.  !i'ou  will  excuse  nie,  you  know  my  dlthculty  in  speakint;  Kniflish,  and  I 
have  had  no  time  to  prepare.  Your  Honor,  .  .  .  Even  had  I  prepared  anythini,'  it  would 
have  IWn  imperfect  enoiuj;h,  and  I  have  not  prei>ared,  and  I  wish  you  would  oxiuse, 
what  I  have  to  .say,  the  way  which  I  will  1m-  able,  perha|)s,  to  express  it. 

Q.  The  trouldes  of  the  Saskatchewan  are  no^  to  be  taken  as  an  isolated  fai-t.  Tlicy 
are  tlie  I'e^ult  of  Hffeen  years  war.  The  lu-ad  of  that  dilliculty  lies  in  the  diHiciUty  of 
Red  Itiver.  The  trouliles  of  the  Red  River  were  called  the  trouldes  of  the  Xorth-West, 
and  I  Would  like  to  know  if  the  troubles  of  the  Saskatchewan  have  not  the  name  to-day 
ol'  beini;  the  troubles  of  tin;  North- West  ,'  So  the  troubl6s,of  IHQO,  beini;  the  troubles  (if 
the  Xorth-West  and  the  troubles  of  iSSo  being  still  the  troubles  of  the  XortIi-West,\  the 
suggestion  comes  naturally  to  the  mind  of  the  observer  if  it  is  a  continuation  ofltlie 
troubles  <»f  the  Xorth-West,  if  the  troubles  of  ISS.")  mv  ,i  coniinu.ition  of  the  troubleli  of 
l^iOO.  Or  if  they  aiB  two  ti'oubles  entirely  (liH'ereiit,  A  say  they  are  not.  Canada,  ,no, 
I  ought  not  to  .say  Canada,  bec.uise  it  was  a  L^'rtain  uiinilier  of  imjividuals,  perhaps  se/.eu 
or  eiudit  lutndired  that  cm  have  passed  for  Canada,  but  tli^cam,e  to  Red  River,  juid 
they  wanted  to  take  possession  of  the  country  viithout  consulting  the  iieo|)le.  Tni 
was  the  Half  breed  people  There  were  a  c-rtain  nunibei 
population,  but  the  great  majoiiry   were  Half-breed:^ 

We  tool:  up  arms  agiiinst  the  invaders  from  the  Kast  without  knowing  them       T 
were -SO  far  ajiiirt  from  ua,  on  the  other  side  of  the  Lakes,  that  it  caiumt  lie  said   that 


iber  of  white  pioneers  among!  the 


ley 
we 


w 
Wh( 


did  nut  know  them.     They  came  wi'liout  iiotilica' i\in. 


had  any-  hatr.-d  against  thei 

Thej^auie  boldly.  We  said  :  Who  are  they  S.  They  slid:  We  are  the  |iossessoTs  of  t 
couiftiy.  Well,  knbwing-that  it  was  not  true,  we  (lone  again.st.tho.se  parties  coming  fro 
tlie  East  what  we  used  t<j  do  against  the  Indians  from  the  South  and   from   tht;  \\'es 


when  they  would  invaile 
■^lon't   mean  to  s-ay  that 
State:,    shi>ulil    interfere, 


us.   Public  opinion  i;i   the  States  helped   us  a  great  deal.. 

it  is  needed  to  obtain  justice  on  this  side  of  the  line  that  tl 
but  at  that  time,  as  there  was  no  telegraph  communication 
between  the  Eastern  Provinces  and  the  Xurth-West,  no  r.iilroad,  and  as  the  natural  way 
of  going  to  Canada  was  throi^gh  the  I'niteil  States,  naturally  all  the  rumor.s,  all  the 
new-*'  had  ,to  pa.ss  by  the  States,  and  on  their  pas.sag/'  they  had  to  meet  rtie  remarHs 
and  observations  of  the  American  ]ieople.  Tin;^  American  people  were  favorable  to  us  ; 
besides,  the  Opposition  in  (^uiada  done  the  same  thing  and  said  to  the  (lOvernmei-  i 
Well,  why  ilid  you  go  into  the  Xorth-West  without  consulting  the  [leople  .'  We  te  k 
up  arms,  us  I  stated,  and  we  made  huiidiedsof  prisoners,  and  we  negotiated.  A  trea  [y 
was  iiia<le  That  treaty  was  made  by  a  delegation  of  both  |iarties.  Whether  you  considier 
the  organization  of  the  Red  River  peo|)le  at  that  time  as  a  Provisional  (iovernment  or  iiipt, 
the  fact  is  tli^t  we  were  recogni/ed  as  a  body,  tribal,  if  you  like  to  call  it  so,  as  a  social 
iKxiy,  with  whom  the  Canadian  (Iovernment  treate<l.  Did  they  treat  with  thiMU  as  tliJ^y 
treat  with  Indians  ?  ^i  will  l>e  for  them  to  siy  that  they  did  not.  Since  Sir  John  .h.. 
Macdonald  and  the  late  Sir  (ieorge  Cartier  were  delegated  by  the  Dominion  Covernnielit 
to  meet  our  delegates,  delegates  who  had  lieen  appointed  by  me,  the  President,  (that  is  tl 
name  tlrnt  was  given  to  me  by  the  Council,)  the  President  of  that  Council,  and  our  delegat  f!S 
had  been  invited  three  times,  tirst  by  Donald  A.  Smith,  a  member  of  the  Privy  Cnunail 
at  that  tiine  ;  second,  by  the  Reverend  Mr.  Thibault,  the  late  Reverend  Mr.  Tliibau 
third,  by  Archbishop  Tache,  who  had  been  called  from  Rome  for  the  purpose  of  pacifyii 
the  North- West.  When  those  three  delegates  had  invited  us  to  .send  delegates 
thought  tint  it  was  safe  to  send  delegates,  and  I  appointed  the  Reverend  Father  Richo  ;, 
now  curate  of  Saint  Norbert,  in  Manitoba;  I  appointed  the  lute  Judge  Illack,  who  died  i 


l.')7 


iSrotliUul  ;  I  ap])ointf'(l  Alfred  H  Scott,  lie  is  dead  also,  and  thesf  three  delegates  started, 
vitli  ourliill  of  ri;,dits  of  twent}' conditions,  to  go  and  juit  it  liefore  the  Canadian  Govern- 
ment, and  when  our  delegates  came  to  Ottawa  the  Government  wanted  to  treat  tlieni 
as  Indians,  I  su])]M)se. 

Father  I'itchot-sjaid  if  you  don't  give  me  in  writing  mv  acknowledgement  as  a 
delegate,  I  will  go  liack  and  you  will  go  with  your  bayonets  to  the  North-West — acknow- 
ledge my  status — I  am  invited,  I  come  and  what  was  tin- answer  ?  Our  delegates  had  lieen 
invited  three  times.  How  were  they  received  in  Canada  ?  They  were  arreste<l.  To  shrrw 
exactly  what  is  the  right  of  nations,  they  were  arrested.  They  had  not  a  formal  trial,  l.ut 
the  fact  remains  that  they  were  arrested,  and  the  jirote.st  of  IJev.  Fatlier  Ritchot  is  still 
in  the  document.  However,  there  was  a  treaty.  .Sir  John  A.  Macdonald  was  delei;ate<l, 
the  late  Sir  George  Cart ier  was  delegated  to  treat  with  the  peojile,  with  those  three 
delegates,  now  how  were  they  acknowiedj^ed  '  AVeiv  they  acknowledged  as  delegates  of 
Kiel;  Oh!  no,  they  were  acknowleilged  as  the  delegates  of  the  XorthAVest.  The  late 
Mr.  (fowe,  in  his  acknowledgement  of  the  delegates,  and  in  notifying  them  vho  hatl 
lieenllelegated  hy  the  Canadian  (iovernment  to  treat  wkh  them,  told  them  that  they 
vere  acknowledged  as  the  delegates  of  the  Xorth-West.  Then  it  was  the  cause  of  the 
Noi-tjli-West  that  they  re[iresented.  It  is  acknowledged  l>y  the  Canadian  <  iovernment  l>v 
that,  very  .same  fact  that  fifteen  years  ago,  the  treaty  of  whick  1  am  sjieaking  wa.s 
the  freiity  of  the  North- West  —of  the  delegates  of  tlie  Nortli-We.st,  and  if  l>y  trying  to 
.say  that  it  was  the  dele;;ates  of  the  Ntirih  West  they  wanted  to  avoiil  the  fact  that  I 
was  no  lieing  at  all,  the  whole  world  know^  that  it  is  not  so,  they  cannot  a\iiid  me,  and 
Sir  John  A.  .Maidonald  himself,  in  the  rejmrt  of  the  committee  of  in(|uiry  aliout  tho.se 
xer\  same  trouliles,  the  committee  which  sat  in  1.S74,  Sir  John  A.  ^lacdonald  said  :  ••  1 
tliiiik  we  ackiiowledi^'e  Riel  in  his  status  of  a  (iovernor.'  What  was  that  treaty  .'  Was  it 
an  I  udian  all'air  ?  If  it  had  Imimi  an  Indian  aliair,  .Manitol)a  would  not  have  l>een  as  it  is, 
won  Id  not  lit^  as  it  is.  We  had  the  Manitol.a  Act.  there  was  an  agreement  lietweeil  the 
t  viM  dclei;ate.s  how  the  whole  NorthWcst  interest  would  he  considered,  and  Imw  the 
Can  idian  (iovernment  woulil  treat  with  the  North-West,  and  th-Mi  liavini;  settled  all  the 
mat  Icr  of  |iriin-i]ile,  tho.se  very  ]irinci|iles,  the  agreement  was  made  those  very  iirinci]ile.s 
wolid<l  he  inaugurated  ii^  Manitoba  first.     There  was  a  Province  erected  with    respoiLsilile 


(i 

to 

COl 


rniMent       The  lands  they  were  kept  liy  the   Uominion.      As   the   Half-hreeil    pt-ople 
I'e  till'  majority  of  Manitoba,  as  at  their  stage  of  civilization   they  were   not    sU]iposed 


lie  able  to  aibuihl.ster  tlieir  lamls,  wi 
aession    to   let    thi*m   j;o,  not  brcaus 


H,'e  ( 
tliouj.'lit    that,  at    that    time,  it  was  a  reaM>nalile 
we  were  willing;    to    let    tlieni  i,'o.  but  beiause  it 
f  the  lands. 


.sei  mecl  iniiiracticable  to  ha\e  the  administration  of  the  lands.      Still  one  of  the  conditiiMis 

■,  tlur   the  jieople  of   the    North-Wet  wanted  the  administration  of   their   lands.      Tlie 

If-breeils    had    a    million     and     the     land     ijrant     of    l,40(J,0ilO   acres    owned     ab.ait 

0(1.001),  if  I  mistake  not,  which   is  abnut  1-7  of   the  land  of    Manitolia.      Yuu  will  M-e 

oi  ii.Mne  i)f  my  insanity  and  of  my  foreiiju  policy.      1-7  of  the  laud  w,is  Lrranted  to  the 

[lie,  to  the    llalf-llreell^  of    Manitoba,  Hngli.sh    and    Flench,  Protestant  and  Catholic. 

re  was  no  distinction  whatever,  but  in  the  subdivi^bion,  in  the  ailotnieiit  of  those  lands 

t  ween  the  I  [alt  luceds  of  .Manitoba,  it  came  that  they  had  L' -10  acre.s  of   land.    Now  the 

adian  (iovernment  .say,  that  we  will  give  to  the  Half-breeds  fif  the  North- West,  :.'40 

If  I  was  insane  I  would  say  yes,  but  as  1  have  had,  thank  (iod,  all   the   tiiin*,  the 

cienciousiiess   that  I  had   a   certain  Vlegree  of  reason,  I  have   made  u]i   my  mind    to 

o  use  of  it  anil  to  say  that  1-7  of  tlie    lauds    in    ^lanitoba,  as  tlie  inauiiuration  ci   a 

ciple  ill  the    North- West,  had   to   bring   to  tlie    Half-breeds  of   the'  NorihWest.  at 

t    as    soon  as   possible,  the   guarantee   for  the  future   that    a    sc\eiith    of   the    lands 

al.so  be  give.i  to  them.     And   .seeing  and'yoiuself  amlerstandiut;  Imw  it  is  illllicult  lor 

all  jiopula;  ion  as  the  Half-breed   jiopiil  iiiiin   to  have    their  \oice   heard,    1  said  what 

iigs  to  us  ouuht  to  be  ours       <  >ur  right   to   the   North- West  i.s  ackiunvledged.  our  ci>- 

rietorshij)  with  the  Indi.ms  is  acknowledLTed,  since  one-seventh   of  the  lanils  is  i:i\eii 

but  we  lia\i'  not  the  niea'ns  to  be  heard,  what  will  we  do  !  I  said  to  some  of  my  friends  : 

here  is  no  other  way,  we  will  make  the  jieople  who  ha\n»  no  country  undtir>t md    tint 

lave  a  countrv  here  which  we  have  ceded   on  condition,  we  want  the   seventh  of   tlj© 


wa 
l\; 

!',•" 
tin 

!«■' 

Th 

1 

Ca 

acr 

con 

ma 

pri 

leju 

w 


i 


158 


land,  and  if  the  barj^ain  i$  not  kept,  it  is  null  and  void,  and  we  havn  no  ri;^lit  to  ivti-cit 
ajjiiin,  and  if  we  cannot  have  our  seventh  of  tlie  lands  from  Canada,  we  will  ask  the 
people  of  tlie  States,  the  Italians  to  come  and  help  us  as  inimi^'raiits,  the  Irish,  I  u  ill 
count  tliem. 

Xow,  it  is  my  turn  I  thank  you.  I  count  them  and  I  will  show  you  if  I  mad(?an  insane 

enum-ration  of  the  parties.    Isay,  we  will  invite  the  Ittilians  of  the  States,  the  Iri^h   <>{ 

the  States,  the  I$a variants  of  the  States,  Poles  of  the  States,  l>elij,'ians  of  tin'  Slates  and  if 

they  come  and  help  us  here  to  lia-.e  the   7th,  we  will   L'ive  tiieni  (jaeh  ;f  7th  and  to  show 

tint  we  are  not  fanatics,  that  we  are   not  partis  ms,  tliaf  we  do  not  wish  oidy  for  the  t 'a- 

tholii's,  but  that  we  havea  consiileration  for  those  who  are  not  Catholics,  I  said,  we  will 

invite  the  Danes.      We  will   in\it.e  the  Swedes  who    are  numerous    in    tiie   ;>tates,   and 

the  Norwegians  to  come  aiound,  anil  as  there  are  Indijins  and  Half-l)reeds  in  Hritish  Co- 

lijnibia  and  as  ISritish  Cohnnbia  is  a  part  of  the  innnense  N  irth-We.st,  we  said  not   fmly 

for  ourselves  but  speakin;^  of  our  cliildreii  we  will  make  tin;  proposition  that  if  they  lielp 

us  to  have  tur  7th  on  the  two  sides  of  the  11  ocky  Mountains  they  will  each  liave  a  sev<Mith, 

and  if  the  J'W.s  tt'ill  heip/i?>)iinj  on  the  condition  that  tJK-y  ackno«le;l;,'e  Jesus-Chri.*t  as 

the  Son  of  (ioi)  and  the  only  Sa\  lour  of  iiuinan  kintl,  if  tin  y  help  us  with  their  moneu  wi 

will  c'ive  them  one  .seventh,  and  I  saiil  also,  if  the  principle  of  i^ivin;;  one  seventh  of  [the 

lands  is  good  ill  the  Xorth-WVst,  if  the  principle  of  jiiviin^one  seventh  of  the  lands  liAth 

iliill-breed.s  iu  the  North  West  is  ),'Ood,  it  ouu'ht  to  lie  ^roud  in  the  Ivist  also,  an<l  1  saill  if 

it  is  not   possible  that   oii^   views   should    be   heard,  we  will,   I,  a.s  an   american   citizrlj.  I 

will  invite   the]  (Jermaus  [)f  the  States  and  1  will  say  if  you  ever  liave  an  opportuniiyl  (■! 

i-rti.ssinji  th'!  liilf^in  the  East  do  it  and  help  the  Indians  and  tlie  Half-breeds  of  tlie  la<sl 

to  have  a  revi-inle  ei|Unal('at  t>)  abofit  one  ?,eviMitli.  And  what  v.ould  be  llie  reward  of  \Ui 

(iermans.   The.reward  of  the  (iermans  v.ouid  be  if  tli.'y  were  successful  to   take  a  j^mi 

the  country,  and  make  a  new  (iennan  Indian  world  somewhere  in  Ib'itish    North  Amei' 

Hut  that  is  the  last  reBorr,,  and  if  I  iiad  not   had  ..i  verdict  of  ,i;uilt  ii;^,iinst    me  I 

liave  never  said  it.   Yestenlay  it  was  just  tliose  ihincs  that  J  have  avoided  tosay  whe 

Slid  I. have  a  reason  not  to  mention  tliem,  and  wlicn   1  slid  as  one  of  the  witne.sses  s 

that  my  iiroclaniation  v.ai  in   Peniliina,  I  think   I  am  rii,dit  becau.se  r)f  this  trial  ;  yo 

that  my  pretentions  is  that  I  can  .speak  a  little  of  the  future  events,  my  trial  lia.s  broug 

out  the  c|U.istioii  of   the  .st'venth  and  although  no  one  has  e.\plaiiiid   the  thin:.»s  as   I 

now  still   there  i.s-  enouiiU  .s,iid  about  the  sevenths  of  the  lands  and  the  division  of  t! 

lainla  into  sevi'iiths,  seveii   nationalities,  whih'  it  ouifht   to  have  been   .said   betuciMi  ti 

nationaiiti>'s,  t!|iat  by  teiei;)-apli  to-day  niy  jiroclama'iou  is  in  Pembina  truly  and  the  Stjn 

have  my  ideas!  They  have  my  ideas.   The  Fenian  element,  gentlemen,  without  any  tain,'iii 

object  have  criissed  the  lines  several  times  for  the  only  .sake  of  what   many  ha\e  imII- 

revenj;e,but  mjw  that  Kiel  svhose  name  is  some  what  prominent  for  lifteen  years  is  knnwftn 

to  be  iu  his  troilbles  for  life  and  death  for  himself  and  liis  natitionality,  ikc.v  that  my  tvl. 

gives  me  a  certain  increase  of  cidebrity,  now  that  tho.se  c[ue.-,tions  are  ajipearing  before  tl 

public  now  that!  there  is  a  land  league  in  the  States,  that  the  very  .same  element  which  po>>i 

se.s  Feiiiaiiism  IS  still  thereiand  ipiiet  because  they  have  no  plan,  because  they  lia\e  no  id 

around  which  l|o   gather  tHieir  nuinber.s  and  when  they  catch  at  it  do  you  think  that  ihi 

will  smile  ?  .Viijd  Gabriel  Dumont  on  the  other  sidi:  of  the  line,  is  that  (fabriel  Dumont  in 

iiv('.  ;  1  believfj  not      Ho  is  tryiiii^  to  save  iiie  from  tliis  bo.K     This  is  no  thrent      I  ir 

written  it.  I  liave  written  a  document  of  that  kind  and  \n\t  iu  in  the  hands  of  Capt 

Dean,  three  w«ck.s  ago        This  is  not  an  inspiration  of  the  moment.      I  ha\  e  tlu;  right 

tliank  t;o<l  for  the  yireyision  of  what  happens  to  day  but  there  is  another  means.    I  doi 

wish  that  iiieaijs,  these  means.      I  don't  wish  tliem  to  call  the  people  fioni  the  States 

this  side  ol  the;  line.  No,  I  wish  it  only  if  there  is  no  other  po.ssibility.  If  there  is  no  otliij 

resort,  of  cour.s*;  that  is  my  wisli.    The  last   remedy  although  it  may  be  e.\tleiiie  is  alwa 

a  remedy  and  is  always  worth^ojnething  to  try  it,  but  if  there  is  Justice  as  I  still  liop( 

Oh  '  here  it  seems  to  iiie  I  have  beconij  insane  to  hope  still.    1  have  .seen  so  many  men 

my  position  and  where  are  they  ?  But  Lepine  has  liad  a  scafibld  also  in  Manitoba,  aijlul 

he  \Vjis  not  executed.  Why  ?  Because  he  was  recommended  to  the  clemency  of  tlie  cour^ 

The  idea  of  theirth  I  1  have  two  hands,  and  I  liave  two  sides  on  my  head,  and  I  have  t\\^o 


ot 

•a. 

Ilhl 

I 

dd 

C.e 
It 


r 


he    \- 


159 


countries.  I  am  an  Ariierican  citizen  and  I  have  two  countries.  an<l  I  am  taken  here  as  a 
British  subject.  I  don't  almndnn  my  idea  of  t)ie  7th.  1  say  l)ecause  tiie  other  is  an  extreme 
and  all  e.xtreiiiity  I  don't  wish  for  it  till  e.xtremities  liave  coiuf  and  I  liave  come  to 
extremities  just  now,  hut  there  are  some  Iiojies  yet.  For  me,  my  heart  is  full  of  hojio  hut 
my  frieiid.s,  I  suppose  that  many  of  them  think  that  1  am  },'niie. 

If  t'anada  is  just  with  me,  if  Canada  respects  my  life,  my  lilierty  and  my  reputation, 

they  will  j^ive  me  all    what    they   ha\e   taken  from   me,  and   as   I   said   yesterday,  that 

immeii.se   iidlueiice  which  my  acts  art^   f^atheriiij;  for  the  last  tifteen  years  and  which  as 

the  power  of  steam  contained  in  an  engine  will  have  its  way,  tlieil   what   will    I   do  ;     Jt 

will  do  that  perhaps  Kiel  will  go  to  the  Dominion  Ministry,  and  there  instead  of  calliu" 

the  parties  from  the  States,  he  will  hy  means,  constitutional  means  of  the  country,  invito 

the  same  parties  fiuiii  Kuropi^  as  emigration.  Hut  let  it  he  well  understood  that  as  my  rij^ht 

has  lieen  ackiiowlt'dj;ed  as  the  coju-fiprietor  of  the  soil  with  the  Indians,  I  want  to  assert 

that  right.  It  is  coiistitutionnally  acknowledged  in  the  Manitoiia  Act  hy  the;51st  clau.se  of 

€t  Act  and  it  does  not  say  to  extinguish  the  Indian  title,  it  says  two  words,  e.vtinguish- 

inj{aiid  1,4IIU,0(IU  acres  of  land.  Two  words.  .\n(l  as  each  child  of  the  liall-lireeds  t;ets  l-7th, 

naturally  I  am  at  lea.it  entitle;!  to  the  .same.  It  is  why  I  spokeof  the  7th.  Foi;  the  Indians, 

not  of  the  lands  hut  of  the  revenue  as  it  iiicri'ases.  ISut  someliody  w  ill  say  on  what  j.'rouiid 

will  you  !i>k  l-7tli,  of  the  lands  ?  Oovoii  own  the  lauds  1  In  Ein;land,iii  Fraiilce,  the  French 

and  the  Fnglisli  ha\  e  laud,  the  first  who  were  in  Ii^iiijIaiK^,  they  were  the  owners  of  the  .soil 

ailil  they  transmitted  togeneratious      Now  hy  the  .soil  they  lia\e  had  their  start  as  a  natifii. 

Who  starts  the  nalioiis  (  The  very  same  one  who  cif  ates  them,  (lod.  tiod  is  the  master  of 

tlie  uniyef.se,  our  ]ilanet  is  his  land,  and  the  nations,  the  tiihes,  are  memlieis  (.f  Ids  family, 

a  id  as  a   good   Father  he  gives  a  portion  (pf  his   lauds   to   that  nation,    to   that   trdie,  to 

e   eryone,  that  is  his  lieritai;e,  thai,  is  his  share  of  the  inheritance,  of  the  "people,  or  nation, 

I   ■  trihe.      NKjw  here   isa   nation,  strong  as   it  may  he,    it  has  had  his  iiiheritan.e  from 

(  od,  when  they  liave  ciowded  their  country  hecause  they  have  no  room  to  stay  at  home, 

i    does  not  give   tlieni   the  right  to  come   and   take  the  share  of  the  small  trihe  hesides 

t  lem,  when  they  come  they  ought  to  say.    Well  my  little  sister,  tlie  Cree  trihe,  yy-ii  have  a 

J    eat    territory,    Imt    that   territory  has   heeii  given   to   you    as  our   own    land    has  \n<  i\ 

riven   to  our   fathers   in  Knglaml,  or  in  France,  and   of  course  you  cannot  e.\ist  wiijioiit 

laving  that   spot  of  land.      This    is    the    principle.      God   cannot   cieate  a  trihe   without 

<icating  it,  we  are  not   hirds,  we  have  to  walk   on  tlie  ground,  and   that   ground    is   en- 

■iilied  with    many  things  wliich   hesides   its   own    value    increases   its  value   in    anotlu'r 

;i;auiier,  and  when  we  culti\ute  it,  we  still  increase  that  \alue.      Well,  on  what   principle. 

an    it   he    that  the  (-'anadian  Government    have   given  the   7th  to  the' Halfhieeds   in 

.Manitoha  f    I  say   it  must    lie  on   this  ground,  civilization  has  the  meiyjs  of  improving 

ife    that    Indians   or    Half -hreeds   have    not,    so    that    when    they  conui--lu    our    savaije 

•ountr\-,  in  our  uncultivated  land,  they  come   and  help  us   with  their  ci\iliziiti(in  hut- we 

lelp  tlelii  with  our  land.s,  .so  the  question  comes,  your  land,  you  C'lee  or  jou  Half  hreed, 

our  land  is  worth  to  day  l-7th,  of  what  it  will  he  when  civilization  will  have  opened  it. 

mr  country  unopened  is  worth  to  you  only  l-7th  of  what  it  will  he  when  opened. 

1  think  it  is  a  fair  share  to  acknowledge  the  genius  of  civilisation  to  .such  an  e.\t"nt 
s  to  give  when  I  have  seven  jiairs  of  sficks,  si.\  to  keep  one.  They  made  tlie  treaty  with 
As  they  made  the  treaty,  1  say  they  had  to  ohserve  it  and  did  tliey  ohserve  the  treaty  ! 
<o,  there  was  a  (juestion  of  amm^sty  and  when  the  treaty  was  made,  one  of  the  ■jUestions 
that  liefoie  tlie  Canadian  go\  eminent  would  send  a  Governor  int.i  Manitoha  an  iiiijie- 
lial  amnesty  should  he  proclaimed  so  as  to  hlot  out  all  the  dilHculties  of  th.-  jiiist.  Instead  of 
roclaimiiig  a  general  amnesty  hefore  the  arrival  of  the  Governer,  which  took  place  the 
Ind  of  Sepfemher  1N7U,  the  amnesty  was  proclaimed  the  lioth  .\pril  ^'i.  So  I  siilieied 
l>r  rive  vears  unprotected.  Hesides  I  was  expelled  from  tlie  House  tw  icy,  I  wa.s,tliey  .say.out- 
kwi  d  t.ut  as  I  was  husv  as  a  iiiemher  in  the  Fast  and  that  the  trial  was  the  West  I  could  not 
y  in  two  plates  and  they  »<iy  that  I  was  outlawed,  hut  no  notitication  was  sent  to  my  house 
ken  >>*  any  priM-itnlings  of  the  court.  They  say  that  I  was  outlawed  and  when  the  amnesty 
»me  ti  e  years  after  the  time  it  should  have  come,  1  was  hanished  for  five  years  and 
ep.iie  u  •privwl  of  his  jxilitical  rights  for  ever.  Why?  Because  he  had  given  political  rights 


^ 


160 


V 


to  Manitoba.  Is  that  alt?  No.  Did  the  amnesty  come  the  Imperial  Governement  ?  Not 
at  all.  It  came  from  our  sister  colony  in  the  East,  and  unnd  you  to  make  a 
miracle  of  it,  I  .say  the  one  lieing  areat  and  Riel  being  small,  I  will  f;;o  on  the  other 
side,  and  I  am  banished.  It  is  a  wonder,  I  did  not  take  and  go  to  ilexico.  Natu- 
rally I  went  to  tlie  States.  Amnesty  was  given  l)y  the  Secretary  of  State  at  Ottawa,  the 
party  wijo  treated  with  us.  That  is  no  amnesty.  It  is  an  insult  to  me,  it  lias  alwajs  been  an 
inijult  to  me.  I  said  in  Manitoba  two  years  ago  it  was  an  insult  and  I  considered  it  as  such. 
Uut  are  tlieiV  pr<iofs  tliat  an  iin]ierial  amnesty  lias  been  promised  ?  Yes  many,  Archbisliop 
Tacht^,  tlie  delegate  who  liad  been  called,  the  pi'elate  who  has  been  caUed  from  Itome,  to  come 
and  pacify  tlie  Xorth-West  received  a  commission  to  make,  to  accoinplisli  that  paciticatiou 
and  in  !,'eueral  terms  was  written  his  commission,  and  when  he  came  to  tlie  North-We.st 
before  I  send  deb-gates  lie  said  :  I  will  give  you  my  word  of  lioiipr  as  a  deb'gati",  tliat 
tliere  will  lie  an  Imperial  amnesty,  not  because  I  can  promise  it  on  my  own  responsiliility 
but  because  it  lias  been  guaranteed  toi'  me  by  the  representatives  of  tlie  Crown,  and  flie 
Ministers  themselves,  the  Ministers  of  the  Crown.  Instead  of  an  imperial  amnesty  cai'.'5 
the  amnesty  of  wliich  I  spoke,  and,  besides,  an  amnesty  which  came  live  years  too  late,  and 
which  took  the  trouble  of  banishing  me  for  live  years  more. 

Mr.  Justice  Ricuardson.     Is  tliat  all  ? 


PlusoxEH.     No.   Excuse  me  if  I  feel 
be   kind  enough  to, — But  the  last  clause 
the    Nortli-West 


weak  and  if  I  stop,  at  times,  I  wish  you  woulil 
»  of  the  Manitoba  Act  speaks  also  a  little  (li 
ry  Government  will  be   put   into    tiie  NortlJ- 


speak.s  that  a  temporary  tiovernment  will  be  put 
"West  until  a  certain  timej  not  more  than  live  year.s.  And;  gentlemen,  the  temjiorarv 
<TOi"ernment,  hoiv  long  has  it  lasted  now,'  How  long  has  it  existed  now?  For  tifteeji 
years  and  it  will  be  temporary  yet.  It  is  against  the  Manitoba  Act,  it  is  againsjt 
the  treaty  of  tiie  North-West,  that  this  North-West  Council  should  ciuitinue  to  1^ 
ill  existi'ncei  aiJd  against  the  sjiirit  of  the  understanding.  Have  I  anvthing  tii 
say  against  the  gentlfiiien  who  conij>o.se  the  North-West  Council  '/TTot  at  all,  nut  moi4< 
than  I  had  to  say  yesterday  agaiii.^  the  jury  and  to  say  against  the  oliicials  (jf  this  Couix 
■\vliom  I  respect  all,  but  I  spt-ak  of  the  institutions.  No,  I  speak  of  the  institutionsi 
of  the  NorthWcpt,  the  Mauitolia  treaty  has  not  been  fulfilled,  neither  in  icuard  to  me, 
.iif-ither  in  regard  to  Lejiine.  Besides  the  ].opulation  of  the  Half-lnceds  who  w<'re 
in  the  tri>ubles  of  the  North  West,  in  Manitoba,  iu  liS70,  and  who  June  been  found  in 
tlie  troubles  of  the  North  We  it,  whit  right  had  ihey  to  be  there,  liave  they  not  received 
theintwo  hundivd  and  fortjf  acres  I  suppose  the  Half  breeds  in  Manitolia,  in  1.S70,  did 
ijot  tight  for  two  huiulred  aiiil  forty  acres  of  laud,  but  it  is  to  be  understood  that  there 
were  two  societies  who  treated  togetlier.  One  was  small,  but  in  it.s  smalliiess  it  had  its 
riglits.  The  Other  was  gre:i|t,  but  in  its  greatne.ss  it  hud  no  greater  rights  tliaii  the  rights 
of  the  small,  because  the  light  is  the  same  for  every  one,  and  when  tiiey  began  by 
treating  the  leaders  of  that  small  community  as  l)aiidits,  as  outlaws,  leaving  then  without' 
protection,    they    '■ ■••'  '   ''■•'■    -'-      ""        ■  i^     l-  .     .•  .    i  ..        ., 


they  (lisorg.iiiizi'd  tint  community.     The  right  of  nations  wanted  that  the 

treat}-  of  Manitoba  sh.dild  U;  fulfilled  tov.anls  (.he  lit;tle  community  of  Red  River,  in  the 

same  condition  that  they  w(iie  when  they  treated,  that  is  the  light  of  nations,  and  when 

tlie  treaty  would  have  been  fulfilled  towiirds  the  small  community  in  the  same  state  us  it 

.as  when  she  treated,  wlieiij  the  obligati.iiis  would  have  been  fullilled,  and  the  Half-breeda 

light  have  goni;  to  the  North  West,  the  Saskatchewiin  and  have  no  right  to  call  for  any 

ther  tbiuL's  for  themselves, !  although  they  had   tln^  right  to  lielj)  their  neighbours,  if  they 

hatif 


liave  been  fulfilled  towiirds  the  small  community  in  tin 
was  when  she  treated,  wlienj  the  obligati.iiis  would  have  been  fullilled,  an< 
in' 
ot 

thought  that  they  were  in  a|  bad  fix,  because  charity   isjalways  charity.      Now  I  .sav  tl 
tlie  peojile  of  ^Manitoba  lia\ie  not  been   satisfied,  nor  the  leaders  nor  the  jieople,  because 
'  during  tho.se  live  years  which  elapsed  between  1870  and  1875,  there  were  laws  made,  and 
those  h.ws  tliey  embraced  tlje  j/,  "pie,  the  Half-bi ,  ed  peojjle,  and  because  they  hiui  not  tlieii 
iight.s,  because  the  leaders  wtre  always  threatens. i  in  th-ir  existence.  The  people  tliem.selvt 
lid  not  feel  any  .se<;urity,  aifd  they  so^d    their  lands,  be  ause   they   thought    they  woul 

ands,  tiicy  s.ilj  i.icir  lands  bej.nise  they  saw  that  they  Uiv^  m 


i.ever  get,  first,  that  7tli  of 

liroteotioii,  and  they  went  Eist.  What  have  they  received  in  receiving  the  :.'40 

Lave  received  iMO  acres  of  1 


they  ha^  nj 
teres  ;  TI»^\| 


iiid  and  as  matter  offact  I  can  prove  that  by  circunistancei 


IGl 


iimiiy,  iiiif  Iiiilf  (if  tlieiii,  sold  for  one  Imlf  of  tht^  price  •S-'^O  or  S-tO,  sfiO  or  ^2").  And  to  show 
tlu-  stiito  ill  wliiili  tln'V  Imvc  lieeii  kejit,  tliose  who  coinf  from  the  Ke<l  River  and  the 
Iliilf  lirccds  of  Red  River,  who  were  in  the  Red  River  trouble  of  lf<70,  appeared  to  be  a 
wonder,  of  e;;otisni  and  of  unreasonableness,  because  they  ap|)eared  to  be  in  the  troubles 
of  i!Sf>.'),  which  are  the  continuation  of  the  trouliles  of  Red  River. 

The  amnesty  has  not  lieen  given  by  the  right  parties.     Amnesty  lias  not  bern  given 

to    Lepine,  one   of  the   lea<lers   who   was   then  as   Duniont  is  to  day   anil   myself.'     1  was 

allowed  to  come  back  into  the  country  when  ten  years  after  I  would  be  completely  deprivetl 

of  th(^  cliHiices  wliich  I  liad  in   1S70  to  do  .sontething  for  my  people  iuid  for  myself  and  for 

<MiiigVati(in,  so  as  to  cut  down  my    influence   forever.      It  is   why  I   did   not   come  at  tliat 

time,  and  1  thoui;ht  that  1   wimld  never  come  to  the  country.      I>i<l  1  take   my   American 

papers  ?  put  my  papers  of  americjin  naturalization  during  the  time  of  my  five  years  bani.sh-  • 

mont?   No,  I  did  not  want  to  jjive  to  the  States  a  citizen  of  banishment,  but  wlien my  ba- 

ydshmeut  had  e.\|«ii-ed  when  au'otticer  at  ISattleford  somewhere  on  this  side  of  the  line  in 

I'leiiton  invited  me  to  come  to  the  North  West,  I  said  ;  Xo,  1  will  i^o  to  an  American  Court 

will  declare  my  intention  now  that^l  am   free,  to  go   back   and  choose  another  land,  it 

[•ored    my    heart    to    say    tha,t    kind    of    adieu   to   my   mother,    to    my  brothers,   to    my 

sisters,  to    my    friends,  to   mi'    contrymcn    to  my  nati\'e  land,   but    1   felt   that   coming 

l)a<-k  to  this  country,  I  coidd  kiot  re-enter  it    without   protesting  against  all  the   injustice 

("hich  1  had  been  sullering  aiid  in  so  doing  it   was   rem^wing  a  ^trujigle   which  I   had   not 

■n  able  to  continue,  and  as  souiul  man  as  I  thought  1  was   I  thought  it  better  to  l>egin 

la  <-areer  on  the  other  side  of  the  line.      In  Manitoba  is  that  all  about  the  anniesty  ?    No. 

[.My  share  of  the  1.400,000  nivfs  of  land  liavt:  I  received  it?    Xo,  1  have  not  received  it. 

.Mv   fiiend.s,  my  mother  have  applie<l  to  have  it,  N'o.    ('ould  not  e\ery  «nieelse  apply  for 

theirs.'  Father,  mother  would  apply  for  their  sons,  and.that  was  all  right,  but  for  my  mother 

I  to  apply  for  me,  it  v.  as  not.  I  did  not  get  it.  Last  year,  there  was  a  ])ronf  here  in  the  bo.\  not 

long  aj^o,  that  when  I  asked  an  iiidenndty  I  was  refused.  Was  that  indemnity  basetl  on  a 

fancy  .'  I  wanteil  my  lands  in  .Manitoba  to  be  jiaid.  liesides  when  they  treated,  the  treatv 

was  comjjleted  on  ."list  May  lS7U,  it  was  agreed  toon  tin;  '.Mth  June  and  Sir(!eo.  ('artier  had 

said  :    "  Let   liiel  govern  the  countiy  until  the  troopi  get  there."   And  from  the  L'  ttli  June  ' 

to  the  L':ird  August  I  go\erned  the  country  intact.    .Vndwhat  was  the  ri^ward  for  it  ?  \\  lieu 

the  glorious  general  Wolseley  came,  he  ri'Waided   me  in  saying  Itii  I  s  banditti  has  taken 

tlight,  anil  he  wanted   to  come  during  the   night  at    niiilniglit   .io  as  to  have  a   chance  to 

raisi'a  row  in  Fort  (iarryand  to  ha\  e  the  i,dory  to  call  lor  in  the  m  jrniug,  but  liea\  en  was 

against  him  then.      It  rained  so  much  that  he  coidd  not  get  tlu're   duriiii;   the   ni<;ht   and 

he  hail  to  come  at  ten  o'clock   next  niorniiig,  he  entered  one  door  of  Ft.  (iarry   while  I, 

left  the  other,  I  kept  in  sight  of  liiin,  I  was  small  1  did  not  want  to  be  in  his  road,  but  as 

I  know  tlirit  he  had  good  eyes  I  say  I  will  keep  at  a  distance  where  1  can  be  seen,  and  if 

he  wants  to  have  me  lie  will  come,  a  (ieiieral  knows  where  his  enni^niy  is,  ought  to  know 

a<i(l  1  ke|it  about  ;100  yards  alieail  of  him.    While  he  was  saying  that   liiei's  banditti  had 

taken  lliglit,  Iviel  was  very  near.   That  has  been  my  reward.  Wlen  i  speak  of  an'indemnity 

QL.-^.'t."),<ii|tl  to  call  for  something  to  comjilete  tlie  .■r'10U,(H)0,    1  ilont   believe  that    I   am 

!  e4ai;eiatini,'  your  Honor.    In  l!S71  the  Fenians  caiiie  in  I'embina.   .Major  Irvine,  one  •  it  the 

\Vitnesses,   I  was   introduced  to  him.    -Vnd  when  1  brought    to   the   tioM-rnment    -.'>U   men, 

I  (lOMMiior  Archibald  was  there  anxious  to  have  my  help  because  he  knew  irhat  we  Were  the 

[door  to  Manitoba,  and  he  .said  as  thy  i|iiestion  of  amnesty  came,. he  said  :  •■  Jf  Riel  comes 

[forward,  we  will  piotect  him,  "  pour  la  circoiistaiice  actuelle,'  we  will  protect  liim,as  lonjf 

las  we  need  him.  we  will  protect  him,  but  as  soon  as  we  dont  want  him,  as  soon  as  we  won't 

Iiieed  him,  we  want  him  to  fall  back  in  the  same  position  as  he  is  to  day    .    And  that  an.vwer 

Iliad  been  brought    because  it   had    been    represented   that   while  I   would  be  helping  tlie 

jOovernment    the  parties  would  be   trying   to  shoot   me   in   the  back  ;   ■"  Pour  hi   circons- 

jtaiice  act  uelle'.t  hey  said,  "we  will  protect  him  '.  What  reward  have  1  had  for  that  .•*  The  first 

reward  that  I  had  was  that  that  took  place  in  the  tirst  days  of.  Octolier  lt!71    before  the 

[year  was  ended.    Of  course  they  gave  a  chance  to  Riel  to  come  out,  a  rebel  liad  a  chance 

I  to  lie  loyal  then.      .My  friend,   my  glorious    friend  in  Upper  Canada,  now  the  leader  of 

I  the  opposition,  Mr.  Blake  said  :  "We  must  prevent  Riel  from  arriving.'  When  he  was  Minis- 

11 


102 


ter  in  Upper  Canada  he.  issued  a  proclaiuation  of '8"), 000  for  tlisse  wlio  would  arrest 
Riel.  Tliiit  was  my  reward,  my  dowry.  liut  tlie  (Janadiaii  ( Jovernin^nt  what  rew.iid  did 
they  -.'ive  me?  In  the  next  year  tliere  was  j^oinj;  to  )je  an  election,  1H72.  If  Kiel  remains 
in  the  eounti-y  for  the  elections  it  will  he  trouhle  and  he  has  a  ri<,dit  to  spi-ak,  we  have 
)i)ade  a  treaty  with  Iiim,  We  do  not  fulKl  it,  we  promise  liini  anniesty,  he  is  outlawed,  we 
take  his  country  and  he  lias  no  room  even  to  sleep,  he  comes  to  our  help  lie  ^'overns  the 
country  during  two  months,  and  the  reward  is  that  he  is  a  handitti,  he  comis  to  the  help 
of  the  (iovern'ment  with  two  hundred  and  tity  men,  and  the  reward  is  five  thousand 
dollars  for  his  head.  It  is  at  that  time  that  I  tof)k  the  name  of  David,  and  I  did  not 
take  it  iif  my.self,  the  honorahle  Judge  of  the  court  of  Manitolia,  M.  Duljuc  to  day,  is  th<'  one 
who  gave  me  the  nami'  of  ])a\i(l.  When  1  had  to  hide  myself  in  the  woods,  and  when  he 
wanted  t"  write  me  under  the  name  whi<-li  would  not  he  known,  so  that  my  letters  could 
eome  to  me,  and  I  may  say  that  iii  that  way  it  is  a  legal  name.  From  that  |>oint  nf  view 
e\en,  and  I  put  in  a  parenthesis.  Why  !  I  have  a  right,  I  think,  as  a  souvenir  of  my  fi'iiiuL 
in, Upper  Canada,  wlio  caused  tin-  cir<umstanees,  who  brought  me  that  name,  to  niak*^*^ 
something  spe<ial  aliout  it,  and,  liesides,  when  the  king  of  Judea  was  speaking  of  the  pi-Jd 
lilic  scr\  ices  of  David's,  didn't  he  use  to  refer  to  him  in  that  way.  Yes  he  did  and  al 
homething  .similar,  I  thought  that  it  was  only  jiroper  that  I  should  t:\ke  the  name 
"  Daviil  ',  liut  it  was  suggested  tome  in  a  mighty  manner,  anrl  I  could  not  a\<iid  it. 

The  Canadian  <>overninent  said:  ''Well.  Riel  will  he  in  the  elections  here  and  he  will 
have  all  the  right  with  all  tliose  grievances  to  speak,  and  he  will  emiiarass  the  ( lovernnient.'f' 
JSo  thev  lalled  upon  my  great  jaotcctor  Arcldiislifip  Taclii',  and  they  said  ti>  .Vrchljisho]" 
Taili.-  I  don't  know  what,  hut  in  the  month  of  Feliruary  '7-,  .Vichliishnp  Tachc  came  U*- 
nie,and  s  lid  :  ''The  authorities  of  Lowei-  Canada  want  you  to  go  on  the  other  side  of  tlujiV 
lini-  until  the  crisis  is  ])a.s.sed."  '■  Well,  I  said,  if  the  crisis  was  c(tncernin'.'  nie  only,  it  wouhPf' 
he  my  interest  to  go  there,  hut  I  am  in  a  crisis,  wliicli  is  the  crisis  of  the  peopli>  of  tln'U 
country,  and  as  it  concerns  the  ])ul)lic  hesides  me  I  will  speak  to  the  puhlic,as  the  puhlitr' 
are  speaking  to  uie."  I'ut  the  .Vrchln.-^hop  ga\  e  .such  good  reasons  that  although  l¥' 
could  not  yield  to  the.se  reasons,  F  came  to  a  conclusion  with  hiui  and  I  said:  "  .My  Lord,!' 
you  have  titles  to  my  acknowleilgcment  which  shall  ne\c'r  he  hjotted  out  of  my  heart,  ■ 
and  altliciigh  njy  judgment  in  this  matter  altogether  dilfers  witli  yours,  I  don't  consider 
my  judgment  ahove  yours,  and  what  seems  tnl  me.  rea.son  ihle  might  he  more  rea.sonahle  ; 
althougli  I  think  my  course  of  action  rea.sonidjh',  perhaps  yours  is  more  reasonahle."  I 
said;  "It  you  connnand  uie  as  my  Archhisho])  to  go  ami  take  on  your  shoulders  the 
resj)oiisjliiiity  of  leaving  my  ))eople  in  the  crisis,  I  will  go,  Itut  let  it  he  known  that  it 
^  is  not  my  word,  that  I  do  it  to  please  you,  and  only  after  you  command  me  to  do  it  —  to 
sliow  that  in  politics  when  I  am  contradicted,  1  can  gi\e  way.' 

And  they  ort'er  me  10  pounds  a  month  to  stay  on  the  other  side  of  the  line.  1  .said  to 
"liis  Lordshij);  "I  have  a  chance  here  in  Manitohaand  I  want  something."  He  asked  me  how 
much  I  wanted,  "and  I  .said  :   "How  long  do  you  want  me  to  st;iv  away  .' "  ''  Well,  he  said, 
perhaps  a  year.'  "T  tell  you  heforehand  that  I  want  to  lie  here  during  the  elections."  That  is 
what  I  asserted  ;  •'!  want  lo  lie  here  riuiingthe  elections'.  .\nd  it  was  agrf^l  that  they  would 
give  ."^OO 'pounds:   400  iKumds  to  ]..i''iiiiie  and  400  pounds  to  me  :   :iOO  pounds  to  me  |i«'r- 
.sqnnally,   300  jiounds  for    Le]iine  ;    100  pounds  for  my  family,    100  pounds  for  Lepine's' 
family,    that   makes   ."^00   pounds.      And   how  was  it  agned   that  I  should  receive  that' 
money  '.  I  said  to  his  Lonlship:    "The  Camidian  ( ioveiinneiit  owe  me  money, they  lihel  me 
an<l  even  on  the  ipiesiion  of  lihel,  they  do  it  so  cleirly  that  it  docs  not  mean  any  tiial  t 
come  to  judgment ;  they  ha\  e  judgment  and  will  they  make  \i.se  of  it  ?  They  owe  me  some^ 
thing  for  my  re[iutation  that  thi^y  aliuse  every  day,  hesides   1    have  done  work  and    tin 
have  never  ))ai<l  me  for  it  ;  1  will  take  that  money  as  an  account  of  what  they  will  havt 
to  ))ay  me  one  tlay".  It  «as  agri'i'd  in  that  maimer,  and  the  money  was  given  lo  me  in  thii 
cliHl>el  of  St.  V'ital  in  the  presence  of  Mr.  I)uhuc.  Judue  now,  and  wheir  -I  did  not  l.nov 
at  that  time  where  the  money  came  from     and  when  the  little  sack  of  .lOt)  |.oundsof  gold 
was  handed  to  me  there  on  the  tahle,  1  said  to  His  Lordshi|i  ;  "  .My  Lord,  ir  the  one  wh 
wants  nn--  to  go  away  was  here,  and  if  I  had  to  treat  him  as  he  is  tryinji-  lo  treat  me,  tliij 
little,  sack  of  gold  ought  logo  to  his  head."    That    was   m\    lust  protest  al  that  time.   U 


f 


163 


^7 


>'< 

.11-; 
\v 

^ . 
1 1 

V 

I.! 
I 


lieforc  the  election  public  ojiiiiion  was  so  excited  u;;aiii-it  the  one  that  had  taken  the  res- 
ponsiliility  of  advisiiij,'  my  leaviiiij^hat  he  called  lue  hack,  and  diirinj;  the  election  I  was 
present.  I  was  three  nioie  years.  To-day  I  am  rewarded  for  what  1  have  done  through 
the.se  three  years.  Sir  (!eor<;e  C'artier,  in  1872,  ju.st  in,  that  summer,  was  l)eaten  in 
■Montreal — I  speak  of  him  not  as  a  man  of  party,  I  sju'ak  of  him  as  a  Canadian,  as  a 
public  man — he  was  beaten  by  -Mr.  J<-tte  \<y  llfOO  nuijority,  and  they  caiue 
to  mi'.  My  eh^ction  wius  sure  in  Provenclier,  1  had  l."i  or  I'l)  men  ajfainst  me  and  they 
came  to  me;  "Kiel,  do  you  want  to  resi-^n  your  seat.'"  "l  have  not  it  yet."  "Oh,  well,  you  are 
sure  to  ;;et  it,  allow  Sir  (ieortje  Ktienne  ('artier  to  be  elected  here  ".  Ami  1  said,  ves,  to 
•  show  that  if  I  had  at  the  time  any  inclination  to  become  insane,  when  1  was  i-ontradicted 
in  ])olitics.  liut  I^ower  ( 'anada  has  more  than  paid  me  for  tli(^  little  consideration,  <;reat 
was  my  consideration,  but  that  little  uiark,  1  consider  it  a  little  mai^  of ,  consideration,  a 
little  mark  of  a  ;;reat  consideration  for  them. 

The  people  of  Manitoba  hadn't  their  j;o\  eminent  innuijurated  at  that  time,  fhevhad 
a  sham  ;{overnment,  it  was  to  bi'  erected,  to  be  inaui-urated  after  1^71,  after  the  1st  of 
•lanuaiy  IK71,  but  we  went  on  in  1S74  and  it  was  not  inauj;ura(ed,  as  lonj;  as  Kiel  was 
there,  with  hi->  popularity.  If  tlii'  proper  institutions  had  been  iiiauijurated  Kiel  would 
have  come  in  tin-  House,  tlie  l'ro\incial  House  and  of  course  it  was  considered  to  be  a 
(lama;;e.  So  to  keep  me  baik  they  did  not  ;,'ive  the  peopltvtheir  rii,'ht.s,  when  it  was  consti- 
tutionnally  aj^reedthey  shoidil  have  done.  I  strii,s;i,'led  not  only  for  myself,  but  l  struy;irle(l 
for  the  rij,'hts,  for  the  inau^'uration  of  the  jirinciples  of  res[.onsible  and  ton.stitu- 
tional  gov  eiiuueiil  in  Afanitoba.  That  was  consi(Iere<l  about  tlie  time  that  1  was  banished. 
While  I  was  in  the  Tnited  States,  was  I  very  happy  ?  Yes,  I  was  very  happy  to  tind  a 
refu;;e,  but  I  have  mi-t  men  w  ho  ha\  e  come  to  me  --eveictl  times  and  say  :  "Here  !  Look  out ! 
Here  is  a  man  on  the  other  side  of  the  line  and  he  is  trvinij  to  have  a  revenj;e  at  you, 
wiien  you  i.'o  water  your  horse."  I!ecau.-.e  they  iiad  left  stains,  as  much  as  possibh-,  on  my 
name,  1  louUl  not  even  water  my  hor.^e  on  the  .Missouri,  without  bi'iiii,'  ijuarded  a;,'ainst 
those  who  wanted  iiiy  life,  and  it  is  an  irony  for  me  that  I  should  be  called  |)a\id.  Last 
year,  when  I  was  in\  ited  instead  of  lomini,'  to  l4iis  country,  I  eould  with  the  [>l.in  that 
has  ap|ieii-ed  to  me,  I  could  ha\  e'communicaled  with  the  Keniu'n  oiLCanization,  1  could 
haM-  sent  my  ii.  ok,  I  did  not  do  it.  and  as  a  proof  of  it,  while  1  ha\e  no  means  at  all  to  com- 
municate with  my  brother,  yoii  will  see  in  .Manitolia  lettcMs  to  my  brother  .biseph,  where 
1  speak  i<»J/fny  b. lok,  that  I  coold  j;et  any  amount  of  money  for  that  book,  if  I  wished  it  to 
be  published,  but  I  thoULjht  that  there  was  a  better  chance  on  this  side  of  the  line. 
And  what  chance  is  it  '  What  I  said,  constitutionally  speakini;,  if  Kiel  succeeds  that  he 
shouhl  one  day,  as  a  public  man,  invite  emi;.'ration  from  ditt'ereiit  parts  of  ditl'eieut 
countries  of  the  world,  and  because  the  Xoi-th  West  is  acknowledged  to  lie  partly  his  own 
as  a  Half  liri'eil  of  this  population,  and  make  bar;^ains  for  tliis  North-West  here  with  tlie- 
Canadian  i,'o\ernnn<nt  in  such  a  way,  so  that  when  the  Hni,'iish  population  has  had  a  full 
anil  reasonable  .-.haie  of  this  land,  other  nationalities  with  w  litHii  we  are  in  sympathy  should 
have  also  their  share  of  it.  When  we  i.'ave  the  lands  of  .Manitoba  for  one  .sevenfh,  we  did  not 
e.xplain.  We  )(a\e  it  to  the  Canadian  <  iovernment,  but  in  i;i\  ini,'  it  to  the  Canadian  ( iovern- 
ment  it  does  not  mean  that  we  ija\e  it  —with  all  the  respect  that  I  have  for  the  Kn'j;lish 
j)opulation  -to  the  -ViiuloS  i\on  race.  We  did  not  ;,'ive  it  only  to  the  .\ni;l<>  Sa\on  raie.There 
is  the  Irish  in  the  Ivist  and  the  French  in  the  west,  and  their  proportion  in  the  Canadian 
jiovernnient  oiiirht  to  receive  a  n-asonaiile  proportion  of  this  land  which  is  boui,dit  here, 
and  it  is  hardly  the  same  to  ;,'ive  to  some  Kiench  Canadian^ in  the  North-West,  and  uoi'ie 
at  all  to  the  Irish,  i  don  t  speal>  here  to  call  the  symp.itli(es,  because  1  am  .sentenced,  I 
speak  soiind  .sense.  I  followed  the  line  of  natural  and  reasonable  .syiiipalliie.s,  but  behind 
my  tliou'.{lit,  perhaps  you  would  be  inclined  to  believe  that  it  is  a  way  for  me  to  try  to 
Work  against  the  Kmilisli.  Xo,  I  don't.  I  believe  that  the  Knijlisk  constitution  i^  an 
institution  which  has  bc,-n  perfected  for  the  nations  of  the  world,  and  while  I  speik  of 
ha\  iiif^  in  future,  if  not  iluriii:;  my  lifetime,  after  it,  of  having  dill'ereiit  natioiialitie-,  in  the 
North-W  est  here,  my  ho]ie  tliat  they  can  succeed  is  that  they  will  lia\e  li.'ie  aiiu'liu  them 
the  j,'real  .Vpj^lo-.SaMin  race,  as  amoiiL;  the  nations  of  Lurope.  Twd  thousand  years  a«;o, 
the  Koinan    p.-ople   were   the   leading   race    ailil  were   teachiiiLf  to  tin;  other   nations   uooil 


^ 


164 


;;<iv«>riiiiipiit",  that  is  my  opinion  of  tlie  Anglo-Saxon  lace.  1  am  not  insane  enougli  to 
re-^rt't  the  j;i'<'ut  f^lory  of  th«-Anf{lo-Saxon  race,  (iod  lias  j^iven  it  to  tliat  race,  and  when 
(i<Kl  j{i\t's  .something  to  somelnjiiy,  it  is  for  a  good  jiurjiose  and  if  (iod  gave  great 
glory  to  England,  it  is  because  he  wanted  the  Anglo-Saxon  race  \to  work  for  his  own 
glorv,  and  1  su()|>ose  it  is  not  tinished  yet:  tlie^  will  continue.  The  ronian  einjiire  at  the 
time  of  tiie  decay,  exi.sted  four  hundied  yearsjstill  as  the  King 

The    Anglo-Saxon,     the    British    Emjiira   if    It     has   gone    to    its   highest  point   of 
glory     may     lie    <  ailed     tlie     king,    liut     it    is    .so    great    it    will    take    many //JVimdred 
yeai-s  and  fully  as  many  as  400  years   to   lo.sents   prestige  and  iluring   that   time    1   lio|>o 
that   this   great  North- West   with    Jiriti.sh   injHuence  will   hy   the    immigration   of  which 
I  speak.  I'each  good  government.     Hut  will  I  show  insanity  in  lioping  tliat  that  plan  will 
l>e  fullille<l  ;  I  will  speak  of  the  wish  of  my  heart.    I  have  lieen,  in  what  is  called,  as.serted 
to  be  wrong  to  day,  I  have  Ih'cii   proved  to  be  the  leader,    I    hope  that   before   long    that 
Very  same  thing  Which   was  said  wrong  will    be   known    as  good    and    then  I  will  reiriaii " 
the  leader  of  it  and  as  tlie  lea<ler  of  what  ]  am  doing  I  say  my   heart  will  ne\er  abandoi 
fhe  idea  of  haxing  a  new  island  in  the  Xorth-West,  by  constitutioiuil  means,  in\iting  ■''>■•' 
Irish  of  the  other  side  of  the  sea  t(j  conu-   and    have  a  share  here  ;  a ,  new    Piilan<l  in  tin 
North-We.st,  by  the  same  way;  a  new  Havaria,  in  tlie  same  way  ;  a  new  Italy  in  the  sanu 
way.  And  on  the  other  side  in  Manitoba      and  since  .Manitoba  has  been  erected  it  has  ln'cn] 
increased    since    1870,    at  least    by    "J,(J0l),O00   acres    of    land,  now    it    is    ',M1,()(M),0()U    .say 
there  i>  about  !<G, 000,000,  acres    of   land    to    which    the    Half-breeds    title    has   not     been 
extingui.shed.    Oneseventli   gives  12,000,000,  of    tlio.se  lands      and    I    want   Krcnch-( 'iina 
diaiis  to  <ome  lind  lielj)  us  there  to-tlay,  to-morrow  I  don  t  know  when.  1  am  called  here  to 
answer  for  my  life  to  ha\e  time  that  1  should  make  my  testimony.  Anil  on  the  other  sidi 
of  the  mountain  tlurejire  Indians,  as  i  have  said,  and  Half-breeds  and  there  is  a  beautiful 
island  Vancouver  and   1   think  the    llelgiaifc  will    Ih<^  liajipy  there  aaiil  the  .lews  who  an 
looking  for  a  country  for  li^lJO  years,  the  knowleil^'c   of  whicji   the   niitions  have  not  Iieen 
able  to  Sttain  yet,  while  they  are  rich  and    the   funis  of  tinuiice.     Perhajis  will    they  hear 
my  voice  one  day  and  on  the  oilier  side  of  the  iiioMirtains    while  tlie   waves  of  the  Pacific 
will  chant  sweet  music  for  them  to  console   their   hearts  for  the   mourning  of  1.MO0  years, 
perhai)S  will  they  say  :  He  is  the  one  thought  of  u.>  in  the  whole  Cree  world  and  if  they  jielp 
ustliereun  the  other  side  between  the  great  Pacific  and  the  great  Rockies  to  liaNc  a  share, 
the  .lews  from  the  States  I   No,  what  I  wish  is  the    natural   coiir.se  of   immigralion  that  is 
what' 1  want. -My  thougls  are  fur  ]ieace.     j)iiring  tin    (i()  days  that  I  have  been  at  Jiutoche  * 
1  told  you  yesterday  that  they  were  three  delegations  aiipuinteil  by  the  ex-ovede  to  send  on  '' 
the  other  side /or  helji,  but  there  I  did  not  .see  the  .safety  that  i  \sas  looking  foi-.  not  that  1 
distrust  my  yountrymen  ;  but  such   a  great  revolution  will  bring  imiiien.se   ilisasters  and  I 
don  t  want  dVring  njy  life  to  bring   disasters  except  those  which  I  am   Ijuunil  to  bring  to  > 
defend  my  own  life  and  to  avoid,  to  take  away  from  my  country  ilisasters  which  threaten 


) 


1 


me  and  my  friends  and  those    who  lia\e  contiileiice  in   nie.    XwA  I  don  l  abandon  my  an 
cestors  either.  The   acknowledgement  that  I   liave   for  my  am-estors,   my  ancestors  were  I 
aiiioijg  those  who  came  from  Scandinavia  and  the  liritisli  [slands  lOOO  years  ago,  some  of   1 
them  went  to  Limerick   and  were   called    Kiel.son   and  then    cros.sed    in    (."anada   anil  they  '' 
w  ere  called  Kiel,  .so  in  nie  there  is  the  Scandinavian  and  »  ell  rooted  there  is  the  I  risli,  and  ^ 

-  there  is  the  French  and   there  is   some   Indian   blood.    The  Scandinavians  if  possible  they -^ 
will  have  a  share,  it  is  my  plan  it  is  one  of  the  illusions  of  my  in.sanily,  if  1  am  insane,  thai  ' 
they  should  have  on  the  other  side  of  the  mountain  a  new  Norway,  a   hew  Uenmark  and'' 
a  new  Sweden  .so  that   those  who   spoke   of  the    lands   of  the  great  North  West   to   be 
divided  in  .seven  forgot  that  it  was  in  ten,  the  French  in  Manitoba,  the  iiavarians  the  Ita- 
lians the  Poles  and  the  Irish  in  the  Nort.h-West  and  then  live  on  the  other  side  too. 

I  have  wj-itten  those  things.  Since  i  am  in  jail,  those  things  have  pas.sed  through  the  '• 

'.^hands  of  Captain  Dean.  There  they  are  in  the  hands  of  the  Lieutenant  (!overnor,  and '^ 
something  of  it  has  reached  Sir  John,  I  think,  I  don't  know.  I  did  hide  my  thoughts,  l'' 
want  through  the  channel  of  natural  emigration  or  peaceful  emigration,  through  the  f 
channel  of  constitutional  means  to  .start  the  idea  ami  if  ))0.ssible  to  inaugurate  it,  but  if  I' 
J  can't  do  it  during  my  life,  I  lelive  the  ideas  to  be  fullilled  in  the  future  and  if  it  is  not 
\ 


A 


> 


k;.-) 


•\ 


j>ossililc,  you  arf!  rca-ioiialdo  uifu  and  you  know  that  tlic  [)laus  tliat  I  proiM)se  are  of 
ail  iniiiioiisf'  iiitorost  and  if  it  is  not  if  tliat  jicaceful  uhannfl  of  Pini^'ratioii  is  not  open  to 
those  raees  into  tlie  Nortli-West,  tliey  are  in  suf)i  number  in  tlie  States  tliat  when  vou 
.<'xpei't  it  least  tliey  will  perhaps  try  to  come  on  your  borders  and  to  look  at  the  land 
whether  it  is;  worth  ]>ayin;f  a  \isit.or  not,  that  is  thn  one-seventh  of  the  lands,  that  is 
nhout  the  one-se\enth  of  <he  lands.  So  you  see  that  liy  the  very  nature  of  the  evidence 
wliicli  has  lieeh  jfiveu  here  wlien  the  witnesses  speak  of  the  one-seventh  of  tlie  lands, 
that  very  same  (juestion  orii;iiiates  frfnii  li^ZO,  from  the  tiouMes  nf  Ited  l'i\cr,  whifih 
ln-ouj^ht  a  treaty  where  the  onc-se\eiitli  of  the  lands  took  its  e\isteii:e.  and  I  ^;iv  that  if 
this  court  tries  me  for  what  lias  taken  plai  e  into  tlie  North- West,  tliey  are  tiyinj;  ine 
for  soiiietliiii;;  which  was  in  existence  liefoie  them.  This  Court  was  iidt  in  existence  when' 
the  dirticiilties  of  which  we  speak  now  in  the  Saskatchewan  tieniin.  it  is  the  dirticulties 
»if  'ti',1  and  what  I  .say  is  I  «  isli  that  I  have  a  trial.  My  wi-,li  i-,  this.  Your  lloii'irs,  tliat 
a  commis^i(ln  he  ai)poiiitcd  liv  the  proper  aiithnrities,  hut  amoii;;s(  the  proper  authoritie.s 
of  course  I  count  the  I'lniili^h  authoritiis,  tliat  is  the  first  pn'p,r  authi>i  itics,  thar  a  com- 
mission he  appointed^  that  that  coniiiiission  examines  into  this  (|uestion  or  if  they  are 
appointed  to  tiy  me,  if  a  special  trihunal  is  ap]ioiiited  to  try  me.  that  I  am  tried  tirst  on 
this  ipiestion  :  lias  Hiel  relielled  in  ti!'  .'  2nd.  question  :  Was  Hiel  a  muiderer  of 
Tliouias  Si-ott,  when  Thomas  Scott  was  executed  ?  .Srd.  ipiestion  :  When  Kiel  receive<l 
the  money  from  Archhishop  Tache  reported  to  he  the  money  of  Sir  John,  was  it 
corru])tioii  money  .'  4th  When  Hiel  seizj-d  witli  the  diuncil  of  Ked  Hiver  on  the  jiro- 
perty  of  the  lluilson  Hay.  ( "oy  ,  if  he  did  a  common  jiilla^^e  .'  When  Hiel  was  e.x|iellwl 
from  the  House  as  a  fiii;ili\e  of  ju-tice  in  1.^74,  was  he  a  fui,'iti%e  of  justice,  as  at 
that  time  lie  had  tliroii',di  the  inemher  for  llochela<,'a  now  in  Canada,  and  tliroU!,'h 
Dr.  Kiset  had  coiiiniiinicatioii  with  the  ( iovernmeiit,  hut  anotlier  time  throuirh  the 
ineiiilier  for  l|ocliela^;a,   .\It.  Alphon^c  I  le^jaidiiis 

I  have  asked  from  the  .Minister  of  . Justice  an  interview  o(i  the  fourth  of  March,  and 
that  inti'iview  was  lefiised  to  me.  In  the  month  of  -Vprjl,  I  was  expelleil  from  the 
HoiiM'  I.epine  was  arrested  in  IST.i,  and  1  was  not,  not  li^tause  they  did  not  want  to 
take  me.  .And  while  I  was  in  the  woods  waitin<,'  for  my  electifui,  Sir  John  sent  parties  to 
me  otlerin;;  me  .■s:i.'t.O()ll  if  T  would  leave  the  lountry  for  tliiee^years,  and  if  that  wa<  not 
enoii^di  to  .say  what  I  wanted,  and  that  I  mii,dit  take  a  triji  over  the  water  lie.-.idis  and 
over  the  world.  At  the  time  I  refuseil  it.  This  is  not  the  tirst  time  that  the 
.^'.S.i.OlH)  comes  u]>,  and  if  at  that  time  [  refused  it,  was  it  not  rea.sonahle  lor  me  tliUt  I 
should  think  it  a  sound  .souvenir  to  Sir  John  .'  Am  I  insultiu); .'  Xo,  I  do  not  insult. 
You  don't  mean  to  insult  me  when  you  declare  me  guilty,  you  aiH  according  to  yjoiir 
convictions.  |  also  act  iiccordiii}?  to  mini'.  1  speak  true.  I  say  they  should  try  iiitf  on 
tjiis  c|ue?,tion  :  Whether  I  i-el.elled  in  the  Saskatchewan  inilS,S.^.  There  is  another 
ijuestiou  I  want  to  liavf  on  trial.  I  wish  to  ha\e  a  trial  that  would  cover  the  .space  of 
tifteen  yi-ars  on  which  puMic  ojiinion  is  not  satisfied.  I  have,  without  mcaniin;  any 
oti'eiice,  I  have  heard  w  ithout  meaiiiny'  anv  otience,  when  1  spoke  of  one  of  the  artiisles  I 
iiienlioiied,  some  gentlemen  liehind  me  .savini;.  \  es  he  was  a  munlerer.  \  ou  see  what 
remarks  I  It  shows  there  is  soiucthinj,'  not  told.  If  tolil  liy  Liw  it  wiaild  nor  I.e  said. 
I  wish  to  ha\e  my  trial,  as  I  am  tried  for  hotli,  and  as  I  am  tiieil  lor  my  career  I  wish 
my  i-areer  sliouUI  he  tried,  iiiit  the  last  j<art  of  it  On  the  other  side  1  am  iheclared  to 
lie  j,'itilty  of  liiirli  trea.son  and  I  •,'i\c  myself  as  a  jirophet  of  the  new  world.  If  1  am  u'nilt.v 
of  liijih  treason  1  say  I  am  the  pro|'het  of  the  new  wurld.  1  wish  that  while  a  commis- 
sion sits  on  one  .side,  a  eoiiiinission  of  doctois  should  also  sit  and  examine  fully  whether  I 
am  sane,  wliethei;  I  am  a  prophet  or  not.  Not  insanity,"  U-cause  it  is  dispo.sed  of,  hut 
xrhetlier  I  am  a  deceiv^'r  or  an  impostor.  I  ha \e said  to  my  lawyers  :  ••  1  haviMvrittcn  things 
which  were  .said  to  me  last  ni;;ht,  and  which  have  taken  place  to-day."  I  said  that  liefore 
the  (.'ourt  opened  last  nit;ht  the  spirit  that  ifi'ides  and  assists  me  tohl  ine  :  "  The  Court  will 
make  an  ethirt.  '  Your  Honor,  allow  me  to  .speak  of  your  iliarue,  wliiili  ajijiciii'd  tome 
to  j;o  on  one  side.  The  ('ourt,  made  an  eti'ort,  and  I  think  that  word  was  justified.  .\t  the 
.same  time  there  was  another  thin<;  said  to  me  :  "  .\  conimis.sion  w  ill  sit  ;  there  w  ill  lie  a 
comniis.sion.  1  did  not  hear  yet  that  a  commission  is  to  take  place.  I  a.sked  for  it. 
You  will  see  if  1  am  an  impostor  tiierehy       The  doctors  will  say,    when    1   sin-ak   of   these 


/  180 

The  fifth  section  of  the  statute  thus  having  been  complied  with  as  to  the  form  of  the 
charge,  the  hiw  is,  that  inferior  courts  lUust  sliow  their  jurisdiction  on  tlie  face  of  their 
proceedings  ;  but  tlie  contrary  is  the  law  in  the  case  of  superior  courts.  A  court  ha\ing 
jurisdiction  to  try  a  man  for  high  treason  and  felonies  punishable  witli  death,  cannot  be 
called  an  inferior  court  ;  and  this  court  has  all  the  incidents,  appertaining  to  a  superior 
court,  and  if  the  only  court  in  the  North-West  Territories. 

"The  courtVonstituted  under  the  North- West  Territories  Act  of  18H0,  being  a  superior 
court,  need  noj  show  jurisdiction  on  the  face  of  its  proceedings.  The  authorities  cited  to 
maintain  the-position  were  of  inferior  jurisdiction  and  are  not  applicable. 

On  the  7tli  may,  l!<t<0,  the  Dominion  Government,  by  tiie  Xortii-West  Territories 
Act,  constituted  the  Court  of  the  Queen's  Bench  of  .Manitol)a  a  Court  of  Appeal  in  res- 
pect to  offences  punishable  with  death. 

It  is  the  prisoner,  however,  who  appeals  to  us,  not  tlie  Crown,  and  he  can  hardly  be 
heard  to  object  to  tlie  jurisdiction  to  which  he  appeals. 

It  is  further  urged  that  tlie  stijiendiary  magistrate  did  not  take,  or  cause  to  be  taken, 
in  writing,  full  notes  of  the  evidence  and  other  proceedings  upon  the  trial. 

It  is  true,  the  evidence  producid  to  us  appears  to  have  been  taken  by  a  siioit  hand 
writer  ;  whether  the  stiiiendiury  magistrate  took,  or  caused  to  be  taken,  other  notes  in 
writing  after  the  trial,  in  pursuance  of  sul>section  7  of  section  70  of  the  Act,  does  not 
appear. 

It  is  the  prisoner,  for  it  is  his  api>eal,  who  furnishes  this  court  with  the  evidence 
upon  which  the  appeal  is  heard,  and  the  Crown  does  not  object  to  it. 

Unless  e.xpressly  I'eijuired  by  statute,  the  judge  who  tries  a  i-riniiiial  case  is  not 
Ijbund  to  take  clown  the  evidence,  and  wlieii  he  is  recjuired  to  do  so,  it  is, in  order  that  it 
may  be  forwarded  to  tlie  minister  of  Justice.  Sub  section  tive,  under  wliicli  tlie  trial  took 
place,  says  nothing  about  the  evidence,  but  sini]>iy  that  the  stipendiary  magistrate  and  a 
■justice  of  the  peace,  with  tiie  intervention  of  a  jury  of  six,  may  try  any  charge,  against 
any  person  or  persons,  for  any  crime. 

It  is  siib-section  seven  which  directs  the  stipendiary  magistrate  to  take  or  cause  to 
be  taken,  in  writing,  full  notes  of  the  evidence  and  other  proceedinus  thereat  ;  and  sub- 
section eight  enacts,  that  when  a  person  is  convi.ted  of  a  capital  olh-iuv,  anil  is  sentenced 
to  death,  the  stipendiary  magistrate  shall  forwanl  to  the  minister  of  Justice  full  notes 
of  the  evidence,  with  his  report  upon  the  case. 

•Suppose  the  notes  (jf  the  evidence  were  takiii  liy  a  sliort  hand   reporter,  iiiid   after- 
^^''fi^arcB^^itended  liy  him,  does  not  the  stipendiary  magistrate,  in  the  words  of  Wie  statute, 
"cause'to  be  taken  in  writing  full  notes  of  the  e\iili'nce."' 

I  am  of  opinion  tliat,yo/'  t/n-  /rial,  the  stipendiary  magistrate  is  not  bound  to  take 
down  the  evidence,  but  lie  is  bound  to  do  so  to  forward  the  same  to  the  minister  of 
Justice. 

In  >ny  opinion  there  is  no  departure  from  the  direction  of  the  statute.  He  does 
cause  them  to  lie  taken.  Tlie  directions,  first  to  take  them  by  short  hand,  and  then  to 
extend  them  by  writing,  is  all  one  direction,  or  causing  to  be  taken.  This  seems  to  me  a 
reasonable  compliance  with  the  reijuirements  of  sub-section  seven.  Is  it  not  too  rigid  a  '^ 
reading  of  the  statute  ^  say  that  the  writing  must  be  done  wliilst  the  trial  jirogresses.  f* 
Sub-section  eight  does  not  say  a  copy  shall  be  sent  to  the  minister  of  Justice,  but  "full 
notes  of-tlie  evidence  shall  be  sent  to  the  minister  of  Justice." 

Suppose  the  notes  of  the  evidence  were  burned  by  accident — would  the  prisoner  be  "' 
denied  his  appeal  ? 

The  Crown  has  not  objected  to  the  evidence  as  furnished  by  the  prisoner.     The    i- 
exception  is  purely  technical,  and  in  my  opinion  is  not  a  valid  one.  r 

A  good  deal  has  been  said  about  the  jurif  being  composed  of  six  only.     There  is  no 

law  which  says  that  a  jury  shall  invariably  consist  of  twelve  or  of  any  particular  numl^er.    •' 

lu  Manitoba,  in  civil  cases,  the  jury  is  composed  of  twelve,  but  nine  can  find  a  verdict.  ''^ 

In  the  North-West  Territories  Act,  the  Act  itself  declares  that  the  jury  shall  consist  of  " 

vpix,  and  thiswas  the  number  of  the  jury  in  this  instance.     Would  the  stipendiary  magis     Y 

pOVk  _  . 


.181 

tnite  have  been  justified  in  impannelling  twelve,  when  the  statute  directs  him  to  im- 
piinnel  six  only  ? 

It  was  further  comi)laintd  that  tliis  power  of  life  and  death  Was  too  great  to  be 
entrusted  to  a  stipendiary  niai-istrate. 

AVhat  are  the  safeguards  1 

Tin:  stipendiary  magistrate  must  lie  a  barrister  of  at  least  five  years  standing.  There 
must  be  associated  with  him  a  justice  of  the  peace,  and  a  jury  of  six.  The  court  must  be 
m  open  pulilic  court.  The  pri.soner  is  allQwed  to  make  full  answer  and  defence  by 
counsel. 

Section  77  permits  him  to  appeal  to  the  Court  of  Queen's  Bench  in  Manitoba,  when 
the  evidence  is  produced,  and  he  is  again  heard  by  counsel,  and  time  judijes  re-consider 
liis  case.  -  Again,  tlie  evidence  taken  by  the  stipendiary  magistrate,  or  that  caused  to  be 
taken  by  him,  must,  before  the  sentence  is  carried  into  etlect,  be  forv.arded  to  the  minister 
of  Justice;;  and  sub-section  eij^ht  re(juires  tlie  stipendiary  magistrate  to  postpone  the 
execution,  from  time  to  time,  until  such  report  is  receive*!,  and  the  pleasure  of  the 
<io\ernor  tliereon  is  conniiunicated  to  tlie  Lieutenant-t Jovernor.  Thus,  before  sentence  is  • 
carrie(^. out,  tlie  prisoner  is  heard  twice  in  court,  throuijli  counsel  and  his  ca.se  nuist  have 
'  !en  considered  in  (,'ounpil,  and  the  ple^isure  of  the  (iovernor  thereon  communicated  to 
tlic  Lieuienant-t    nernor. 

It  .seems  to  me  tile  law  is  not  open  to  tlie  charge  of  unduly  or  hastily  confiding  the 
pONVer  in  tlie  triliuiuils  before  which  tlie  prisoner  has  been  heard.  Tlie  sentence,  when 
tlie  )>iisi>iicr  iij)peals,  cannot  be  carried  into  etlect  until  liis  case  has  been  three  times 
Jieard,  in  tlie  manner  above  stated. 

Counsel  then  rest  the  jirisoiier's   case   upon   the  ground   of   insanity,  and  it  is  upon   ■, 
this  latter  pi)int  only  that  the  prisoner  called  witnesses.  , 

The  jury  by  their  finding  have  negatived  this  ground,  and  the  jirisoner  can  only 
ask,  bi^fore  us,  for  a  new  trial,  we  have  no  otiier  jiower  of  whidi  lie  can  avail  himself. 
The  rule  at  law  in  uivil  cases  is,  that  the  evidence  against  the  verdict  must  greatly  pre- 
ponderate before  a  \erdict  will  be  set  aside  ;  and  in  criminal  cases  in  Ontario,  whilst  the 
law  (now  repealed)  allowed  a]>plicaticnis  for  new  trials,  the  rule  was  more  stringenf — a 
verdirt  in  a  criminal  ca.se  would  not  be  set  aside  if  there  was  evidence  to  go  to  the  juiVi 
and  the  jiidife  wimld  not  express  any  opinion  ujion  it  if  there  was  evidence  to  go  to  the 
jury,  if  their  verdict  could  not  be  declared  wrong.  1  have  carefully  read  the  evidence, 
and  it  uiijiears  to  me  that  the  jtiry  could  not  reasonably  have. come  to  any  other  conclu- 
sion than  the  verilict  of  guilty  ;  there  is  not  only  evidence  to  support  the  verdict,  but  it 
vastly  preponderates. 

It  is-said  the  prisoner  labored  under  the  insane  delusion  that  he  was  a  prophet,  and 
that  he  had  a  missiiin  to  fulfil.  When  did  this  mania  fii-st;  seize  him,  or -when  did  it 
manifest  it.sclf  /  ^SIlortly  before  he  came  to  .Saskatchewan  he  had  Iteen  teaching  school  in 
Montana.  Ii  was'not  this  mania  tiiat  impelled  him  to  fouimvnce  the  work  wliich  ended 
in  the  charjje  at  IJatoche.  He  was  invited  liy  a  deputation,  who  went  for  him  to  .Montana. 
The  original  idea  was  not  his — did  not  originate  with  him.  It  is  argued,  however,  that 
his  demeanor  chanued  in  March,  just  before  the  outbreak.  Before  then  he  had  l>eeu 
hoUling  iiiei-tiiii;^,  addressing  audiences,  and  acting  as  a  sane  person.  His  correspondence 
witii  ticneral  (now  (Sir  Kiederick)  Midilleton  betokens  no  si;;ns  of  either  weakness  of 
intellect  or  of  1  delusions,  taking  tlie  definitions  of  this  disease,  as  given  by  the  experts. 
And  how  does  his  conduct  comport  therewith*  The  maniac  imagines  his  delusions  real, 
they  are  fixed  and  determinate,  the  bare  contradiction  causes  irritability. 

The  first  witness  called  by  the  prisovier,  the  Kev.  Father  Alexis  Andre,  in  his  cross- 
examination  says  as  follows  : —    '  ;  '  ,  • 

'  •.  \\'ill  you  please  state  what  the  prisoner  asked  of  the  Federal  Government? — 
A,  ]  had  two  interviews  with  the  iirisoner  on  that  subject. 

Q.  The  prisoner  claimed  a  certain  indemnity  from  the  Federal  Governineut.  Didu't 
he? — A.    When  the  prisoner  made  his  claim,  I    was  there   with   another  gentleman,  au«t 

jrity. 


182 

he  asked  8100,000.     We  thouglit  tliat  was  exorliitant,  and  the  iirisoner  said  :  '•  Wait  a 
little,  I  will  take  at  once  i::J5,000  cash."  '  • 

Q,  Is  it  not  true  tlie  prisoner  told  you  lie  himself  was  the  lialf-lireed  i|uestion  .' — 
A.  He  did  not  say  so  in  express  tei'nis,  hut  lie  conveyed  tliat  idea,  lie  said  :  "  If  I  am 
satistil^d,  tlie  Half-breeds  will  he."'  "^ 

The  witness  continues  :  I  nnist  exjilain  tliis.  Tliis  o!>jection  was  made  to  liini,  tliat 
even  if  tlie  Uoveiniiieiit  granted  him  the  ^■.■}:■),«ll)0,  tlie  half  iireiid  i|iiestioii  would  remain 
the  saiiip  :  and  he  said,  in  answer  to  that  :   "  If  I  am  satistied,  the    Half-iireeds  will  he." 

.^SjQ-  Is  it  not  a  faet<*^~r?7W^iu  he  would  even  accept  a  less  sum  than  the  8:l.'>,000? 
— A.  Yes:  he  said,  "  Use)  all  the  intiuence  you  can,  you  may  not  get  all  tliat,  hut  ^'et 
all  you  can,  and  if  you  gej;  less,'we  will  see." 

This  was  the  crbss-examination  of  a  witness  called  hy  the  juisoner. 

Tolieneral  Middletoii,  after  prisoner's  arrest,  he  siieaks  cjf  Ids  desire  to  negotiate 
for  a  money  consideration.  '       ■ 

111  my  opinion,  this  shows  lie  was  willing  and  ()uite  capahle  of  jparting  with  this 
supposed  delusion,  if  lie  got  the  *=:55,UOO. 

A  delusion  must  lie  lixed,  acted  upon,  and  helievejl  in  as  real,  cnerconie  and  domi- 
nate in  the  -mind  of  the  insane  per.son.  An  insanity  which  can  he  jiut  on  or  oil"  at  the 
will  of  the  insjine  person,  according  to  the  medical  t'^stimony,  is' not  in.saiiity  at  alt  in  the 
sense  of  mania. 

■  Dr.  Koy  testified  to  his  having  heen  conliiied  in  the  l!i;auport  asylum  at  Quehei, 
from  which  he  was  dischargi'd  in  .l-anuary,  lS7f*.  ills  e\  idence  was' so  unsatisfactoi  j, 
the  answer  not  readily  given,  aiuL  his  account  of  )irisoner's  insanity  was  given  with  .so 
much  hesitation,  that  I  think  the  jury  were.' jivjijiiii-d  in  not  placing  any  great  reliance 
ujiou  it. 

Dr.  Clarke,  of  the  Toronto  asylum,  as  an  expert,  was  not  sulticiently  positixeto 
eiiahle  any  one  to  form  a  definite  opiiiioit  ujionthe  (|uestimi7if  the  sanity  of  the  prisoner. 

Dr.  Wallace,  of  the  Hamilton  asylum  :  Dr.  .hikes,  the  iiieilical  otiicer.who  attended 
tlte  prisoner  from  his  arri\al  at  K»gina  :  (ieiieial  Middleton,  and  Cajitain  Young — these 
all  failed  to  tind  insanity  in  <iis  nmduct  or  conversation.  Neither  could  the  lte\-.  Mr. 
Pithlado,  1\ho  had  a  good  ojiportunity  of  conversing  with  him. 

In  my  opinion,  the  evidence  against  his  iii.s;inity  v»!iy  greatly  preponderate.s.  Hesides, 
it  is  not  every  degree  of  insanity  or  mania  that  will  justify  his  heiiig  aci)uitted  on  that 
ground.  The  rule  in  that  respect  is  most  satisfactorily  laid  down  in  tlie  M<X<i<ililcu  case 
10  CI.  it  Fin.  :idU.  Notwitlfctanding  the  party  accused  ilid  the  act  complained  of  with  a 
view,  under  the  influence  of  «nsane  dehision.  of  redresshig  some  supposed  grievances  or 
injury,  or  of  jiroducing  some  pijhlii'heiietit,  he  is  nevei  thelesspunishahle  according  to  the 
nature  of  the  crime  tommitted,  if  he  knew  at  the  lime  of  coniinittiiig  sucli  crime  that  he 
was  acting  contrary  to  law. 

I  think  the  evidence  upon  the  i|uestion  of  insanity  .shows  that  the  jirisoner  did  know 
that  he  was  acting  illegally,  and  tlpit  he  was  responsihle  for  iiis  acts! 

In  my  opinion,  a  new  trial  should  he  refu.sed,  and  the  conviction  confirmed. 


Tavlok,  J. — This  is  an  appeal  hrought  under  the  provisions  of  section  77  of  the 
Jfortli-West  Territories  Act,  18S0,  Doni.  8tat.  43'  Vic.,  c.  'In,  hy  Louis  Itiel,  from  a 
judgmeijt  rendered  against  him  at  Itegina,  in  the  North- West  Territories. 

On  the  liOth  day  of  July  last  the  ajipellant  was  charged  before  Hugh  Richardson, 
Esq.,  stipendiary  magistrate,  and  Jlenry  Le  Jeuiie,  Esij.,  a  justice  of  the  jieace,  sitting 
as  a  court  under  the  jirovisions  of  section  76  of  the  above  mentioned  statute,  with  tlie 
crime  of  treason.  After  a  plea  by  the  appellant  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  court,  and  a 
demurrer  to  the  sufficiency  in  law  of  the  charge  or  indictenient,  liad  both  heen  overruled, 
he  appellant  pleaded  not  guilty^  The  trial  was  then,  upon  his  application,  adjourned  for 
ifr»'i  days  to  procure  the  attendance  of  witnesses  on  his  behalf.     On   the  28th  of  jiily 

po»^  '   i    ^ 

■  T  I 


1 


\ 


183 

the  trial  was  procfcilfd  witli,  and  a  larj;e  miiiil)cr  of  witnesses  were  called  and  pxaiililied. 
At  the  dial  the  ajiiu-llaiit  was  dct'eiuh-il  l.y  three  !,'en(k-iuen  of  hi>,'h  stau<liii<,'  at  the  liar 
of  tlie  Pro\iiK-e  of  (^Ufhee.  Jiidj^'inL;  from  the  arf;uiiients  acldressed  to  this  court  l>v  two 
of  these  gentleiiieii  on  tli«^  present  appeal,  I  liave  no  hesitation  in  sjieaking  of  them  as 
learned,  aide  and  zealous,  fidly  competent  to  render  to  the  appellant  all  the  assistance  in 
the  pow(u-  of  counsel  to  aftoni  him.  On  the  1st  of  au<;ust,  the  case  liavin:,'  )tebn  left  to 
•  the  jury,  tlieyjreturned  a  verdict  of  guilty,  and  tliereuj^Mju  sentence  of  <ifath  was  pro- 
nounced.     Ki-^.iii  that  he  l.rinL's  his  ap|)eal. 

It  was  not  ur>;  ^l  Iiefore  this  court,  as  it  was  on  tho  trial  at  Hc^ina,  that  the  appel- 
lant should  ha\e  lieen  .sent  for  trial  to  the  I'rovince  of  (  hitario,  or  to  the  Pro\  iiice  of 
l»riti.-Nh  Coluudiia,  instead  of  his  hein;.;  hrouj^'ht  to  trial  hetor<-  a  stipendiary  magistrate 
and  a  justice  of  the  peace  in  the  Xorth-West  Territories. 

This  point  not  havin;;  lieen  arLfued,  it  is  unnecessary  to  consider  whether  the  Imj)erial 
Acts  i.\  (icn.:  I  1 1.,  .■.  |;!M  :  1  .t  1'  (i,.„.  I  v.,  ,..  Cf),  an<l  -jj  .t  2:5  Vic.  c.  L'f.,  are,  or  are  not 
now  in  force.  Only  a  passin',' allusion  was  made  to  thi'm'tiXcounsel.  The  tirst  of  them  was- 
repealcd  i,y  the  Statute  Law  I^evision  Act,  1M7l'(;!."i  .v  ■'itt^'ic.  c.  r>:{),  ami  part  of  the 
second' wa.^  rep.-aled  l,y  the  Statute  Law  Revision  Act,  l."<74\:!7  .t  iiS  Vice.  :3.'.).  At  all 
events,  the  Impirial  (i.i\crnment  has  never,  under  flu>  authority  of  these,  appointed  in 
the  Xorth-W  e.^t  Territories  justices  of  the  )>eace,  uoi:  est.il.lished  courts,  while  under 
other  statutes  hereafter  refetaed  to.  wholly  diit'ereiit  ]irovisioii^  has  been  made  for  dealini^ 
with  crime  in  tln»i;  TeriiiorieU,  so  that  tlicy  must  he,  treated  as  olisolete  if  not   rejiealed. 

It  was  contcniltfd  hy  the  appellant'.s  counsel  thfit  the  Inii>erial  statutes  relating  to 
tr  Hson,  the  1'.'.  ivhJ.  HI.,  c.  •->  :  7  \Vm.  III.,  c.  .$  ;  :if.  (Jeo.  III.,  e.  7,  and  ■>7  (ko.  III., 
c.  (),  which  deline  ^hat  is  treason,  am.  provide  the  mode  in  which  it  is  to  lie  trietl, 
including,'  the  (pialitijcatiou  of  juror.s,  theii-  nundier,  and  the  meth.xl  of  choosing  them,  are 
in  tone  in  the  North-W'e-t  T.-rritories.  Anil  it  was  argueil,  that  in  legislatinj,'  for  the 
ISorth-W  est  'I  erritorie.s.  ^e  people  of  wliich  aii;  not  repre»eiit<Ml  in  the  Douiinicm  Par- 
liament, that  Pailiament  exeri'ises  only  a  delegated  power,  which  must  he  strictly  cous- 
true<l,  and  cannot  l*e  e\ercisi-d  to  deprive  the  people  llieri-  of  rights  secured  to  them  as 
liriti.-<h  .^uiijccts  i«y  .Maixna  Charta.  or  in  any  way  alti-r  tlie^e  old  statutes  to  their  pre- 
judii'i\  Now  of  this  argument  aL;ain.-.t  any  change  heing  made  in  riuht>  and  privileges 
secured  liy  old  charters  and  statutes,  a  great dealitoo  much  may  he  made. 

That  these  rights  anil  pri\ile<;es,  wrested  hy  the  people  from  tyrannical  Sovereigns 
many  centui'ies  ago,  wife  and  are  valuahle,  there  can  he  no  ipiestiou.  Were  the  Sovereign 
at  the  jircsent  day  endeavouring  to  depiive  the  people  of  any  of  these,  for  the  purposes 
of  op|iression,  it  wo\dd  speedilv  he  fouiul  that  tlu'  lovi?'  of  liherty  is  as  strong  in  the 
hearts  of  Ihitish  sulijects  to-day  a*  it  was  in  the  hearts  of  their  forefathers,  and  they 
would. do  tJicir  utmost  to  uphold  and  defeud  rights  and  privileges  purchased  hy  the  hlood 
of  their  ancestors.  But  it  is  a  very  ditlerent  thing  when  the  legislature,  comjiosed  of  re- 
presentatives of  the  people,  chosen  hy  them  to  expi:ess  flifi'"  will,  deem  it  e.vpedieut  to 
}  make  a  change  in  the  law,  I'ven  thiaigh  that  change  Inay  he  the  surrender  of  some  of 
these  old  rigMs  and  pi  ivilcj.'cs. 

Tli.it  the  l)oniiiiioii  Parliament  represents  the  j>eo|ile  of  the  Xorth-West   Territories 

.      cannot,  I  think,  he  successfully  disputed.      It  may  he,  that  the  inhahitants  of  these  Ter- 

'       ritories  are  not  rcprebented   in   parliaiaeiit  hy  memhers  sitting  there   chosen   directly  hy 

them,  but  these  Territories  form  part  of  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  the  people  in  them  are 

citizens  of  Canada,  not,  as  it  was  put  hy  counsel,  neighhours,  just  in  the  same- way  as  all 

the  people  of  this  l>oml:iion  are  part  and  parcel  of  the  great  Hritiish  Kmpire.   The  peopl-- 

of  these  Territories  are  represented  hy  the  Dominion  Parliament,  jus|  as  the  inhahitants 

of  all  the  colonies  are  lepreseuted  hy  the  House  of  Commons  of  England.    Legislation  for 

J  these  Territories  hy  the  Dominion  Parliament,  must   indeed  pree-ede  their  heing  directly 

represented  there,   liefore  they  cati  he  so.  the  numiier  of  representatives  they  are  to  have, 

the  ijualitication  of  electors,  and  other  matters  must   he  provide;!  for  hy  the   L)ominion 

Parliament  itself  or  by  Local  Legislatures  created  hy  that  Parliament. 

The  ipiestion  then  is,  what  powers  of  legislation  with  reference  to  the  X«rth-\Vest 
territories  have  been  conferre<l  upon  the   Dominion   Parliament  by  Imperial  authority. 


184 

In  the  exercise   of  that  authority,  whatever  it  ^lay  lie,  it  is  jiot  exereisiiij;  a  delejsjated 
authority. 

To  foiiiul  an  artfiiiiiont  as  to  Parliaiaeiit  exorcisiuj^  a  delefjated  authority,  upon  tlie 
language  Used  l)y  Ainerieau  writers,  or  upon  judioial  decisions  in  tlie  United  States,  , 
appears  to  me  to  We  wliolly  fallacious.  In  the  States  of  the  Anjerican  I'niou  tlie  theorj-  is, 
that  the  sovereign  power  is  vested  in  the  people,  and  they,, l)y  the  (Constitution  of  the 
State,  estaldishing  ix  k'gislature,  delegate  to  that  liody  certain  powers,  a  limited  ))ortion 
of' the  sovereign  jiowei-  which  is  vested  in  the  jieople.  The  people,  however,  still  retain 
certiiiu  conunon  law  rights,  the  authority  to  deal  with  which  they  have  not  delegated  to 
the  legislative  body.  Hence  the  huiguage  used  hy  Hronson,  .1.,  in  Tufilor  vs.  I'nrti'r,  4 
Hill,  at  p.  144. — •'  Undei-  our  form  of  goveinnient  (he  legislature  is  not  supreme.  It  is 
only  one  of  the  organs  of  that  .•ibsoluti-  sovereignty  which  resides  in  the  whole  hody  of 
the  people.  Like  other  departments  of  the  go\ernment  it  can  only  e.\erci.se  such  jiowers 
as  have  been delegativl  to  it."  It  i';  in  the  light  of  this  (heory  that  (In-  language  of  Mr. 
■Justice  Story  in  Wilk'nis.m  vs.  I.ilnnl,  •_'  Peters,  (ii'T,  must  he  read  and  by  which  it  must 
be  construed.  The  case  of  the  liritish  I'iirliament  -is  cpiite  diHerent,  "  in  which,"  us 
Bla,ckstone  says  (///«'•/ .^/'l»<.  Clnistian's  Ed.,  Vol.  I.,  ]>!  147,  "the  legislative  power  and 
(of  course)  the  supreme  and  absolute'  authority  of  the  State,  is  vested  by  our  consti- 
tution." And  again,  at  ]>.  Hit),  he  .says,  ■•  It  hath  so\ereign  and  uncontrollabh-  authority 
in  the  making,  conferring,  enlarging,  restiaining,  abrogating,  re|iialing,  revising  am! 
expounding  of  laws,  oneerning  matters  of  all  possilile  denominations  *  *  *  *  this  being 
the  place  where  that  ab.solute  despotic  i)Ower  which  must  in  all  go\ernnients  reside 
somewhere,  is  entrusted  liytliXLOi.stitudon  of  (he.se  kingdoms."' 

To  the  extent  of  the  powers  confeircd  upon  it,  the  Dominion  Parliament  exercises 
not  delegated  but  i)lenary  jiowers  of  legi.-,lation,  though  it  cannot  do  anything  beyond  the 
limits  which  circumscribe  the.-^e  po\\er.<.  When  acting  within  tlieni,  as  was  said  by  Lord 
feVlborne  in  7V/f  ifmn  \s.  liunth,  L.  U.  .'i  Ap]i.  (.'a.,  at  ]>.  904,  si)eakiiig  of  the  Indian 
Council,  it  is  not  in  any  seiise  an  agent  oi-  delegate  of  the  [m|)erial  Parliament,  but  has, 
and  was  intendeil  to  have,  jileuury  i>i>\\ers  of  legislation,  as  large,  and  of  the  same  nature  I 
as  those  of  that  Parliament  itself.  That  the  Dominion  I'arliament  has  jilenary  powers  .' 
of  legislation  in  respecfHvf  all  inatterse1it  rusted  to  it  was  held  by  the  Sujirenu'  (.'ourt  in 
Valin  vs.  Linii/loin.  .S  Sui),  V.  H.  1,  and  Citi/  of  I'ndiriclini  vs.  The  (^fii'i-n,  :l  Sup. 
C.  R.  50o.  So  also,  tl'.e  jiidici.il  cinnmittee  of  the  Pri\  y  (Jouncil  have  jield,  in  l/tijffr 
vs.  The  Queni.  L.  K.  It  App.  ( '.*.  1  17,  that  the  local  legislaturf^s  when  legi.-,lating  ti^tn 
matters  withju  section  !);J  of  tht*  British  N'oi-lh  .\merica  .\jL-t,  ]>rtss'e.ss  authorityas  plemir}' 
and  as  sample,  within  tht^  limits  ])re.sci-ib^'il  by  that  section,  iVs  the  Imperial  Parliament  in 
the  ]>lenitU(le  of  its  power  po.->.se.s:,e, I  .and  could  bestow. 

The  ]<ower  of  the  Dominion  Pailiameiit  to  legislate  for  (he  Nor(h\Ves(  Terri(ories 
seems  (o  me  (o  be  derived  in  (his  wi>c.  ami  (o  ex(end  thus  far.  Hy  section  I4ti  of  (he 
British  North  America  , Vet  it  was  ]iro\ided,  (hut  it  shoidd  be  lawful  for  Her  .Ma^eSty. 
with  the  ai|\  ice  of  Ifer  l'ri\y  Council,  ''on  uddiiss  from  (he  Houses  of  (he  Parlianien( 
of  Canada,  to  admit  I'uperts  Jjind  ahd  the  North  Western  Territory,  ijr  ei(hi;r  of  (hem, 
into  tlie  I'nioii,  on  sii<h  tei'nis  and  conditions  in  each  ca.se  as  are  in  the  aildresses 
expressed,  and  as  the  (Jui en  thinks  lit  to  approve,  .suliject  to  the  in-ovisions  of  this  Act  ; 
and  the  provi.-.ions  of  any  (lider  in  Council  in  tiiat  beiialf  shall  have  etlect  as  if  (liey  had 
been  enacted  by  the  Pailiakient  of  the  I'nited  Kingdom  of  (Jrea(   itritain  and   L-eland." 

In  l'"*tii,"tlie  l>oiiiinion  Parliament  presented  an  arldress  praying  that  Ili'r  Majesty 
would  be  Weass-d  to  .unite  UuperCs  Land  aiifl  (hj; '\or(h  Western  Territory  wi(h  the 
Do)iiiiij/f?k,  iihtLliiin'i^it  to  the  Parliament  of  Canada  authoritj'  (o  legislate  for  (heir 
future  welfare  iiiKf  gobfl  government.  The  address  ;ilsu  stated.  (ha(  in  (he  event  of  Her^ 
Majesty  s  (jiovernment  agreeing  to  tran»fi  r  to  Caiiaila  llie  ju'risdiutirm  and  control  over 
the  said  region,  (he  ( !o\ernnien(  and  Parliament  of^'unada  would  be  ready  to  provide 
that  the  legal  rights  of  any  corporation,  i-omiiany  oi-  individual  within  (he  sanii'  should  • 
be  re^)ec(<?d  and  ])laced  under  (he  pi'otection  of  courts  of  competent  juri.sdictiou. 

The  following  year,  li^t)"*,  (he  Ru])ert's  Land  Act,  ."il  and  :52  Vic.^  c.  lO"),'  was 
passed   by  the  Imperial   Parliament.      For  the  jiurjHises  of  the  Act  the  term  Ruperts, 


i 


185 


Land  is  declared  Ifi)  ii\clude  the  whole  of  the  lands  and  territories  licld,  or  ehiinied  to  be 
held,  liy  th^(ioveynor  and  Conipfiay  of  Adventurers  of  Enfjlaud  tnidinj;  into  Hudson's 
Bay.  The  Act  tlik^n  provides  for  a  suiTender  l>y  the  Hudson's  ISay  Conipany-xtj)  Her 
Majesty  of  all  their  lands,  rij^hts,  privilejfes,  etc.,  within  Kujiert's  Liind,  and  provides 
that  the  surrendekshall  bo  null  and  void  unless  within  a  month  after  its  acceptance  Her 
Majesty  shall,  byvtujler  in  Council,  under  the  provisions  of  section  110  of  the  British 
North  America  Act,  admit  Ruperts  Land  into  the  Dominion.  The  fifth  section  j)ro- 
vides  that  it  shall  be  competent  for  Her  Majesty,  by  any  Order  in  Council,  to  declare 
that  Rupert's  Land  shall  be  admitted  into  and  become  part  of  tlie  Dominion  of  Canada  ; 
"and  thereupon  it  shall  be  lawful  for  the  Parliament  of  Canada,  from  the  date  aforesaid, 
tff  make,  ordain,  and  establish  within  the  land  and  territory  so  admitted  as  afcnesaid,-' 
m.stitutioiis,  and  ordinances,  and  to  constitute  such  courts  and  otiicers  as  may  be  nece.s- 
.siiiy  for  the  peace,  order,  and  good  government  of  Her  Majesty's  subjects  and  others 
therein.''  ' 

In  1S(>9,  a  second  address  was  jiresented,  embodying  certain  resolutions  and  tenns 
of  agreement  come  to  between  (.'auada  and  the  Hudson's  liay  Company,  and  praying 
that  Her  Majesty's  would  be  i>leased  to  unite  Rupert's  Land  on  the  terms  and  conditions 
expressed  in  the  foiegoing  re.^olutions,  and  also  to  unite  the  North  Western  Territory  with 
the  Doniini<ui  of  (,'anada,  as  prayed  for,  by  and  on  the  terms  and  condition^  contained  ill 
the"  first  address. 

The  same  year  the  iJominion  Parliament  jiassed  an  Act.  S2  iV  ^Vi  \"w.  c.  'i,  for  the 
temporary  go\ernme^t.  of  Rupert's  Land  and  the  North- Western  Territory,  when  united 
with  Canada,  which  was  to  continue  in  force  until  the  end  of  the  next  session  of  Par- 
liament. 

The  following  year,  1870,  another  Act  was  passed,  33  Vic  c.  3,  which  amended 
and  continued  the  former  Act.  and  which  formed  out  of  the  North-West  Tiiritorv  this 
Province  of  ^lanitoba.  The  last  section  of  tliis  act  re-enacted,  extended,  and  continued 
in  force  the  3l'  a-  '.V-'<  Vic.  c.  :!  until  tlie  1st  day  of  January,  1.S71,  and  until  the  end  of 
the  session  of  Parliament  then  next  ensuing. 

On  the  I'.'lrd  of  .luiie,  If'TO,  Her  .Majesty  by  Onler  in  ('ouncil.  after  reciting  the 
addressi's  j)re;seiited  by  the  Parliament  of  Canada,  ordered  an<l  declared  "that  from  and 
after  the  l.")tli  day  of  July,  1.^70,  the  North- Western  Territory  shall  lie  admitted  into, 
iAid  Income  ])art  of,  the  Dominion  of  Canada,  upon  the  terms  and  conditions  set  forth  in 
(he  tiist  liereinbefore  recited  address,  and  that  the  Parliament  of  Canmla  shall,  from  the 
day  aforesaid,  ha\e  full  j)ower  and  authority  to  legislate  for  tile  future  welfare  and  goo«l 
government  of  the  said  territory.  " 

By  virtue  of  that  Order  in  Council  and  of  the  :Jl  iV  32  Vic.  c.  10."',  it  seems  to  me, 
that  on  tlie  l.nth  of  July,  l."<7il.  the  Parliament  of  Canada  became  entitled  to  legi-slate 
and  to  make,  ordain  an(l  establish  within  the  North- West  Territories  all  such  liiws,  insti- 
tutions, and  ordinances,  civil  and  criminal,  and  to  establish  such  courts,  civil  and  crimi- 
nal, as  miyht  bt'  necessary  for  peace,  older,  and  good  government  therein.  The  language 
useil  is  even  wider  than  is  Used  in  the  SUst  section  of  the  British  Nortil  America  Act, 
which  defines  the  legislati\e  authority  of  the  Parliament  of  Canada,  extending  by  sub- 
section '21  to  tile  criminal  law  :  while  tlfere  is  not  as'there  the  restrictions,  '•except  the 
constitution  of  courts  of  criminal  jurisdiction.  '  but  on  tlie  contrary  express  authority  to 
constitute  courts  without  any  limitation.  ' 

That  by  that  Order  in  Council  and  Act  the  authority  thercliy  given  extends  over 
that  part  of  the  N<irth-West  Territory  wheiv  the  events  occurred  out  of  which  the  charge 
against  the  appellant  arcrse,  there  can  be  no  doubt.  iJy  the  terms  of  the  agicemeut  be- 
tween.(Canada  anil  the  Hud.son's  Bay  Company,  the  latter  were  to  retain  certain  lauds, 
find  in  a  schedule  annexed  to  the  <.>rder  in  Council  theexact  localities  are  melitioneil.  Ill 
tlie  Saskatchewan  District  the  names  Edmonton,  Fort  Pitt,  Ciwlton  House,  and  other 
places  a  pj>ear. 

It  is  true  that  in  1871,  another  Ac't  was  passetl  by  the  luinerial  Parliament,  the 
34  i  3.">  Vic.  c'.  28,  spoken  of  by  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  as  "The  Doubts-R«iiioving  Act,''  but  J 
oaunot  come  to  the  conclusion  which  he  seeks  to  draw  from  that   fact,  and  fiian  its  con- 


••:  186 

fjrijiiii.i,'  two  Acts  of  tlie  CunaTTian  PailianiPiit,  tliat  tlip  former  Act,  M  it  32  Vic.  c.  105, 
(li(i  not  ;,'ive  tlie  JJoiniiiioii  Parliament  full  power  to  lei.'islate  for  the  Nortli-Wcst  Terri- 
tory. The  former  Act  provided  for  tin-  adniis.sioii  of  Rujierts  Land  and  the  North- 
Westeni  Territory  into  tlie  Dominion,  Imt  was  silent  a.s  to  the  division  of  the  Territory 
so  a<liuitted,  into  ProviiR-es,  or  as  to  their  repieseiitatiou  in  jiarliuiuent.  That  it  was 
douhts  on  the.se  matters  which  the  Ait  was  intended  to  remci\  e  is  shown  liy  the  (ireuiuhle. 
It  is  ill  these  words,  ••  Whereas  douhts  have  heen  entertainc^d  respectiiij,'  the  jxiweis  of 
the  Parliament  of  Canada  to  istaMi.sh  proviiices  in  Territories  admitted,  or  Uliicli  may 
hereafter  he  admitted  into  the  Dominion  of  (,'aiiada,  and  to  jiroviiji^  for  the  rt'liresenta- 
tion  (jf  such  provinces  in  the  .said  Parliament  ;  and.it  is  expedient  to  remove  such  doiihts 
and -to  vest  such  ])Owers  in  the  said  Parliament."  The  second  and  third  sei'tions  then 
provide  for  the  estahlishment  of  provinces,  for,  in  certain  cases,  the  alteration  of  their 
limits,  and  for  their  reiire.sentatioii  in  Parliament.  The  fourth  section,  in  i;eneral  teriii-s, 
says,  •■  tlle.P^rlialneT^  of  '  Canada  may  from  time  to  time  make  provision  for  the  admi- 
nistration, peace,  order,  and  jjood  i;overnmeiit,  of  any  territory,  not  for  the  time  heiiif^ 
included  in  any  j)roviiKe  ;  ''  a  power  y hi<-li  Pailiameiit  already  had  in  the  most  amplt^ 
niahiier.  Then  follows  a  conlirmation  of  the  Canadian  Acts  .ll'  it  'i'.i  Vic.  c.  :$,  and  15.1 
Vic/c.  '.').  That  the  Act  should  contaiji  such  a  coiilirmatii.ii  is  easily  accounted  for.  The 
Imjjerial 'Act  'M  it  .■i2  Vic.  c.  lUo,  s.  -"i,  jnovided  that  it  should  l>e  competint  for 'Her 
Majesty,  liy  Oi'dei;  in  Council,  ''to  declare  tlint  Rupert's  l^and  shall;  from  a  date  to  he 
tlierein  mentioned,  he  admitted,"  itc,  and  "  thereuiion  it  shall  1m-  lawful  for  the  Par- 
liament of -Canada,  from  the  date  aforesaid,''  to  make  laws,  itc      - 

The  Oilier  in  Council  was  made  on  the  2-'5rd  of  June,  1(^70,  and  the  date  therein 
mentioned  was  the  Ditli  of  July,  lf<70.  Now, a  rcfiience  to  the.two  Canadian  .\ctsshows, 
that  the  :J2nd  and  .'J.'ird  Vic,  c.  .'5,  was  ai^sented  toon  the  22nd  of  June,  lf<t)'.*,  and  the 
."{;5rd  Vic.  c.  3,  on  the  12tli  of  May,  iJ^TO.  So,  in  fact,  they  were  liotli  pas.sed  liefore  tlie 
time  arrived  at  which  the  Parliament  of  Canada  had  the  ii>;lit  to  legislate  respectinj^ 
the  XW^th-West.  Hut  they  had  lieen  acted  ujion,  and  the  Province  of  Manitoha  actually 
organized,  therefore  they  were  conKrmed  and  declared  valid  from  the  date  at  which 
they  received  the  as-sent  of  the  (iovernor  (ieneral; 

Acting  under  the  authority  given  in  the  most  ample  manner  hy  these  Acts  of  the 
Imperial  Parliament,  and,  as  it  seems  to  iiie,  in  the  e.\ercise  not  of  a  delegatedauthority, 
but  of  plenary  jxiwi-rs  of  legislation,  the  Dominion'  Parliament  enacted  the  Xorth-West 
Territories  Act,  l.'Si^O  (4."?  Vic-.,  c.  2"))  which  provides,  among  other  tliing.s,  for  the  triyfl 
of  otfences  committed  in  the.se  Territories  in  tin:  maimer  there  pointed  out. 

The  appointnlent  of  stipeii(liary  magistrates,  who  Aiust  lie  harristers-at-law  or  ad\o- 
cates  of  live  years'  standing,  is  provided  for  liy  the  74th  section. 

Ky  the  7lith  section,  each  stipendiary  magistrate  shall  liavi-  )iower  to  hear  and 
determine  any  charge  against  any  person  for  any  criminal  ottence  -alleged  to  have  heeii 
committed  within  certain  specified  territorial  limits.  These  words  are  ipiite  wide  enough 
to  include  the  crime  of  treason.  The  various  suh-sections  of  section  7<i  pro\  ide  for  the 
mode  of  trial  in  certain  cliTsses  of  oft'eneeSj  Those  speciKed  in  the  ttrst  four  suh-sections 
are  to  be  tried  by  the  stipendiary  magistrate  in  a  summary  way  without  the  intervention 
of  a  jury.  Then  the  5th  sub-section  says,  "  In  all  other  criminal  cases  the  stipendiary 
magistrate  and  a  justice  of  the  peace,  with  the  intervention  of  a  jury  of  six,  may  try  any 
charge  against  any  person  or  persons  for  any  crime."  Again  tlie  words  are  (juite  wide 
.enough  to  cover  the  crime  of  treason.  '    \ 

Counsel  for  the  appellant  contemled  that  from  the  word  treason  l»eing  used  in/the 
10th  sub-section,  and  no  where  else  in  the  Act,  it  must  be  inferred  that  the  Act  did  not 
intend  to  deal  with  the  crime  of  treason,  except  in  the  matter  of.  challengiifg  jurors 
which  is  dealt  with  in  that  sub-section.  The  suggestion  made  by  Mr.  Robinson  is,  how- 
ever, the  more  reasonable  one,  namely,  that  treason  is  there  named  advisedly,  to  put 
beyond  doubt,  there  being  only  36  jurors  summoned,. that  a  prisoner  charged  with  that 
particular  crime  should  not  be  entitled  to  exercise  the  old  common  law  right,  which  a 
prisoner  charged  with  treason  had,  of  challenging,  peremptorily  and  without  cause, 
thirty-live  jurors.  i 


187 

The  question  must  next  he  considered,  wliether  the  iiroceedings  against  the  appellant, 
have  heen  conducted  accordins,'  to  the  reiiuireuients  of  this  Act. 

Tlie  reeord  liefme  the  Court  shows  that  tlie  trial  took  jiiaee  before  a  stij>fndiary 
magistrate  and  a  justice  of  tlie  ])cace,  with  a  jury  of  six  selected  ami  sworn  after  the 
appellant  had  exercised  his  right  of  challenging  several  jurors. 

Two  ohjections  to  the   regularity  of  the  proceedings  are,  however,  raised.      The  first 

of  these  is,  that  the  inforiiKftion  uixui  which  the   appellant   was   charged  was  exhihited 

before  the  stipendiary  n^i/iristrate  alone,  and  not  l>efore  the  sti|>endiary  magistrate  and  a 

"justice  of  the  |>eace.      An  iiis])ecti"n  of  the  docuiucnt  shows  the  fact  to  l>e  so.      But  is  it 

necessary  that  the  information  should  lie  cxhiliited  hefore  both  ? 

The  powers  and  jurisdiction  oi  stipendiary  UKigistrates  are  set  out  in  section  70  of 
the  North-West  Territories  Act,  XKSi).  , 

The  tirst  part  of  tiie  section  says,  each  stipendiary  magistrate  "shall  have  the  magis-  , 
teiial  and  other  functions  a]i|iertaining  to  any  justice  of  the  peace,  or  any  two  justices  of 
the  peace,  under'any  laws  or  ordinanccw  which  may  from  time  to  time  be  in  force  in  the 
North-West  Territories.'  That  is  a  distinct  proposition.  15y  the  schedule  annexed  to 
the  Act  one  of  the  laws  in  force  there  is  tlie  '■\'2  it  'Xi  Vic,  c.  'M).-  I'nder  the  1st  section 
of  that  Act  itis  clear  that  jH  charge  or  complaint  that  any  persk>n  lias  couniiitted,  or  is 
sus|)ected  to  have  committed  treason,  may  lie  exhiliited  Uefoie  o*ie  justice  of  the  peace,' 
and  a  warrant  for  his  api>reliension  issued  by  such  jiistice.  J 

Section  7G  then  goes  on  further,  that  each  stipendiary  magistrate  "shall  also  have 
jKiwer  to  llea'r  and  determine  any  charge  against  any  person  for  any  criminal  otleiice," 
lire.  In  ail  other  criminal  cases  than  those  specitied  in  the  tirst  four  sub-sections  he  and  a 
justice  of  the  ]ieace,.witli  tJie  intervention  of  a  jury  of  six,  may  try  the  charge.  Tt  is  only 
when  the  charge  comes  to  be  tried  tliat  the  presence  of  a  justice  of  the  peace  along  with 
him  is  nece.ssary.  To  hold  that  the  words  "  try  any  charge  '  include  tlie  exhibiting  of  the 
information,  or  that  it  must  be  so,  before  both  a  stipendiary  magistrate  and  a  justice  of 
,tlie  peace,  seems  to  mi^  to  in\olve  tiie  holding  also,  that  for  the  purpose  of  exhiliiting  the 
information  tlieie  is  also  ni'cessaiv  the  iiitei\  tntion  of  a  jury  of  six.  Now  the  jury  cannot 
be  called  iii|;o  existence  until  the  charge  has  been  iuade,  the  accused  arraigned  ujion  it, 
and/ he  has  pleaded  to  it.        -  \. 

The  case  of  ^^y.  vs.  Rimsell,  13  ©.  1!.  •J.l",  *was  cited  in  supjiort  of  this  objection, 
but,  as  I  i*ad  that  case,  it  is  a  diiect..<tuthority  against  it.  An  information  was  exhibited 
under  the  Ai^t  for  the  fienel-al  Hegulation  of  the  Cu.stouis,  before  jt  single  justice,  and 
was  dismissed  by  the  justices  before  whom  the  charge  was  brou;flit  for  trial,  on  .-the 
ground  that  it  should  have  been  exhibited  before  two  justices,  in  conforiiiity  with  section 
X2  of  the  Act  for  the  Prevention  of  Smuggling.  That  section  provided  that  all  jienalties  . 
and  forfeitures  incurred  or  imposed  by  any  Act  relating  to  the  customs  should  and  might 
be  "sued  for,  prp.secuted,  and  recovered  by  action  of  debt,  bill,  plaint,  or  information  in. 
any  of  Her  Majesty's  Courts  of  Record,"  iVc,  "or  liy  information  liefore  any  two  or  more 
of  Her  Majesty's  Justices  of  the  Peace,"  itc.  A  rule  calling  on  the  justices  to  show  cause 
wliy  a  mandamus  shiaild  not  issue  commanding  them  to  proceed  to  adjudicate  upon  the 
information,  was  obtained.  Upon  the  return  of  the  ride,  counsel  for  the  justices  contended, 
that  the  proN  isioii  that  the  jienalty  may  be  "sued  for,"  liy  information,  must  refer  U>  the 
commencement  of  the  proceeding,  in  like  manner  as  in  the  provision  that  it  may  be 
"  sued  for  '  by  action.  But  the  Court  made  the  rule  for  a  mandamus  absolute.  Lord 
Denmau,  C.  J.,  who  delivered  the  judgment  of  the  court,  saying.  "  The  ^'liu\  section  of 
the  Act  does  not  necessarily  mean  that  the  information  must  be  laid  before  two  justices, 
1jut  only  that  it  must  be  heard  before  two  justices.  ' 

The  next  objection  is,  that  at  tire  trial  full  notes  of  the  evidence  and  proceedings 
thereat,  in  writing,  were  not  taken,  as  retiuired  by  the   stiitute,  section  76,  sub-section  7. 
What  was   actually  done,  as  it  is  admitted   on  both   sides,  was,  that  the  evidence  and  a 
record, of  the  proceedings  were  taken  down  at  the  time  by  stenographers  appointeil  by  • 
the  magistrate,  and  they  afterwards  extended  their  notes. 

The   objection   cannot   be,  that  the  magistrate  did  not   himself  take  notes  of  the 


0 


188 


evidence  autl  proceedings,  for  the  statute  says  he  shall  "  take,  or  cause  to  be  taken,"  full 
notes,  &c.   It  must  be  that  the  notes  were  ta'ken  by  stenographic  signs  or  symbols. 

No  doulrt,  enactments  regulating  the  procedure  in  courts  seem  usually  to  be  imper- 
ative, and  not  merely  directory.  Muxvell  on  Slatitlfs,  456  ;  Taylor  vs.  Tai/lor,  L.  R.  1 
Ch.  Div.  at  p.  431.  But  tlie  force  of  the  objection  depends  upon  what  is  meant  by  the 
word  "  writing.'  In  proceeding  to  consider  it,  I  am  not  conscious  of  being  in  any  way 
prejudiced,  from  tire  circumstance  that  1  am  myself  a  stenogra])her.  The  statute  does  not 
.sjiecify  liny  method  or  form  of  writing,  as  tliat  which  is  to  lie  adopted.  '*  Wridrjg"  i.s,  in 
^the  Imjieriar  Di<:tionary,  said  to  bo  "  The  act  or,  art  of  forming  letters  or  characters,  on 
liaper,  jiarchment,  wood,  stone,  the  inneivbark  of  certain  trees,  or  other  material,  for  the 
jmipose  of  recjording  tlie  ideas  which  characters  and  woi-ds  express,  or  of  communicating 
them  to  others  by  vi.sible  signs."  In  the  same  work,  '"to  write,'"  is  defined  tlius,  "To  pro 
duce,  form  or  make  by  tracing,  legible  characters  e.xjiressive  of  ideas,"-  Is  not  stenographic 
writing  the  ]iroduction  of  "legible  characters,  expressive  of  ifleas  "  ?  The  word  is  frirmed 
fioin  two  (iieek  word.s,  "  stenos  '  and  "  giajiho,"  and  means  silniily  "close  writing."  If 
the  objection  is  a  good  one,  it  mu.st  gp  the  length  of  insisting  that  the  notes  must  be 
taken  down  in  ordinar}'  English  cliaiaJL-ters,  in  words  at  full  length.  If'any  contractions 
or  al)breviations  were  made,  the  objection  would  have  quite  as  much  force  as  it  has  to  the 
method  adopted  in  this  ca.se. 

Jif  >Stanhi(i,  1  Man.  L.  R.  32."),  was  an  entirely  diflerent  case.  It  was  one  under  the 
Extradition  Act,  and  the  evidence  was  taken  in  sliort  hand,  as  is  usual  on  a  trial.  The 
Court  lield,. that,  the  lejiorter's  notes  extended,  which  were  pr(>»(iK-ed  before  it,  on  the 
argument  on  the  return  of  a  writ  of  hiihing  i-iirp>i.t  obtained  by  the  prisoner,  could  not  l>e 
looked  at,  and  that  there  was  really  no  evidence.  Kut  the  (Jourt  so  held,  lieciuise  the 
jii'ovisions  of  the  3l'nd  li:  33rd  Vic.  c.  30,  s.  39,  were  applicalile  to  the  mode  wr  wiiich 
the  evidence  .should  be  taken  in  extradition  proceedings.  That  section  leipiires  the  depo- 
sitions to  be  put  in  writing,  read  over  to  the  witnes.s,  signed  by  him,  and  also  signed  by 
the  justice  taking  the  same.  The  dejiositions  in  the  case  in  <|uestion  liad  not  been  read 
over  to  tlie  witnesses,  nor  signed  by  tliem  ;  nor  were  they  sigm^l  by  the  judge  who  took 
tlieiii,  so  that  clearly  the  reijuirementsi  of  the  Act  had  not  been  bomjilied  with. 

Ill  addition  to  the  ol)jections  alieady  dealt  with,  it  was  argued,  tliat  -.the  appellant  is 
entitled  to  a  n(w  trial,  on  the  ground  that  the  e\  ideiice  adduced  proved  his  insanity,  and 
tjiat  the  jury  slw.uld  ha\e  so  found,  and  tlierefore  rendered  a  verdict  of  not  guilty. 

I  The  section  of  the  statute  which  gives  an  appeal,  says,  in  general  terms,  that  any 
pwson  convicted  may  a])peal,  without  saying  upon  what  grounds  ;  so  there  ca^i  be  no 
doubt  the  one  thus  taken  is  open  to  tiie  a|)pellant.  The  <|uestion,  however,  arises.  How- 
should  the  Court  deal  with  an  appeal  u]>on  matters  of  evidence  .'  We  ha\e  no  precedents 
in  our  own  cour.t,but  the  decisions  in  Ontario  during  the  time  when  the  Act  resjiecting 
new  trials  and  apjieals,  and  wiit.s^  of  error  in  criminal  cases,  in  Upper  Canada  (Con. Stat. 
U.  C.  c.  113)  Wcie  in  force  there,  may  be  ivferivd  to  as- guides.  Hy  the  tirst  section,  of 
that  Act,  any  i)erson  convicted  of  any  treason,  felony,  or  mi.sdemeauour,  might  apply  for 
a  new  trial  upon  any  point  of  law,  or  ijuestion  of  fact,  in  as  amjile  a  manner  as  in  a  civil 
action. 

The  decisions  under  the  Act  ai«,uniform  and  consistent,  and  a.  few  of  tliem  may  be 
referred  to.  ■ 

The  earliest  caseupon  the  jioint,  and  iierhajis  the  leading  case,  is  A'''.'/-  '"•'  Chtifilia, 
14  U.  C.  C.  _P.  32.  in  which  the  prisoner  had  been  convicted  of  a  capital  oH'ence.  In 
giving  judgment,  Wifson,  .).,  said  :  "  In  passing  the  Act,  giving  the  right  f,o  the^iccuse<l 
to  move  for,  and  the  Court  to  grant,  a  new  trial,  I  do  not  .see  that  it  was  intended  to 
give'fcourtS'the  power  to  say  that  a  verdict  is  wrong,  because  the  jury  arrived  at  conclu- 
sions which  there  was  e\  idence  to  warrant :  although  from  the  same  state  of  Yacts,  other 
and  different  conclusions  might  fairly  have  been  drawn,  and  a  contrary  verdict  honestly 
given."  Richards,  C.  J.,^Ijefore  whom  the  case  had  been  tried,  said  :  "  If  I  had  been  on 
the  jury,  I  do  not  think  iNsjiould  have  arrived  at  the  same  conclusions,  but  as  the  law- 
casts  upon  them  the  responsibility  of  deciding  how-  far  they  will  give  credit  to  the  wit- 


189 


iy 


nesses  brouglit  before  them,  I  do  not  think  we  are  justified  in  reversing  their  decision, . 
unless ■Ve  can  lie  raitaiii  that  it  is  wronjf." 

In  Jit^y.  in.  ii'reenirtiod,  23  U.  C.  Q.  I>.  255,  a  case  m  w}iicli  the  prisoner  had  been 
convicted  of  murder,  llaf,'arty,  J.,  said  :  "  1  consider  that  1  discharge  my  diity  as  a  judge 
Itefore  whom  it  is  sought  to  obtain  a  new  trial  on  the  ground  of  the  alleged  weakness  of 
the  evidence,  or  of  its  weight  iu  eitliej  scale,  in  declaring  my  opinion  that  tliere  was  evi- 
dence proper  to  be  submitted  to  the  jutj'  ;  tliat  a  number  of  material  facts  and  circum- 
stances were  alledged  properly  before  tliem — links  as  it  were  in  a  chain  of  circumstantial 
\  evidence— which  it  was  their  especial  duty  and  jirovince  to  examine  carefuJly,  to  test 
■^  their  weight  and  adaptalnlity  each  to  the  other  *  *  *  *  To  adopt  any  other  view  of 
the  law,  would  be  simply  to  tiiinsfer  the  conclus^n  of  every  prisoner's  guilt  or  innocence 
from  the  jury  to  the  judges."        .  '^  r 

Rcij.  vs.  llitiiiiltoH,  16  U.  C.  C.  P.  340,  was  also  a  case  iu  which  the  prisoner  had/ 
been  coi\victed  of  murder.  Richards,  C.  J.,  who  delivered  the  judgment  of  the  court, 
said  :  "  We  are  not  justified  in  setting  aside  the  verdict,  unless  we  can  .say  the  jury  were 
wrong  in  the  conclusion  tliey  have  arrived  at.  It  is  not  suthcieut  that  we  would  not 
have  pronounced  the  same  verdict  ;  before  we  interfere  we  must  be  xafis/ir',/  they  have 
arrived  at  an  erroneous  conclusion.'  So,  in  Jii-(/.  fn.  Sidiloit.",  IG  I'.  C.  V.  P.  3^!t,  it  was 
said  ^•••  The  verdict  is  not  perverse,  nor  against  law  and  evidence  ;  and  althouL'h  it  mav 
be  somewhat  againsr  the  judge's  charge,  that  is  no  reason  for  interfering,  if  tliere  be 
evidence  to  sustain  the  finding,  iiecause  the  jury  are  to  judge  of  the  sulHciency  and  weight- 
•    of  the  evidence." 

In  /•'<•.'/.  o.  S/aiiii,  17  l^.  C.  C.  P.  205,  the  law  on  the  subject  was  thus  stated  :  *'  We 
do  not  jupfess  to  have  scanned  the  evidence  ,with  the  \  iew  of  saying  whetlier  the  jury 
might  or  might  not,  fairly  considering  it,  have  rAidereda  verdict  of  ac(|uittal.  We  have 
already  declared  on  se\eral  occasions  that  this  is  not  our  ]irovince  under  the  statute.  It 
is  sutHcient  for  jis  to  say  that  tliere  was  evidence  which   warranted  their  finding." 

The  learned  counsel  tor  the  aj)pellant  have  argued  \\  ith  gre;it  force  and  abilitv  that  "^ 
,  the  overwhelming  weight  of  the  evidence  is  to  establish  his  in.-^anity.  I'nder  the  autlk)- 
rities  cited,  all  that  my  duty  reipiires  me  to  do  is  to  seeif  there  is  any  evidence  to 
suppiirt  the  finding  of  the  jury,  which  implie.->  the  a]ipellant  sV«nTTty.  1  have,  liowever, 
read  carefully  the  evidence,  not  merely  that  of  the  experts,  and  what  bears  sjieciallv 
Uimn.this  point,  but  the  general  e\  idcnce.  It  seeiiuil  to  me  projur  to  do  so,  because  it 
is  only  after  acijuiriiig  a  knowledge  of  the  a]ipellant's  .  conduct  and  actioii.s  throughout, 
that  the  value  of  the  expert  evidence  can  be  jirojierly  estimated. 

After  a  critical  examination  of  the  evidence,  I  hnd  it  imjio.^sible  to  coi'ne  to  any- 
other  conclusion  than  that  at  which  the  jury  arrived.  The  apj>ellant  is,  beyond  all  doubt, 
a  man  of  inordinate  vanity,  excitable,  irritable  and  impatient  of  contradiction.  He 
seems  to  have  at  times  acted  in  an  extraordiiuiry  manner  ;  to  have  said  many  strange 
things,  and  to  have  entertained,  or  at  least  professed  to  entertain,  absurd  views  on  reli- 
gioul  and  political  subjects.  But  it  all  stops  far  short  of  establisliing  such  unsoundness 
of  mind  as  would  render  him  irresponsible,  not  jiccountable  for  his  actions.  His  course 
of  lionduct  indeed  shows,  in  many  ways,  that  the  whole  of  his  apparently  exttaonlinary 
conduct,  his  claims  to  divine  inspiration,  and  the  prophetic  character,  was  only  part  of  a 
cunningly  devi.sed  scheme  to  gain,  and,hohVJ.ii'luence  aiuLpower  oicr  the  simple  minded 
people  around  him,  and  to  secure  personal  immunity  iu  the  event  of  his  ever  being  called 
to  account  for  his  actions.  He  setsuis  to  have  hail  in  viewjj  llile  professing  to  cham|.ion 
[the  interests  of  the  Metis,  the  securing  of  pecuniary  aavantage  for  himself.  This  is 
evident  from,  among  other  circumstances,  the  conversation  detailed  by  the  Rev.  yif. 
.^dre.  .  Tiiat  gentleman,  after  he  had  spoken  of  the  appellant  claiming  that  he  should 
receive  from  thtf  Government  ^100,000,  but  would  be  willing  to  take  at  once  .<.'i.5,000 
cash,  was  asked.  "  Is  it  not  true  that  the  prisoner  told  you  that  he  himself  was  the  lialf- 
breed  question."  His  reply  is.  "He  did  not  say  so  in  express  terms,  but  he  conveyed  that 
ides.  He  said,  if  I  am  satisfied,  tlte  Half-breeds  will  be.  I  must  explain  this.  This 
objection  was  made  to  him,  that  even  if  tli6  Government  granted  him  :?35,000,  the  nalf- 

N 


IV 


190 


t\.iei  lo  coniiiiue  in  ins  reiiijious 
tioii  lie(was  not  ivsjxjiisilile — tlm 
CDulil  noT  suffer  any  coiitnulictioi 


1 


breed  "question 'would  rema'.n  the  same,  and  he  said  in  answer  to  fliat,  if  I  am  satisfied, 
the  .Jlalf-breeds  ivill  We."     ~-=^  , — ' 

He  also  says  that  tlie  priests  met  an<l  put  ttle  (juestioii  :  "  Is  it  possible  to  allow 
Riel  to  continue  in  his  reliifious  duties,  and  they  unanimously  decided   that  on  tJiis  (|nes- 

it  he  was  comiilcteiy  a  fool  on  tliis  (piestion  -that  he 
y  contradiction.  On  the  ipiestioiis  of  reli;;ion  and  politics  \vc  consi- 
dered that  he  was  completely  a  fool."  Tliere  is  nothing;  in  all  that  wliich  would  Justify 
the  conclusion  tliat  the  man  so  spoken  of  was  not  ies|ioij.silile  in  the  eye  of  the  law  for 
liis  ai'tions.  Many  people  are  iiii])atient  of  contradiction,  or  of  authority  lieiiif,'  exeici.sed 
hver  t-liem,  yet  they  cannot  on  lliat  account  secure  protection  from  the  con.sei|uences  of 
their  acts  as  heing  of  unsound  mind. 

The  IJev.  Mr,  Fourmond,  who  was  one  of  the  cleriry  who  met  for  the  pur|iose  spoken 

of.liy  the  ]{ev.  Mr.  Andre,  sliows  that  the.  conclusion  they  came  to,  was  (. e  to,  liec-auso  ' 

they  thought  it  the  more  charitable  one.      leather  than  .say  he  was  a  >.'reat  criminal,  they 
wi)uld  say  he  was  insane.      The  \  lews  the  a|)))ellant  professed  respect  i  0:4  the  Tiinity,  the 
H<rly  Spirit,  the  Viiijin  Mary,  the  authriritydf  the  clerj»y,  and  other  matters  were,  wliat  1 
shocked  these  gentlemen.      l$ui  here.^y  is  not  insanity,  at  least   in   t\w  legal'aml  medical 
senile  of  the  term.  • 

The  ifiost  ))Ositive  evidence  as  to  in.sanity  is  given  hy  Mr.  IJov,  tlie  medical  supe- 
Tinter.dent  of  He.iupfut  a.sylum,  in  which  ajipellant  resided-  for  ninefeen  months  about 
ten  vears  ago.  JUit  his  evidence  is  given  in  sucly  an  uiisatisfai^tdry  way,  so  vaguely,  and 
with  sucli  an  evident  effort  to  avoiil  answering  plain  and  direct  i|Uestions,  as  to  lender  it 
■to  mv  mind  exceedingly  unreliable.  The  other  medieal  «itnes.>\\ho  sjieaks  to  hi.»  insanity 
is  l)r.  Clark,  of  the  Toronto  a.syliim.  He  .says;  "Thi'  prisoner  is  ci'rtainly  of  in.sane 
mind,"  but  he  (pialities  that  o]iinion  by  ja-efacing  it  with  the  stati  iiient,  ••assuming  that 
he  was  not  a  malingeier."  And  even  he  .says  :  ••  1  think  he  was  i|Viite  ca])able  of  distin- 
guishing right  from  vyrong."  Against  the  evidence  of  tliese^ gentlemen  there  is  that  o^ 
Dr.  Wallace,  of  the  Haiiiilton  asylum,  ami  Di. . J  ukes,  the  senior  surgeon  of  the  mounted 
police  force,  both  of  wliom  are  (juite  positive  in   giving  opinioii.s  of   the  appellant's  sanity. 

It   was   contended   that  the  very  fact  that  he,  a  man  who  iiad  seen  the  world,  could 
ever  hojie  to  succeed  in  a  rebellion,  liml  contend  successfully  with   the  force   of   the    Do- 
minion, backed  as  that  would   be,  in  case  of  need,  l)y  all  the  power  of   Kngland,  was  in 
itself,  conclusive   proof  of   insanity.      I!ut  the  evidence  of  .several  witnesses,  specially  of 
Captain  Young,  shows  that  he  never  had  any  idea  of  entering  seriously  into  such  a  i-on- 
test.     The  a]>pellant  t(jld  that  witness  that  he  was  ilbt  so  foolish  as  to  imagine   that   he 
couhl  wage  war  against  Canada  and  Britain.      His  plan,  a.s  he  detailed  it,  wi*s  to  try  and 
capture  at  puck  Lake,  Major  Crozier  and  his  force  of  police,  alid  then,  liolding  them  iu;' 
liostage<^wm pel  the  government  to  awede  to  his   demands.      What   these  were   he   had 
alreadyTold  the  Rev.  .Mr.  Andre -81  OO.tXjO,  or  in  cash  .<:b'>,ljt)(»,  and  if  he  could  not  get 
even  that,  then  as  much  as  lie  could.      Having  failed  to  cajiture  .Major  Crf)zier,  he  ho|>ed 
to  draw  into  a  snare  (icneial  Mi'ddletun  and  a  small  force,  in  order  t()  hold  them   as  hos-  j 
tages  for  a  like  j)Uii)ose.      The  lighting  which  actually  took   placo  was   not  the  means  by  j 
which  he  had  hoiied    to  secure  his   ends.      The  Ke\.  Mr.  I'itblado  gives  evidence  similar/ 
to  tiiat  of  Captain  Young.  "•'^  <* 

Certainly  the  e\idence  entirely  fails  to  relieve  tin;  appellant   from   responsibility  foil, 
liis  conduct,  if  the  rule  laid  down  by  the   judges -in    reply  to  a  i|uestion    put  to   tiiem   byV 
the  House  of  Lf)rds,  in  MurXanliti-i,')!  Ci(se,  10  (:'].  iV-  Fin.  2Ulj,  be  the  sound  one.      TiiatJ 
rule  was  thus  expressed  :■••  Notwitlistanding  the  party  accu.-ed  did  the  act  comjihtined  of,f 
with  a  view,  under  the  influence  of  insane  delusion,  of  redressing  or  revenging  .some  sup-'i 
posed  grievance  or  injury,  iH;-of  producing  some  public  benelit,  he  is  nirverthel<>.ss  punish- 
able, according  to  tin;  natureJof  the  crime  committed,  if  he  kii(;w  at  the  time  of  commit- 
ting such  crime  that  he  was  fUiijig  contraiy  to   law  ;  by  which   exj)re.ssion  we  mean,  the 
law  of  the  land."     This  lias,  I  believe,  ever  since  it  was  laid  down,  been  regaided  as  the 
sound  and  correct  rule  of  law  on  this  subject. 

In  my  judgment- a  new  trial  must  be  refused,  and  the  conviction  allirmed. 


i 


191 

KiLLAM,  J. — I  concur  fully  in  the  conclusions  of  my  brother-jud^'es  and  iu  the 

•  reasons  siipportiui,'  the  same,  witli  the  exception,  perhai)s,  of  holding  somewhat  different 
ojiinions  from  some  of  tliose  expressed  liy  the  Chief  Justice  as  to  the  etieet  of  the  sub- 
section of  the  7(itli  section  of  tlie  Xortli-West  Teiritoiics  Act,  ie(iuiiiug  full  notes  of  the 
eviilence  to  he  taken  upon  the  trial,  and  as  to  the  form  of  the  charge  in  (juestion.  Were 
it  not  for  the  importance  of  the  case,  and  that  a  mere  formal  concurrence  in  the  judg- 
ments of  the  othur  members  of  the.  Court  might  appear  to  arise  to  some  extent  from 
some  disinclination  to  consider  fully  and  to  discuss  the  important  ((uestions  that  have 
heen  raised,  I  should  rather  have  felt  inclined  to  say  merely  that  I  agree  with  the 
opinions  which  those  judgments  ex]>ress. 

What  I  shall  add  has  been  written  after  having  had  a  general  idea  of  the  views  of 
my  brother-judges,  but  princijially  before  I  had  an  oppo,i'tunity  of  perusing  the  full  ex- 
pression of  their  views,  and  with  d  desire  to  present  some  views  upon  which  they  might 
not  touch,  rather  than  with  tlie  idea'  that  their  opinious  required  to  be  difFerf-utly  ex- 
presse(|. 

I  need  not  recapitulate  the  facts  of  the  case  or  the  proceedings  taken,  and  1  %vill 
refer  to  the  statutes  less  fully  than  if  I  were  delivering  the  sole  judgment  of  the  Court. 
■  The  prisoner  tirst  ])leaded  to  the  jurisdiction  of  the  Coutt  before  which  he  was 
arraigned,  and  to  this  plea  counsel  for  th«  Crown  tlemurred.  Tlie  decision  of  the  Court 
allowijig  tilt!  demurreriforms  one  of  the  grounds  of  this  appeal.  The  judgment  on  this 
,^lemurrer  appears  to' have  been  based  upon  the  decision  of  this  Court  in  K  ister  Term  last, 
in  the  CJisit  of  lifiiinn  v.  Coinur,  in  which  tin?  prisoner  appealed  against  a  conviction  for 
murder  llA' a  couit  constituted  exactly  as  in  the  present  instance.  I  was  not  present 
uj)on  the  hearing  of  the  appeal  in  that  ca.se,  and  judge  of  |he  points  rai.sed  only  from  the 
report  in  the.-iM.\srroii.\  L.vw  RKt'oUTs.  From  that  report  it  does  not  appear  that  the 
jurisdiction  of  the  Court  was  .so  much  objected  to  i^the  mode  in  which  the  piisoner  was 
charged  with  the  otl'ence,  it  being  contended  that  he  should  In'  tried  only  upon  an  indict- 
mejit  f<'iund  by  a  gnind  jury,  ofa  charge  maile  upon  a  coroner's  in(iuest.  It  seems,  not- 
withstanding that  decision,  still  to  be  open  to^ie  ]>risoner  to  ipiestiou  the  jKiWer  of  Par- 
liament to  establish  the  Court  f<U'  the  trial  of  the  otfence  charged  against  hiui.  1  mean 
that  the  point  is  not  vet  fi  n  Jinlirdtd  so  far  as  this  Court  is  concerned.  .  Kven  if  it  were 
so,  in  the  event  of  am|-Hew  argununif  of  importance  being  addui-ed  by  the  present  or  any 
other  ajipellant,  it  <?<7iild^be  (piite  competent  for  this  Court,  though  nV>t  for  the  Court 
*    below,  to  reconsider  the  decision. 

The  authority  of  the  PtH'liament  of  Canada  to  institute  such  a  Court,  and  parti- 
cularly to  do  so  {(IV  the  trial  of  a  iiei-son  ui>on  a  chai-ge  of  hi:,'h   treason,  is  now  denied  : 
and  it  is  also  contended  for  the  prisoner  that  the  statute  was  not  intended  to  jiroviile  for 
the  trial  of  a  charge  of  that  nature.      It  has  bei-n  argued  that  the  powers  <if  the  Canadian 
Parliament  are  delegated  to  it  by  the  Imperial  Parliament,  and  that  they  must  be  consi- 
dered to  haveTieen  given  s\ibj6ct  to  the  rights. guaranteed  to  I'.ritish  subjects  by  theCouif 
mon  Law  of  England,  Magna  .(.'liarta,  the  Bills  of  Rights,  and  many  •statutes  enacted   by 
the   Imperial  Parliament,  among  which  rights  are  chiinujd  to  be  the  right  of  a  party 
'"jaqcused "of  crime  to  a  trial  by  a\jury  of  twelve  of  his  i)eers,  who  must  all  agree-in  their 
^    wnlict  before  he  can  be  convicted,  and  the  right  of  a  party  accused  of  high  treason  to 
>'     certaiinsafeguards  •jirovided  in  cmniection  with  the  proi-edure  upon  his  trial.      It  is  also 

•  argued  that  high  treason  is  a  crime  siii  (jfwrin  :  that  it  is  an  ort'ence  against  the  sover- 
eign authority  of  the  state  ;  and  that  it  must  be  presuaned,  notwithstanding  the  pryvisions 
of  the  Hritish  North  Ameiica  Acts  and  the  other  Acts  gi\  ing  the  Parliunieut  of  Canada 
aiJthor.ity  in  the  North- WesfTerritories,  that  the  Imperial  Parlianunt  still  reserved  the 
right  to  nnijcv laws  respecting  high  treason  and  the  mode  of  trial  for  that  otleuce  ;  and 
also  that  the^^Wftvisions  of  the  Act  i'-i  \  ic.  c.  L'."),  s.  7ti,  are  inconsistent  with  enactments 
of  the  Imperial  Parlianu'nt,  ainJ  therefore  inoperative.  There  can  be  no  doubt  that  the 
Imperial  Parliament  has  full  ))lwer  to  legislate  away  any  of  the  rights  claimed  within 
Great  Hritain  and  Ireland.  Its  position  is  not  in  any  way  analogous  to  that  of  the 
Legislatures,  either  State  or  Federal,  under  the  Constitution  t)f  the  I'aiiteil  States,  and 
the  Atnerican  authorities   cited  by   counsel   for  the  prisoner  can  have   no  application. 


) 


% 


192 


There  is  no  power  unfler  the  British  Constitution  to  question  the  authority  of  Pivrliiunent. 
It  may  yet  luiveto  l)e  considered  whether  it  has  so  etteotually  <;iven  up  its  powers  of 
le<;islation  in  re;,'ard  to  tlie  internal  afliiirs  of  Canada,  l)y  the  Hritisli  North  America 
Act  and  soniH  otlier  statutes,  that  it  cannot  resume  them  ;  whether,  in  ease  of  a  conHict 
between  tlie  Parliament  of  Canada  and  tlie  Imperial  Parliament,  the  Courts  of  Canada 
ai-e  hound  by  ti»e  enactments  of  the  one  or  the  other  ;  but  these  are  questions  which  need 
not  now  be  decided.  It  is  true  tliat  the  Parliament  of  Canada  is  the  creature  of  statute, 
and  that  its  powers  cannot  be  sreater  than  the  statutes  expressly  or  impliedly  bestow 
uj)on  it,  but  there  has  been  no  attempt  by  the  Imperial  Parliament  to  take  away  or  to 
encroacji  upon  the  powers  niven  to  tlie  Parliament  of  Cauachi,  and  we  have  nothing  to 
do  at  present  with  speculations  upon  the  eflect  of  such  an  attempt.  The  British  North 
A)nerica  Act,  ISO",  be>riiis  with  the  recital  that  the  Provinces  of'  Canada,  Nova  .Scotia 
and  New-Brunswick  "  liave  expressed  their  desire  to  be  federally  united  into  one 
Dominion  under  the  (.'i-own  of  the  I'nited  Kinj^dom  of  (ireat  Britain  and  Ireland,  witli 
a  constitution  similar  in  jirincLjile  to  that  of  tlie  I'nited  Kiuf^dom."  By  section  1)  tlie 
executive  {government  aiul  authority  of  and  nver  Canada  are  declared  to  lie  vest<nl  in  the' 
Queen.  I'nder  section  17  there  is  '"one  Parliament  '  for  (Aiuaila,  consist ini,'  of  the 
Queen,  an  rp))er'l{<<use — styled  th<'  Senate — and  the  House  of  Commons.  By  section 
IS  the  i)rivilei,'e.s,  innnunities  and  jKjwers  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Ccjmmons  are  to  be 
.  such  as  are  from  time  to  time  defined  l)y  the  Parliament,  but  so  as  not  to  exceed  tlicjse  of 
the  British  House  of  Commons  at  the  passinj;  of  the  Act. 

It  thus  appears  that  the  Pailiament  of  Canada  is  not,  within  its  lei,'i.slative  powers, 
placed  in  an  inferior  position  to  that  of  ]>ritain.  The  Sovereijin  form  as  inte-jial  jiurt  of 
the  Canadian  as  of  tlie  British  I'arliament.  the  K.xecutive  authority  is  vested  in  tliH 
Queen.  So  far  as  relates  to  her  internal  ati'airs,  Canada  stands  in  a  ]>osition  of  eijual 
dignity  and  importance  with  the  I'nitid  Kioicdom,  and,  exce|it  in  so  far  as  the  action  of 
the  Sovereijjn  may  be  indirectly  controlled  by  the  Imperial  Parliament,  Canada  stands 
in  this  respect  rather  in  the  position  of  a  sister  kinfjdoni  than  in  that  of  a  dependiMicy. 

It  is  ])rincipaily  by  the  Dlst  section  that  the  lej^islative  authority  of  tlie  Canadian  ' 
Parliament  is  defined  ;  and  under  this  section  it  can  "  make  laws  for  tli^  peace,  order an<l 
good  government  of  Canada,"  in  relation_to  all  matters  not  ccjmliij;  within  the  classes  of 
subjects  assigned  exclu.-ively  to  the  Legislatures  of  the  Provinces.  15v  a  ]iortion  of 
section  14<i  provision  is  made  for  the 'admission  by  Order  in  Council  of  Ituperts  Land 
and  the  North-Wcst  Teiuitories  upon  addresses  from  the  Canadian  Houses  of  Parliament, 
ajid  under  this  provision  and  under  the  Rupert's  Land  Act,  .'H  and-.'iu'  Vic.  c.  10.5,  anil 
the  British  North  America  Act,  1S71,  HI  and  .b'l  A'ic.  c.  1'8,  the  North-West  Territories 
have  been  added  to  the  Dominion.  By  these  two  latter  Acts  the  jurisdiction  and 
powei-s  of  the  ■Parliament  of  Canada  are  enlarged,  both  as  to  the  territory  over  wliich 
they  may  be  exercised  and  the  subjects  upon  which  laws  may  be  enacted.  There  are  no 
Provincial  Legislatures  (except  in  Manitoba)  to  share  in  the  legislation,  and  there  is  no 
qualification  of  or  exception  from  the  powei-  of  legislation  "upon  all  matters  and  subjects 
relating  to  the  "  jjt'ace,  order  and  good  government"  of  Her  Majesty's  \subjects  and 
othexs  in  these  added  territorie.s.  Over  tlie.se  territories  and  with_the  addition  of  these 
subjects  of  legislation  the  I'arliament  of  Canada  is  in  the  same  position  4s  it  iii:«S'nver  the 
llojninion  when  first  foiiiie<l,and  in  re.s])ect  of  the  subjects  of  legislation  committe4_  to  it 
by  the  liiitish  North  America  Act,  1S67.  -  .  ■  ■ 

The  American^  theory  of  constitutioiial-govemnientis,  that  the  legislatures  are  com- 
posed of  delegates  from  the  peojjle,  and  that  certain  rights  and  fwwei-s  only  are  committed 
to  them,  and  that  the  peojde  have  retained  to  tliemselves  certain  riglits  necessary  to  the 
free  enjoymfent  of  life  and  liberty  which  the  legislatures  have  been  given  no  power  to  inter- 
fere witli;  and  it  is  now  attempted  to  apj)ly  the  terin  "delegated  "  t«  the  bestowal  by 
the  Imperial  upon  the  Dominion  Parliament  of  the  powers  of  legislation  conferred  by  the 
Confederation  and  itlier  Acts,  and  in  this  way  to  introduce  the  same  theory  into  tlie 
consideration  of  our  constitution.  The  principle  of  the  British  Constitution  is,  howtf^r 
that  the  people  of  tlie  State,  the  three  estates  of  realm,  composed  of  the  Sovereigiij"  thft 
Lords  and  the  Commons,  are  all  assembled  in  Parliament,  and  that  the  enactments  of* 


'^  198  ,  1     ^ 

Parliament  are  those  of  the  whole  nation,  and  not  of  delegates  frointhe  people.  ^Froni 
this  necessarily  follows  the  complete  supremacy  of  Parliajnent,  its  power  to  legislate  away 
the  rights  guaranteed  l>y  Magna  Charta,  the  Bill  of  Rights,  or  any  enactments  of  Par- 
liament or  charters  of  the  Sovereign.  As  is  saidibyXiord  Campbell  in  Logmi.  vs.  Murslem, 
4  Moore  P.  C.  Cas.  296  :  "  As  to  what  has  been  said  as  to  a  law  not  being  binding  if  it 
lie  contrary  to  reason,  that  can  receive  no  countenance  from  any  court  of  justice  what- 
ever. A  court  of  justice  caiuiot  set  itself  above  the  legislature.  It  must  suppose  tliat 
what  the  legislature  has  enactarfis  reasonable,  and  all,  therefore;,  that  we  can  do  is  to  try, 
and/Knd  out  what  thelegislature  intended."  ,^  -  ( 

As_^liis  Dominion  was  intended  to  be  formed  "with  a  Constitution  similar  in  prin- 
ciple to  that  of  the  Vnited  Kingdom,"  having  a  Parliament"  not  of-nn  inferior  character,  . 
but  of  the  dignity  and  imjiortance  to  which  I  have  referred;  there  can  be  doubt  that,  in 
this  respj'ct,  it  stands  in  the  same  position  as  the  Imperial  Parliament  with  regard  to  the 
StrtTject  mattei-s  upon  which  it  may  legislate.  That  thi.?  is  so  has  been  determined  by 
judirial  decision.  Mr.  Justice  Willes,  in.  I'hiUijix  \f..  Eijr^\,.  K.  C  l^.  I!.  "JO,  says  :"-A 
confirmed  Act  of  the  local  Legislature,  whether  in  a  seltU-Jror  coni|Uered  colony,  has,  as 
to  matters  witliiu  its  competence  and  the  limits  of  its  jurisdiction,  the  operation  and  force 
of  sovereign  legislation,  t^iough  subject  to  lie  controlled  by  the  Imperial  Parliament."'  In 
the  (SihUihi-  W'\U  r^-v.-,/!',!  ()jr.  .'iSl',  Draper,  C.  J.,  having  reference  to  an  -Vet  of  the 
Provincial  Legislature  of  (Tiitaiio,  says  :  "  As  in  England  it  is  a  settled  principle  that  the 
Legislature  is  the  supreme  power,  so  in  this  Province  I  apprehend  that,  within  the  limits 
mapped  out  by  the  authority  wliich  gave  us  our  present  constitution,  the  legislature  is  ' 
tlie  supreme  power."'  This  view  of  the  position  of  the  Provincial  Legislatures  is  upheld 
by  t lie  Privy  Council  in  Ihiihif  \a.  Thf  Qiin'n,  L.  Pi.  il  App.  Cas.  117.  In  V(tliH  vs. 
Lnnijlois,  3  Suin  (.'.  U.  1,  Ritchie,  C.  J.,  says:  "  I  think  tlmt  the  Briti.sh  Xorth  America 
Act  vests  in  the  Dominion  Parliament  plenary  power  of  legislation,  i4i  no  way  liuiited  or 
circum.srribed,  and  as  large  and  of  the  ^ame  nature  and  e.xtent  as  the  Parliament  of 
<ireat  Uritaiii,  by  wiiom  the  power  to  legislatti  was  conferred,  itself  had.  The  Parliament 
of  Ureal  Itritain  clearly  intentled  to  divert  itself  of  all  legislative  power  o\er  this  &vibject 
matter,  and  it  is  eipially  clear  that  what  it  ilixested  itself  of,  it  conferred  wholly  and 
exclusively  upon  tjie  Parliament  of  the  Domiillon.'  .\nd  this  doctrine  of  a  delegation  of 
powers  cannot  be  more  ajitly  met  than  in  the  judgineiO-of  the  Privy  Council  in  Itiijina 
vs.  Murali.  L.  K.  ;i  App.  Cas.  f<(<"J,  referred  to  by  niy  brother  Taylor.  The  iollowing 
rejnarks  of  Lord  Selborne  are  so  applicable  that  I  must  rejieal  them.  He  says  (p.  it04): 
'■'^he  Indian  LegislatureNias  powers  expres.sTy  limited  I>y  the  Act  of  the  Imperial  Par- 
liament, which  created  it,  and  it  can  of  course  ilo  nothing  beyond  the  limits  which  circum- 
scribe those  powers,  liut  when  aclil^g  within  those  limits  it  is  not  in  any  sense  an 
agent  or  delegate  of  the  Imjierial  Parliament,  but  has  and  was  intendetl  to  have  plelHiry 
jiowers  of  legislation,  as  large  and  of  the  same  nature  as  those  of  Parliament  •itself."' 
«  I  take  it  that  the  plenary  powers  of  legislation  conferreil  upon  the  Parliament  of 
Canada  include  the  right  to  alter  or  n-peal  prior  Acts  of  the  Imperial  Parliamenr  upon 
subjects  upon  wliich  the  Canadian  Parliament  is  given  power  to  legislate,  so  far  as  the 
internal  government  of  Canada  is  concerned.  The  powers  which  the  Imperial  Parlia- 
ment alone  could  formerly  exercise  upon  these  subjects  in  our  North-West,  whether  by 
making  laws  entirely  new,  or  by  re]ieal  or  amendment  of  existiiijg  laws,  our  Parliament 
can  now  exercise.  S'or  do  I  think  that  the  Im)ierial  Act,  28  it  |"_'y  Vic.  c.  Li,  is  incon- 
sistent w  ith  that  view.  I'nder  .section  2  of  that  Act,  "  Any  Colonial  law  which  is  or 
shall  be  is  any  respect  repugnant  to  the  provisions  of  any  Act  of  Parliament  extending 
to  the  (/olony  to  which  such  law  may  relate,  or  rejiugnant  to  any  order  or  regulation 
made  i{juler  authority  of  sucli  Act  of  Parliament,  or  having  iu  the  Colony  the  force  and 
efiFect  or&uch  .AxJt^Jshall  be  rea<l  subject  to  such  Act,  tJrder  or  liegulation,  and  shall  to 
the  extent  Tif  such  repugnancy,  but  not  otherwise,  be  and  remain  absolutely  void  and 
inoperative."  This  is  not  in  aiiy  sense  an  Act  of  Interpretation  of  Imperial  Statutes, 
which  is  to  be  considered  as  part  of  and  to  be  read  with  Acts  of  the  Imperial  Parlia- 
ment, luul  if  it  is  repugnant  to  the  British  North  America.  Xct,^iiiS~i ,  anil  if  by  the 
latter  Act  powers  are  given  to  the  Parliament  of  Canada  without  the  limitation  iuiposed 

.  13 


194      .  1 

liy  the  former  Act,  tlie  British  North  America  Act,fcjJ)eiiig  the  later  one,  must  prevail. 
But  even  without  this  view,  I  cannot  think  tliat  wie  repuf^nancy  referred  to  is  such  as 
would  be  involved  Iiy  a»  amendment  or  repeal  of  an  Act  of  the  Imperial  Parliament 
upon  a  subject  U|)on  which  plenary  jiowers  of  le;;islatioii  were  subseiiueiitly  ^iven  to  the  • 
ParliamPiit  of  (,'anada.  There  could  only  be  considered  to  be  re))U;;n.incy  within  the 
meaning  of  the  Ai't  if  it  ap]ieaied  by  the  Imperial  Act  tliat  it  was  to  remain'  in  force 
notwithstanding  any«8ubse(|uent  action  of  the  colonial  It^gislature.  or  if  it  were  enacted 
after  the  plenary  |)Owers  of  legislation  were  granted,  and  were  thus  shown  to  be  intended 
to  override  any  Act  which  the  colonial  legislature  had  passed  or  might  tliert-after  pass. 
It  will  be  observed  also  that  it  is  only  an  Act  of  Parliament  "  extending  to' the  Colony  " 
to_which  reference  is  made  in  the  section  cited  ;  an<l  by  the  first  si-ction  of  the  Act,  in 
construing  the  Act,  "An  Act  of  Parliament Or  any  ])rovision  thereof,'^- it*  only  to  be 
'said  to  "  exten<l  to  any  colony  when  it  is  made  a]i|)licable  to  the  colony  by  tln^  express 
words  or  necessary  intendment  of  any  Act  of  Parliament."  And  by  section-;},  "  No  Co- 
lonial law  shall  be  deemeil  to  have  been  void  or  inoperative  on  the  ground  of  rejiugnancy 
to  the  law  of  England,  unless  the  same  shall  I»e  repugnant  to  the  |)n>viM(ins  of  .some  such 
V  Act  of  Parliament,  Order,  or  Regulation  iis  aforesaid."'  Thu.^  it  was  evidently  not  the 
intention  to  exclude  the  .Colonial  legislatures  from  m.ijiing  laws  inconsi.stent  with  Uio.se 
which  may  have  been  enacted  by  the  British  Parlianieut  for  Brit.iin  or  tlu^  ITiitwl 
Kingdom  j>articularly,  and  which  niiiy  be  in  force  in  the^olony  sohdy  by  virtui-  ot  the 
principle  that  the  British  subjects  settling  therein  carrieil  with  them  the  laws  of  Biftain, 
or  tha£  by  comjui's^;  the  laws  of  Britain  came  in  fon'c.  By  the  tifth  .seciion  of  Jliis  .same 
Act,  "  Kvery  c(jlojiial  legislature  .shall  have  and  be  deemed  at  all  times  to:hav<^  had 
full  power  within  its  jurisdiction  to  establish  ci/urts  of  judicature,  iTnd  to  aboli.sh  and  re- 
constitute the  sam|B,  ;tnd  to  alter  the  constitution  tfiereof,  and  to  make  ])r(ivl.si()n  fnr  the 
a^Jministration  ofi  justice  therein.  '  It  must  surely,  then,  not  have  been  inleifcled  that 
such  a  legislature  should  be  limited  in  its  establishi(fi*iit  iff  the.>e  courts,  a^ul  in  its 
regulation  of  the  procedure  therein,  to  courts,  constituted  as  tlio.se  of  Knglaild,  and  a 
procedure  similar  to  that  which  Parliament  has  thought  proper  to  estalilish  foi-  Hnglish 
Courts,  or  to  a  jury  system  which  can  be  ti-aced  back  to  the  early  ages-of  English  history, 
or  even  t.o  trial  by  jury  at  all.       ,  ' 

-Nor  can  1  see  any  reason  to  suppose  that^it  was  iif5t  intended  tlmt  the  Parl'iainent 
of  Canada  sd)ould  not  have  puwer  to  legislate  regarding  the  crime  of  treason  in  (janada. 
It  certainly  seems  to  be  given  when  j>ower  is  given  to  make  laws  for  the  peace,  order 
and  good  government  of  (.-'anada.  Even  jurisdiction  to  declare  what  shall  be  ami  what 
shall  not  be  acts  of  trea.son,  when  connnitted  within  Canada,  against  the  |)erson  of  the 
Sovereign  herself, '  might  .safely  4>e  committed  to  the  Parliament  of  Canada  wliiui  the 
.Sovereign  is  a  part  of  Parliament,  and  has  also'power  of  disallowance  of  Acts,  even  after 
they  have  been  assented  to  in  her  name  bjr  the  tiovernor  (JeneraY  The  ]>ro]irietv  or 
impropriety  of  providing  for  the  .selection  of  a  jury  by  a  stipendiary  magistrate  appoiiJMk 
.by  the  Crowir'.to  hold  oltice  during  pleasure,  of  reducing  to  so  small  a  numbei'l^| 
peremptory  challenge.s,  and  other  pi'ovisions  relating  to  the  constitution  of  the  i-ourt  ai^l 
the  mode  of  procedure  to  whfch  objection  has  been  made,  is  for  Parliament  and- not  for 
the  Courts  to  decide.  We  can  only  decide  whether  Parliament  has,  as  I  think  it  clearly 
apjiear/i  that  it  has,  even  without  the  Rupert's  Land  Act,  full  power  to  constitute  courts 
and  to  determiiie  their  method  of  procedure.  With  the  provision  in  the  Ru))ert's  Land 
Act,  authoi;izing  the  Parliament  of  Canada  "  to  constitute  such  courts  and  otHiers  as 
may  be  neces^iry  for  the  peace,  order  and  good  government  of  Her  .Majesty's  Subjects 
and  Qthei-s  "  in  the  North- West  Territories,  it  does  not  ap|>ear  that  tht*e  can  be  any 
doubt  that  such  courts  are  to  be  constituted  with  power  to  try  a  charge  of  high  treason, 
as  well  as  any  other  charge.  ! 

That  the  Canadian  Parliament  intended  that  the  Court  constituted  under  the  North- 
West  Territories  Act  of  1880,  section  7ti,  sub-sections  5  and  following  sub-.sections 
should  have  power  to  hear  and  try  a  charge  of  treason,  tliere  can  be  no  doubt.  After 
proxision  is  made  for  the  trial  of  certaiil  charges  in  a  summary  way,  without  a  jury,  the 
provision  ill  sub-section  5  "is  tliat\"/M  all  other  crimittai  casen  (which  must  include  a  case 

■  .  '  .  V, 

.         '■      '  .         .        ■    ■■  ''■  ■  '  -     ^         , 


f 


105 


fiixli  ti-Qiison)  the  stipendiary  iijafjistratejind  a  justice  of  the  peace,  with  the  intetven- 

of  a  .jury  of  six,  may  try  «;»//  change,  against  any  persoii  or  persons  ior^tny  crime  " 
licli  must  inchuU^  tlie  urinip  of  tr^^son). 

.Sul)-section  10  ])rovi(les  tliat  "any  person  arraigned  for  treason  of  felony  may  chal- 
/enge  prreni))torily  and  wiflioiit  cause  not  more  than  six<jurors."  It  was  remarked  that 
/this  is  the  only  mention  of  treason  in  the  Act,  but  it  was  the  only  occasion  for  its  Vieing 
rspecialiy  mentioned;  In  view  of  the  peculiar  right  of  challenge  in  a  case  of  treason, 
under  the  laws  of  England,  it  was  important  to  jilace  it  beyond  doubt,  by  sjiecial  men- 
tioii,  that  in  a  ca«e  of  treason  as  in  any  otiier  case  the  number  of  peremjitory  challenges 
was  to  be  limited  to  six.  Tlie  wording  of  the  sub-section  may  not  be  strictly  correct,  as 
not  lecognizing  that  treason  is  a  felony,  but  th(^  subosection  is  not  on  that  account  of  any 
less'iniportahce  as  sho«ing  the  intention  to  give  to  the  court  jurisdiction  over  a  charge 
of  treason. 

I  cannot  agree  wi+h  the  argunn^nt  of  counsel  for  the  Crown,  that  an  objection  to 
the  inforniatijin  is  not  o|icii  on  this  ajipeal,' on  account  of  the  prisoner  having  pleatled  to 
the  cliaige.  He  demurred  to  tiie  cliarge,  and  his  <lenuirrer  being  oviMruled  lie  was 
obliged' to  |ilead.  Tliere  is  no  indictment,  and  I  do  not  think  that  an  olijectiiui  |o  the 
charge  need  bt!  by  a  formal  deniuircr.  In  fact,  it  appears  th;ii  the  proceedings  i|iay  be 
of  the  most  informal  cliaracter.  tjnder  section  77,  "a  |)er.son  convicted  of  an  ott'ence 
]>unishalp|e  iiy  death  "  has  a  right  of  ajipeal  to  tliis  court,  which  lias  juri-.tliction  "  to  con- 
linn  the  conviction  ijr  to  order  a  new  trial.  There  can  be -no  itppeal  until  there  has 
been  a  conviction,  and  I  Cannot  see  that  (lie  prisoner  should  be  prevented  from  making 
ityUy  ]ioint  that  he  may  raise  in  ^ny  way  before  tiie  court  below  the  subject  of  a[i[>eal.  Jf 
a  new  trial  should  in  any  case  be  granted  on  the  ground  of  a  defect  in  the  charge,  it 
would  undoidilWIIv  be  allowed  to  the  prisoner  to  withdraw  his  plea  when  he  should  be 
again  brought  up  bn'  trial,  if  this  were  considere^l  necessary  in  order  to  give  eti'ect  to  t^e 
<ibjection.  Indeed,  it  Tippears  tojne  tliat  this  woidd  not  be  necessary,  for  I  am  of  opinion 
th&  uiMin  a  new  trial,  everything  must  be  begun  </"  iiora,  and  the  prisoner  asked  to  plead 
agiini.  There  is  no  ciuiit  continuing  all  the  time  befoi;e  which  he  has  jileaded  ;  there 
must  be  a  new  court  established  for  tlie  trial  of  each  "charge,  and  the  procec^dings  upon 
the  liist  trial  cannot  be  incorporated  with  tho.se  upon  the  .second. 

In  my  opinion,  it  is  not  necessary  that  i*.  ••  charge,'  within  the  nuMiiing  of  sub- 
section •">,  should  be  made  on  oath  before  the  court  having  the  jurisdiction  to  try  the 
charge.  l!y  .sectiitn  7tj,  the  stipendiary  magistrate  is  given  the  "  magis;erial~n4ad  ■  other 
funciions  of  a  justice  of  the-^ieace,'  and  jiower  to  ••  hear  and  determine  a~ny  charge 
against  any  persoji  '  in  the  manner  set  out  in  the  various  sub  .sections  of  tiie  secti/>n.  I 
take  it  that  the  "cliarge  '  referred  to  in  the  ,Tth  subsection  is  one  laid  before  fiini  by 
information,  as  before  a  justice  of  the  peace,  to  ]>rocure  the-  committal  of  a-]>arty  for 
trial.  The  charge  having  been  so  made  hi^  has  to  summon  the  jury  and  ])i'(,>cure  the  at- 
tendance of  a  justice  of  the  peace,  and  before  the  court  so  constituted  the  cluirge  is  to  be 
tried.      This  is  what  has  been  done  in  the  present  instance. 

The  remaining  objection  pf  law  to  the  convii^tion  is  to  the.  method  of  taking  the 
notes  of  the  evidence,  I  cannot  agree  in  the  view  oliat  the  clau.se  reijuiring  full  notes  of 
the  evidence  £y»d  other  proceedings  to  be  taken  uponjthe  trial  is  directory  merely.  Wliether 
the  notes  are  to^be  taken  merely  for  transmission  to  the  minister  of  Justice,  as  required 
y  tlie  8th  sub^section,  or  with  a  view  also  to  use  upon  tlie  a})peal  allowed,  it  i.s  equally 
iiportaiit  tliat  they  be  taken.  If  it  is  only  with  a  vi^v  to  their  transmission  to  the 
linister,  as  the  Kth  sub-section  also  provides  for  the  postponement  of  the  execution  of  a 
sentence  of  death  until  the  pleasure  of  the  (iovernor  has  been  coniinunicated  to  the 
Lieutenant  Governor,  it  is  an  important  part  of  the  procedure  at  the  trial  tha^the  iigtes 
of  evideiu;e  be  taken  in  order  that  the  action  of  tlie  KyecuSive  may  be  based  upon  the  real 
facts  proved;  almost,  if  not  quite,  as  important  as  that  the  evidence  should  be  (laid  pro- 
perly before  the  jury  itself.  I  should  not  hesitate  to  adju<lge. illegal  a  conviction  of  a 
capital  ott'ence  shown  to  have  been  oVitained  upon  a  trial  so  cimducted  that  these  facts 
could  not  be  properly  laid  before  the  Executive  by  the  notes  of  evitlence,  for  which  the 
statute  provides,  taken  down  during  the  progress  of  tlie  trial. 


) 


\ 


r 


I 


196 


1. 

s 


It  appears  hyj  the  certificate  of  the  magistmte  tliat  the  only  full  notes  of  t 
evidence  takcH— a*  the  tiial  were  taken  liy  "  short-haf'ifl  reporters  "  appointed  Iiy  the  ni 
gistrate.  Althot^h  it  is  not  so  stated,  I  think  that  we  may  assume  that  these  note 
were  taken  in  wliat  is  known  as  short  liand.  Omnin  pi-iiKutninilur  ritr  i'»si'  tirlii  is-  a 
.maxim  aj)plicalile  as  well  in  criminal  as  in  civil  matters,  and  if  we  cannot  make  such  au 
assumption  we  must  assume  them  to  have  been  in  the  ordinary  form  of  \vritin<;,  or  at 
least  in  such  form  of  writing  as  would  satisfy"  tlie  statute.  The  statutory  proxlsion  is, 
that  "full  notes''  are  to  he  taken  "in  writinj;."  The  very  definitions  of  the  words- 
■  "writing,"  and  "  to  write,"  are  sufficient  to  show  tliat  tiie  metliods  of  recording  language 
covered  by  the  word  "stenography,"  come  within  the  terii^  "writing."  The  very  deriva- 
tion 6i  the' word  "  stenography  "  shows  it  to  mean  a  mode  or  modes  of  writing.  "  Steno- 
graphy" is  a  generic  term  >vhich  eml)races  every  system  of  shorthand,  whether  basetJ" 
Ujxjii  alphabeti(^  phonetic,  or  hieroglyphic  principles.  There  are  advantages  aiid  these 
advantages  both  in  steiiograjjhy  and  in  ordinary  wilting  for  the  purpose  of  reporting  tHe 
,  evidence  given  orally  in  a  court  of  justice.  The  magistrate  is  not  obliged  to  take  the 
notes  himself;  he  is  authorized  by  the  statu^  to  cau.se  it  to  be  done  by  another  or  othep*. 
It  has  not  been  the  practice  .so  far  as  I  kni<w,  in  any  court  in  Canada  to  take  down 
rej-hatiiii  (juestion  and  answer  in  ordinary  writing,  and  that  could  not  be  presumed  to  be 
required.  If  it  is  not,  but  the  notes  are  taken  in  narrative  form,  their  aicuiiiey  depends 
'largely  on  the  ability  of  the  rej>orter  hurriedly  to  apprehend  the  eliect  of  (piestiou  and 
answer  and  throw  tlieni  together  so  as  properly  to  .set  down' the  idea  of  the  witniss.  Any 
system  by  which  (juestion  and  answer  are  given  n, hi  (fun  is  certainly  more  likely  to  be 
accurate  than  this  method,  notwitb.standing  the  chances  of  erroi-  .suggested  by  Mr-.  Ewart. 
The  short  hand  system  of  the-»;eporter  may  be  .something  wliirli  himself  alime  can  under- 
stand, it  maybe  a  .system  which  is  known  to  many,  and  it  may  be  that  his  notes  can  be 
r«^d  by  many.  I  think  that  we  are  not  entitled  to  a.ssuiiie,  for  tlie  pur]«>se  of  holding 
the  conviction  illegal,  that'  in  the  present  instance  it  w:as  a  system  understo.id  by  th.- 
j'eporter.alone,.even  if  that  assum|ition  should  ])ri)perly  leail  to  that  conclusion. 
^  The  use  of  short  hand  reporteis  in  the  loiirts  had  been  in  vogue  fOr'  a  consider.il >le 
time  in  .more  than  one  ot  tile  Pr<ninces  when  the  North-We.st  Territorie,s  .-Xct  of  18S0 
was  pa.s.sed  ;  aiid  when  Parliament  provided  only  for  tlie  taking  of  the  notes  '•  in  writing," 
witiiout  any  further  limitation  of  such  a  general  woid,  it  niay  be  well  under-^timd  to  ii.ive 
had  in  view  a  cla.ss  or  method  of  writing  which  was  in  such  general  use.  1  have  felt  the 
more  satisfied  in  cfuning  to  this  conclusion,  as  it  has  not  been  suggested  that  the 
prisoner  has  been  put  under  any  disadvailtagi-  by  the  system  adopted  tor  reporting  the 
evidence'  and  proceeding.s,  or  that  tlie  report  of  the  evidence  or  jmn-eediugs  i.s  in  any 
resjject  inaccurate.  {  ' 

The  ituestion  of  in.sanity  is  raised  upon  tliis  appeal  as  a  ((uestion  of  fact  only.      No 
objectioij  has  been  made  to  the  charge  of  thejiiagistrate  to  the  jury.      The  principles  laid' 
down  by  the  courts  of  L'pper  Canada,  uncler  the   Act  wJiich  authorized  the  granting  ot" 
new  trials  in  criminal  esises,  and   vi'kiiJiJiave  been  refern^r  to  by  my  brother  Taylor, 
a,j)pear  to  me  to  be  tlio.s6  which  sjhould  govern  this  court   in  hearing  and  determining 
appeals  from  convictions- in  the  Korth- West  Territories  upon  (juestions  of  fitt,  except 
that  it  is  hardly  accurate  to  say  that  the  court  will  not  undertake  to  determine  on   wha 
side  is  the  weight  of  evidence,   bilt  oidy  if  there  is  evidence  to.  go  tr)  the   jury.      TL      , 
hardly  applies  in  a  case  like  the  ptesent.      The  presumption  of  law   is  that  the  prisoi.'r' 
is,  and  was,  sane.      The  burden  o^  jiroof  of  insanity  is  upon  the  defence.      Afr Xayhten' g 
case,  10  CI.  At  Fin.  -'04  ;  Jiei/iiia  m  Slukm,  .'!  C.  A.'  K.  lf<5  yjffi/iiia  v.  Liiijlim,  4  Cbx  C.  C. 
149.     Without  evidence  to  go  th  the  jury,  the  prisoner  caiuiot  be  acfputted  upon  the 
plea  of  insanity.      If  there  is  in  such  a  case  to  be  any  appeal  after  a  conviction,  it  nuist 
be  on  the  ground  that  the  evidence  is  so  Overwhelming  in  favDr  of  the  insanity  of  tlie  i 
prisoner  that  the  court  will  feel  that  there  has  been  a  miscarriage  of  justice — that  a  poor,  j 
deluded,  irresponsible  being  lias  been  adjudged  guilty 'of  tlial  of  which  he  cOuld  not  be 
guilty  if  he  were  deprived  of  the' power  to  reason  upoii  the  act  complained  ui,  to  deter- 
mine by  reason  if  it  was  right  or  wrong.  -  / 
Certainly,  a  new  trial  should  not  be  granted  if  the  evidence  were  sucli  that  the  jurj 


'.<»-■*  197 

'  \  ■' 

juld  reasonal)ly  convict  '^r  acijuit.  Mr.  Leiiiieux  laid  fjreat  stress  upon  the  fact  th»t 
|-he  Jury  accoiiipaiiied  their  verdict  witli  a  recoinniendation  to  mercy,  as  showing  that 
tliey  thouglit  the  prisoner  insane.  I  cannot  set^  tliat  any  ihiportance  can  lie  attached  to 
•this.  I  have  read  very  carefully  the  report  of  the  charge  of  the  niajjistrate,  and  iC 
appears  to  have  lieen  so  clearly  put  that  the  jury  could  have  no  doubt  of  their  duty  ill 
ca.se  they  thouglit  the  jirisoner  in.sa^e  when  he  committed  the  acts  in  ([uestion.  They 
•could  not  have  listened  to  iliat  cliarge  without  understanding  fully  that  to  bring  in  a 
verdict  of  guilty  was  to  declare  emphatically  their  dislielief  in  the  insanity  of  the 
j>risoner.     The  recomiiiendation  may  be  accounted  for   in   nianV  ways  not  connected  at 

all  with  the  (piestion  of  th<i  sanity  of  the  prisoner.  .  n 

The  stipendiary  magistrate  adopts,  in  his  charge  to  the  Jury,  the  test  laid  down  in  r\ 
MiirXiiiihteit's  case,  10  CI.  it  F.  1'04.  Although  this  rule  was  laid  down  by  the  leading 
judges  of  England,  at  tlie  time,  to  the  House  of  I'^ords,  it  was  not  so  done  in  am-  jiarti- 
cular  case  whicli  was  before  that  tribunal  for  adjudication,  and  it  could  hardly  be 
cdusidered  as  a  decision  alisolutely  binding  upon  any  courl.  I  should  consider  this 
court  fully  Justified  in  departing  from  it,  if  good  ground  wf*re  shown  therefor,  or,  if,  even 
without  argument  of  counViel  against  it,  it  appeared  to  the  court  itself  to  be  iuipropefas 
applied  to  the  fa<4^_>rt  a  particular  case.  In  the  present  instance,  counsel  for  the  pri- 
soner do  not  attempt  to  impugn  the  prfipriety  of  the  rule,  and  in  my  ojiinion  they  could 
not  .successfully  do  so.  It  hiis  never,  .so  far  as  I  can  find,  been  overruled,  though  it  may 
to  some  e.vteijt  have  been  (picitionc-d.  This  rule  is,  that  "notwithstanding  the  party  did 
th(^  act  comptiiined  of  with  a  view,  under  the  influence  of  insane  delusion,  ofivdressing 
or  rtivenging  ^omi;  sup)io.sed  grievance  o.r  injury,  or  of  producing  some  public  benefit,  he 
is  nevertheless  ]nniisliable  according  to  tlie  nature  of  the  crime  connnitted,  it  he  knew  at 
the  time  of  Jionimittinj^  such  crime  that  \u\  acted  contrary  to_  law.' 

Mr.  Justice  Maule,  on  the  same  occasion,  puts  it  tJius  :  "  To  render  a  )iersou  irres- 
ponsilile  for  crime  on  account  of  unsoundness  of  mind,  the  unsoundness  should,  according 
tf>  thf  law  as  it  has  long  been  understood  and  held,  lie  such  ai»  renderetl  hiin  incapable 
of  knowing  right  from  wrong." 

^^^riie  argument  for  the  insanity  of  the  prisoner  is  based  to  a  certain  extent  on  the 
mm  that  he  was  in  such  a  stat^  of  mind  that  he  did  not  know  that  the  acts  he  was  com- 
mitting were-jwrong  :  that,  lie  fancied  himself  inspired  of  Hea\en,  and  acting  under  the 
dirtction  of  Heaven,  and  in  a  holy  cause.  It  would  be  exceedingly  dangerous  to  admit 
the  validity  of  such  an  argument  for  adjudging  an  accu.sed  person  insane,  partirnlarly 
wiutre  tlie  olli-nce  charged  is  of  such  a  naturq  as  that  of  which  this  prisoner  is  convicted. 
/  A  man  who  leads  an  armed  insurrection  does  so  from  a  desire  for  murder,  rajiine, 
\  n/tilici  V,  or  for  jiersoual  gain  or  advanta;;e  of  some  kind,  or  he  does  so  in  the  belief  that 
Jie  1+as    a    righteouscau.se,    grievances  which    he    is    entitled    to    take   up    arms 'to  have  i 

edrcssed.      In  the  latter  case,  if  sincere,  he  lielieves  it  to  be  rij.dit  to  do  so,  that  the  law 
'■  (Jo(!  permits,  mav,  even  calls  u]ion  him,  to  do  so,  and  to  adjudge  a  man  insane  on  that 
round,  would  Ik-  to  open  the  door  to  an  acipiittal  in  every  case  ni  which  a  nuui  with  an 
HiUf.stJ^elief  in  his  wi-ongs,  and  that  they  w  ere  suthciently  grievous  t*)  wairant  any  msans 
t  secure  their  redress,  should   take  U]p  arms  against  the  cou.-ititiui-d  authoiities  of  the. 
iid.     His  action  was  exceedingly  rash  and  foolhardy,  but   he   reiisoned   that  he  could 
vyievda  sutHcient  success  to  extort  something  from   the  (iovernment,  whether  for  hiiu- 
*''■'  or  sis  foUower.s.     His  actions  were  ba.sed  on  i-easofi  and  not  on  insanedelusion. 
'^'•\  It  IS  true  that  there  were  some  medical  opinions  that  the  iirisoner  was  in.sane,  ba.sed 
""i  sni  account  of  his  actions  and   his  previous  history,  Imt  the  Jury  were  not  bound  to 
■(t  sutji  opinions.      The  Jury  had   to   listen   to   the  grounds  for  these  opinioii.s,  and  to 
form    their    own   Judgment  'u]>on  them.     In  my  opinion,  the  evideiK-e  was  such  that  the 
Jury  wetrUl  iu>t  ha\e  been  Justified   in  any  verdict  than  that  which  they  gave  ;.  but  even  f 

if  it  be  arlmitted   that  they  might  reasonably  harve   found  in  favor  of  the  insanity  of  the        /' 
Jirisoner,  it  cannot  be  said  that  they  could  not  reasonably  tind  him  sane. 

I  hesitate  to  add  anytliing  to  the  remarks  of  my  brother  Taylor  upon  the  evidence 
•on  the  question  of  insanity.  I  have  read  over  very  carefully  all  the  evidence  that  was 
laid  be^re  the  jury,  and  I  could  say  nothing  that  would  more  fully  express  the  opiiiisns 


r 


198 


vil. 


1  havie  formed   frt<ni   its  perusal  than  wliat.  is  expressed  liy  him. ,    I  ajirce  witli  liim  txU   ^^ 
in  sayiiijfjrhat  tliii»  prisoner  has  Iieen   ahly  and   zealously  defende(l,  an<l  that  nothing,'  tha  t,^ 
coufd  iiiisist  lii.s  oase  appears  toJiive  been    left   untouched.      If  I  eould  see  any  reason  ton, 
_  Wlieve  ^!iat    the   jury,  whetlier    from    passion    nr    prejuiliye,  or  otherwise,  had   dec-iiled'.c 
against  the  wei^'ht  of  tjie  evidence  u])on   tlie   prisoner's    insanily,  I    should  desire  t'o  find    n 
that  tlie  (,'ourt  lould    so  inter|)ret  the  statute  as  to  he   justilitMl  in  causinj,'  the  case  to  lio    u 
laid  hefore  another  jury  for  their  consideration,  as  the  only  feelinjis  we  can  have  towards     ; 
a  fellow  creatnWwho  has  lieen  deprived  of  the  reason  which  jilaces  us  iihove  the  hrutes, 
are  sincere  pity  and  ji  desire  to  have  some  atti'.mpt  made  to  restore  him  to  tljj'  full  enjoy- 
ment of  a  sound  mind.  e 

The  prisoner  is  evidently  a  nian  of  moiv  than  oi-diiiary  intelli;;ence,  who  could  have  i- 
heen  of  irreat  .service  to  those  of  his  race  in  this  country  :  anil  if  luvwere  insane,  the,  )- 
greatest  service  that  Could  he  rendered  fo  the  country  would  he,  that  he  should,  if  |>o.s-  (I 
sibJe,  lie  restored  to  that  condition  of  mind  which  would  enalile  him"  tf)  u.se  his  mental  e 
powers  and  jiis  education  to  a.ssist  in  ])romotiii;;  the  interests  of  that  ijiiportant  class  in  s 
the  eoinmunity  to, which  he  l>eion;.'s.  It  is  with  the  deepest  regret  that  I  reeogni/.e  that  t 
the  acts  charged  were  conniTitted  without  any  such  justitication,  and  that  this  Court  can- 
not in  any  way  he  jdstitied  in  interfi  ring. 

In  my  judgment,  the  conviction  must  he  confirmed. 


/ 


^ 


\j- 


v., 


Nc 
^  laid[ 
f,K  of 

Mor, 
.  Aining 

/  who-i 
Tl 

OS 

»risoj,.'r 
Uijhteitu 


C-- 


y 


n^   \ 


.  t  ■ 


TO!) 


APPEAL   TO   THE  PRIAY  COUNCIL. 


p.  V.  No.  1743. 


\ 


CERTIFIED   copy  of  a   report  of  a    Cowmittei'  of  the  }IoHon(fjlf   the    Privy  Counrily 
approred  by  //is  E.irelA-ncy  the  (lOi-ernof  General  in  Cvnncil,  <»i  the  2oth  Sept.  1885. 


ThsTViinniitteo  of  tlip  Privj' Council  have  had  uiidei-  consideration  a  petition  from 
Louis  Kiel,  now  undi-r  sentence  of  death  at  HeyjimCTK  the  Xorth-West  Territories  of 
Cauaihi,  tlirousrli  his  counsel,  Messrs.  Leiiiieux  aiuT~l»ltz|)atrick,  askin<;  that  sucli  steps 
may  he  acKipted  hy  tlie  ( lovernor  ( Jeneral  in  Council  as  will  allow  liim  the  necessary  time 
to  procure  an  appeal  to  the  Quomi's  Most  Excellent  Majesty  in  Council  from  the  sentence 
and  judj^nient  rendered  in  lii,s  case  at  Iie^'iuji. 

The  Minister  of  Justice  to  whom  the  iietiti<Mi  was  refi'rretl  tor  imnifdiate  action, 
reports  with  respect  to  the  application  for  delay  in  order  to  allow  the  prisoner  time  to 
appeal  to  the  Privy  Council,  that  the'  Majjistrate  has  ]iost]>oned  tjie  execution  until  tlie 
I6tlt  of  ( »ctolier,  and  he  reconiiiien(ls  that  ^  our  Excellency  he  moved- to  communicate 
with  the  Hi^'ht  HonoraMe  the  Principal  >iecretary  of  State#>rthe  Colonies  with  a  view,  if 
possihle,  to  secure  an  early  meetin;^  of  the  Judicial  Committee  of  the  Privy  Council  in 
order  that  tlie  (luestion  as  to  whether  leave  to  appeal  in  this  matter  will  he  granted  or 
not.  shall  he  determined  at  the  earliest  possihle  time.  .,  , 

The  Committee  concur  in  the  ahove  reoomuien()ation  of  the- Minister  of  Justice,  a^ul 
they  suhmit  tlie  same  for  approval.      ■     , 

(Sigjied)  Joiiy  J.  Mc(!ke. 

/       -  <0  1  '  Cl-rk,  Prill/  Couneil. 


IX  THE  PRIVY  COUNCIL. 
'Ill  appeal  from  the  Court  of  Queen's  Hench  for  the  Pro\  ince  of  Manitoha, 


en 

o1. 


Dominion  of   ( 'aiiada. 
Loris   lilKL, 

(IhJ  , 
The  QiEEX, 


■Ap}iell(tnt. 


Regpotidetit. 


rd,  "-'ilth  and  I'-^tlrdays  of  July  la.st,  youi:  petitiouer 
efore'.i  stipendiary  mauistrate  aittl  a   justice  of  the 


,.„,;  Queen's  Most  Excellent  Majesty  in  Council. 

■'       '. 
en«lie  hiimhlejietition  of  Louis  Hiel  sheweth,  as  follows  : — 

^*i"'t.   On  the  L'Uth,  -Jlbt,  22nd,  L'.Srd,  •_• 

havy.,!  f,„.  {],j,  crime  of  treason  l>efore*.i  stipendiary  maf^istrate  aittl  a  justi 

,  .vith  the  intervention  of  mi  jury  of  si.x  [lersons  in  the  North-West  Territories  of  the 

■  i>omiiiiou  of  Canada,  and  liavinj;  heeii  foun^l  f;uilty  has  Vieeu  sentenced  to  death. 

2nd.   ^  our  j>etitioner  caused  art  appeal  to  he  taken  to  tlie  court  of  Queen's  Bench 

for  the  Province  of  Manitoba,  and  that  cmirt  has  continued  the  sentence  aforesaid. 

3r(L    Your  petitioner  feels   aj^grieved    hy  the  proceediiuis   of   the  said  courts  for  the 

following,  aniong.st  other  rea.sons  :  , 

1st.   The, said   stipendiary   magistrate  and  justice  had  no  jurisdiction  to  try  Your 

■■  petitioner  for  tlie  crime'  aforesaid. 

2iid.  If  they  Jiad  jurisdiction  in  any  ciise  of  treason,  tliere  »'as  not  in  the  ca.se  of  your 


200  ^M 

.  '  '■■'* 

petitioner,  any    indictment   preferred   liy  any  grand  Jury  or   imjuisition   f<Jund    l(y  anj,. 

coroner  s'  inquest  aj^ainst  your  petitioner.  r  ►  i  > 

.  .    :5r<l.    All  iiiforniation  wii.s  laid  afjainst  your  petitioner,  but  even  if  a  niero  infornmtion  , 

was   sufficient,  that    in   tli<'  cuse   of    your  "p.-titidner  was   taken   before   the   stipendiary  | 

magistrate  ahnie  wlio  liad  no  jurisdiction  at  all. 

4th.  Tiie  evidence  at  the  triiil  was  not  taken  down  by  tlie  stipendiary  majristrate, 
and  by  hini.causeil.to  \ie  taken  <lown  in  writinjL,',  as  directed  by  the  Statute  in  tiiat  behalf. 
1  I'ith.    t'|>on  the  aj)peal  to    tlie  Court   of  (^uei'n'.s  Jleiuli,  your  j»<-titioner  was  iiotjier- 

mitted  to  be  present  noi-  wen-  any  of  the  papers  or  the  record  ]iro])erly  before  the  Court. 

•itli.  The  trial  <if  your  petitioner  and  the  ciifunistances'  out  of  wliich  it  aro.se  ar<^ 
deemed  Iiy  the  people'  of  Canada  to  be  iii.itters  of  no  ordinary  tni|)orlance,  have  diviiled 
the  jiopujation  into  two  opposinj;  partiis,  and  it  is Cs^ential  not '.only  upon  these  ^'rounds, 
but  also  from  the  fact  that  a  lar/e  numlier  of  trials  arisin^f  out  of  the,  sann'  cin-unistanceS  , 
are  l)ein<^  had  liefore  the  same 'functionaries  'that  the,  (jjiestion  rai.sed  by  this  [letitiou 
should  l>e  adjixlicated  and  settled.  .  [  • 

'    _  The  petitioner  must  therefore  Jiray  :  '_    .  . 

1st.  -That  Your  .Majesty  will  be  j^raciously  jileased  to  order  thiiV  your  p^Titioner  nuiy  - 
'have  si)ecial  leave  to  ap))eal  and  be  at  lilierty  to'  enter  and_  pi-osecute  lim  appiNil  from  the 
afore  .said  sentence,  add  judunient  res]>ectively,  and  that  the  said  stipendiary'  mai,'istrate 
and  justice  may  be'ordeie<l  to  transmit  forthwith  tin-  transcri]>t  of  the  pi'oci'edin;,'s  and 
evidence  in  the  matter  to  tlie  IVi,\  y  Council  oliic^'.  or  that  Your  .Majesty  may  be  jfiaciously 
pleased  to  make  such  further  or  otln 
just  and  projicr  , 

And  your  petitioner  will  ex er])i 

(Sijined) 


■r  order  as  to  \  oiir   .Mjv^csty  in  Council  may  appear 
av.  A'c. 


F.   \      I.KMIKIX, 

Ciis.  FiT/i'.\Ti<irK 


t^uebec,  Sejitember  1  llh,   ISN.'!. 
True  copy. 

*    Ciis.  Fir/l'.^TRK  k; 


Nrt.  2i:$. 


(COPY') 

■  C.VNAIH. 

coi.oNhx  s'lANLKV  TO  TiiK  i>i;i'i:tv-(;ovi;knoi(. 

Dowi^in;;  Strei-t. 


rtikni;;  ^trei-t.  Ic. 

\  •Jltli  «)ctober,  J<r 

SiH,.  -With  reference  to  luy  tele^jr.im  ot  the  •Jl'nd  in.stant,  1  have  the  Iromir  for' 
niit  t/)  you  the  aci-ompaii_tinn  copies  of  the  jiidjiiueiit  of  the  Liirds  of  the  judicinl  crP'"i. 
tee  of  the  Pri\y  Council,  on  tl.ie  jietition  for  lea've  to  appeal  of  F..ouis  Kiel.  f'K 


I  have,  Ac. 


Tlie  Deputy-tlovernor. 


(Signed,)  l{oiii;HT  .U.[  W.    IlicKnJ)  "*' 

/'ill-  ill''  Sirrrliiri/  lil  ir 

i  j'  .;  .  .  "    ■       :     ■     (ei'i'') 


Judgment  .ijfj^e  Lords  of  the  Judicial  coininittee.  of  the  Privy   Council   on   >.. 
ti  ni  of  Louis  Kiel,  from  the  Court  of  Queen's  Iteirch  for  the  Pro\ince  of  .Manitoba. 

Prksknt  :  V  . 

Tlie   Lonl   Cliancellor.  '       - 

1  .'J      Lord  Fitzgerald;  «r    . 

/•  Lord  MonkswelU 

~  Lord  Hobhou.se. 

j  I.iord  Esher.  -        . 

Sir  Karnes  Peafotrk. 


|i 


.     '    '  '^^^      ]      '     ■    '        . 

TKis"is  a  petition  of  Louis  Riel,  tried  in  July  last  at  Regina,  in  the  North- West 
Territories  of  Canada,  and  convicted  of  liigh  treason,  and  sentencefl  to  death,  for  leave 
to  ai>peal  against  an  order  of  the  Queen's  Bench  of  Manitoba,  continning  that  conviction. 

Jt  is  the  usual  rule  of  this  committee  not  to  grant  leave  to  appeal  in  criminal  case's, 
except  where  some  dear,  de])arture  from  the  re(|uirements  of  justice  is  alleged  to  have 
taken  place.  Whether  in  this  case  the  prerogatives  to  grant  an  appeal  still  exists,  as 
their  Lordsliips  have  not  heard  that  (piestion  argued,  they  desire  neithertn  affirm  nor  to" 
deny,  hut  they  are  clearly  of  opinion  that  in  this  case  leave  should  not  he  given. 

The  j)etitic>ner  was  tried  under  the  provisions  of  an  Act  passed  by  the  Canadian  Legis- 
lature, providing  for  tlie  administration  of  criminal  justice  for  those  ]K>rtions  of  the  North- 
West  Territory  of  Canada,  in  which  the  offence  charged  against  the  petitioner  is  alleged 
to  have  heen  connnitted.  No  (piestions  has  been  raised  that  the  facts  as  alleged  were  not 
jiroved  to  have  taken  place,  nor  was  it  denied  Ix^fore  the  original  tribunal,  or  before  the 
Court  of  Appeal  in  Manitoba,  that  the  acts  attributed  to  the  jjetitioner  amounted  to  the 
crime  of  high  trea.son. 

The  defence  upon  the  facts  sought  to  be  established  before  the  jury  was,  that  the 
petitioner  was  not  re.sponsil)le  for  his  acts  l>y  reason  of  mental  infirmity.  , 

The  jury  before  whom  the  petitioner  was  tried  negatived  that  defence,  and  no  argu- 
menli  has  been  ]iresented  to  their  Lordships  directed  to  show  that  that  finding  <vas  other- 
wise Timn)correct.  (tf  the  objections  raised  on  the  face  of  the  petition  two  pkdnts  only 
seem  tcilie  capable  fif  jilausible  or,  indeed,  intoliigible  ex]iressiiin,  aui^  they  have  been 
urged  before  their  Lordshi]vs  with  as  nmch  force  as  was  possible,  and' as  fully  and  con»- 
l)letely  in  their  Lfiidshi]i  s  ojiinion  as  it  would  have  been  if  lea\e  tciiappeal  had  lieen 
granted,  and  they  havt*  been  dealt  with  by  the  judgments  of  the  Court  of  Ap|)eal  in 
Manitoba  witli  a  patience,  learning  and  ability  that  leaves  very  little  to  \i(-  said  upon 
them. 

The  first  point  is  tliatphe  Act  itself  und<M'  which  the  petitioner  was  tried  was  u/lra 
>riri'H  the  Dominion  Parliament  to  enact.  That  Parliament  deri\ed  its  authority  for- the 
pa.ssing  of  that  Ktatute  from  the  Imperial  Statute,  ;>4  and  S-t  Vic.  Cliaji.  2S,  which 
enacted  that  the  Parliament  of  Canada  may  from  time  to  time  make  provision  for  the 
administration,  peace,  order,  and  good  government  of  any  territory  not  for  the  time 
being  included  in  any  jirovince. 

It  is  not  denied  that  the  place  in  nuestiou  was  one  in  respect  of  which  the  Parlia- 
ment of  Canada  was  autliorizeil  to  make  such   pi-ov  ision,  but  it  appears  to  be  suggestecU, 
that  an\\ provision  ditti'i'riiig  from  the  provisions  which  in  this  country  have  been  yuide 
for  admini  .;.  jieai-e,    order  and   good   govermnent   cannot,   as  matters  of  law,   be 

provisions  for  peace,  order  and  ^ood  government  in  tlieterritDries  to  which  the  Statute 
relates,  and  further  that,  if  a  Court  of  law  .should  come  to  the  conclusion  that  a  particular 
enactment,  was  not  calculated  as  matter  of  fact  and  jiolicv  to  secure  ]t«ace,  order,  and 
good  government,  that  they  would  lie  entitlitl  to  regard  any  Statute  directed,  to  those 
objects,  but  which  a  Court  should  think  likely  to  fail  of  that  eSeCt,  as  it/tr<i  ci'/Vjf  and 
Iwyond  the  competency  of  the  Dominion  Parliament  to  enact. 

Their  Lordships  are  of  opinion  tliat  there  is  not  4che  least  colour  for  such  a 
contention.  The  words  of  the  Statute  are  apt  to  authorize  the  utmost  discretion  of 
enactment  for  the  attainment  of  tlie  objects  pointed  to.  Theyare  words  under  which  the 
widest  de,'partifre  from  Criminal  proceduiv  as  it  is  known  and  practised  in.  this  country 
have  been  authorized  in  Her  Majesty's  Indian  Empire./ 

ForiiT^  of  procedure  unknown  to  the  Knglish  common  laws  ha\e. there  been  esta- 
blished and  acted  upon,  and  to  throw  the  least  doubt  ujion  the  validity  of  powers  con- 
\eyed  by  those  words  would  be  of  widely  mischievous  conseijuence.  .         , 

There  was  indeed  a  contention  upon  the  construction  of  the  Canadian  Statute,  43 
Vict.,  Chaj).  2rt,  that  high  treason  was  not  included  in  the  words  :  '•  any  other  crimes," 
liut  it  is  too  tlear  for  argument,  even  without  the  assistance  aH'orded  by  the  10th  sub- 
section, that  tMe  Dominion  Legislature  contemplated  high  treason  as  •  comprehended 
within  the  language  employed.  ^        " 

Tlie  second  point  suggested  assumes  the  validity  of  the  Act,  but  is  founded  upon  the 


,  ^ 


\y. 


202     N 


\ 


assumption  that  the  Act  lias,  not  been  complied  with.  By  the  7th  sub-section  of  the  7(ith 
section  it  is  pro vi'ded.  that  tlie  magistrate  sliall  take  or  cause  to  be  taken  in  writin<;  full 
notes  of  evidence  and  other  proceedin;^  thereat,  and  it  is  sugj^ested  that  tliis  provision 
has  not  beei/cojn plied  witli,  Iwcause  tliough  no  complaint  is  made  of  inaccuracy  or  mis- 
take, it  is  said  that  the  notes  were  taken  by  a  shorthand  writer  under  the  authority  of 
the  magistrate,  aii(l  by  a  subse(juent  process  extended  into  , ordinary  writing  intelligible. 
to  all.  Their  Lordships  desire  to"  express  no  opinion  what  would  have  been  the  effect  if 
the  provision  of  the  statute  had  not  been  complied  with,  liecause  it' is  unneces.sary  topon- 
sider  whether  the  provision  is  directory  only,  or  whether  the  failure  to  comply  witn  it 

-  ,    would  be  grftund  for  error,  inasmuch  as  they  are  of  opinion  that  the  taking  full  notes  of 
;i  jthe  evidence' in  shorthand  was  a  causing  to  lie  taken  in  writing  full  notes  of  the  evidence, 

'.  '  ,  and  a  literal  compliance  therefore' with  the  Statute. 

Their  Lordship's  will,  therefore,  humbly  advise  Her  Majesty  tliat  leave  should   not 
be  granted  to  jirosecute  this  appeal. 


nil. 

'*'•  as 
'ia,,t 

tO<i 

'J, 
\ 


\ 


/■-* 


\ 


■\ 


■4 


i 


Ofig. 


PETITION   FOR   A   MEDICAL   CUALMI88IOX. 

^  P.  C.  2020.  '  ,  -  '       ■  "      -     . 

[Trarislatioti^.  ,  ^  ■ 

TO  HIS  EXCELLENCY  :  .      ' 

The    HUillT    ItONORADLE    IlENRV    CHARLES    KEITII     PETTY-FITZMAURIC'E,    MARQCIS    OP 
LAXSOOWXK,  IJOVEnNOU-CKXEHAL  OF  THE  DOMINION'  OF  CANADA,  iVC,  itC,  itc. 

The  Pititioii  of  V.  X.  Liiuicux.  iidvorate,  of  the  i-ity  of  Quclicc,  ' 

I   '  »  Huinlily  ifjireseiots : 

That  lie  liiis  acted  as  one  of  tlie  Counsel  of  LouLs  Kiel,  accused  and  convicted  of  the 
crime  of  hi<;li  treason,  at  Roj,'ina,  duiini^  the  course  of  tiie  month  of  Au^'iist  last  ; 

That  at  the  time  (if  the  trial  of  Louis  Kiel  it  was  established  tliat  tlie  latter  had 
already  heen  confined  for  insanity  in  certain  lunatic  asylums  viz  ;  in  ln74  in  the 
Lonijue-Pointe  asylum,  at  Montreal  in  l.S7t>,  at  the  Heaujtott  asylum,  QuehcA!  in.  1{<79, 
in  a  lunatic  asylum  at  Washin<{ton,  Tnited  iStates. 

That  credilile  witnesses,  amongst  whom  Revd.  Fathers  Andre  -and  Fourinond  and 
Hon.  t^irles  Xolin,  and  others,  have  proved,  at  the  trial,  that  Louis  Riel,  had  before, 
during  and  after  the  rising  in  the  Xortli-West,  to  tiieir  own  knowledge,  <;iven  sure  and 
positive  evidence  of  insanity  hy  his  deeds,  words  and  ;^enerfcl  lieliaviour  and  that  they 
truly  heleived  that  Rlel  was  not  responsible  for  Ins  actions  durinj;  the  time  already 
.  mentioned.  '  ' 

-,.  That  this  evidence  of  the  insanitj'  of  Riel  has  been  corroborated  and  .strenj^thened 
by  the  testimony  of  two 'lunacy  physicians,  Messre  Roy  of  Quebec  and  Clarke  of 
Toronto. 

,  That  Dr  Roy  has,  moreover  declared  that  Riel  had  been  under  his  immediate  care 
durinj;  the  eifjhteen  months  for  which  he  had  been  confined  at  JSeauport  and  that  Riel 
was  then  suHering  from  a  mental  disorder,  or  andiitions  Monomania  called  ilej^alomania; 
that  from  Louis  Kiel's  antecedent.s,thc  evidence  made  of  insane  actions  and  the  examination 
of  the  accused  at  the  time  of  liis  trial,  Dr  Roy  lias  sworn  that  he  verily  believed  that 
Kiel  was  insane  and  incapable  of  discernini^  right  from  wrong. 

That  Dr  Clarke  has  declared  under  oath  that  for  the  same  reasons  as  those  used  by 
Dr  Koy,  lie  was  of  opinion  that  Jtiel  was  a  monomaniac  and  that  he  was  suHering  from 
, a  mental  disorder  which  rent'  red  him  incapable  of  discerning  right  from  wrong,  Imt 
that,  inasmuch,  as  he  had  never  seen  Riel  before  the  time  of  the  trial,  it  would  have  been 
iiecessary  for  him  to  examine  tlie-jiatient  during  perhaps  a  couple  of  months,  in  order  to 
enable  liim  to  make  an  exact  report  as  to  his  mental  condition. 

That  this  insanity  has  been  .so  much  proved  that  the  jury  have  been  impres.sed  by 
proof  which  has  been  made  of  it,,  to  such  an  extent  that  they  recomniauded  Riel  to  the" 
clemency  of  the  Court.  ^        ! 

That  year  jietitiort  has  been  informed  in  a  credible  manner,  that  since  the  verdict 
has  been  given,  the  in.sjinity  and  mania  of  Riel  have  eonsidrably  increased,  and  that  he 
is  actually  in.sane  and  incontrollable. 

Your  petitioner,  therefore  humbly  ]>rays  that  Your  Excellency  be  pleased  to  appoint 

a  medical   commission    composed    of   specialists   and   alieiiist.s,  wlio.se  duty  it   will  be  to, 

examine  the  said  Louis  Riel,  actually  detained  in  Kegina,  in  the  mounted  police  niilitary 

,  camp,  and  to  asl-ertain  th*  state  of  mind   and   mental  condition  of  jthe  said  Louis  Ki;?l 

'and  to  report  to  the  authorities  ac^cordingly.    '. 

And  your  petitioner  will  ev«r  pray.  •       ' 

(Signed,)  ♦    F.  X.  Lemiei.v, 


r 


Attorney J'or  Lnui*  llie[. 


*iy- 


[^Transltitionj.  l'^ 

I,  Fraxi;ois  RWr-physician  and  surgeon,  co-proprietor  and  Superintendent  of  the  lunatic 
itsyluni  at  liesiuport,  of  the  city  of  Quebec,  solemnly  declare  : — 

That  all  the  facts  alleged  and  contained  in  the  above  petition  are' true. 
And  I  make  this  solemn  declaration  conscientiously   believing  the   same  to  l>e  true 
and  J)y  virtue  oitite  Act  passed  in  the  ^Uh  year  of  Her  Majesty's  Reign  intituled  "  An 
Act  for  the  suppression  of  voluntary  and  extrajudicial  oaths,  "  and   have  signed 

<^  (Signed)  F.  E.  Roy,  M.  D, 

jSworn  before  me  at  Quel>ee  this    ) 

24th  day  of  October  IHHf).         J        '  , 

(Signed)  Alexander  Ciiauveau,  J.  S,  P. 


1 


\T fnniilaUo}C\. 

Canada  ( 

Prowince  of  Queliec.  ) 


X.  .LkMIKI'X,  Petitioner  for  ;i  medical  c^nnijission  to  examine  into  the  uientjil  state  of 
Louis  Riel. 

FrAMOIS-X  AVI  f>J 

Le-jislative  As 


J  .     ^  ■  "     ■     *  ^ 

I,  FRA\<,ois-XAvif>4  Lkmik.i'x,  of  tlie  city  of  Quebec,  advocati',    and  a  member  of  the 

iiibly  of  the  Province,  of  Quebec  solemnly  declare  : 

That  I  was  engaged  as  attorney  and  advocate  for  Louis  Riel,  at  the  time  of  his  trial 
fdr  hiirli  tUMson  at  Regina  in  tjie  c()ur.s(?  of  the  months  of  July  and  August  last.'  That 
s/nce  the  time  that  the  verdict  of  guilty  was  brought  against  Louis  Kiel  and  the  sentence! 
f  death  ])ronounced  ii^aili^t  him,  1  have  had  sojne  corn's|iijudfMci-  with  dili'erent  person.s, 
wiio  since  tliat  time  li.ivc  liiiil  fre(|uent  relations  and  interviews  witli  Louis  Riel,  and  all 
the.se  jier.sons  have  di'cl.iied  to  your  j)etitioner  that  they  truly  l«li(^veil  that  Laijis  Kiel 
was  insane  and  tliat  his  insanity  had  cmisideraliiy  increased  siriri- the  time  of  tlie 
verdici.;  ,  ,  ,,^  • 

That  on  the  ."Ust  August  last,  ueirly  a  niimth  after  the  verdict,  the  R/VveroTIfl  Pere 
Andre,  >Supcrieur  des  ■<  )blats,  sent  mi-  a  letter  from  Regina,  in  \)liich  among  ntlierlliings 
lie  said  as  tollows ': 

,"  My  HEAR  3Ik."Lkmikux,         '        ( 

"  IJy  this  tinie.you  shoukl  b(^  in  Winnipi-g  and  in  this  hojje  I  se'nd  you  the.se  lines  to 
'•  .salute  you  and  to  wisli  yciu  success  in  your  praiseworthy  attenl]it  to  save  the  poor  and 
"  unfortunate  Riel.  .Since  your  departure  fi'om  Regina  I  have  visited  your  client  rttguhir- 
'•  Jy  every  day.  '  ' 

'•  The  ex|i!frience  I  have  gained  of  this  man  liy  continual  crtntact  with  him  has  only 
"  contirmed  me  mye  and  inoie  in  tlie  opiiiinn  ]  had  .iilready  foriiied  of  him,  that  he  is 
"  crazy  stnd  insii!li(/  (craipu;  et  toijUe,  <(  criink)  liotli  in  regard  to  n^iiglon  and  to  politics. 
'•  It  is  only  necessai y  to  liear  him  sjieak  of  his  visions  for  the  reform  of  the  world  in 
,"  regard  ti).ifl\''yfli  ,ts  well  as  jKjlitics,  to  be  ipjite  certain  of  this  unhealthy  and  crazy 
'•  stjite  of  mini|(r  ,         ■ 

"  I  have  ju>tj)een  visiting  him,  and  during  an  holir  he  spoke  of  extraordinary  reve- 
lations Inide  to  hiiijF)3?~'tlie  spirit  the  previous  niglit,  and  that  he  has  been  ordered  to 
communicate  tome  and  to  all  the  Catholic  clergy  :  "Tlie  great  cause  of  sin  in  the  world 
""is  tlie  revolt  of  the  body  against  the  spirit,  it  Is  because  we  do  not  chew  our  food 
"  enough,  and  by  this  want  of  mastication  it  communicates  animal  life  only  to  the  body 
"  -Otrhile  by  masticating  and  chewing  it  well,  it  spiritualizes  the  body." 

'•  He  had  been  searching  for  this  secret  since  fifteen  years  and  it  had  been  comiuu- 
nicated  to.  him  but  the  previous  night,  ana  he  was  in  a  state  of  great  joy  for  having  dis- 
covered this  means  which  will  prove  to  be  a  powerful  agent  to  coiTimunicate  spiritual 
life  in  bodies  gradually  leaving  this  world  to  rise  to  heaven. 


I: 


;ii 


-f' 


J 


205  i 


While  he  was  speaking  he  !>»u^c^\  .^j^  stoj'''*'^*'"'^  ™®  '"^  hand  :  "  Do  you  see,  says. 
he,  l)lood  flowing  in  the  veins  ;  tlie  tekgrivfi.i  is  operating  actively,  and  I  feel  jt,  they  are 
talking  about  nie,  and  questioning  authorities,  in  Ottawa,  about  uie." 

It  is  of  siniiliir  fantastic  visions  he  speaks  with  mp  every  day'.  I  am  convinced 
that -he  is  not  acting^a  part,  he  speaks  with  a  conviction  and  a  sincerity  which  leave  no 
doubt  in  my  mind  about  the  state  of. his  mind,  he  has  retracted  his  errors  but  he  believes 
himself  to  day  to  be  a  prophet  and  irivested  with  a  divine  mission  to  reform  the  world 
on  the  day  he  has  spoken  to  the  Court  and  when  I  reprove  1  i  n  for  his  foolish  and  extra- 
vagant ideas,  he  answers  that  he  submits,  but  that  he  cannot  stifle  the'voice  that  speaks  \ 
in  him  and  the  spirit  that  commands  him   to  communicate  to  the  world  the  revelations 

.*he  receives.  One  must  have  the  ferocious  hatred,  of  a  fanatic  or  the  stuj)idity  of  an  idiot, 
to  say  that  Riel  is  not  a  fool,  becaii.se  he  is  intelligent  in  other  matters,  as  if  history  was 
not  tilled  with  such  anomalies  among  certain  men  who,  remarkable  in  certain  subjects, 
have  lost  the  balance  which  contains  intellij^ence  within  the  limits  from  which  it  cannot 
escape  without  losing  its  ju-ivilege  of  j?uiding  us  or  niafcin-;  hs  responsible  for  our  own 
acts.  ,-  .  ) 

'  Riel  is  truly  a  phenomenon  woith  studying.  He  is  undm'-niany  aspectji  remarkable. 
One  must  know  )iim  and  above  all  study  him  clo.sely  to  fl'nd  out  tliat  he  is  a  prev  to  an 
invincible  delusion,  which  de]>rivfs  of  that  faculty  wliii-li  is  called  cinmiHiH  m-nsn  and  which 
is  the  eriteiion  which  Ood  has  given  us  to  enable  us  to  judge  of  the  goodne.ss  or  of  the 
malice  of  our  owi^act's.  Hie!  has  certainly  not  the  cfmniion  sense  which  can  .shew  him  the 

■bearings  of  his  actions  and  spe'ciaUy  sii"wlit'n  rclis^itiH  and  politics  are  concerned.  These 
are  the  |)rinci)iles  which  <;iiidc  me  in  my  treatment  of  him  since  he  is  in  gaol.  Althou<,'h 
his  opinions  upon  religion  are  greatly  ernuieous,  I  do  not  hold  him  responsible  and  do 
admit  him  to  receive  sacraments.     And  for  all  that,  he  often  renews  tlit^eriors  which  he 

,  has  retracted  and  which  he  again  retracts  when  I  ]ioint  out  to  him  his  heresies  as  contrary 
to  the  dogmas  taught  by  the  Hiily-Catholic  Church. 

"  On  the  day  following  such  retractation,  he  talks  to  nie  more  ardently  than  ever 

'"  about  his  revelations  and  his  counniinicatiou  with  somt*^  angel  who  honors  him  with  a 
"  nocturnal  visit." 


k 


I  have  gone  to  Regina,  about. the  eight  of  September  last,  for  the  only  purjwsp  of 
seeing  Riel,  who  on  numy  occ^^sions,  by  letteis  and  telegrams  had  bejfged  that  I  should 
go  and  see  him,  as  he  had  very  important  matters  to  communicate  to  me,  he  said.  Ihave 
had  many  interviews  witlr  him,  during  which  he  did  not  .say  one  word  about  his  .case 
which  had  been  taken  i,n  appeiil  before  the  Cqurt  of  Queen's  Bench,  in  Manitoba,  Ifht  he 
spoke  to  me  of  his  mi.ssion,  of  his  projihecies,  of  his  vision.s,  and  hea\  enly  connuuniclitions 
and  of  the  other  subjects  mentioned  in  the  foregoing  extracts  of  the  letter  from  Father 
Andre  * 

And  during  the  long  con\ersations  which  I  had  with  him,  I  hardly  could  obtain  a 
few  words  which  had  even  a  dim  light  of  common  .sense. 

I  had  seen  Louis  Riel  during  aliout  a  month,  at  the  time  fif  his  trial  and  I  .solemnly 
declare  it,  at  the  time  when  I  saw  him  last  (S  septendier  ultimo)  his  mental  condition 
was  greatly  altered  and  his  mind  had  considerably  weakened  and) I  truly  believe  that' at' 
the  date  of  the  Mth  September  anil  up  to  now,  Louis  Riel  ^as  mad  and  incapible  of  .dis- 
cerning right  from  wrong.  , 

Such  is  also  the  opinion  of  persons  whom  I  have  met  at  Regina  and  who  have  seen 
Riel  since  his  trial.  .         ^  ' 

'  I  niake  this  solemn  declaration  conscientionsly  believing  the  ssiiue  to  be  true  and  by. 

virtue  of  the  Act  [laesed  in  tlie  ;!7th  year  of  Her  Majesty's  reij^n  intituled  "An  Act  for  the 
suppression  of  \oluntary  and  extrajudicial  oaths.".     And  I  have  signed. 

»  '  ^  .  ■-  (Signed)         V.  X.  Le.mieux. 

Acknowledged  before  nie  at  Quebec,  this  lilSth  day  of  October,  188.5. 

(Signed)         D.  Murray,  J.  P. 


N 


/ 


206 
LIST   OF"   PET/t*   v^s 


VxViLW'  CASE. 


Namk  ok  Coi'NTV'  ML'xiiii'Ai.rrv,  &c. 


_  County  of  Viiuflreuil )  .  .  . 

;. Three  Rivers  airii   Nicolet 

St.  .  Jean  -  H:i|)tiste,    Cot^e    .St.    LoiiLs    et 

i  .Mite-Eii.l  ......  .  ..■ i.  .  .■ 

•   liachine   .: ; I 

Parish  of  Vareiiiies .-.. .  ;,.  .1 

Towiisliip  lit'  Cii^'eiice,  Co.  of  PrescOtt.  .  I 

Parisli  of  St.  L:iuri:ut. ,.    ^i  .  ...  I 

Coumv  of   Two  .Motiiitaiii.s'. 

City  of  St.  Hyaiiuilie  ......,• 

Hatiscaii,    St>  Pro.s|)^c,  Ste.  Geueviee .  . 
Parish  '>t'    I'oiiite  Claire.  ..:.......  .  .  .; 

Whit.-h.iii^x.  Y. ..: i.,.;, 

Koxton   anil  lloxtou  Falls.'. 

Pari.sli  of  St.  Narcisse  ..'...'........._. 

Yaina<-lnelie,  Shawent'jjitn  et  St.  Etienne 

Troi.s  Pistoles  •..:........, 

lierthier  (en  liaut)  .".  ..■..-.>.. . 

.  Mitniiolirt,  Pro\  ince  of.  .."■...•.......» 

!St.  Fi-aneois-Xa\  ier  .'.  ■.  ...  .  ;  .'  .  .  :  .^' .  .  . 

Isle  Hizaiil   ] .  .  .:"/.'.  ::  .  ■ 

.S.t.  Jeroiiie,  . ■......;: '.  .  .  . 

Three   llivers.  .' .'  .< 


H.  McMillan,  M,P. 
T.  E.  ^MetlioS 

\.  De.sjardina,  M.  P . 

Electors .  . 

F.  X.  P.rrault 

Electors' .  : .  . 


Munii'i])al  (.'oiincil . 
( 'itizens   , . 


Electors 


Citizens 


E.  (ierin .  .  . 
Electors. .  .  . 
Citizens. .  .  . 
Inhaliitants 
Citizens  .  .  . 
Kli'ctors  .  . 
Citizens  .  .  . 


Llslet  . 


.,St;  .iiNiJL.Port  Joli  ..:...... 

t^ueliec.  ...,-..,....; 

liinionski   

<'ilira;iM.'HI  : 

Fra.serville  (Riviere  <lu  Loup). 

St!    Francois   (.Montiiia<;ny)  .  .  . 

County  of  .Montniaj(ny. ...... 

JTotre-DaiiK"  il"  Mont  Carmel . 
■JrJt.  -San veur,  (jue. :  ,  .  .  . 

Kiuiouski   .  ■  ■ ., 

■  Ooatipook 

St.*  Paul.....-;.  . 

L'Islet 

'  County  of  ^Tissex,  Oat . 

Manitoba,  Provfnce  of .,  .  .  . 
Ht.   Etiennj» 

Hplyoke,    U.  S 

County  of  Maskinonge.  .... 
■County  of  L'A.s.souiption.  . . 
Cap  St.  lunace.  .  .......... 

(jaspe  aud'Rimouski  .  : 

lied  River,  Man '.  . 

.Minnesota,  U.H. .  .■ ?. 

St.  John,  P.  Q. 

Manitoba , i . .  .  . 


P.  15.  Casgrain,  >).P. 
Citizens 


:  Elect<irs. 
Citizens. 
Electors. 
Citizens. 
(Jouncil . 
(Jitizens. 


Electoi-s. .  . 


Citizens. . . .' 

Electors '.  .  .  . 

("itizens. ...,.._...;... 

Electors. . 

Council ..:.....; 

L.  Lafrainboise. ........ 

A.  L.  Desaulniers,  M-  P- 

Electors 

Citizens. 

Electors '....,.! 

Inhabitaii'ts ; .  . 

Residents 

Electors 


y: 


/^ 


/l' 


CASE.— {Contmued.J 


Iberville.  P.  Q. 

City  of  Ottawa-. ......' 

County  of  Morris,  Man.- 

Town  of  Snrel .'■.  . 

tJranville,  France , 

Slierbrooke 

Ste.  tJeneWeve ; 

<iu'AppeUe  River.  ............. 

Joliette ,..•.., 

Slierbrooke,  Conipton .  .  . , 

Sherbrooke 

Farnhiiin '...'... 

St.  Pierre »;  .  .■ 

(Vanbourne '.  ■ 

^'ountv  Montniiignv .-.) 


Electors 

French  Canadians . 

Electors 

Citizens 

Lucien  Dion 

Citizens^ 

Inhabiflmts.l.tlllt 
Half-Breetls 


^ 


i 


■  ::.  .  196 ;  4:       ■  '  "I. 

f  ^'    .•■•■•• 

It  appears  ))y  the  certificate  of  tlie  ma^istmte  that  the  only  full  iiotrs  of  t 
evidence  taken  at  the  tiial  were  taken  liy  " short-hafid  reporters"  appointed  l«y  the  ni 
gistrate.  Although  it  is  not  so  stated,j-I  think  that  we  may  assume  that  these  note 
were  taken  in  what  is  known  a.<)  short  liauj^  Oniultf  prdximntiilur  rilf  fxnr  iirla  is-  u 
.maxim  applicahle  as  well  in  criminal  as  in  civil  matters,  and  if  we  cannot  make  such  an 
assumption  we  must  assume  them  to  have  been  in  the  ordinary  form  of  writinj;,  or  at 
least  in  such  form  of  writing  as  would  satisfy"  the  statute.  The  statutory  i)ro\*ision  is, 
that  "full  notes"  are  to  he  tak<'n  "in  writing."  Tlie  very  detinilioiis  of  thi'  words 
•  "writing,"  and  "  to  write,"  are  sufficient  to  show  that  tlie  methods  of  recording  language 
covered  by  the  word  "stenography,"  con)e  within  the  term  "writing."  The  veYy  deriva- 
tion of  the"  word  "  stenography  "  shows  it  to  mean  a  motle  or  modes  of  writing.  "  Steno- 
graphy" is  a  generic  term  which  end)races  every  system  of  shorthand,  whether  bas^d 
,  upon  alphabeti<^  phonetic,  or  hieroglyphic  principles.  Tliere  are  advantages  and  these 
advantages  both  in  stenography  and  in  ordinary  wiiting  for  the  jiur[io.se  of  reporting  tlje 
.evidence  given  oi-ally  in  a  court  of  justice.  The  m:igistrate  is  not  obliged  to  take  the 
notes  himself;  he  is  authorized  l)y  the  statu~be^to  cause  it  to  be  doiie  Ijy  another  or  othe|j^. 
It  has  not  been  the  j)ractice  so  far  as  I  know,  in  any  court  in  Canada  to  take  down 
i-fi/iatiiii  ([uestion  and  answer  in  ordinary  writing,  and  that  could  not  be  presunieJ  to  be, 
re<|uired.  If  it  is  not,  but  tlie  notes  are  taki'n'iu  narrative  form,  tlicir  accural  y  depends 
'largely  on  the  ability  of  the  reporter  hurriedly  to  a|iiireheiid  the  etlect  of  (|Ue;stion  and 
answer  and  throw  them  together  .so  as  pi^jierly  to  set  down' the  idea  of  tlie  wilmss.  Any 
system  by  which  (luestion  ami  answer  are  given  nrlnitini  is  certainly  more  likely  to  In- 
accurate than  this  method.  notwith-Standing  the  chances  of  erroi'  hrtiiifested  liy  Mr.  Kwart. 
The  short  hiuid  system  of  the  reporter  may  be  something  wliich  himself  alone  can  inidei-- 
stand,  it  may  be  a  system  wliich  is  known  to  many,  and  it  may  be  that  his  notes  can  be 
read  by  many.  I  think  that  we  are  not  entitled  to  assume,  for  tlu-  purpose  of  holding 
the  conviction  illegal,  tliat  in  the  ja-esent  in.staiice  it  was  a  system  umli'istood  by  th.r 
reporter.alone,.even  if  that  assum|ition  should  jirojx-rly  lead  to  that  conclusion. 
'  The  use  of  short  hand  reporteis  in  tiie  courts  had  been   in  vogue  for'  a  considerable 

time  in, more  than  one  of  the  provinces  when  tht^  No|-th-\Vest  Territories  .\ct  of  IMtHO 
wds  passed  ;  and  vtlien  Parlia'nieiit  ])roviiled  oiily  for  tlie  taking  of  the  notes  "  in  writing," 
^without  any  further  limitation  of  such  a  general  word,  it  may  be  well  understood  to  li.ive 
had  in  view  a  class  or  method  of  writing  which  was  in  such  general  use.  1  have  felt  the 
more  satisfied  in  coming  to  tiiis  conclusion,  as  it  has  not  been  sugges^'d  that  the 
prisoner  has  been  ]iut  under  any  (lisa({vaiitaj;e  by  the  system  adopted  tV)r  reporting  the 
evidence'  and  proceedings,  or  that  the  reixirt  ^ut  the  evideiu-e  or  proceedings  i.s  in  any 
respect  inaccui-ate. 

The  ((u'estion  of  insanity  is  raised  upon  tliis  ajipeal  as  a  (|Uestion  of  fact  only.      Ni 
objection  has  been  made  to  the  charge  of  the  magistrate  to  the  juiy.      The  ]>rinciples  lai(* 
down  by  the  courts  of  l'[)per  Canada,  under  the    Act   which   authorized   the   j;iiiiiting  of 
new  trials"  in  criininal  cases,  and   wTvitJiJiave  been   referred  to  by   my  brother  Taylor, 
appear  to,  me  to  be  tho.se  which  sjhould  govern  this  court   in  hearing  jiiid  (leterniini|^4 
a))peals  from  convictions  in  the  .North- West  Territories  upon  ipiestions  of  fdfct,  exce]it 
that  it  is  hardly  accurate  to  say  that  the  court  will  not  undertake  to  determine  on   whii 
side  is  the  weight  of  evidence,   bilt  only  if  there  is  evidence  to  go  to  the  Jury.      T^     , 
hardly  applies  in  a  ease  like  the  ptesent.     The  presumption  of  law  is  that  the  prisoi.  i- 
is,  and  was,  sane.      The  burden  of,  proof  of  insanity  is  upon   the  defence.      MrXitijhteii.^ 
case,  10  CI.  i'  Fin.  204  ;  lieijiiin  \t  Jituki-it,  3  C.  it  K.  li^.')  ;  Jifii'ma  v.  Lai/lan,  i  Oo.\  C.  C. 
149.      Without  evidence  to  go  t6  the  jury,   the  prisoner  cannot  be  acquitted  upon  the 
plea  of  insanity.      If  there  is  in  such  a  case  to  be  any  appeal  after  a  conviction,  it  must 
-    be  on  the  ground  that  the  evidence  is  so  overv^helining  in  favor  of  the  insanity  of  the 
prisoner  .that  the  court  will  feel  that  there  has  been  a  miscarriage  of  justice — that  apoor,  i 
deluded,  irresponsible  being  lias  been  adjuclged  guilty  "of  that  of  which  he  could  not  be  ( 
guilty  if  he  were  deprived  of  the  power  to  reason  upon  the  act  complained  oi,  to  deter- A 
mine  by  reason  if  it  w^  right  or  wrong. 

Certainly,  a  new  trial  should  not  be  granted  if  the  evidence  were  such  that  the  jurj 


5 


1 


•        ..  *  197 

I 

juld  reasonably  convict  or  ac<|uit.     Mr.  Leiiiieux  laid  great  stress  uihmi  the  fact  that 

/   j!.he  jury  aceompcanied  tlieir  verdict  with  a  reconiniendation  to  mercy,  as  sliowing  that 

/   /they  thouglit  the  prisoner  insane.     I  cannot  se(^  tliat  any  importance  can  )>e  attached  to 

/    /this.     I   liave   re.id   very  carefuHy   the  report  of  the   charge   of  the  magistrate,  and  it 

/  ap|K'ars  to  liave  hecn  so  dearly  put  that  the  jury  could  have  no  doubt  of  their  duty  iu 

/    cas<!  they  tliouglit   tiie   prisoner   insajie  when   he  counnitted  the  acts  in  ([ucstion.     They 

.'      could    not   have   listened    to   that   charge  without  understanding  fully  that  to  bring  in  a, 

I       verdict    of   guilty  was   to    declare   enipliatically  their   dislielief    in   the    insanity   of    the 

Jirisoner.      The  recommendation  may  be  accounted  for   in   many  ways   not   connected  at 

all  with  the  question  of  th<?  .sanity  of  the  prisoner.        '  \_ 

The  stijiendiary  magistrate  adopts,  in  his  charge  to  the  jury,  the  te.-,t  laid  down  in 
MiirXiiijhti'H's  case,  10  CI.  \-  F.  204.  Although  this  rule  was  laid  down  by  the  leading 
■  1  judges  of  England,  at  the  time,  to  the  House  of  hord.s,  it  was  not  .so  dcaie  in  any  parti- 
cular case  which  was  before  that  tribunal  for  adjudication,  and  it  could  hardly  be 
considered  as  a  decision  absolutely  binding  upon  any  couri.  I  should  consider  this 
court  fully  justified  in  departing  from  it,  if  good  ground  were  shown  therefor,  or,  if,  even 
without  arguuient  of  coun.sel  against  it,  it  appeared  to  the  court  it.self  to  be  improper'as 
applied  to  the  facts  of  a  particular  case.  In  the  pre.sent  instance,  counsel  for  flie  pri- 
souer  do  not  attehii)t  to  impugn  the  propriet)-  of  the  rule,  and  in  my  opinion  they  could 
not  suof^ssfully  do  so.  It  has  never,  .so,far  as  I  can  find,  been  overruled,  though  it  may 
to  somi"  extent  have  l)een  (lucstioui-d.  This  rule  is,  that  "  notwithstanding  the  party  did 
the  actVomplained  of  with  a  view,  under  the  influence  of  insane  delusion,  of  rcdnssing 
or  rtivengiiig  some  supjio.sed  grievance  or  inj\iry,  or  of  producing  some  public  benetit,  he 
is  nivert-heless  jninishable  accoiding  to  tlie  nature  of  the  crime  committed,  if  he  knew  at 
the  time  of  committing  such  crime  that  he  acted  contrary  to  law.' 

Mr.  Justice  ilaule,  on  the  same  occasion,  |iuts  it  tjius  :  '•  To  render  a  ]ieison  irres- 
ponsible for  crime  on  account  of  unsoundness  of  mind,  the  unsoundness  should,  according 
to  the  law  as  it  has  long  bec^n  understood  and  held,  be  such  asi  renderetl  hiin  inca{>able 
of  knowing  right  from  wrong.  " 

The  argument    for    the   insanity    of    the   prisoner  is  leased  to  a  certain  extent  on  the 

idea  that  he  was  in  such  a  state  of  mind  that  he  did  not  know  that  the  acts  he  was  coni- 

■    mitting  were^  rong  :  that    lie  fancied  him.self  inspired  of  Hea\  en,  and  acting  under  the 

direction  of  Heaven,  and   in   a    holy  c-ause.      It  would  be  exceedingly  dangerous  to  a<lmit 

the  validity  of  such  an  argument    fi>r  adjudging  an   accused   person   insane,   partiiularly 

wlitire  the  oilcm-e  charged  is  of  such  a  nature  as  that  of  which  this  prisoner  i.s  idon\icted. 

A  nnvii  who    leads    an    aruied    insurrection   tloes  so  fpun-  a   desire  for   murdtr,  rapine, 

robliery,  or  for  jiersonal  gain   <.r  advantage  of  some  kind,  or  he  does  so  in  the  belief  that 

Jie  has    a    righteous  cause,    grievances  which    he    is    entitled    to    take   r.p    arms  to  have 

edressed.      In  the  latter  case,  if  sincere,Mie  believes  it  to  be  right  to  ilo  so,  that  tlie  law 

'■  (!o»l  permits,  may,  even  calls  uiion  liini,  to  do.  so,  and  to  ad  judge  a  man  insane  Qiii  that 

.  round.  Would  lie  to  ojien  the  door  to  an  ac(|uittal  in  every  c-ase  in  which  a  nuui  with  au 

<ini'St  belief  iu  his  wrongs,  and  that  they  were  sutticiently  grievous  to  Warrant  any  m«an.S 

■^.secure  their  redress,  should   take  U]i  arms  against   the  con..5titui<d  authorities  of'  the 

;id.     His  action  was  «xceedingly  rash  and  foolhardy,  but  he  reasoned  that  he  could 

*"yieve  a  sufficient  success  to  extort  something  from   the  ( iovernnient,  whether  for  him- 

*^'''  or  his  followers.      His  actions  were  based  oi;  reason  and  not  on  insane  delusion. 

^*''  It  is  true  that  there  were  sonie  medical  o)iinions  that  the  prisoner  was  insane,  based 

'"'i  an  account  of  his  actions  and   his  previous  history,  but  the  jury  were  not  bound  to 

pt  sneh  opinions.     The  jury  had   to   listen  to  the  grounds  for  the.se  opinion.s,  and  to 

form    their    own   judgment  upon  them.      In  my  opinion,  the  evideiwe  was  such  that  the 

jury  would  not  have  been  justified   in  any  verdict  than  that  which  they  gave  ;  but  even 

if  it  I>e  admitted   that   they  might  reasonably  harve   found  in  favor  of  the  insanity  of  the 

Jirisoner,  it  cannot  be  said  that  they  could  not  reasonably  find  him  sane. 

I  hesitate  to  add  anytliing  to  the  remarks  of  my  brother  Taylor  upon  the  evidence 
■on  the  tjuestion  of  insanity.  I  have  read  over  very  carefully  all  the  evidence  that  was 
laid  before  the  jury,  and  I  could  say  nothing  that  would  more  fully  express  the  opiuicns 


-\ 


t 


198 


vil. 


1  have  formed   frqiii   its  perusal  than  wliat.  is  expressed  by  him. ,  .  I  'aumi-e  witli  liiiii  ah   ^^ 
in  sayin}(-.that  tlii-  prisoner  has  heen   ahly  and   zealously  dpfendp<l,  and  tlilvt  notliinf;  tlia  t,^ 
.  could  a/isist  his  Case  appears  toJiive  been    left    untouclied.      If  I  eon  1(1  ia#6  any  reason  ton, 
;  l)«lieve  Ntli^t    the   jury,  whether    from    passion    or    pi-ejudiye,  or  otherwise,  had  decided 'e 
-  against  the  wei;rlit  of  tlie  evidence  u])on   the   piisoner's   insanity,  I    should  desire  to  tind    n 
.    that  the  Court  lould    so  intci-pi-et  the  statute  as  to  lie  justified  in  causiin,'  the  ease  to  bo    u 
laid  befoi'e  another  juiy  for  their,  eonsideration,  as  the  only  feelinf;s  wi-  can  have  towards 
a  fellow  creatiuy  will)  lias  been  deprived  of  the  reason  which   places  us  iibove  the   brutes, 
are  sincere  pity  and  a  desire  to  have  some  attempt  made  to  r<-storf  him  to  the  full  enjoy- 
ment of  a  souiid  mind.  •? 
The  pris<jner  is  e.\  idciilly  a  man  of  moi>p  than  ordinary   intelli;,'iMii(',  who  could  have  i- 
been  of  great  service    to    those   l!»f    his    race  rn  this  country  :  and  if  he  wen'  insane,    the  > 
greate^^t  service  that  tould  be  rendered   to   the   country  would  be.  that  he  should,  if  [mis-  d  , 
sibje,  be  restored  to  that   condition   of  mind  which   would,  enable  hinf  to  use  his  mental  e 
powers  and  his  educati<ni  to  assist   in    iiromotin;;  the  interests  of  that   im|iortant  class  in   3 
the  community  t')  whii'h  lie  bcji)ii;,'s.    It  is  with  the  deepest  regret  that    I   recognize  that    ( 
,   ^the  acts  char.v>ed  wi-re  comn'itted  wkhout  any  such  justification,  and  that  this  t'ourt  can- 
not in  any  way  be  justified  in  interfering.                                                 , 

In  my  judgment,  the  conviction  must  be  confirmed.,  , 


/ 


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v., 


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■y   ,f 


wh; 


>risoi,.-r 
(Kjliteu'ii 


Nc 
klai<( 
fig  of 

f.vcept      ' 


-I 


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r 


APPEAL   TO   THE  PRIA  Y  COUNCIL. 

p.  ('.  No.  1743. 

CEltTI FIED   copy  of  a   ri>port  of  a    Coinudttei'   of  tfir  llonoridili'   the    Privy  Couiu'ily 
approved  by  Ilia  ExeelUitcy  the  d'orermir  (jeueral  hi  Conncil.  on  lh>'  2'i(h  Sfpt.  18S5. 


Thp  foniniittec  of  tlie  Privy  Council  iiave  had  uiuU-r  consideration  a  petition  from  — - 
Louis  Rid,  now  undi-r  sentence  of  death  at  Regina,  in  the  North-West  Territories  of 
Canada,  tliroui;li  his  counsel,  Messrs.  Leiiiieux  and  Fitzjiatrick,  uskiii);  that  such  steps 
nuiy  he  adopted  hy  the  (lovernor  (ieneral  in  Council  as  will  allow  him  the  necessary  time 
tfi  procure  an  appeal  to  the  Quettu's  Most  Kxceilent  Majesty  in  Council  from  the  senteivce 
aiid  judgment  rendered  in  his  case  at  Reiiina. 

The  Minister  of  Justice  to  whom  tlie  petition  was  inferred  foi-  immediate  action, 
reports  with  ivsjiect  to  the  a]i]>lication  for  delay  in  order  to  allow  the  prisonei:  time  to 
appeal  to  the  Privy  Council,  that  the  Maj;istrate  has  ])osti«oned  the  execution  until  the 
16tli  of  ( )ctol)er,  and  he  .recommends  that  Yoilr  Kxcellency  l)e  moved-  to  comiuunicate 
with  the  Ri;;ht  Honoralile  the  Principal  Secretary  of  State  for  the  Colonies  with  a  view,  if 
possilile,  to  secure  an  early  meeting  of  the  Judicial  Comiiiittee  of  the  Privy  Council  iii 
order  that  the  (piestion  as  to  whether  leave  to  appeal  in  this  matter,  will  lie  granted  or 
not.  shall  he  determined  at  the  earliest  po.ssil>le  time.  _  . 

The  Connnittee  concur  in  the  above  recoiuineudation  of  the  ^liuister  of  Justice,  ajul 
they  submit  the  same  for  approval. 

(Sijyied)  John  J.  Mc(4ke. 

,  '  C'-rk,  Privy  C{'uneil. 


P 

go 

oh; 


IN  THE  PRIVY  COINCIL. 

Ill  appeal  from  the  Court  of  Queen's  Pencil  for  the  Province  of  Manitoba, 

l)<iminion  of  Canada. 


Lolls  PuKi., 

imd  , 
The  QiKKX, 


coif  Queen's  Most  Excellent  Majesty  in  Council. 


Appulhint. 


Nf.sjiiindent. 


''""He  humble  jietition  of  Louis  liiel  sheweth,  as  follows  : —  _ 

^^'•'t.   On  the  JOth,  -.'Ist,  lil'nd,  L':?rd,  iMtli  and  L'5th  days  of  July  last,  your  [>etitioner 
liavc^d  f,„.  ^\^^,  (.,-ii„f,   of  tresison   Itefore  a  stipendiary  magistrate  and  a   justice  of  the 
,  A'itli  the  intervention  ofvi  jury  of  six  persons  in  the  North-West  Territor1<;s_of  the 
Doiiiinion  of  Canada,  and  having  l)eeu  f<miid  guilty  has  been  sentenced  to  death. 

2nd.   \our  petitioner  caused  ail  appeal  to  be  taken  to  the  court  of  Queen's  Beiieh 
for  the  Province  of  Manitoba,  and  that  cixirt  lias'coiifirmed  the  sentence  afoij^said. 

3rd.    Your  petitioner  feels  aggrieved    by  the  proceedings  of  the  said  courts  for  the 
following,  amongst  other  reasons  : 

1st.   The  said   stipendiary   maj^istrate  and  justice  had  no  jurisdiction  to  try  Your 
petitioner  for  the  crime'  aforesaid. 

2iid.   If  they  liad  jurisdiction  in  any  case  of  treason,  there  was  not  in  tlie  case  of  your 


\ 


t 


200  -  t,a« 

.        •  ■  ^  .  .  ;         .       •••jt 

■  petitiout  r,  any   indictineiit   preferred  by  any  grand  jury  or  inquisition  fbund   liy  an>,. 

coroner's  inquest  aj^ainst  your  petitioner.  t  5  > 

,    ;$rd.    An  information  was  laid  aj,'ainst  your  pctitio^xer,  but  even  if  a  niei'fl  inforniatioi) 

was   rtutficient,  that    in   tlic  case   of   your  petitio'ner   was   taken  V>efore   tlie  stipendiary 

magistrate  alone  wlio  had  no  jurisdiction  at  all. 

4th.  Tlie  evidence  at  the, trial  was  not  taken  down  by.  tlie  stipendiary  mnftistrate, 
and  by  hini.c.iuKed  to  be  taken  down  in  writinj;,  as  directed  l>y  tlie  Statute  in  that  behalf. 

T'th.  t'pon  the  a])peaf  to  the  Court  of  (^ut-en'.s;  ISencli,  your  )M'titioner  was  not  per- 
mitted to  be  present  nor  were  any  of  tlie  jiajM-rs  nr  the  record  projierly  before  the  Court. 

tkh.  The  trial  of  your  petinoner  and  the  cilt-unistances  out  of  which  it  arose  art?  „ 
deemed  by  the  people'  of  Caniula  to  lie  matters  of  no  ordinary  iin|)ortance,  have  divided 
the  population  into  two  opposinji  jiartii-s,  and  it  is  essential  not 'only  upon  these  ^{rounds, 
but  also  from  the  fact  tiiat  a  latue  ninnl.er  of  trials  urisinj^  ojit  of  the.same  circumstances 
are  being  had  Ijefore  tlie  same  functionaries  that  the,  question  rai.sed  liy.this  petition 
should  be  ailjiidiiated  an<l  settled.  -  ■  \ 

•    .  The  iietitioner  must  tlieiet'nre  pray  :  .  ^  . 

1st.  .That  ^  our  .Majesty  will  be  j^racioiisly  plen.sed  to  order  that  your  p^til^iiner  may 
have  special  lea\e  to  ai)|icMl~iind  be  at  libei'ty  to'  enter  and  prosecute  liis  up|)eal  from  the 
aforesaid  .sentence. and  judgment  respectively,  and  that  the  said  stipeiuliary  magistrate 
and  j  ustiee  may  bejordered  to  transmit  forthwith  the  transcript  of  t fie  proceedings  and 
evidence  in  the  matter  to  the  Privy  Council  olhc<'.  or  tliat  Your  .Majesty  may  Iiegiaciou.sly 


)th 


]>leaspd  to  make  such  further  or 
just  and  proper 

And  your  petitioner  will  exer  ] 


Quebec,  Se])t<-liiber  lllli,   lS>.'l. 
Title  copy. 

*    Cms.  FiT/.p.\TRn  kJ 


to  \, 


Majesty  in  Ciuincil  may  apjiear 


Ac, 


(Signed) 


F.  X    Lkmikiy^v 

ClIS.    FiTZI'.VTUirK. 


Krt.  24:5. 


(COPY)       ' 

C.VN.Ml.V. 
COLOXKL  STAXLEV  TO  TMK  DKI'fTV-i.oVKUNoli. 


Downing  Street. 

.  '      ■  ■1\\\\  October,  iff 

Sln,T— With  reference  to  my  telegr.iiii  iVf  the  "jL'nd  iii.'.tant,  I  have  the  lidiinr  tor' 

mit  to  you  t!ie  aecompanying  cnpies  of  the  jiidgineiit  of  the  Lorrls  of  the  judicial  cif''- 

tae  of  the  Pii\y  Council,  on  the  jietition  for  leave  in  iqipeal  of  I/iuis  Uit-l.  r*' 


I  ha\e,  itc. 


Tlie  Deputy-)  iovernor. 


(Signed,)  Jioiii;iiT  (1.   \\'.   IIkkui'J')  ' 

■     'A      ■■  feh's 


C 


Judgment  of  the  Lords  of  the  Judicial  coiniiiittee  of  (he  Privy   Council   on   ,.. 
ti>n^of  Louis  Kiel,  from  tlie  Court  of  (/ueeirs  liencli  for  the  Pro\  ince  of  Manitoba. 

Prksent :  ' 

'    The  Lord  Chancellor. 
1    .  ■      .    .  Lortl  Fitzgerald; 

Lord  Monkswell. 
~  Lord  Holiliou.se. 

(     .  Lord  Hsher. 

Sir  Barnes  Pea{;o<!k".     ' 


r- 

201 

d  in , 
Territories  of  Canada,  and  convicted  of  liigJf  treason,  and  sentenced  to  death,  for  leave 


Tliis  is  a  petition  of  Louis  Riel,  tried  in /July  last  at  Regina,  in  tlie  North-West 

licH  treaso 


^to  appeal  a-jainst  an  order  of  the  Queen's  Bench  of  Manitolia,  confirming  that  conviction. 

It'is  t4ie  usual  rule  of  this  committee  not  to  grant  leave  to  appeal  in  criminal  cas^, 
except  where  some  clear,  departure  from  the  rcrjuirements  of  justice  is  alleged  to  have 
taken  place.  Wliether  in  this  case  the  prerogatives  to  grant  an  ap]>eal  still  exists,  as 
their  Lordships  have  not  heard  that  (juestion  argued,  they  desire  neitliertD  attinu  nor  to 
denj',  hut  they  are  clearly  of  0]>iiiion  that  in  this  case  leave  should  not  he  given. 

The  petitioner  was  tried  under  the  provisions  of  an  Act  passed  hy  the  Canadian  Legis- 
lature, jiroviding  for  (lie  adniinisti'ation  of  criminal  justice  for  those  j)ortions  of  the  Xorth- 
West  Territory  of  Canaihi,  in  whidi  the  offence  charged  against  the  petitioner  is  alleged 
to  have  heen  committed.  No  ipiestions  has  lieen  raised  that  the  facts  as  alleged  were  not 
■  proved  to  have  taken  place,  nor  was  it  denied  Ix^fove  tlie  original  triliunal,  or  hefore  the 
Court  of  .•\j>peal  in  Manitolia,  that  the  acts  attrihuted  to  the  petitioner  amounted  to  the 
crime  of  high  treason.  '  ,  . 

The  defence  upon  The  facts  sought  fo  he  e.stablislied  before  the  jury  was,  that  the 
petitioner  was  not  responsihie  for  his  acts  hy  reasou  of  mental  infirmity. 

The  jury  hefore  whom  the  petitioner  was  tried  negatived  that  defence,  aiid  no  argu- 
uientLhas  heen  )>resented  to  their  Lordships  directed  to  .sliow  that  that  finding  was  other- 
wise Hmibcon^^et.  Oi  the  ohjections  raised  on  the.  face  of  the  petition  two  points  only 
seem  toTie  capahle  of  jilausihle  or,  indeed,  iutelligilite  expression,  and  they  have  heen 
urged  hefoie  their  Lordshi])s  with  as  mucliTTirce  as  was  possible,  and  as  fully  and  com- 
j)letely  in  their  Lonlshiji's  o]iiiii<iu  as  it  would  have  heen  if  lea\e  to  appeal  had  l)een 
'granted,  and  ihey  have  Keen  dealt  with  hy  the  judgments  of  the  Court  of  Ajipeal  in 
Manitoba  with  a  patience,  learning  and  ability  that  leaves  \  ery  little  to  bt^  said  upon 
them. 

The  first  point  is  tliat^he  Act  itself  under  which  the  petitioner  was  tried  was  ulfra 
>ri/vj<  the  Dominion  Parliament  to  enact.  That  I'arliament  derived  its  authority  for  the 
jMlssing  of  that  statute  from  the  Imperial  Statute,  M  and  :?.t  Vic.  Chap.  2S,  whicl 
enacted  that  tlie  Parliament  of  Canada  may  from  time  to  tiine  make  provision  for  the 
administration,  peace,  oi'der,  and  good  government  of  any  territory  not  for  the  time 
being  inchiiled  in  any  province. 

It  is  not  deiii«l  that  the  ]ilace  in  ijuestion  was'  one  in  respect  of  which  the  Parlia- 
ment of  Canada  was  authorized  to  make  such   provision,  but  it  appears  to  be  suggcstetU, 
\tliat,any  provision  ditl'crring  from  tlie  provisions  which  in  this  country  have  been  ijiade 
fm-  admini.L  peai-e,    order   an<l   good   governi'nent   canuiU,   as  matters  of  law,   be 

provisions  for  peaci-,  order  and  good  goveiiiinent  in  the  territories  to  which  the  Statute 
relates,  and  further  that,  if  a  (.'ourt  of  law  shoidil  conit^  to  the  conclusion  that  a  (larticular 
enaV-tmenty  was  not  calculated  as  matter  of  fact  and  policy  to  .secure  |it!ace,  Order,  and 
gtx)(l  goverinae.nt,  thut  tliev  would  be  entitled  to  regard  any  Statute  directed  to  those 
'objects,  liut  which  a  Court  should  think  likely  to  fail  of  tliat  pSeet,  as  iiftni  rir-ei  and 
U'Vontl  tlie  competency  ot'the  Dominion  Parliament  to  enact. 

■  'i'lieir  Loiilsliiiis  are  of  ojiinion  that  there  is  not  <lie  least  colour  for  such  a 
contention.  "  The  words  of  the  Statute  are  apt  to  authorize  the  utmost  discretion  of 
enactment  for  the  attainment  of  the  objects  pointed  to.  Theyaie  words  under  which  the 
widest  de.parture  from  Criminal  proceduiv  as  it  is  fctiown  and  practised  in  this  country 
have  been  authorized  in  Her  ^Majesty's  Indian  Empire. 

Forms  of  procedure  unknown  to  the  Knglish  common  laws  have  there  been  esta- 
'  blished  and  acted  u)>oii,  and  to  throw  the  least  doubt  upon  the  validity  of  jxiwers  con- 
veyed by  those  words  would  be  of  widely  mischievous  consecjuence.  , 

There  was  indjbed  a  contention  upon  the  construction  of  the  Canadian  Statute,  43 
Vict.,  Cliaj).  'Iri,  tliat  liigli  ti-eason  was  not  included  in  the  words  :  '•  any  other  crimes," 
Imt  it  is  too  ilear  for  argument,  even  without  the  assistance  afibrded  by  the  10th  sub- 
section, that  the  Dominion  Legislature  contemplated  high  treason  as  •  couiprel\gaded 
within  the  langiiage  employed. 

The  second  point  suggested  assumes  the  validity  of  the  Act,  but  is  founded  upon  the 

.4.. 


\/ 


202 

3i8.suinption  that  the  Act  has  not  been  complied  with.  -By  the  7th  sub-section  of  the  7<tth^ 
section  it  is  provi<le(*that  tlie  magistrate  shall  take  or  cause  tojue  tiiken  in  writing  full 
notes  of  evidence  and  other  proceodiuf^s  thereat,  and  it  is  sugj^ested  that  this  provision 
haus  not  been  complied  with,  l)ecause  tliouj^h  no  complaint  is  made  of  inaccuracy  or  mis- 
take, it  is  said  that  the  notes  were  taken  by  a  shorthand  writer  under  the  authoi-ity  of 
the  magistniite,  an.<l  liy  a  subsequent  process  extended  int"K  ordinary  writinf;  intelligible, 
to  all.  Their  Lordships  desire  to  expres.s  no  opinjon  what  would  have  been  the  effect  if 
the  provision  of  the  statute  had  not  been  eom]>lied  with,  liecau.se  it  is  unnecessary  to  con- 
sider whether  the  provision  is  directory  only,  or  whether  the  failure  to  comply  with  it 
would  be  ground  for  error,  inasmuch  as  they  are  of  opinion  that  the  taking  full  notes  of 
the  evidence  in  shorthand  was  a  causing  to  be  taken  in  writing  full  notes  of  the  evidence, 
md  a  literal  compliance  therefore  with  the  Statute,  _^-^ 

^     Tlieir  Lordshiji's  will,  therefore,  humbly  advise  Her  Majesty  that  leave  should  not 
be  granted  to  prosecute  this  appeal. 


tO|» 

J, 
I 


•I. 


■K 


■4 


i 


PETITION   FOR   A   MEDICAL   COMMISSION. 

T.  C.  2020.  •  .  • 

[Trnii>ihili(iii\  .  ^'    '  '  _, 

TO  HIS  EXCELLENCY  ■  , 

The    KI.M.T    H0N0H.U.LE    HKNKV     carles    KEITII      PETTY-FITZMArRICE,    MARQCIS    OP 
LASSnOWXK,   (10VERN0R-«;ESEUAI.  of  THE   DOMINION  OF  CANADA,  iVC;  XC,  .kC. 

Tli<- P.'titioii  of  F.  X.  Lfiiiicux.  ■idvo.iitc,  of  tlift  fity  of  Quclx'C,  , 

HuliiUv  icpri'seiiJs  ; 

L  •     ■  .  '  • 

That  lu-  lu.s  acted  as  one  of  tl.e  Counsel  of  LouLs  Kiel,  accused  and  convicted  ot  the 
crime  of  lii-di  treason,  at  Re>;inii,  duiiiii?  tlie  <»urse  of  the  month  of  Au!,'ust  hist  ; 

That  at  the  time  of  the  trial  of  L,.uis   Kiel  it  was  estal.lished   that   the  latter  l.ad 
already  l.een   contine.l    f.n-  insanity   in   certain   lunatic   asylums   viz  ;    '"   l--"-t.  "'*';;*• 
LonKue-Pointe  asylum,  at  M.mtreal  in    ISTfi,  at  the  Beaiyort   asylun,,  t.»uel.ec   m  1^..», 
inahiiiatic  asvluin  at  Washington,  I'nited  States.  .      ,    .        ,    i..  i   ...„i 

That  credil.le  witnesses,  amongst  whom  Uevd.  Fathers  Vn.lre  -"'I'to"'''';""''  '""» 
Hon.  C>rles  N^lin,  and  others,  have  proved,  at  the  trial,  that  Louis  R.el,  I'-c  ;eto.^ 
du.-l»6  and  =.ft..r  th«    rising  in   the  Xorth-West.  to  their  own  kuowled-e,  «'^';"  ^"''"/^,  »' 

truly      lJt^lc^i^-«5^^     tlia-t      K.t«sl     wtt«     ikot     r«!Si>€>i»«il*le      for     Uii*     M.otic>i»s     tlui-inf?     *"»     ttiii«     .».li-ea.rty 


tn«l       C,'l«